d3v Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Not a huge issue for a fighter designed for space flight... It's still not a very good precedent to set and I'm sure the air boss wont be too impressed. Besides, if it's a VF-0, then chances are the front intake covers will be open drenching that engine.
Mr March Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Been through some discussions and pouring over footage from Macross Frontier to come up with a reasonably accurate missile count for the VF-25S Messiah Full Armor. There are inconsistencies between episode 2 and episode 7, but I've gone with episode 7 simply because the Full Armor variant was presented clearly and uniformly in the big attack sequence by Ozuma. VF-25S Full Armor Chest and Shoulder Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Leg Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers 16 x micro-missiles per leg launcher (with two launchers per leg) 20 x micro-missiles per chest launcher (total of two launchers in the chest) 40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder) 15 x micro-missiles per outboard hatchless launcher (one per wing) 64 x micro-missiles in total for the legs 40 x micro-missiles in the chest 80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders 30 x micro-missiles on the outer wing sections Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely a new record for a Macross valkyrie. Previous valkyries had the following missile counts: VF-0 Phoenix Full Armor = 50 missiles + 6 grenades. VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie = 56 missiles + 18 armor-penetrating projectiles + 6 grenades. VF-11C Thunderbolt Protect Armor = 84 missiles
Bowen Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Been through some discussions and pouring over footage from Macross Frontier to come up with a reasonably accurate missile count for the VF-25S Messiah Full Armor. There are inconsistencies between episode 2 and episode 7, but I've gone with episode 7 simply because the Full Armor variant was presented clearly and uniformly in the big attack sequence by Ozuma. VF-25S Full Armor Chest and Shoulder Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Leg Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers 16 x micro-missiles per leg launcher (with two launchers per leg) 20 x micro-missiles per chest launcher (total of two launchers in the chest) 40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder) 15 x micro-missiles per outboard hatchless launcher (one per wing) 64 x micro-missiles in total for the legs 40 x micro-missiles in the chest 80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders 30 x micro-missiles on the outer wing sections Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely a new record for a Macross valkyrie. Previous valkyries had the following missile counts: VF-0 Phoenix Full Armor = 50 missiles + 6 grenades. VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie = 56 missiles + 18 armor-penetrating projectiles + 6 grenades. VF-11C Thunderbolt Protect Armor = 84 missiles Holy cr@p, that's one frigging big Itano Circus
Zinjo Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) Holy cr@p, that's one frigging big Itano Circus It almost seems like a waste of ammo to fire them all at once. In space there is nothing stopping him from keeping the covers open and then firing successive salvos at various targets. You know the whole "Death Blossom" maneuver... Quick note to MarchusMaximux. I was browsing the MMM and noticed that the Full Barrier system would explode when overloaded. IIRC, by 2045 the system would just shut down if overloaded. I would have to double check, but I believe that ep 49 of M7, showed the Full Barrier of the City 7 beginning to fail as opposed to exploding like it did in SDFM. Just something that may need to be looked into. Edited June 18, 2008 by Zinjo
Master Dex Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Ah I never noticed those outboard missile launchers on the wings, good catch. Looks like our count without the wing missiles at 184 or so remains correct as far as it seems, good to see those screen shots I got you were helpful.
Mr March Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Zinwobbly It depends on the combat conditions. In Macross Frontier, it appears Ozuma used his full missile load to it's utmost advantage with a total ordnance launch. In Macross 7, Kinryu's VF-11 Protect Armor launch devastated an entire squad of Varauta. On the other hand some examples like like Hikaru's VF-1J Armored Valkyrie fight or Roy's VF-0S Reactive Armor Valkyrie launch weren't all that effective despite their impressive fireworks I just watched episode 49 over again and City 7 isn't shown with a barrier. Mylene in her VF-11MAXL Custom Sound Booster is shown creating a sound energy shield around City 7, but that's all. There is dialog in the early part of episode 49 that mentions the decreasing power of the pin-point barriers on the Battle 7, but no mention of the Full Barrier. I pretty much have to stick to what is shown in the anime until some example changes it. I'd like to believe that when the newer Full Barrier systems yield they don't lead to a catastrophic overload. But until a Macross anime features a scene to the contrary, we have to assume the two instances of the barrier overload from SDF Macross are still indicative of the Full Barrier system. Just to note, perhaps the danger of the Full Barrier system is why we never see it in operation. Master Dex They were indeed very useful. I'd initially forgotten about the outboard launchers as well, but it looks like we've reached a final count. Impressive to say the least.
Sumdumgai Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 So is that a full barrier we see deployed in episode 7 of Macross Frontier? When that vajra gunship blasts a large asteroid and the Macross Quarter comes flying through the debris enveloped by some kind of energy barrier.
info600 Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 question: was there any micro missiles in the COVERED section of the boosters? VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers ...ya, im too lazy to photoshop today
grss1982 Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) Been through some discussions and pouring over footage from Macross Frontier to come up with a reasonably accurate missile count for the VF-25S Messiah Full Armor. There are inconsistencies between episode 2 and episode 7, but I've gone with episode 7 simply because the Full Armor variant was presented clearly and uniformly in the big attack sequence by Ozuma. VF-25S Full Armor Chest and Shoulder Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Leg Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers 16 x micro-missiles per leg launcher (with two launchers per leg) 20 x micro-missiles per chest launcher (total of two launchers in the chest) 40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder) 15 x micro-missiles per outboard hatchless launcher (one per wing) 64 x micro-missiles in total for the legs 40 x micro-missiles in the chest 80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders 30 x micro-missiles on the outer wing sections Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely a new record for a Macross valkyrie. Previous valkyries had the following missile counts: VF-0 Phoenix Full Armor = 50 missiles + 6 grenades. VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie = 56 missiles + 18 armor-penetrating projectiles + 6 grenades. VF-11C Thunderbolt Protect Armor = 84 missiles Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely one huge load out for the VF-25. An Itano Circus of Orgasmic Proportions. BTW, in comparison how much missiles do the Super Pack have? Edited June 19, 2008 by grss1982
Mr March Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Sumdumgai It looked like some kind of barrier. It didn't show very much, so it's hard to say. It could have been a pin-point barrier, but using a large sheath that covered the whole bridge rather than just a portion or it could have been a hull hugging Full Barrier. Hard to say. grss1982 Hehhee, I'm afraid a Super pack count isn't gonna be that easy. Too many internal launchers. I eagerly await statistics
Morpheus Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Been through some discussions and pouring over footage from Macross Frontier to come up with a reasonably accurate missile count for the VF-25S Messiah Full Armor. There are inconsistencies between episode 2 and episode 7, but I've gone with episode 7 simply because the Full Armor variant was presented clearly and uniformly in the big attack sequence by Ozuma. VF-25S Full Armor Chest and Shoulder Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Leg Launchers VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers 16 x micro-missiles per leg launcher (with two launchers per leg) 20 x micro-missiles per chest launcher (total of two launchers in the chest) 40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder) 15 x micro-missiles per outboard hatchless launcher (one per wing) 64 x micro-missiles in total for the legs 40 x micro-missiles in the chest 80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders 30 x micro-missiles on the outer wing sections Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely a new record for a Macross valkyrie. Previous valkyries had the following missile counts: VF-0 Phoenix Full Armor = 50 missiles + 6 grenades. VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie = 56 missiles + 18 armor-penetrating projectiles + 6 grenades. VF-11C Thunderbolt Protect Armor = 84 missiles You sure those are missile launchers? My eyes are telling me that those are frickin fridges stuffed with beers VF-25s FA is sure pack some firepower there, including those beam cannons. What about those two tubes sticking under the shoulder armor in fighter mode? Are those launchers or another beam cannon?
d3v Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load. That's definitely one huge load out for the VF-25. An Itano Circus of Orgasmic Proportions. BTW, in comparison how much missiles do the Super Pack have? Hmm, using March's figures and taking out what the super pack doesn't have. 40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder) giving us at the very least 80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders Meaning the Super Pack gives it more missiles than a VF-0 or VF-1 in full armor and possibly even more missiles than a VF-11 in Protect Armor considering that there may be more missiles stored elsewhere. Edited June 19, 2008 by d3v
grss1982 Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 You sure those are missile launchers? My eyes are telling me that those are frickin fridges stuffed with beers VF-25s FA is sure pack some firepower there, including those beam cannons. What about those two tubes sticking under the shoulder armor in fighter mode? Are those launchers or another beam cannon? You mean the ones encircled, right? http://i31.tinypic.com/2928ies.png IMHO, they look like the exit ports for the wing root guns/lasers, I guess. Maybe Graham can shed more light on them.
d3v Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 With 214 missiles, I've been wondering, did Ozma really blow his full load (pardon the pun) during that scene in episode 7, or did he have a good number in reserve?
Mr March Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 d3v Hey, that's pretty good deduction. Not bad at all. Now if we can only learn how many missiles are inside the outboard boosters, we'd be set for a missile count on the VF-25 Super. Regarding Ozuma's load (*evil grin*), I only counted 10 missiles launched from each leg launcher. It's possible more could have been launched offscreen, but if not, that would still leave 22 missiles remaining per leg. Morpheus I'm not sure. I don't think we've been privy to seeing those particular guns in action as yet. I made up a highlighted version of the VF-25S Full Armor that shows even more weapons (note the under arm lauchers, which I believe someone here already mentioned a couple posts back): I'd like to get a breakdown of all those guns and missiles
Zinjo Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Makes me wonder if the new gunpod is simply a return to the 55mm shells the GU-11 used. The gun is far more powerful than previous series and we know that they lowered the caliber in subsequent gunpods after SW-1...
d3v Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) Makes me wonder if the new gunpod is simply a return to the 55mm shells the GU-11 used. The gun is far more powerful than previous series and we know that they lowered the caliber in subsequent gunpods after SW-1... Hmm, possible, however one visual clue we could use is the size of the gunpod. The GU-11 was limited to three barrels by the size of the the rounds. I'm more inclined to think that it's in the 35mm range similar to the GU-9. Although we'll need to compare both guns, or wait for official specs. Off course, we may never know as I don't think they ever released specs for round size for later the VF-17 onwards (though I'm inclined to think that those are 30mm similar to the VF-11 since I figure they'd have them standardized). Edited June 19, 2008 by d3v
Mr March Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 I think the new VF-25 Messiah gun pod is likely a 30 mm, but it could very well be 35mm or even a 25 mm. It definitely appears to be a smaller gun (diameter) than the old GU-11 gun pod. Gun pod caliburs are somewhat scarce in Macross. We only know the following: VF-0 Phoenix GPU-9 35mm gun pod (with 550 rounds). SV-51 Gsh-371 55mm gun pod (with 120 rounds) VF-1 Valkyrie GU-11 55mm gun pod (with 200 rounds) VA-3 Invader GA-22 60mm multi-purpose gatling gun pod (capacity unknown) VF-11 Thunderbolt standard 30mm 6-barrel gun pod (large barrel magazine, capacity unknown) As d3v has said, that's pretty much all we know. The gun pod caliburs for the VF-3000 Star Mirage, VF-5000 Crusader, YF-19/VF-19Excalibur, the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II, the VF-17 Nightmare and currently the VF-25 Messiah are all unknown. We also don't know the caliburs of any of the specialty gun pods, like the XS-06 long-range high-piercing-round gun pod for the VF-11C Protect Armor or the sniper rifle for the VF-25G Messiah. I think the firepower of the gun pods is most likely driven by muzzle velocity and shell technology. As time goes forward, the Valkyries become better armored and the more powerful engines means more power for the Energy Converting Armor. And as has been noted already, the standard mass produced gun pod has become smaller, yet more devastating as time goes on. In Macross Frontier, the dialog specifically mentions Anti-ESS Shells that are loaded to increase the penetrating power against the heavily armored Vajra units.
Zinjo Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) I think the new VF-25 Messiah gun pod is likely a 30 mm, but it could very well be 35mm or even a 25 mm. It definitely appears to be a smaller gun (diameter) than the old GU-11 gun pod. Gun pod caliburs are somewhat scarce in Macross. We only know the following: VF-0 Phoenix GPU-9 35mm gun pod (with 550 rounds). SV-51 Gsh-371 55mm gun pod (with 120 rounds) VF-1 Valkyrie GU-11 55mm gun pod (with 200 rounds) VA-3 Invader GA-22 60mm multi-purpose gatling gun pod (capacity unknown) VF-11 Thunderbolt standard 30mm 6-barrel gun pod (large barrel magazine, capacity unknown) As d3v has said, that's pretty much all we know. The gun pod caliburs for the VF-3000 Star Mirage, VF-5000 Crusader, YF-19/VF-19Excalibur, the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II, the VF-17 Nightmare and currently the VF-25 Messiah are all unknown. We also don't know the caliburs of any of the specialty gun pods, like the XS-06 long-range high-piercing-round gun pod for the VF-11C Protect Armor or the sniper rifle for the VF-25G Messiah. I think the firepower of the gun pods is most likely driven by muzzle velocity and shell technology. As time goes forward, the Valkyries become better armored and the more powerful engines means more power for the Energy Converting Armor. And as has been noted already, the standard mass produced gun pod has become smaller, yet more devastating as time goes on. In Macross Frontier, the dialog specifically mentions Anti-ESS Shells that are loaded to increase the penetrating power against the heavily armored Vajra units. Well I get the impression that the new gunpod has a magazine and we'd have to compare the gunpod sizes as well. The VF-1 is probably one of the smallest VF's produced, thus it's gunpod size (in relation to its battroid) may be deceptively large in comparison to the Messiah's gunpod. We might be able to extrapolate the gunpod's sizes in relation to their known battroid's heights... I won't discount a 35mm shell, but it's ability to tear up targets reminds me of the firepower of GU-11... Edited June 19, 2008 by Zinjo
Master Dex Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 I want a bigger picture of what Morpheus posted, some of that is line art I've seen before but some like the one of the leg looks new to me.
Zinjo Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 I want a bigger picture of what Morpheus posted, some of that is line art I've seen before but some like the one of the leg looks new to me. Ditto
d3v Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Something before I go to bed.... So, that panel in the leg does open up as speculated.
grss1982 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) Something before I go to bed.... We just gotta have a bigger picture of that one. Looking at the picture Mr. March provided (http://www.new-un-spacy.com/miscellaneous/vf-25-fullarmor-battroid-highlight.jpg) does anybody think that instead of extra armor for the shield wouldn't it have been more awesome if they installed a modified version of the YF-19's heavy weapons module seen in Mac + (Movie Version)? Edited June 20, 2008 by grss1982
azrael Posted June 20, 2008 Author Posted June 20, 2008 You mean the ones encircled, right? http://i31.tinypic.com/2928ies.png IMHO, they look like the exit ports for the wing root guns/lasers, I guess. Maybe Graham can shed more light on them. I think those 2 things are just there for the hell of it.
d3v Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Looking at the picture Mr. March provided (http://www.new-un-spacy.com/miscellaneous/vf-25-fullarmor-battroid-highlight.jpg) does anybody think that instead of extra armor for the shield wouldn't it have been more awesome if they installed a modified version of the YF-19's heavy weapons module seen in Mac + (Movie Version)? I was about to say something to the tune of people not being satisfied with all the weaponry the full armor 25 already has, then a part of my brain scolded me saying that one can never have too many guns.
Bowen Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 There's no such thing as 'overkill'. There's only 'open fire' and 'reload'
grss1982 Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I was about to say something to the tune of people not being satisfied with all the weaponry the full armor 25 already has, then a part of my brain scolded me saying that one can never have too many guns. You can never have too many guns with all those Red Lobsters lurking in space. Anyways, I just realized after editing this pic http://i31.tinypic.com/2928ies.png that the wings and the vertical stabilizer of the VF-25 are also encased in armour. So does that mean that the VF-25 with Armor Pack relies heavily on verniers for manuverability?
d3v Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) You can never have too many guns with all those Red Lobsters lurking in space. Anyways, I just realized after editing this pic http://i31.tinypic.com/2928ies.png that the wings and the vertical stabilizer of the VF-25 are also encased in armour. So does that mean that the VF-25 with Armor Pack relies heavily on verniers for manuverability? Yes, probably also means that the Full Armor's fighter mode can't be used planetside. Actually, I'm kinda hoping for a planetside super pack, like what they had for the VF-11. Edited June 20, 2008 by d3v
Legend of TSXer Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 I think those 2 things are just there for the hell of it. I believe it because you say so! Azrael has spoken!
Legend of TSXer Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 This has probably been brought up already, many episodes ago I am sure, but can the Gunpod of the VF-25 blow up a Red Lobster like it does in the opening? Or is that just animated for the opening glamour?
Mr March Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 (edited) At the end of episode 6, they stated the Valkyries were being loaded with Anti-Vajra E.S.A. munitions (Electronic Safe and Arm) for use against the Vajra. These shells would obviously be designed to help improve penetration against the heavy Vajra armor. Not sure if they are totally effective, but they likely help. Edited June 20, 2008 by Mr March
Garou Kuroryuu Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 At the end of episode 6, they stated the Valkyries were being loaded with Anti-Vajra E.S.A. munitions (Electronic Safe and Arm) for use against the Vajra. These shells would obviously be designed to help improve penetration against the heavy Vajra armor. Not sure if they are totally effective, but they likely help. Wasn't that anti-ECA (Energy Conversion Armor)???? Which makes a lot of sense, considering how only a couple of episodes earlier, Leon disclosed that Varja had ECA, just like Valks.
Legend of TSXer Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 At the end of episode 6, they stated the Valkyries were being loaded with Anti-Vajra E.S.A. munitions (Electronic Safe and Arm) for use against the Vajra. These shells would obviously be designed to help improve penetration against the heavy Vajra armor. Not sure if they are totally effective, but they likely help. Ohh okay, that makes sense now. Thank you!
Sulendil Ang Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Wasn't that anti-ECA (Energy Conversion Armor)???? Which makes a lot of sense, considering how only a couple of episodes earlier, Leon disclosed that Varja had ECA, just like Valks. Nay, after watching that episode for several times from different sub, I can tell you that it's E.S.A, not ECA. Besides, just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's official.
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