Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[Master Dex]

Agreed, the fact that the VF-25 was more than a match for it in episode 9 makes me think that the erratic movemetns that it can do are more for dodging large volumes of anti-aircraft fire than dogfighting.

Which we also saw in action during ep.7. It was doing crazy quick turns but there was a Vajra hedgehog ship firing at everything that moved and it avoided everything unlike Alto who lost a wing before getting into the ship (where he proceeded to lose everything else).

[d3v]

Which we also saw in action during ep.7. It was doing crazy quick turns but there was a Vajra hedgehog ship firing at everything that moved and it avoided everything unlike Alto who lost a wing before getting into the ship (where he proceeded to lose everything else).

True, actually, based on this and on episode 9, I think that the VF-25 (with super pack) is faster while the VF-27 is more manueverable. In episode 9, Brera seemt to be making shorter, tighter turns than Alto, but the latter was always able to catch up. What remains to be seen is how the VF-25 without super pack performs against the VF-27.

Edited July 2, 2008 by d3v

[hobbes221]

Since it seems that there are no internal launchers on the legs at least (unless they're there and someone could edit the scan to point out where they are) I'm wondering if the VF-25 is dependent on it's FAST Packs for most of its weaponry.

As of right now I myself do not see any place where there could be any internal launcher, however with the way that the wings on the 25 fold back and are out in the open in battriod would mean that stores carried on the wings would not need to be jettisoned before going upright as with just about every VF out there has had to do. I think that this is SK answer to DYRL when just about every VF-1 kept the wings out when they transformed to battriod due to the large multi missile pods that were carried. I seem to remember that some of the early pics of a white and blue VF-25 show a multi missile pods mounted on wings.

On another topic I feel the that the VF-27 may not be a special ops fighter like some think, but is the VF used by the shadow group and the NUNS marking are on birds just to make everything look on the up and up (think SEELE from evangelion with the mass production EVAs). And my two cents on the 27 is that it takes the basic frame of the 25 and is customized for pilots like Brera who with their bodies would be able to use such a craft to the fullest. Also it looks as if the 27 is more of a 'power' fighter and that the 25 is a little more agile. I can't remember which episode right now but wasn't there one with 27 ether coming or going from a hanger with L.A.I. painted on the outside.

Edited July 3, 2008 by hobbes221

[IAD]

I think the -27 has the potential to be just fine, in terms of in-atmosphere maneuverability... 3D thrust-vector on twin engines gives you the ability to control all three axes purely by thrust, with no concern for aerodynamic forces (i.e. zero-indicated-airspeed maneuvering.) This is a huge advantage in a dogfight. It really depends more on what the storyline demands.

Once you have thrust-vector like that, in some ways, fins, etc. are necessities for stable flight, more than anything... They're called stabilizers for a reason; they stabilize. And a highly stable aircraft is not maneuverable.

FWIW, the X-31A was tested in a "quasi-tailless" configuration, where the stabilizing effects of the tail was actively cancelled by the flight-control computer, allowing simulation of tailless flight, without having to chop the fin off the plane. Yaw stability was achieved purely by thrust-vector. The conclusion was that a tailless fighter, (or taken one step further, a fighter with no aerodynamic control surfaces whatsoever) is feasible, and has significant benefits to offer. (Reduced weight, reduced drag, improved stealth...)

I wouldn't dismiss the -27, just because it lacks fins. (And for all intents and purposes, it does; those canards are NOT worth beans in terms of aerodynamic maneuvering. They're TINY!)

~Luke

Edited July 2, 2008 by IAD

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

They can turn me into a cyborg any day if I can fly the VF-27 the way Brera does.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Chief Guld Goa Bowman

[Master Dex]

I'd prefer to fly a VF-25, I like it more.

[Final Vegeta]

I wouldn't dismiss the -27, just because it lacks fins. (And for all intents and purposes, it does; those canards are NOT worth beans in terms of aerodynamic maneuvering. They're TINY!)

Maybe I am missing something. Why are people saying the VF-27 doesn't have tailfins? It has them, they are on the wing engines, very similar to the SR-71 in design.

FV

[Sumdumgai]

But Guilliam's VF-25 fired off a volley of missiles at the red vajra in episode 1, when he had already jettisoned the fast packs to get into the city section. He wasn't carrying any external missiles. They had to have fired from somewhere.

[Master Dex]

But Guilliam's VF-25 fired off a volley of missiles at the red vajra in episode 1, when he had already jettisoned the fast packs to get into the city section. He wasn't carrying any external missiles. They had to have fired from somewhere.

As said this is most likely anime magic. Perhaps he had them attached to his wing but they were hidden by the fast packs and after jettisoned they were there but them he fired them so we never really get to see the missiles. However I think it is more likely they wanted him to fire missiles but didn't bother animating missiles on the plane.

[Master Dex]

Maybe I am missing something. Why are people saying the VF-27 doesn't have tailfins? It has them, they are on the wing engines, very similar to the SR-71 in design.

FV

It has tailfins, what it doesn't have is vertical stabilizers. I was always specific to saw vertical stabilizers.

[Final Vegeta]

It has tailfins, what it doesn't have is vertical stabilizers. I was always specific to saw vertical stabilizers.

If it is like that, I don't think it's a big bother anyway. The YF-21 and SV-51 didn't have them either. I think it is just a "good guy" thing.

FV

[Sumdumgai]

As said this is most likely anime magic. Perhaps he had them attached to his wing but they were hidden by the fast packs and after jettisoned they were there but them he fired them so we never really get to see the missiles. However I think it is more likely they wanted him to fire missiles but didn't bother animating missiles on the plane.

Based on valkyrie evolution, I doubt it to be anime magic. The VF-17, YF/VF-19, YF-21, and VF-22 all have had internally stored missiles that could launch through exit ports or hatches. It would seem weird for the VF-25 to be without internally stored missiles.

[Master Dex]

Based on valkyrie evolution, I doubt it to be anime magic. The VF-17, YF/VF-19, YF-21, and VF-22 all have had internally stored missiles that could launch through exit ports or hatches. It would seem weird for the VF-25 to be without internally stored missiles.

The VF-1 didn't have missiles at all except for being stored on the wings and the VF-11 never had missiles without a super or armor pack. The VF-25 is a lot slimmer than the VF-19 and 22 models and I had belief that there may be small missiles hiding somewhere but I can't see where now that line art fails to show a good place to put them.

[Alastar]

I cant find the scan of the leg of the VF-25 on the forum. But if you look at the scan you will see two exit port's on the legs. The Launcher is slim, streamline thin onto the legs. i wish i could find the scan but i do believe it is there and not CGI magic.

[IAD]

It has tailfins, what it doesn't have is vertical stabilizers. I was always specific to saw vertical stabilizers.

Whoa, wait... It has vertical stabilizers! ("Rudders", see attached.) Again, pretty small for a plane that big, and quite close to the presumed center of gravity, so they don't have a large moment arm at all... That being the case, in real life, they wouldn't be all that effective.

What it doesn't have is horizontal stabilizers. It's basically a flying wing. No separate tailerons/elevator. The 'canards' are so small, I'm thinking they're large antennas or vortex generators, rather than pitch control surfaces.

~Luke

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

If it is like that, I don't think it's a big bother anyway. The YF-21 and SV-51 didn't have them either. I think it is just a "good guy" thing.

FV

The YF-21, VF-22 and SV-51 do have vertical stablilizers.

[grss1982]

Based on valkyrie evolution, I doubt it to be anime magic. The VF-17, YF/VF-19, YF-21, and VF-22 all have had internally stored missiles that could launch through exit ports or hatches. It would seem weird for the VF-25 to be without internally stored missiles.

The VF-1 didn't have missiles at all except for being stored on the wings and the VF-11 never had missiles without a super or armor pack. The VF-25 is a lot slimmer than the VF-19 and 22 models and I had belief that there may be small missiles hiding somewhere but I can't see where now that line art fails to show a good place to put them.

I cant find the scan of the leg of the VF-25 on the forum. But if you look at the scan you will see two exit port's on the legs. The Launcher is slim, streamline thin onto the legs. i wish i could find the scan but i do believe it is there and not CGI magic.

Legs anyone?

http://i32.tinypic.com/dgtkx4.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/143izhg.jpg

Based on the line art it really does seem that the VF-25 does not come with internal missile weaponry. This would reflect earlier comments supposedly made by SK that he was shying away from basing his VFs on real world fighters (e.g. -17; -19; -21/-22), and instead going back to macross' roots (VF-1).

[Zinjo]

Whoa, wait... It has vertical stabilizers! ("Rudders", see attached.) Again, pretty small for a plane that big, and quite close to the presumed center of gravity, so they don't have a large moment arm at all... That being the case, in real life, they wouldn't be all that effective.

What it doesn't have is horizontal stabilizers. It's basically a flying wing. No separate tailerons/elevator. The 'canards' are so small, I'm thinking they're large antennas or vortex generators, rather than pitch control surfaces.

~Luke

Wouldn't the BFG cause a lot of drag as well?

Edited July 3, 2008 by Zinjo

[azrael]

http://i29.tinypic.com/143izhg.jpg

BTW, this guy is fanart...

But anyways.... Perhaps the VF-25's slim figure is a compromise since the VF can transform with a Full Armor system (and yes, the slim figure is noted by Kawamori). Internal weapon systems and containers may add bulk to the VF which would prohibit using a Full armor in all modes. Slimming it down to just the bare-bones and using external mounts may have been the only way to allow for a transformation with Full Armor. A VF-25 still maintains the multi-role aspect of a VF-19, but without the bulk.

[Zinjo]

BTW, this guy is fanart...

But anyways.... Perhaps the VF-25's slim figure is a compromise since the VF can transform with a Full Armor system (and yes, the slim figure is noted by Kawamori). Internal weapon systems and containers may add bulk to the VF which would prohibit using a Full armor in all modes. Slimming it down to just the bare-bones and using external mounts may have been the only way to allow for a transformation with Full Armor. A VF-25 still maintains the multi-role aspect of a VF-19, but without the bulk.

Probably more so, as the VF-25 can add mission specific armaments in all modes whereas the 19 was limited in that respect.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Zinjo

[Sumdumgai]

Legs anyone?

http://i32.tinypic.com/dgtkx4.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/143izhg.jpg

Based on the line art it really does seem that the VF-25 does not come with internal missile weaponry. This would reflect earlier comments supposedly made by SK that he was shying away from basing his VFs on real world fighters (e.g. -17; -19; -21/-22), and instead going back to macross' roots (VF-1).

Oh, I don't know. The YF-21/VF-22 is pretty damned thin and it has room for micro-missiles, not to mention that the VF-22 can carry two reaction missiles. I definitely agree that it doesn't look like the VF-25 stores any missiles in the legs after seeing those designs! I guess that with how modular the weapons systems add-ons are for the VF-25 that it could have been designed without internal weapons storage bays.

Thanks for posting those pics grss1982.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if it ever fires off missiles again without fast-packs or under-wing missiles.

edit: azrael beat me to the punch about the fast/armored packs. And, zinjo makes a really good point about the VF-25's adaptability as a multi-role fighter.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Sumdumgai

[Master Dex]

Whoa, wait... It has vertical stabilizers! ("Rudders", see attached.) Again, pretty small for a plane that big, and quite close to the presumed center of gravity, so they don't have a large moment arm at all... That being the case, in real life, they wouldn't be all that effective.

What it doesn't have is horizontal stabilizers. It's basically a flying wing. No separate tailerons/elevator. The 'canards' are so small, I'm thinking they're large antennas or vortex generators, rather than pitch control surfaces.

~Luke

Besides the stabilizers on the wing engines I don't see any more vertical stabilizers (granted I did forget about the ones on the wing engines, but that aside). We are thinking the same thing I hope, by vertical stabilizers I am referring to fins that (commonly) run perpendicular to the main wings (often with Valkyries and newer jets today the vertical stabilizers are more slanted).

[ChronoReverse]

I wonder how it is that the QRaus can still handle so well in an atmosphere considering that they're as aerodynamic as bathtubs. In light of that I guess the 27 shouldn't have too much trouble. Perhaps it'll even the maneuverability edge.

[hobbes221]

With four engines and some kind kind of BDI system the 27 should be able to fly and fight just fine in an atmosphere if by nothing else than by brute force. Hey what does anyone else think about those two engines on the wings having 3D thrust vectoring as well.

[Zinjo]

With four engines and some kind kind of BDI system the 27 should be able to fly and fight just fine in an atmosphere if by nothing else than by brute force. Hey what does anyone else think about those two engines on the wings having 3D thrust vectoring as well.

It'd be interesting, but so far all we've seen them do is act like onboard FAST pack thrusters...

[Master Dex]

With four engines and some kind kind of BDI system the 27 should be able to fly and fight just fine in an atmosphere if by nothing else than by brute force. Hey what does anyone else think about those two engines on the wings having 3D thrust vectoring as well.

The wing engines don't look like they have thrust vectoring, but with the main engines doing that I don't think they need to do it. All that just goes to prove the age old mantra: "If you put powerful enough engines on it, it will fly." This is true even today, take the F-15 for example, the thing can fly with its main wings blown off, its engines are that good.

[Chief Guld Goa Bowman]

I wonder how it is that the QRaus can still handle so well in an atmosphere considering that they're as aerodynamic as bathtubs. In light of that I guess the 27 shouldn't have too much trouble. Perhaps it'll even the maneuverability edge.

Queadluun-Raus use vernier thrusters for atmospheric controls, inertia vector control system.

[Morpheus]

---Raises hand----

Question. In episode 12 Michael VF-25 is carrying 4 speaker pods on the underwing hardpoints, and also Michael use his FAST pack which include the advance fold booster and the chest-wing pack. My question is wouldn't the wing hardpoints be obstructed by the wing FAST pack?

Edited July 3, 2008 by Morpheus

[ChronoReverse]

I'm just thinking about the VF-22. It has the intertial vector control system, wing surfaces AND the verniers. The QRaus can maneuver despite its shape because of the VCS and verniers but that doesn't explain why it's so close to a VF. But it's only a tiny stretch =)

[Valkyrie addict]

---Raises hand----

Question. In episode 12 Michael VF-25 is carrying 4 speaker pods on the underwing hardpoints, and also Michael use his FAST pack which include the advance fold booster and the chest-wing pack. My question is wouldn't the wing hardpoints be obstructed by the wing FAST pack?

you can add when Alto enters the atmosphere, the wings retract moderately, but how did Mikhael enter the atmosphere with his speakers?

[info600]

there may be just enough room to mount all that hardware (comparing the speakers' placement in ep.12 to the vf-25 pics on the official website)

anyone else want to confirm/argue with me here?

[junior]

you can add when Alto enters the atmosphere, the wings retract moderately, but how did Mikhael enter the atmosphere with his speakers?

I don't see that. Rather, it looks to me as if the VF-25 is a swing-wing design (like the VF-1) and Alto keeps the wings back during descent and swings them forward again after reaching a safe altitude and speed. The speakers should be fine - at least as far as their positions on the wing hardpoints are concerned.

A more interesting question is how exactly they managed to survive reentry in their position at the bottom of Michael's wings. I guess I'm going to have to assume that they're made of special reentry resistant handwavium that can only be used to make VF speakers.

[badboy00z]

Maybe they were ECA equipped speaker pods. Lol.

[Valkyrie addict]

and I suppose SMS has special atmosphere reentry resistant compatible speaker pods lying around in their hangar just for the sake of it?? ahahaha

[David Hingtgen]

Well, with rogue Zentradi always being a threat, I bet every fleet has at least 1 set of speakers for a Minmei attack...