Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[wolfx]

As said in the Macross Compendium VF-25 "Messiah" Article...

"According to Kawamori, the VF-25 is a deliberate attempt to move away from the silhouettes of current real-world fighters, which are dominated by an emphasis on (passive) stealth. He also notes that since this is the first major Valkyrie that transforms in all modes with its Armored parts still attached, he gave the unarmored fighter a slim profile. He thinks the VF-25 resembles a slimmer VF-1 Valkyrie in Fighter mode, but transforms like a VF-19 Excalibur."

I believe u ppl should visit that site waaay more often, hehe...

Anything cited from that article i can't take seriously. Everything from Ranka's hair and even "Speed, Miracle, Spacy."

Edited June 3, 2008 by wolfx

[Kronnang Dunn]

Anything cited from that article i can't take seriously.

AFAIK The Macross Compendium is an online guide to the official Macross universe.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

And even without confirmation from the Compendium (which is the closest we have to an official english source, I think even the creators have gven it the thumbs up), it's plain to see that the Vf-25 transforms nothing like the SV-51.

The cockpit of both the 25 and 19 end up both in the same position after transformation, for both craft, the main upper body goes up and over the front ending up perpendicular to the now vertically oriened cockpit and fuselage. The only differences are that the nose of the 25 folds down completely degrees whereas the 19s only folds 90 degrees and points forward and the shoulders which is due to the difference in the way the back of the 25 transforms, however the arms themselves are still stroed in the traditional position in between the legs.

For the SV-51, most of the fuselage, including the cockpit, points around 45 or so degrees downward while the torso slides up and out and the nose folds back as if to sniff its own behind. The cockpit in this case still points forward albeit with a downward angle. Also, the arms of the SV-51 rest outside of the legs in fighter mode more like the YF-21/VF-22.

Edited June 3, 2008 by d3v

[Duke Togo]

AFAIK The Macross Compendium is an online guide to the official Macross universe.

Indeed. It has gotten the big nod from Big West.

[d3v]

The only reason IMO, why it should kinda look like the SV-51 is that both have a very slim profile.

[kensei]

Indeed. It has gotten the big nod from Big West.

When I just looked at the Messiah entry just then, I've gotten my first doubts about the recent information. I don't feel that the VF-25F is the "normal" version. I feel that there is another designation below the F that was not mentioned yet, when I looked back and checked out the brown 25 in the Frontier's hangar. It had a single head laser just like the G. It could very well be another G, but i'm wondering if a G designation is just with a sniper rifle instead of a gunpod.

[wolfx]

And even without confirmation from the Compendium (which is the closest we have to an official english source, I think even the creators have gven it the thumbs up), it's plain to see that the Vf-25 transforms nothing like the SV-51.

The cockpit of both the 25 and 19 end up both in the same position after transformation, for both craft, the main upper body goes up and over the front ending up perpendicular to the now vertically oriened cockpit and fuselage. The only differences are that the nose of the 25 folds down completely degrees whereas the 19s only folds 90 degrees and points forward and the shoulders which is due to the difference in the way the back of the 25 transforms, however the arms themselves are still stroed in the traditional position in between the legs.

For the SV-51, most of the fuselage, including the cockpit, points around 45 or so degrees downward while the torso slides up and out and the nose folds back as if to sniff its own behind. The cockpit in this case still points forward albeit with a downward angle. Also, the arms of the SV-51 rest outside of the legs in fighter mode more like the YF-21/VF-22.

Can't argue with u if u just take the cockpit as the comparison point. What about :

1.) The torso section that flips and rests on the nosecone/cockpit section

2.) The wings which are generally same transformation as SV-51

3.) The head that faces forward in fighter mode

4.) The nose cone, that folds into the landing gear doors. The main diff of the VF-25 part with the SV-51 is the whole cockpit flips backwards rather than forwards thus why you'd think that it looks like the VF-19.

5.) The wing-root guns

Look at the OP and carefully see how the cockpit section flips and moves when Alto transforms from gerwalk mode to battroid mode. Shrug. To each their own. Not that it matters. Even Kawamori himself doesn't seem sure.

[mikeszekely]

The SV-51 and VF-25 might transform differently, and I agree that they don't resemble each other without really looking for similar details in fighter mode, but I think they have similar Battroids. They both have slim limbs, both their knees jut out from the legs at the top, they both have small chunks of material hanging off their hips. They both have a mostly horizontal upper torso that angles slightly downward from back to front, a mostly vertical mid-torso that angles front to back, and mostly diagonal hips that angle from back to front, which gives the Battroids a sort of lightning bolt-shaped torso, viewed from the side.

VF-14 was if I recall correctly, a heavy fighter bomber. The 5000 was inspired by the Mirage 2000 hence the similar name.

The VF-14 was a heavier fighter, but one that retains the VF designation. The VA-14 is the heavy fighter-bomber. And the VF-5000 is indeed inspired by Mirage, but again it has the VF designation, and 5000 is still an even number. What's more, although their designs are unlikely to exist outside Kawamori's head, there was a VF-6 that was designed as a low-cost VF for colony worlds and a VF-16, which I believe was described as a delta-winged fighter. Add that with the VF-4 and the VF-22 (sure, it came from the YF-21, but if you want to count that as an odd you'd have the note that the VF-25 came from the YF-24 and count it as an even), and I think the result is that, while the majority of the animated VFs have been odds, I'd say it's more of a coincidence than a homage to Mikoyan-Gurevich.

[d3v]

Can't argue with u if u just take the cockpit as the comparison point. What about :

1.) The torso section that flips and rests on the nosecone/cockpit section

Yes, the torso rests on the stub of the nose that has now folded down, just like the VF-19.

2.) The wings which are generally same transformation as SV-51

3.) The head that faces forward in fighter mode

So I'm guessing that it transforms like the VF-4 since its head also pointed forward in fighter mode?

4.) The nose cone, that folds into the landing gear doors. The main diff of the VF-25 part with the SV-51 is the whole cockpit flips backwards rather than forwards thus why you'd think that it looks like the VF-19.

The nose cone and forward fuselage of the SV-51 form the battroids crotch, which isn't the case with the VF-25 and VF-19.

5.) The wing-root guns

In a similar place where the wing roots of the VF-19 conencted to the legs in batroid mode, this time simply without the whole wing.

Look at the OP and carefully see how the cockpit section flips and moves when Alto transforms from gerwalk mode to battroid mode. Shrug. To each their own. Not that it matters. Even Kawamori himself doesn't seem sure.

Yes, the cockpit moves exactly like it does with the VF-19, flips back into a vertical orientation. The animation is simply smoother and not as stilted as in Macross 7 where they focused on individual bits of the transformation.

You're simply looking mostly individual bits and pieces, but I'm talking about arguably the most important bit, the lynchpin so to speak of a valk's transformation into Battroid mode. It could even be said that it defines the valks transformation.

In the case of the VF-25, it is similar to the VF-19 not the SV-51. You can check the attached abstract diagram showing the relative posiiton of the parts in both fighter and battroid.

Edited June 3, 2008 by d3v

[wolfx]

Yes, the torso rests on the stub of the nose that has now folded down, just like the VF-19.

More like the torso flips over the nose, just like the SV-51 except its flipping the other direction. Refer to images below.

So I'm guessing that it transforms like the VF-4 since its head also pointed forward in fighter mode?

SV-51 is pretty much a VF-4 kinda design anyway.

The nose cone and forward fuselage of the SV-51 form the battroids crotch, which isn't the case with the VF-25 and VF-19.

Yes, the cockpit moves exactly like it does with the VF-19, flips back into a vertical orientation.

You're simply looking mostly individual bits and pieces, but I'm talking about arguably the most important bit, the lynchpin so to speak of a valk's transformation into Battroid mode. It could even be said that it defines the valks transformation.

In the case of the VF-25, it is similar to the VF-19 not the SV-51. You can check the attached abstract diagram showing the relative posiiton of the parts in both fighter and battroid.

Your diagram fails to show the hinges and pivot points that make it transform. The final location of the piece does not denote the same type of transformation. At least not to me.

In the 3rd image, i highlighted the mechanics that make the torso swivel into position, the same ones in the SV-51. But note that it swivels further than a SV-51 does thus it covers the nose cone like that. Otherwise as you can see in this pic, it will end up pretty similar to the SV-51. Those who own the toy might know what i'm talking about.

PS: Also note that the SV-51 was designed much later than the VF-19 was. Kawamori probably learnt a thing or two from his lego transformations of the SV-51 and incorporated some of them into the VF-25 design. As most people are aware, the VF/YF-19 wasn't the most accurate of designs due to anime-magic involved thus how the transformation happens was more of an afterthought rather than today's designs, with the how taking priority over the final look.

Edited June 3, 2008 by wolfx

[Mr March]

The majority of Kawamori's designs include all those design elements (aside from the color) and most of those specific elements are taken from the SV-51 and the VF-19, not the VF-1. I just don't see the connection. To me the VF-1 has always appeared as a Tomcat style aircraft; in contrast, the VF-25, at least to me, looks like a Flanker style aircraft.

To my mind, if variable fighter technology was given to the real militaries of today, the US would produce something that looked like the VF-5000 or the YF-21 while Russia would produce something like the SV-51 or the VF-25.

You know, it just hit me; I think the reason why Kawamori and some fans believe the VF-25 is an interpretation of the VF-1 is the lack of stealth styling and the prominent in-anime swing wing (the obvious Hikaru color scheme aside). Most of the post-FB2012 Kawamori Valkyries use stealth considerations; the shaped bodies, the wings, the tapered nose cones, etc. The VF-25 is the first Macross main fighter in a long time that abandons stealth considerations, so fans and Kawamori look to the last variable fighter built as such; the VF-1. That makes perfect sense.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Mr March

[d3v]

More like the torso flips over the nose, just like the SV-51 except its flipping the other direction. Refer to images below.

And that is different from the VF-19 how?

Your diagram fails to show the hinges and pivot points that make it transform. The final location of the piece does not denote the same type of transformation. At least not to me.

In the 3rd image, i highlighted the mechanics that make the torso swivel into position, the same ones in the SV-51. But note that it swivels further than a SV-51 does thus it covers the nose cone like that. Otherwise as you can see in this pic, it will end up pretty similar to the SV-51. Those who own the toy might know what i'm talking about.

The twin leading edge extensions/swing arms simply replace the one pece folding back section of the 19. Different bits, but still the same transformation.

PS: Also note that the SV-51 was designed much later than the VF-19 was. Kawamori probably learnt a thing or two from his lego transformations of the SV-51 and incorporated some of them into the VF-25 design. As most people are aware, the VF/YF-19 wasn't the most accurate of designs due to anime-magic involved thus how the transformation happens was more of an afterthought rather than today's designs, with the how taking priority over the final look.

But Kawamori himself has stated that the VF-19 transforms like the VF-19, and I doubt Egan takes his being acknowledged by Big West lightly.

[wolfx]

And that is different from the VF-19 how?

Own a YF-19 toy and SV-51 toy and you'll see how it is different. I can't explain it too well but yeah.

The twin leading edge extensions/swing arms simply replace the one pece folding back section of the 19. Different bits, but still the same transformation.

More like same bits, same transformation (to SV-51) but with slight variance in the pivot points.

But Kawamori himself has stated that the VF-19 transforms like the VF-19, and I doubt Egan takes his being acknowledged by Big West lightly.

Oh great froating head. He also said that Ranka's hair moves because some Zentrans can. You gonna take that as canon?

And if we wanna pull hairs, the entry says "he THINKS" its a VF-1 lookalike that transforms like a VF-19. Sounds like he's not sure himself....

But you know what, i'm done with this topic. Its pointless and doesn't add any value to the thread and discussion so i'll just agree to disagree with you and Kawamori.

Edited June 3, 2008 by wolfx

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The YF-19 also had the wing root guns.

He also said that Ranka's hair moves because some Zentrans can. rolleyes.gif You gonna take that as canon?

He did make Macross after all...

The SV-51 is closer to the VF-27 than to the 25.

[Zinjo]

The YF-19 also had the wing root guns.

He did make Macross after all...

Well he created the universe, then storyboarded the eps, designed the VF-1 and directed the VF-1 sequences of SDFM. He was the junior man on that team. However, his subsequent works in the universe have been quite interesting (despite his limited involvement with M7).

The SV-51 is closer to the VF-27 than to the 25.

Aesthetically, yes. Both designs benefited from the design experiments that created the SV-51.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Zinjo

[Duke Togo]

Oh great froating head. He also said that Ranka's hair moves because some Zentrans can. You gonna take that as canon?

Well, you can thank DYRL for that. Just part of the continuing retcon.

[wolfx]

He did make Macross after all...

I think we discussed this on another thread, Macross cannot be credited to him solely alone. It was team effort between him, Mikimoto and Itano. Its just that he adopted it as his own since DYRL? and he's known as father of Macross from then on.

[Mr March]

The SV-51 is closer to the VF-27 than to the 25.

Just my opinion, but given how close the VF-25 and VF-27 are in virtually all the major design elements, that's very little distinction.

[Final Vegeta]

PS: Also note that the SV-51 was designed much later than the VF-19 was. Kawamori probably learnt a thing or two from his lego transformations of the SV-51 and incorporated some of them into the VF-25 design. As most people are aware, the VF/YF-19 wasn't the most accurate of designs due to anime-magic involved thus how the transformation happens was more of an afterthought rather than today's designs, with the how taking priority over the final look.

You didn't think the VF-19 didn't have a Lego prototype too, did you?

Anyway, my 2 cents: the VF-27 as a Battroid is very similar to the VF-25. As a Fighter it is a cross between a SV-51 (nose and canards) and the Blackbird (wings). Basically it is a further development of motifs from Kawamori's enemy mecha, either in Battroid or in Fighter: the Elgerzorene and Sturmzorene from Air Cavalry Chronicles, the Elgerzorene from Macross 7 and the SV-51.

FV

Edited June 5, 2008 by Final Vegeta

[Beltane70]

wolfx, I can't believe that you forgot Noboru Ishiguro, the chief director of the original Macross!

[wolfx]

wolfx, I can't believe that you forgot Noboru Ishiguro, the chief director of the original Macross!

Yeah...i didn't mention him because someone on this boards mentioned he played more of a "sempai" director role, keeping this team of young otaku punks in check so they can produce coherent material, and that he didn't provide any of the creative input for Macross.

You didn't think the VF-19 didn't have a Lego prototype too, did you?

Imageshack isn't loading for me....demmit. Yeah i didn't know VF-19 had a lego model...but regardless its proportions are not right.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I think we discussed this on another thread, Macross cannot be credited to him solely alone. It was team effort between him, Mikimoto and Itano. Its just that he adopted it as his own since DYRL? and he's known as father of Macross from then on.

Yeah...i didn't mention him because someone on this boards mentioned he played more of a "sempai" director role, keeping this team of young otaku punks in check so they can produce coherent material, and that he didn't provide any of the creative input for Macross.

...and you also forgot to mention Kazutaka Miyatake, the "Silent Backbone of Studio Nue"... (he created the SDF-1, lots of ships, the Destroids and the Zentradi power suits for crying out loud!!!). He is currently a conceptual designer for Macross Frontier too...

Btw... I really can't understand what does Ranka hair or the original Macross have to do with the design of the VF-25? I thought that was the only thing in discussion here. Shoji Kawamori is the person who designed the VF-25... No one else... If he says is based on the VF-19, then VF-19 it is... nothing more, nothing less...

Let me see... What should I trust more?

The opinion of Macross Mecha Designer (and Anime Legend) Shoji Kawamori...

or

The opinion of a fan...

(Mmmmh... a tuff one!)

Edited June 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[wolfx]

...and you also forgot to mention Kazutaka Miyatake, the "Silent Backbone of Studio Nue"... (he created the SDF-1, lots of ships, the Destroids and the Zentradi power suits for crying out loud!!!). He is currently a conceptual designer for Macross Frontier too...

Btw... I really can't understand what does Ranka hair or the original Macross have to do with the design of the VF-25? I thought that was the only thing in discussion here. Shoji Kawamori is the person who designed the VF-25... No one else... If he says is based on the VF-19, then VF-19 it is... nothing more, nothing less...

Let me see... What should I trust more?

The opinion of Macross Mecha Designer (and Anime Legend) Shoji Kawamori...

or

The opinion of a fan...

(Mmmmh... a tuff one!)

Don't have to be sarcastic. You can treat Kawamori's offhand statements as sacred text all you want, including the ones regarding to Ranka's hair.

I've shown the transformation mechanisms that make the VF-25 similar to the SV-51 and that's where i'm coming from. I don't think i'm the lone person who thinks so too.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I've shown the transformation mechanisms that make the VF-25 similar to the SV-51 and that's where i'm coming from. I don't think i'm the lone person who thinks so too.

Doesn't surprise me at all, since Kawamori also designed the SV-51. The SV-51 design came after the VF-19 design, so is logical to assume that he used elements of the VF-19 on the SV-51. And the VF-25 design came after the one for the SV-51, so is obvious he used elements from the VF-19 on it too...

Edited June 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[d3v]

I've shown the transformation mechanisms that make the VF-25 similar to the SV-51 and that's where i'm coming from. I don't think i'm the lone person who thinks so too.

Mechanisms yes, however the basic concept of the design is more similar to the VF-19 (heck, the first time I saw the Deculture Edition of Ep.1 last year, I immediately thought of the VF-19 when I saw Ozma transform, and mind you this was before I read the article on the compendium).

Edited June 4, 2008 by d3v

[wolfx]

Mechanisms yes, however the basic concept of the design is more similar to the VF-19 (heck, the first time I saw the Deculture Edition of Ep.1 last year, I immediately thought of the VF-19 when I saw Ozma transform, and mind you this was before I read the article on the compendium).

Like i said, i agree to disagree.

[badboy00z]

The VF-25's transformation is closer to the YF/VF-19. The canopy on both sit vertical with the canopy facing the back of the battroid. The only difference is the nose cone folds downwards. The arms sit between the legs instead of on the side of the engine nacelles. The SV-51's canopy sits slightly downwards with the front fuselage coming over it and becoming the chest and the nose cone becomes the crotch. The VF-25's only resemblance to the SV-51 is the long nose.

[grss1982]

Just re-watched Episode 7. AGAIN!!!

And I just noticed that when Alto-Hime didtched the Super Pack Parts he used the left control stick.

I know its fifty plus years later, but whatever happened to the good old BIG RED Button we see in Macross Zero?

[d3v]

Just re-watched Episode 7. AGAIN!!!

And I just noticed that when Alto-Hime didtched the Super Pack Parts he used the left control stick.

I know its fifty plus years later, but whatever happened to the good old BIG RED Button we see in Macross Zero?

Probably integrated into the stick so that the pilot doesn't have to take his hands off it.

[Kurisama]

Just re-watched Episode 7. AGAIN!!!

And I just noticed that when Alto-Hime didtched the Super Pack Parts he used the left control stick.

I know its fifty plus years later, but whatever happened to the good old BIG RED Button we see in Macross Zero?

I love that big 'ol red button - something very Voltron about it.

[taksraven]

Probably integrated into the stick so that the pilot doesn't have to take his hands off it.

Yep, pilots hate taking their hands off their "stick". :lol:

Taksraven

[Zinjo]

Btw... I really can't understand what does Ranka hair or the original Macross have to do with the design of the VF-25? I thought that was the only thing in discussion here. Shoji Kawamori is the person who designed the VF-25... No one else... If he says is based on the VF-19, then VF-19 it is... nothing more, nothing less...

Let me see... What should I trust more?

The opinion of Macross Mecha Designer (and Anime Legend) Shoji Kawamori...

or

The opinion of a fan...

(Mmmmh... a tuff one!)

Wow next you'll be claiming he animated the whole SDFM series by himself and found the cure for cancer at the same time...

He's a good story teller and a great variable fighter designer with the added bonus that he can direct VF sequences better than anyone else...so far...

He is hardly a god and some need to keep that in mind...

[Mr March]

*cheers on Zinknowshisstuff*

Some seem to be speaking a little too generally here, so I'm not sure where the criticism is being directed. But I doubt most of us are questioning the designer himself when looking at the valkyrie, only explaining how we see it from our own perspective. Even if Shoji Kawamori said to me the VF-25 is more an homage to an F-14 than an Su-27, I'd demand he convince me. I still see more of a SV-51 meets VF-19 in the new Messiah valkyrie, but I'd be interested to know exactly what it is from the VF-1 that Kawamori recognizes in his newest VF-25 design. That's all I'm saying.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Mr March

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

but I'd be interested to know exactly what it is from the VF-1 that Kawamori recognizes in his newest VF-25 design. That's all I'm saying.

For me its simple. Its the general look and features of the bird. What do the VF-1, VF-0, and VF-25 have? Swing wings, no horizontal stabilizers, has ventral fins, and vertical stabilizers. Even the VF-11, aside from the fact that it has canards.

The VF-27 looks closer to the SV-51 to me since not only is it purple, but its canards are swept forward, and along the spine of the aircraft like the 51, not to mention it has a thin, long rifle.

[Mr March]

I understand, but like I said, all those design elements match the VF-19 and SV-51 styles, not the VF-1. The VF-25 engines are elevated in the center of the fighter fuselage like the VF-19 (not ventrally, like the VF-1). The VF-25 vertical stabilizers are small, outboard and mounted on the extended body just like the VF-19 (not large and inboard, like the VF-1). The entire rear half of the rear fuselage is lifting surface (including a central rear sheild) just like the VF-19 (unlike the VF-1 which has virtually no rear fuselage). The engines nozzels/feet are similar to the YF-19. The VF-25's long torpedo shaped nose, the forward fuselage/leading edge extensions and the forward intakes are all SV-51.

Then there's the strong Aquarion influences (head unit, mechanised styling, ankle details). Since it's not really relevant, we'll ignore the VF-19-like transformation.

The only things I see on the VF-25 that strongly scream "VF-1" are the colors (which can be put on any valkyrie) and the variable geometry wings. And I still say the wings themselves look more like the VF-0 than the VF-1, though I acknowledge that the VF-0 is basically a stealth VF-1

Is the VF-27 nose and forward fuselage more SV-51 than even the VF-25? Sure, but I've yet to be convinced the VF-25 nose and forward fuselage is somehow more VF-1 than it is SV-51. That's what I'm getting at.

Perhaps in Kawamori's mind, he deliberately tried to create a VF-19/SV-51 combo that removed the stealth considerations and incorporated some VF-1 elements. I can understand that thinking. But to me, the final VF-25 design is far more reminiscent of the SV-51/VF-19 than it will ever be of the VF-1.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Mr March