Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread II *Read 1st Post*

[Zinjo]

There is an obvious reason many are missing.

The NMC's gunship carries it's reactor "onboard". If we are to assume the gunship is as powerful as the original PC based super dimension cannon, then it's plausible that it take an hour to recharge since it isn't part of the power grid of the NMC as was the case with the SDF-1. The allowance of a transforming cap ship (for the coolness factor... ) was given a limitation with respect to recharge rates of the gunship. Yes there are greater tactical options with having a gunship able to fire from a different point in space than the carrier, but a long recharge rate affects those tactical options as well.

Miyataki did indeed have designs of the Battle 7 with a mounted cannon, but that is not what was chosen for the final design.

I have no issues with Kawamori's idea of transforming capital ships, my only issues is that they DON'T have to transform into a gun toting cowboy in space...

[azrael]

I have no issues with Kawamori's idea of transforming capital ships, my only issues is that they DON'T have to transform into a gun toting cowboy in space...

Nothing like having a giant robot fire a BFG.

[Legend of TSXer]

Nothing like having a giant robot fire a BFG.

Ditto, aslong as it doesn't turn into the BFG that the bigger ship uses (Macross Quarter = > BFG for Macross 25).

[Morpheus]

Ditto, aslong as it doesn't turn into the BFG that the bigger ship uses (Macross Quarter = > BFG for Macross 25).

That would be awesome, same like how Ygdrassil IV use Ygdrassil III as a buster cannon

This makes me wanna make a kitbash of several NMC joined together like Mac II Macross Cannon.

[Spitze]

You mean you guys don't like the SRX + R-Gun combination?!

[Sulendil Ang]

You mean you guys don't like the SRX + R-Gun combination?!

Generally, our MW members don't like Super Robots.

But I'm ok with Supers, and I think SRX + R-Gun combination is quite cool.

[grss1982]

Speaking of Macross-Related Technology, I just wanted to post the very interesting comments below from a member at animesuki.com forums. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php...363#post1617363

Quite an intresting read, especially for people like me who don't have the material this poster (ReddyRedWolf) has.

As facinating as you are arguing about the merits of kinetic vs beam weaponry in Macross.

Let us see who is who among the weapons biz. (Source Macross The Galaxy Sourcebook 3)

Chapter 6 – Companies & Manufacturers

This chapter details some of the companies and manufacturers of the destroids, variable fighters and other technologies. Being mostly democratic, the New Unity government allows free enterprise and business, although they do have more control over costs for commodities that are essential to life (such as medical care). Many corporations cater specifically to the UN government.

Major Corporations Listed here are some of the largest and more well known companies in the Macross saga.

OTEC – This was the original group founded in 1999 to reverse-engineer the Protoculture’s gunship that landed on South Ataria Island. It was OTEC that designed thethermonuclear reactor engine, the pinpoint barrier system and the hyper-alloy materials for their armor. They also developed reaction weaponry. Stonewell-Bellcom – Developed the VF-0/VF-1, VF-4 and the Destroid MBR & HWR series.

Shinnakasu – Co-develops the VF-5000 with Stonewell-Bellcom. Before merging with Stonewell-Bellcom, Shinnakasu was the leading manufacturer of thermonuclear turbine engines.

General Galaxy – Founded by ex-science officer of the Zentraedi Boddole Zer fleet, Algus Selzaa, their first project given to them by UN Spacy was the design and development of the VF-9 Cutlass, and later the VF-17 Nightmare. During Project Super Nova, they offered the YF-21. General Galaxy specializes in developing stealth fighters.

Shinsei Industries – This company was formed from the merging of Shinnakasu and Stonewell-Bellcom in 2012. Developed the VF-11 Thunderbolt and VF-16. During Project Super Nova, they offered the YF-19 designed by Yang Neumann. Northrom Grumman – Developed the VA-3 Invader. Co-developed the VB-6 with Shinnakasu. Specializes in heavy bomber technology. Also developed the Masamune battroid.

Mikoyan – This company co-developed the VAB-2 with Northrom Grumman, and the VA-14 with General Galaxy. Specializes in stealth bomber technology. Messer – This company co-developed the VF-14 with General Galaxy.

Viggers & Chrauler Corporations – Manufactures of heavy destroid and heavy weaponry technology. Designed the HWR technology.

Centinental Corporations / Kransman Group – Another destroid manufacturer conglomerate. Designed the Sparta and Spartan. Co-develops the Dehawk and Monster with Viggers/Chrauler. Specializes in MBR robotics.

Hughes Corporation – Primary manufacturer of GU (gun unit) weapons for variable fighters. Raytheon Industrial – This is one of the leading manufacturers of missile technology, sometimes working with Bifors and Erlikon.

Bifors Corporation – Another producer of missile technology.

Erlikon – Another producer of missile technology as well as high-power ballistic weapons for mecha.

Mauler Industries – A company that produces energy weapon technology, including lasers and particle beam cannons.

Ramington – A company that primarily makes mecha ballistic weapons, and some explosive components for missile warheads. Produced the mecha-scale hand grenade used by the VF-1 GPS unit.

Astra Weaponry Incorporated – This group exclusively deals with multi-weapon modules used by various destroid units.

Orguss Manufacturing Conglomerate – This group designed the VF-O-1A Orguss Valkyrie as a heavy combat mecha that combined the roles of the variable fighter and the destroid. Unfortunately the design had inherent flaws and not many units were made.

SDF-1 Onboard Weapon Factory – Not truly a company, the onboard factory produced the Phalanx and Maverick, and made designs for the SPD-1 Stampede.

Macross Consortium – While not truly a “company”, the Macross Consortium is the UN’s own science group, composed mostly of civilian contractors. They have been involved in the development of many different projects, including the virtual idol Sharon Apple.

Macross 7 Science Group – Again, not a true company. Lead by Dr. Gadget Chiba, they devised the sound energy theory and developed the Sound Energy System, Sound Booster, and Sound Buster Cannon technologies.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I just think the transforming battleship idea is just there "cuz it's cool". The main advantage I see is you can use the daedalus attack and then thrust backwards more easily to pull the arm out of the ship you just poked a hole in to blow it up from the inside. In bot mode it has the chest thrusters to allow it to do that and retract the arm quickly. If you can't fire the main gun anymore, you can use that to poke your enemy with the arms, while simultaneously retreating from the enemy to get some distance between you and them. In ship mode, you would need to turn around first, making you vulnerable wouldn't you?

It's a bit like how Gerwalk mode offers the ability to hover and strafe where you can't do that with the fighter mode of the vf-1 right? At close range in ship mode you are a sitting duck. But in bot mode you have a fist to punch things with when there is no more power left to fire a shot. In a way the deadalus attack is like the bayonet of the vf-11's gunpod for when a rushing enemy who is determined to close the distance, is more of the immediate threat at this moment than anything further back. Having the option to ram a ship, (offensively) or have it run into a fist while you move in reverse to absorb the attempt to crash into you, (defensive) is better than just sitting there trying to blow tiny chunks off the armor plating with small guns which take a long time to have any effect.

I know it's silly but for a show where the scientists themselves came up with the idea to make their fighters transform into robots to kill giants (and having those robots physically punch and kick those giants at close range) instead of using tanks to blow them up like any other target, you can't really complain about that! Bot mode is all about close-in fighting. Why not have ships that can reconfigure for that too just like how GERWALK mode for the VF is just the fighter mode with thrusters pointing down so it can land or brake in more style?

Edited May 28, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Alastar]

I agree.

Like we seen with the VF's your gonna need more than 1 form in order to change the tide of a fight. Thank god the Macross 25 is not the size of a NMC. Right now its like a super sized VF from how they plan on using it from that first engagement. Armed to the teeth, can hold enough fighters for its role and has Desteroids. Not truly over kill unless they start using Reaction weapons....but we are only up 2 ep 9.

[Duke Togo]

Pretty sure this is the right place for this, and I am a little surprised no one else (that I have seen) has brought this up yet. There has been alot of talk of the Vajra being some Protoculture based defense system, weapon system, what have you, because of the similarities to the APHOS in Zero. But at the beginning of episode 6 (just grabbed the Shinsen release, so it was fresh in my mind) it's stated that fold "Fault Surfaces" (not "dislocation", the text is actually in the animation) and energy consumption are limiting factors for all Protoculture derived civilizations. But in episode 7 we see these are definitely not limiting factors for the Vajra. If they were Protoculture based, and this is a technological limitation that they did not conquer, would this not be an issue for them, as well?

[tankf77]

Pretty sure this is the right place for this, and I am a little surprised no one else (that I have seen) has brought this up yet. There has been alot of talk of the Vajra being some Protoculture based defense system, weapon system, what have you, because of the similarities to the APHOS in Zero. But at the beginning of episode 6 (just grabbed the Shinsen release, so it was fresh in my mind) it's stated that fold "Fault Surfaces" (not "dislocation", the text is actually in the animation) and energy consumption are limiting factors for all Protoculture derived civilizations. But in episode 7 we see these are definitely not limiting factors for the Vajra. If they were Protoculture based, and this is a technological limitation that they did not conquer, would this not be an issue for them, as well?

This fold dislocation mechanism is only recently introduced to MacF. I wonder how the Zentrandi travel?

If my memory serves me right, when Misa, Hikaru and co. were captured by Breetai, they folded back to Budolza's base, and I think Misa must have said they were "traveling" for a few days (or more, not certain). I'm sure the distance between our solar system to Budolza's base must have been more than 12 light years for them to achieve a single fold without stopping in between. Either that, the reactors powering their warships are able to "punch" through the dislocation.

I suspect human technology, pretty much governed by economics, may not see the "punch through" effect as cost effective because exponential energy requirement is needed, hence they jump in short distances. Perhaps the Vajra has a cost effective method to do it that the humans have not discovered yet.

[Zinjo]

Pretty sure this is the right place for this, and I am a little surprised no one else (that I have seen) has brought this up yet. There has been alot of talk of the Vajra being some Protoculture based defense system, weapon system, what have you, because of the similarities to the APHOS in Zero. But at the beginning of episode 6 (just grabbed the Shinsen release, so it was fresh in my mind) it's stated that fold "Fault Surfaces" (not "dislocation", the text is actually in the animation) and energy consumption are limiting factors for all Protoculture derived civilizations. But in episode 7 we see these are definitely not limiting factors for the Vajra. If they were Protoculture based, and this is a technological limitation that they did not conquer, would this not be an issue for them, as well?

If I recall it was mentioned as PC derived civilizations, not necessarily the PC themselves. If they were/are affected by the faults then one could conclude that they had energy to spare in order to "push through" the faults on a regular basis. These are the same people that created Glockenspiel (or whatever the damn name was) who appeared capable of creating a black hole or singularity as his weapon.

If you are the race who authored the power system to begin with, and have had millenia to perfect it, it isn't impossible to think that you'd be able to overcome the fault issue much earlier than child races...

Then you have the PC army, the Zentreadi who benefited from this knowledge, eventhough they probably had no idea how it worked. I am noticing that the further the Zents advance their own tech, the less advanced it becomes from what it originally was. The QRau Lambda having gatling cannons instead of beam cannons on the forearms...

Edited May 28, 2008 by Zinjo

[kalvasflam]

From the descriptions so far and what's seen, fold dislocations might be like pockets of space that you can't fold through with human tech. Remember Luca's surprise as the Vajra battleship folded through the dislocation... this tells me that for humans, basically a dislocation is a null space that they have to traverse conventionally without fold. May be the dislocations are somethings that can be overcome given enough energy, or may be it necessitates a different technology altogether.

I wonder if dislocations are some things that can be mapped, or may be they appear and disappear or even move around over time. But not enough information on it for now.

[Zinjo]

From the descriptions so far and what's seen, fold dislocations might be like pockets of space that you can't fold through with human tech. Remember Luca's surprise as the Vajra battleship folded through the dislocation... this tells me that for humans, basically a dislocation is a null space that they have to traverse conventionally without fold. May be the dislocations are somethings that can be overcome given enough energy, or may be it necessitates a different technology altogether.

I wonder if dislocations are some things that can be mapped, or may be they appear and disappear or even move around over time. But not enough information on it for now.

I suspect the Fault / Dislocations are akin to gravity wells or black holes. A force capable of affecting space/time thus affecting how Super Dimension space and regular space interact. Kind of like a sand bar in the water.

[Major Focker]

If they were Protoculture based, and this is a technological limitation that they did not conquer, would this not be an issue for them, as well?

logically speaking, it should-- if vajra are indeed protoculture based and it is an established fact that all protoculture based technology have this limitation.

that it was a premise articulated at the start of the episode does not make it the absolute truth. it may simply be a case of humanity making a bold (though possibly misguided) assumption that they know all about protoculture technology. or a bit milder, it may be interpreted as : based on all available evidence to date, exhibits of protoculture based technology share a common limitation with regards to fold transportation..

it would not be surprising that as humanity learns more about protoculture (either through ongoing research, or encountering more/newer variants of protoculture technology) that they would discover that some of these limitations were not actual, but just perceived to be so given the knowledge available at the time.

closest real world example i can think of is electrical transmission. for a while scientist were fretting that they were rapidly approaching the physical limit of conducting electricity through wires... then they discovered some materials at cool temperatures had superconducting properties..then later they discovered temperature wasn't a limitation either and began to develop room temperature superconductors.

going back to macross, fold travel is relatively new to humanity despite the rapid strides and accelerated pace due to contact with protoculture races. for all we know, the zentraedi technology from which human fold science is largely based, may actually be outdated tech in terms of protoculture advancement. humanity just happened to encounter them first.

OR, vajra may not be protoculture at all

[Final Vegeta]

But in episode 7 we see these are definitely not limiting factors for the Vajra. If they were Protoculture based, and this is a technological limitation that they did not conquer, would this not be an issue for them, as well?

I thought there could be a possibility that Vajra came from another galaxy.

FV

[wolfx]

Fold dislocations sound like warpstorms right about now.

[Duke Togo]

Fold dislocations sound like warpstorms right about now.

No no, its "fault surface", not dislocation.

[Mr March]

I think you're definitely onto something there Duke. That's a good deduction.

I'm making up a Macropedia entry for the Fold Dislocation, so I'll make sure to use Fold Fault as the more accurate term for it.

Speaking of Macross-Related Technology, I just wanted to post the very interesting comments below from a member at animesuki.com forums. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php...363#post1617363

Quite an intresting read, especially for people like me who don't have the material this poster (ReddyRedWolf) has.

That's some great stuff grss1982. I'm going to have to ask that fella if I can add his translation to the Macropedia.

[azrael]

I think you're definitely onto something there Duke. That's a good deduction.

I'm making up a Macropedia entry for the Fold Dislocation, so I'll make sure to use Fold Fault as the more accurate term for it.

That's some great stuff grss1982. I'm going to have to ask that fella if I can add his translation to the Macropedia.

One of the great things about being here for such a long time is you have an idea of where this stuff comes from:

http://162.40.101.35/macross2050/index.html

Sourcebook #3: The Galaxy.

[Mr March]

Well, that explains why I can't find any mention of such a book in the MW books section. This had me looking through the entire section. Damn RPGs, almost got me again

[wolfx]

Well if they included this line, you'd already suspect the legitimacy of the book/article.

Orguss Manufacturing Conglomerate – This group designed the VF-O-1A Orguss Valkyrie as a heavy combat mecha that combined the roles of the variable fighter and the destroid. Unfortunately the design had inherent flaws and not many units were made.

[vanpang]

well if the info are accurate, the Macross RPG community has a very good information source !

[Mr March]

Actually, they are rather "accurate" if ultimately uninformative.

Looking critically over the company list and descriptions, they are just very basic extrapolations based upon official facts. Just read the Valkyrie or Destroid profiles on the Macross Compendium or my own website and you'll see these company names mentioned within. They just took the context in which those companies were mentioned in the official literature and worked backwards to create a very brief, very basic company profile for each instance.

[Fade Rathnik]

Maybe these Faults are caused by the gravity well at the center of the universe. And there are less of them the further out you go, it could be that reason the PC went to the core in the first place, because they knew that only they could move quickly in that are of space heading off trespassers with some form of security force. And left the outer arms to the Zentradi and the Supervision Army who could move freely there but not in the core. Why also Fold dislocation can be reasoned as a newer problem, M7 could have been not quite far enough in yet that the Faults were a noticeable problem.

[Mr March]

I don't know if fold faults are necessarily "new" in as much as they are "relevant". It's like any technology introduced in Macross or any other sci-fi show; nothing specific is really learned about fictional technology until it becomes necessary to add detail to serve a plot point.

[Zinjo]

Maybe these Faults are caused by the gravity well at the center of the universe. And there are less of them the further out you go, it could be that reason the PC went to the core in the first place, because they knew that only they could move quickly in that are of space heading off trespassers with some form of security force. And left the outer arms to the Zentradi and the Supervision Army who could move freely there but not in the core. Why also Fold dislocation can be reasoned as a newer problem, M7 could have been not quite far enough in yet that the Faults were a noticeable problem.

I'd suspect that the core is where the PC originated from and that the faults are as random as gravity wells or black holes. If there is indeed more faults at the core then it would support the idea that they are created by black holes, singularities, and the like, since that is where the stars are at their densest.

[Graham]

Another theory. Perhaps the Vajra, or whoever is controlling them have the technology to create these fold dislocations and created this one intentionally, to slow down the movement of the Frontier and Galaxy fleets.

This could explain why the Vajra carrier appeared to be immune to the effects of the Fold Dislocation.

Graham

[d3v]

Another theory. Perhaps the Vajra, or whoever is controlling them have the technology to create these fold dislocations and created this one intentionally, to slow down the movement of the Frontier and Galaxy fleets.

This could explain why the Vajra carrier appeared to be immune to the effects of the Fold Dislocation.

Graham

At the very least, we know they have the ability to counter them which is probably linked somehow to the "super dimension purple crystals" (as I shall call them until we get an official name for what they are).

Speaking of folds though, I've been wondering if there's a reason why the folds in Frontier look very different from those we've seen in previous Macross shows. In the past, ships and other craft (including any close by) would simply just energize and blink out of where they were. In Frontier, it seems that folding opens a sort of gate and seems to imply that the craft would have to be moving towards it to actually fold. This contradicts what we've seen in past shows where stationary craft simply just fold in and out.

[Renato]

At the very least, we know they have the ability to counter them which is probably linked somehow to the "super dimension purple crystals" (as I shall call them until we get an official name for what they are).

Speaking of folds though, I've been wondering if there's a reason why the folds in Frontier look very different from those we've seen in previous Macross shows. In the past, ships and other craft (including any close by) would simply just energize and blink out of where they were. In Frontier, it seems that folding opens a sort of gate and seems to imply that the craft would have to be moving towards it to actually fold. This contradicts what we've seen in past shows where stationary craft simply just fold in and out.

This doesn't really answer your question but the styling is very similar to the warp gates seen in Cowboy Bebop, and Kawamori designed the theory behind those, too. Remember that in that show, the moon was destroyed due to some kind of gate accident; I was reminded of this when Ozma said that the official explanation of Ranka's parents' death was a fold error. So maybe he wanted to retcon the fold system in Macross to make it more similar to his more real-world (plausible) rendition of hyperspace used in Cowbop. However, I agree with the issue of relevancy, this sounds like it will play a key part in the plot later on.

[d3v]

This doesn't really answer your question but the styling is very similar to the warp gates seen in Cowboy Bebop, and Kawamori designed the theory behind those, too. Remember that in that show, the moon was destroyed due to some kind of gate accident; I was reminded of this when Ozma said that the official explanation of Ranka's parents' death was a fold error. So maybe he wanted to retcon the fold system in Macross to make it more similar to his more real-world (plausible) rendition of hyperspace used in Cowbop. However, I agree with the issue of relevancy, this sounds like it will play a key part in the plot later on.

But explanation for Ranka's parent's death was simply a cover-up for the first Vajra attack, (which we've already partly seen through Ranka's limited flashbacks).

[Mr March]

Actually, the space folds in Macross Frontier don't necessarily appear all that different from the way space folds were originally depicted in SDF Macross. Granted, DYRL? and later sequels like Macross Plus and Macross 7 remade the look of the space fold (such as the YF-19 and YF-21 fold boosters) or simplified them (like the Varauta ships blinking in and out). But as seen in SDF Macross, space folds were rather grand, large and bright affairs that often created "spheres" of super dimension energy around the space craft. Given the Macross Frontier is regularly paying homage to the original SDF Macross series, it's understandable that the space fold would be re-imagined.

[d3v]

Actually, the space folds in Macross Frontier don't necessarily appear all that different from the way space folds were originally depicted in SDF Macross. Granted, DYRL? and later sequels like Macross Plus and Macross 7 remade the look of the space fold (such as the YF-19 and YF-21 fold boosters) or simplified them (like the Varauta ships blinking in and out). But as seen in SDF Macross, space folds were rather grand, large and bright affairs that often created "spheres" of super dimension energy around the space craft. Given the Macross Frontier is regularly paying homage to the original SDF Macross series, it's understandable that the space fold would be re-imagined.

Hmm, that could explain it. I haven't seen SDFM in quite some time since I don't ahve a copy but I do have copies of DYRL, Plus and 7.

[Mark Nguyen]

Indeed, some folks were wondering why ships were moving when coming out of a fold, instead of just disappearing and reappearing. Truth be told, while in M7 most ships simply popped in and out, in SDFM most of the time they WERE moving. Macross herself popped out of a fold in the very first episode moving incredibly fast, resulting in her plowing into South Ataria Island. When Britai's fleet showed up later that same episode, they were similarly moving, albeit more controlled. Kamjin's introduction later on further reinforced the movement idea, with his squadron defolding in the middle of and sideswiping several of Britai's ships. When Bodolza's fleet moves around though, it seems very point-to-point, with the factory satellite being a further example, as was Macross's ill fated first fold.

In Macross II, Plus and 7, most space folding seemed of the blink in and out variety. But I think that movement into and out of a fold is an optional thing.

Mark

[Zinjo]

Indeed, some folks were wondering why ships were moving when coming out of a fold, instead of just disappearing and reappearing. Truth be told, while in M7 most ships simply popped in and out, in SDFM most of the time they WERE moving. Macross herself popped out of a fold in the very first episode moving incredibly fast, resulting in her plowing into South Ataria Island. When Britai's fleet showed up later that same episode, they were similarly moving, albeit more controlled. Kamjin's introduction later on further reinforced the movement idea, with his squadron defolding in the middle of and sideswiping several of Britai's ships. When Bodolza's fleet moves around though, it seems very point-to-point, with the factory satellite being a further example, as was Macross's ill fated first fold.

In Macross II, Plus and 7, most space folding seemed of the blink in and out variety. But I think that movement into and out of a fold is an optional thing.

Mark

Well in Bab5, the hyperspace travel was essentially travelling at regular speed, but hyperspace was like taking a shortcut through the galaxy. Possibly Super Dimension travel is the same way, thus a stationary fold is point to point, while moving through SD space allows greater distances to be travelled. Just a thought.