Macross Frontier Episode 6 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Zinjo]

Continuing the discussion of the VF-25/VF-171 vs. the VF-19/VF-22, Kawamori's only given us his real reasoning. In-continuity, we're just left with speculation, so here's mine:

When the UN Spacy became NUNS, NUNS might have been less than satisfied with the VF-19, and canceled the old Spacy's contract. We know for a fact that the YF-19 was difficult to fly, and I don't know what changes were made between between the YF-19 and the VF-19A that would have made a difference. As for the VF-19F/S, they obviously had significant revisions, and were just starting to enter service five years after Super Nova. The VF-19F/S, with its stubby little wings, might not have had the atmospheric performance they wanted. Wasn't that one of the reasons the VF-4 was dumped for the VF-5000?

Another thing to consider, using the US military branches as a model, is that different NUN military branches might be buying different variable fighters (just like how the Navy and the Air Force operate different planes), and even within a single branch multiple fighters could be in use (just like how the USAF is using the F-22, F-15, and F-16, in addition to bombers and other aircraft lacking the F designation). Frontier could be using the VF-171 because it's easy to fly and maintain, and perhaps requires less resources on the part of a fleet that gets minimal resupply, but for all we know forces on Eden or Earth are stocked with the VF-19.

As for the VF-22, it's not that surprising that we're not seeing it. Even though Max, Milia, and Diamond Force managed to get some, it was always clear that the VF-19 won Super Nova and that the UN would be buying VF-22s in very small numbers.

Kawamori's official reason for not using the Vf-19 was that it looked too much like a hero fighter to be the CF for this series. In continuity, anything is possible.

The VF-19 may have proven itself adept at a more SOCOM role in NUNS and thus relegated to that role, or as already suggested it may have proven to be too expensive to produce on a mass scale and was not fully adopted.

Another possiblity is that if indeed there was some sort of breakdown in unity among the colony worlds, the 19 simply took too long to produce and an easier to produce and deploy fighter was needed, so the VF-17 was redesigned and the factories retooled to produce the VF-171.

It is entirely possible that the VF-19 is still in use in other branches of the military or even SOCOM applications, but we prolly won't know from Frontier.

The VF-19F/S were optimized for space flight, hence the lack of swing wings, whereas the VF-19A/P were optimized for atmospheric flight.

As for the Galaxy not being a dome ship, Sheryl mentions it in Ep.5 that it is an enclosed chemical plant ship. Frontier is a Bio-plant ship thus the dome.

[grss1982]

The manga actually has much more VF-171 porn than the anime, especially chapters 1 & 5. Quite a lot of Battroid mode.

Graham

Already seen the manga. :-)

[RANTING]Now why has the manga that much VF-171 pr0n, but the anime has little to nothing. MORE VF-171 pr0n please. [/RANTING]

[Zinjo]

Lightning fanboyism aside. Some other contemporaries of the VF-11 that are better fighters than the Thud include the VF-14 and the VF-9.

Speaking of the VF-9, I'd equate the VF-25 to the VF-9 in terms of performance compared to peers and mission/purpose more than a main UNS fighter. Right now only a special ops unit / colony has purchased it. I don't recall seeing that this is the next gen NUNS VF.

I'd take exception to that. The VF-9 would be a smoldering hulk of metal every time it transformed into Battroid. Could it have a more awkward or clumbsy battroid transformation??

It's a beautiful fighter design, but I wish Kawamori would have been designing with Lego back then...

[Tobi54]

Does anyone know the type of mastering Satelight is using on Frontier? I have been wondering this since Bandai dropped the ball on the Blu-Ray release of Yukikaze, they used an upconverted version of the 480p source, I dont know the exact details behind this, like if this was the way the show was mastered to begin with, giving Bandai no other choice but to release what they had, or was it just them being lazy and using material that was ready for production. Thinking about this made me wonder about Frontier's Blu-Ray releases and the way the show it's been mastered in general, I'd apreciate any info regarding this, thanx.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1358/yukikaze.html

While Bandai Visual has comfortably spread all five AVC-encoded episodes of 'Yukikaze' across two dual-layer discs, the studio decided to forego properly remastering the series in 1080p and merely upscaled a 480p video source to 1080i

[Mr March]

Noyhauser

Why not discuss cost considerations as canon Macross fact? They are! The canon statistics for the variable fighters have already spoken many a time of cost considerations. Just read the Macross Compendium entires. One of the great things about Macross is it created a complete, realistic world with love and death, militaries and governments, money and fame. If one is going to analyze the military of Macross in any credible way, one must account for all the real world considerations of a modern military including supply, maintenance, logistics, deployment and yes, even cost.

Sorata

It's going well. The Game & Advanced Valkyrie section will be the most active for variable fighter profiles in the next update. The VF-14, VF-9, VF-3000, Neo-Glaug, Variable Glaug and new color schemes for some existing fighters are already completed and ready to go. I'm hoping to have an update out in a few weeks, I'm just waiting on some scans.

Tobi54

Well in my opinion, the whole idea to segregate the animation discussion to another thread IS the problem. The animation quality discussion was doing fine until this little objection came along. Now it's made a mountain out of an anthill, EVEYRBODY is getting in on it with an opinion and we got drama attached to it. The subject has even been derailed thanks to this undue attention and people are posting screen shots from GITS for crying out loud. The request should have been handled via personal message to a mod rather than stirring up controversy, IMO.

Batou

There's nothing wrong with reading a bit more into the mecha of Macross. It's a fun exercise in world creation, like fictional anthropology for those that like that kind of thing (myself included). However, I will agree that overall, the VF-11 Thunderbolt, the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II have had more than enough time to shine in Macross Plus and Macross 7 combined. I don't care if we never see them again, especially when a quality show like Macross Frontier is taking front and center. I'm curious about the fiction and the chronology and want more information, but I'm 100% totally fine with the way Macross Froniter is going, so far

Zinjollory

Oh yeah, that VF-9 is awful I just got through coloring them. Gawd, what an ugly Valkyrie. I don't even like the fighter mode that much though I'll admit it's the best mode of the three. The damn thing look's ready to fly apart at any given moment. I don't know what the heck is going on with the GERWALK mode

[Tobi54]

Tobi54

Well in my opinion, the whole idea to segregate the animation discussion to another thread IS the problem. The animation quality discussion was doing fine until this little objection came along. Now it's made a mountain out of an anthill, EVEYRBODY is getting in on it with an opinion and we got drama attached to it. The subject has even been derailed thanks to this undue attention and people are posting screen shots from GITS for crying out loud. The request should have been handled via personal message to a mod rather than stirring up controversy, IMO.

What are you talking about? The whole thing got out of hand WAY before the request was posted, and there have been MAYBE 3-4 replys to it since, I'm sorry but trying to say that the discussion got worse because of the request is pretty ridiculous. The people doing what you say completely ignored the post to begin with, this whole message is making a mountain out of anthill, not the request. Talk about exaggerating.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Tobi54

[Mr March]

Not from where I'm standing. The last few pages since the suggestion have been going so crazy to the point that Graham had to ask everyone to stop. And it likely wouldn't have gotten that bad if everyone wasn't enticed to jump into the whole mess and take their shots. But that's my take on it and I'm not wasting any more time on it.

[Tobi54]

Not from where I'm standing. The last few pages since the suggestion have been going so crazy to the point that Graham had to ask everyone to stop. And it likely wouldn't have gotten that bad if everyone wasn't enticed to jump into the whole mess and take their shots. But that's my take on it and I'm not wasting any more time on it.

Maybe you're standing in the wrong place, I'm going to say this again, the people posting screenshots, and "going crazy" ignored the post to begin with, they dismissed as not needed and kept on doing what they were doing BEFORE, yet according to you, that post is the root of all evil, give me a break.

[ChronoReverse]

The VF-4 that it replaced was a superior fighter, just old, and probably a maintenance hog. It had a lot of legacy systems from the VF-1 (verniers, avionics, etc) and systems that were just unique to the fighter design (beam cannons, missiles.) Probably very much like the F-14 towards the end of its service: outclassed in many respects by more modern aircraft, a maintainers nightmare, but still the best dogfighter ever.

The F-14 was not the "best dogfighter" ever. Top Gun gave it a reputation far higher for that role than it ought to have. Do you really think such a heavy plane could manuever that well?

I do love the look of the F-14 though and it's also the only fighter than can carry the almighty (j/k) Phoenix AIM-54

Edited May 14, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[MilSpex]

The story and pacing of this episode was excellent. This show feels more and more like Macross very early. I didnt get the same feeling until the very end of Macross 7.

It was cool how SMS was comandeered by NUNS due to wartime. Makes the heroes more duty bound and Macross like.

The character animation was bad in this episode and the CG of the SMS mothership pulling out of the dock reminded me why I hate CG. They tried to make it look more heavy and textured by shaking the image a little but it still didn`t look right. It still looked too smooth for a hulking spaceship. Interesting that in Starship Troopers CG was used for the bugs (which I think looked good) but the spaceships were all properaly filmed 10 foot long scratchbuilt models. This was to make them look heavy and massive in filming because CG just doesn`t do that job, even 10 years later in 2008. I think the CG on smaller ships/valkyries has been working pretty well in Macross Frontier so far.

The story is so good tho that these things didn`t really bother me.

Not really looking forward to next weeks fight if theres gonna be more shitty CG on large ships tho.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Huh? Other than the other bunk that you just said, this right there takes the cake. The F-14 wasn't a dogfighter, it was an interceptor, more accurately, it was a missile delivery system for the Phoenix AAM. If we're talking about a pure knife fighter, the most proven one is the F-15 Strike Eagle.

No the F-14 could dogfight well in good hands. It was a multirole carrier fighter, you can say interceptor, and it did a fine job at that, but it was always meant to be multi role. Strike Eagle as a pure knife fighter? Are you kidding me? If you are going that route, the best one is the F-16A.

Still waiting to watch this episode. I hope I see it soon, as 7 should be premiering this week.

[wolfx]

Kawamori's official reason for not using the Vf-19 was that it looked too much like a hero fighter to be the CF for this series. In continuity, anything is possible.

Sauce?

Where/when did he say this is the official reason?

Another person mentioned that he didn't use the VF-19 because it looked too much like the VF-25.

Official reason or not, i don't agree that they look too much like hero fighters. With abit of editing and stylistic changes, they'll look like cannon fodders as well. Less flashy paint schemes will definately help. Besides showing the VF-25 outperforming the VF-19s will definately put the Excalibur in its place.

[Mr March]

Tobi54

Way I see it, that response is the gold star for my opinion. Blood is up and just keeps getting worse with each post, like I said. I'm out.

Wolfx

I'm not so sure about that other colors would work. The VF-25 is already using a broad range of colors; the White and Red, Grey and Yellow, green, blue and cannon fodder brown. There's not much left for the VF-19/VF-22 to use that would fit along with the more military color scheme like the ones being used for the Valkyries in Macross Frontier. They can't really go all out with the garish schemes of Macross 7, so there's not much left. I bet Kawamori and Co. even had a big debate about Luca's craft, but ultimately went with it despite similarities to the VF-171 and hoped the differences in the craft would be enough to differentiate them.

[eugimon]

To chime in on the Tobi request... posting screen shots of other anime was just a natural evolution of the discussion that wolfx. me and others were having. The central argument was that MF's animation quality was subpar compared to other current anime. Some of us disagreed and cited shows that we felt had similar animation problems. Some people said that we were wrong and then screenshots of MF were posted up to prove their point. Why wouldn't that result in a our own screenshots?

Anyways, the level of rhetoric hasn't increased or decreased, imo, since the beginning of this arguement way back in episode 4. Wolfx and I have been saying the same thing to each other now for a while. I fully agree that it is a DEAD HORSE and that it's time to move on but I disagree that it's becoming heated or any more personal since the beginning.

[Tobi54]

Tobi54

Way I see it, that response is the gold star for my opinion. Blood is up and just keeps getting worse with each post, like I said. I'm out.

There was nothing wrong with my response, if you had a valid point I'd have no problem giving you credit for it, but implying that the request started this whole thing has no merit whatsoever.

[Duke Togo]

Sauce?

Where/when did he say this is the official reason?

Actually, he is right, Kawamori did say that.

[MisaForever]

So, Episode 7 thread?

[azrael]

Actually, he is right, Kawamori did say that.

It in the production notes about the VF-171 in the Compendium.

[Zinjo]

It in the production notes about the VF-171 in the Compendium.

Was it not from the May NewType Macross F Q&A section?

Where he also answered that reason why Ranka's hair moves was because some Zentreadi can apparently do that...

[Duke Togo]

Was it not from the May NewType Macross F Q&A section?

Where he also answered that reason why Ranka's hair moves was because some Zentreadi can apparently do that...

Yeah, I believe you are correct.

[Vinnie]

The F-14 was not the "best dogfighter" ever. Top Gun gave it a reputation far higher for that role than it ought to have. Do you really think such a heavy plane could manuever that well?

I do love the look of the F-14 though and it's also the only fighter than can carry the almighty (j/k) Phoenix AIM-54

LOL Okay. Not really. I suppose I'm just nostalgic for 80s naval aviation (or what I can remember as a kid.) Back when a carrier air wing had as many different types of aircraft on board as it did squadrons.

Also not fair for me to call the VF-11 junk...just bitter that it replaced the VF-4 before it had a chance to be in the limelight. I do draw a lot of comparisons from the VF-4 to the F-14, especially since both have long range missiles designed only for the airframe (or are airframes designed to carry the missile.)

Back more towards the topic at hand (although still not much to do with Ep 6.) The VF-25 doesn't sound like the next generation UN fighter from the Compendium entry, but something for Frontier's defense forces. That's why I'm wondering if it's analogous to the VF-9. The 9 was supposed to be a low-cost fighter for colonies within the UNS, that beat the VF-4 in terms of maneuverability. It seems to to outperform the current Main VF, is in the hands of a PMC, and has the modularity to accomodate any budget.

[Noyhauser]

Noyhauser

Why not discuss cost considerations as canon Macross fact? They are! The canon statistics for the variable fighters have already spoken many a time of cost considerations. Just read the Macross Compendium entires. One of the great things about Macross is it created a complete, realistic world with love and death, militaries and governments, money and fame. If one is going to analyze the military of Macross in any credible way, one must account for all the real world considerations of a modern military including supply, maintenance, logistics, deployment and yes, even cost.

Umm March, thats my point. I've (and you) been talking about this for like three years now. All of a sudden EVERYBODY is talking about it as canon.

[Noyhauser]

LOL Okay. Not really. I suppose I'm just nostalgic for 80s naval aviation (or what I can remember as a kid.) Back when a carrier air wing had as many different types of aircraft on board as it did squadrons.

Also not fair for me to call the VF-11 junk...just bitter that it replaced the VF-4 before it had a chance to be in the limelight. I do draw a lot of comparisons from the VF-4 to the F-14, especially since both have long range missiles designed only for the airframe (or are airframes designed to carry the missile.)

You're one step ahead of yourself. The VF-11 didn't replace the VF-4; that was the VF-5000, which the VF-11 replaced.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Noyhauser

[Master Dex]

It seems I revived that old VF-171 vs VF-19 discussion with a vengeance... but I go away for one night and there is 3 more pages, lol, I'm amazing I can keep up with all these threads (probably because I haven't posted much until recently).

I'm just sticking with my theory that the 19 and 22 are still out there probably, but Frontier doesn't have them for whatever reason and we probably won't see them in Frontier, nor do we need to with the sexy VF-25 guarding Frontier's ships. However I do admit I wouldn't mind seeing the 19 and the 22 in shiny new CGI, but I agree with Mr March and others that we probably won't and I can live with that (unless Earth sends a special shipment of non-cannon fodder pilots to help out with a mission or something...).

Apart from that, my speculation on the VF-19 and co. is done.

[ComicKaze]

Wouldn't allowing military groups and colonies have VF-19s and VF-22s be a huge risk? The YF-19 and YF-21 were able to evade Earth's defense satellites and as well in VFX-2 assuming the events are canon Gilliam and Aegis were able to also sneak through Earth's defenses.

So let's just give them to a band of rougue teenage misfits so they can have their own band???

[MisaForever]

Actually it's interesting that we're having a MECHA discussion in here at all since there's a thread for that. C'mon guys, use the thread you created for this.

[ComicKaze]

Then the episode 4 you downloaded must be entirely different than the one I did.

As for the posts calling for a separate thread to discuss animation issues, well, I just think that's silly. What we saw in episode 6 may be an isolated case. We may only see it for an episode or two, we might not see this problem again for the rest of the series. The discussion is totally on topic, as we are discussing the art and animation of episode 6.

Episode 4 was just filled with so much CG a lot of you didn't notice how badly the characters looked. I have posted comparison pictures earlier in the threads and can come back with much more (except certain people will get whiny about it because they think it gets in the way of their "discussion"). Episode 4 looks very much the same team that did Episode 6.

[MisaForever]

Episode 4 was just filled with so much CG a lot of you didn't notice how badly the characters looked. I have posted comparison pictures earlier in the threads and can come back with much more (except certain people will get whiny about it because they think it gets in the way of their "discussion"). Episode 4 looks very much the same team that did Episode 6.

But it doesn't matter so please move on.

[ComicKaze]

As for the Galaxy not being a dome ship, Sheryl mentions it in Ep.5 that it is an enclosed chemical plant ship. Frontier is a Bio-plant ship thus the dome.

That has nothing to do with the dome but merely the system the ship uses to recycle material including water, oxygen, waste, and other bio-organic matter. In the first episode it shows the map of the ships flying across the galaxy and the Macross Frontier ship AND the Galaxy ship both have the same designation and picture icon - and it's a dome ship.

[ComicKaze]

But it doesn't matter so please move on.

I'm guessing that's sarcasm

Putting a chilling effect on discussing animation quality is just the wrong thing to do as is segregating it. I'm convinced the quality will go back up as episode 4 was bad, 5 was great, and 6 was back to episode 6 (or slighly worse). I'll be vindicated on that. The mere fact that animation changes in quality from episode to episode makes it logical that it be discussed in each individual episode thread.

[MisaForever]

I'm guessing that's sarcasm

Putting a chilling effect on discussing animation quality is just the wrong thing to do as is segregating it. I'm convinced the quality will go back up as episode 4 was bad, 5 was great, and 6 was back to episode 6 (or slighly worse). I'll be vindicated on that. The mere fact that animation changes in quality from episode to episode makes it logical that it be discussed in each individual episode thread.

Well I'm not going to bring this up anymore but if the video quality stayed the same as episode 4..... are those of you who say it's terrible going to just stop watching Macross Frontier just because of the quality? Just think about that.

[ComicKaze]

Well I'm not going to bring this up anymore but if the video quality stayed the same as episode 4..... are those of you who say it's terrible going to just stop watching Macross Frontier just because of the quality? Just think about that.

Of course we're not going to stop. That's the ultimate faulty and weak argument of those people who criticize the critics and want them to stop discussing the merits AND FAULTS of whatever show they are watching. "So uhh, because you think this and this sucks, why don't you stop watching it???". Internet discussions always fall back to that for a certain group. And the rest will keep on talking. What is the harm?

[Duke Togo]

Alright, we get the idea. Episode 7 comes out tomorrow, can we move on?

[USCOLMRNE]

No the F-14 could dogfight well in good hands. It was a multirole carrier fighter, you can say interceptor, and it did a fine job at that, but it was always meant to be multi role. Strike Eagle as a pure knife fighter? Are you kidding me? If you are going that route, the best one is the F-16A.

Still waiting to watch this episode. I hope I see it soon, as 7 should be premiering this week.

F-14's would take out F-15's without even using Phoenix missiles. She was big and heavy but could move. I agree the F-16 was a good knife fighter

[USCOLMRNE]

It seems I revived that old VF-171 vs VF-19 discussion with a vengeance... but I go away for one night and there is 3 more pages, lol, I'm amazing I can keep up with all these threads (probably because I haven't posted much until recently).

I'm just sticking with my theory that the 19 and 22 are still out there probably, but Frontier doesn't have them for whatever reason and we probably won't see them in Frontier, nor do we need to with the sexy VF-25 guarding Frontier's ships. However I do admit I wouldn't mind seeing the 19 and the 22 in shiny new CGI, but I agree with Mr March and others that we probably won't and I can live with that (unless Earth sends a special shipment of non-cannon fodder pilots to help out with a mission or something...).

Apart from that, my speculation on the VF-19 and co. is done.

I am waiting for Isamu to get sent to SDAC-25 Frontier in a VF-19.