Macross Frontier Episode 4 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Just out of curiosity, which characters do you see as copies?

Aside from the colors of the valkyries they fly, I don't see any similarities to the cast of SDF Macross thus far.

Well Ranka is Minmay, Catherine Glass is Misa (and again the daughter of a big fish, only she don't have the hots for Hikaru/Alto so far) and Ozma is Roy Fokker to name just the key characters. Hell, even Ranka's cell phone reminds me of another Macross character.

Sheryl is the only really original character and so far I sympatize with her spoiled child style.

Maybe Ranka doesn't have Minmay's dark hair or Ozma Roy's drinking problems, but they all play the same roles in both stories. Now compare Frontier with Mac Plus or even Mac 7, and you'll see what I mean. Macross Plus it's a good example of how far you can go in terms of plot and characters within those three basic premises (Valks, songs and triangle).

As for the colors of the Valkyries, that's pure sentai and it's okay by me. The hero is usually identified with the color red, but Ozma's 25 sporting black and yellow stripes don't tell me it's a coincidence.

Again, I'm not here to antagonize. That's just my humble opinion and I could be mistaken, so don't mind me. But it seems to me that Big West went too conservative this time.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[Sketch]

Well Ranka is Minmay, Catherine Glass is Misa (and again the daughter of a big fish, only she don't have the hots for Hikaru/Alto so far) and Ozma is Roy Fokker to name just the key characters. Hell, even Ranka's cell phone reminds me of another Macross character.

I don't see it at all, none of the Frontier characters are anything like the SDF Macross characters. I mean if being a career military woman makes you a Misa, or being a squad leader makes you a Focker; then Lucy and Kinryu were just copies of SDF Macross characters as well. Perhaps in future sequels they can remove squad leaders and female officers completely as so not to draw comparison

The only one where I can see the connection is Ranka, she's an aspiring singer who works in a Chinese restraunt which is an obvious homage to the original. However in every other respect she is far, far, from being Minmay and her role in the plot thus far would indicate that her character is going in a much different direction.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Sketch

[DJ Loe Kee]

shinsen subs ep. 4 is out now.

[eugimon]

I don't see it at all, none of the Frontier characters are anything like the SDF Macross characters. I mean if being a career military woman makes you a Misa, or being a squad leader makes you a Focker; then Lucy and Kinryu were just copies of SDF Macross characters as well. Perhaps in future sequels they can remove squad leaders and female officers completely as so not to draw comparison

The only one where I can see the connection is Ranka, she's an aspiring singer who works in a Chinese restraunt which is an obvious homage to the original. However in every other respect she is far, far, from being Minmay and her role in the plot thus far would indicate that her character is going in a much different direction.

yeah, I agree. Those characters may be in similar roles, but their personalities are quite different as are their respective relationships to one another.

[akt_m]

There's no minovsky particles to justify melee combat, no superheroes with magic powers(despite the zentradi's belief to the contrary), no magic bullets.

Basara???? He could sing and pilot a valkyrie by using a Guitar Flight stick, and at the same time top military trained pilots. He also could shoot a red beam while singing.

[azrael]

Basara???? He could sing and pilot a valkyrie by using a Guitar Flight stick, and at the same time top military trained pilots. He also could shoot a red beam while singing.

[jenius]

True, Basara was a Macross super hero as portrayed in Mac7. We're also on the verge of just having to accept that G-forces are going to be overcome by some technology by some race. I can just see it now... Protoculture pilots will sit in embryonic sacks with a fluid that nullifies G forces in their bio-mechs... I'll bet we already saw that in MacZero.

[Sundown]

But I actually like what's happening. Kawamori is treating the original material with respect - and he understands that change must be gradual; if certain things we love and cherish are to be changed - they must do so for well established reasons...

See, I'm much more cynical. Karamori has already somewhat mangled the original material with takes on Macross that I'd hardly classify as "respectful", and it now seems that they're back to mining what worked in the original-- so closely it feels as if they're just trying to replicate the magic and charm of the originals, sometimes scene for scene, instead of bringing in new things with the same spirit, coherence, and creativity. The characters and dialogue are a step above Zero, and maybe Mac+, or even Mac 7-- Ranka's character is actually decently written and has some depth and maturity beyond the cutesyness-- but so far, I'm finding it a more stylized, more sexualized, less mature and paler imitation of SDF. It's still watchable and enjoyable, but the homages feel to me like a begging for a legitimacy it knows it's in danger of losing, or worse, just a recycling of material that worked for a generation that hasn't been exposed to it yet.

[Sergorn]

See, I'm much more cynical. Karamori has already somewhat mangled the original material with takes on Macross that I'd hardly classify as "respectful", and it now seems that they're back to mining what worked in the original-- so closely it feels as if they're just trying to replicate the magic and charm of the originals, sometimes scene for scene, instead of bringing in new things with the same spirit, coherence, and creativity.

Sorry but I just don't see that. At -all-. Sure there are some scenes mimicking SDFM... but for the most they're just nice references, nothing more. There are FAR more differences between the original Macross and Frontier, than similar things. The characters are way different, the love triangle seems nothing like the one in the original series, the plot sure seems to be taking a different route, and you can't even begin to compare the Vajra to the Zentradi.

Personnaly but I certainly see creativity in Macross Frontier - it's bringing new and unique stuff the Macross universe, while at the same time taking the best things from the previous series and binding them together in a unique style.

Claiming that Frontier is just basically ripping of the original series.... you'll have to excuse me but nay, we must be watching a different Macross Frontier.

-Sergorn

[chrono]

I'm normally too busy discussing toys to visit these sections, but I just caught up with Frontier and there's a couple of tings I want to get out of my chest.

Not to polemisize or anything, I understand most people here is partial to anything Macross, but so far I've found Frontier a poor remake of more successful installments of the franchise.

I feel the same way. None of the mains have much depth beyond their stereotypes and are usually boring to watch. Virtually no plot other than "We're expanding to perverse humanity." theme, and to boot the only "interesting" bit is Klan who is little more than a gimmick secondary character. So far it's Macross 7.1.

But you really can't expect much from a scriptwriter who has little history beyond the My-Hime and Code Geass animes...

[Macross007]

I just saw the Shinsen subs for episode 4 and their are suggesting that it's the 12th Miss Macross Frontier contest while AIA & I-Z subs are suggesting the contrary (20th Miss Macross contest) Who is saying the truth ?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Macross007

[Macross007]

I just saw the Shinsen subs for episode 4 and their are suggesting that it's the 12th Miss Macross Frontier contest while AIA & I-Z subs are suggesting the contrary (20th Miss Macross contest) Who is saying the truth ?

Forget it guys. I just found my answer.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Macross007

[Graham]

Damn, zero peers and zero seeds for the Shinsen ep 4. I'm never gonna get it at this rate

Graham

[DJ Loe Kee]

^i think something is wrong with the seeds, i've been seedin' for hours and i just turned off utorrent so that i can surf the net (utorrent slows down my web surfin').

edit:

i'm seedin' if anybody needs it. i'll upload 2, 3 & 4 to megaupload/flyupload tomorrow.

Edited May 6, 2008 by DJ Loe Kee

[azrael]

Damn, zero peers and zero seeds for the Shinsen ep 4. I'm never gonna get it at this rate

*looks at Shinsen BT page* 582 seeders, 514 leechers ......I think something is wrong at your end....

[jenius]

We're expanding to perverse humanity."

YES, humanity needs to be more perverse! They're definitely laying the homages to the original series on WAY thick at this point. For all of you who think they're not over-doing it, imagine the series thusfar without ANY homages. It'd be a pretty thin skeleton of a story. So yes, there are a ton of differences to find within the homages but it definitely is relying pretty heavily on the original series thusfar. I've been okay with it through 4 episodes but I'm really hoping we see a drastic thinning of homages going forward.

[Graham]

*looks at Shinsen BT page* 582 seeders, 514 leechers ......I think something is wrong at your end....

I've been using BitTornado, but I'm wondering if there is any better software that anybody can recommend?

Graham

[Graham]

Gundam is really hit and miss, especially the Tomino stuff.

The 3 movie version of MS Gundam as well as most of the UC OAV & Movies and a couple of notable AU's (Turn A, and 00) were really, really good. However the UC tv shows go from mediocre to terrible (Z > ZZ > V). All 3 of those shows were so incredibly drawn out and boring, they had one-dimensional characters, boring plots, boring factions and forced melodrama. Character deaths usually hit me hard, but in the UC TV shows I simply didn't care, because everyone was so completely interchangeable. Thats not to say they didn't have any redeeming factors. Z had Quattro, ZZ had Haman Karn, V had... well it sucked hard but the mobile suits were cool. It's like Tomino somehow fluked out when creating Char, Amuro, and Lalah; because was never able to create a compelling cast again (until he returned to the helm for Turn A).

To put this in perspective, I just started watching Eureka 7, and there has been more character development, and plot movement in 4 episodes than in 40 episodes of Victory Gundam. No joke.

As we are back to talking Gundam again, here's my take.

Hated: Original MSG, Z, ZZ, Turn A, G, X, Wing, SEED, Destiny, & 00.

Liked: V & 0083 Stardust Memory (despite the whiney, overly angsty leads in 0083).

Loved 08th MST, 0080 War in the Pocket & CCA.

Graham

[dreamweaver13]

I'm having trouble understanding some people's severe distaste for the homages in macrossF. I believe there must be a distinction between homages, and recycling storylines. I mean, does Macross F tell basically the same story? or is it telling a different story albeit with some homages to the original series. I think it's the latter, and that's not a bad thing, in my opinion.

So far the plot line of macF is quite different. and while it has its homage moments, do these moments really change the plot? are they forcing the plot to change just to contour to the macross homages? i don't think so. alto doesn't have to save ranka the same way hikaru did it. he could have just saved her, and it wouldn't make a difference to the plot. Did the ms macross homage change the plot? not really, ranka didn't win anyway, so she's not gonna be a star via that route. at this point, we don't even know if she's gonna be a star at all. sure, alto was a civilian that became a pilot. but this time, alto WANTED to become a pilot. he wasn't forced upon it by Ozma (supposedly Fokker reincarnation) and certainly not by Ranka (supposedly Minmei). And besides, SMS isn't military anyway. sure, there's an idol in this series, but is she behaving like minmei did? not at all. Did the time that alto sheryl and ranka spend trapped in a hold change their relationships forever, in a way that would change the storyline? maybe, maybe not. they weren't really in there that long, and i don't think anyone fell in love with anyone during that time. not yet, anyway. sure, ranka sang kyun kyun, but so did Myung's friend in Mac+. that wasn't really a big deal.

My guess is we're just too immersed in original macross so we notice all these things. some of us like it (i love it. it's been 25 freaking years since SDF macross, i say give me some of that again!!). some of us are bothered by it. to each his own. but to say that kawamori is just recycling the storyline is quite unfair, i think. He took 25 years to do this. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is not merely cashing in on an old formula. why are we so critical that kawamori is replicating the magic of the old series "instead of bringing in new things with the same spirit, coherence, and creativity". It's not as if this is the direct sequel to macross. this is 25 years after. in the meantime, there was macross plus, and macross 0, and to a lesser extent, mac7. in fact, i'd day it took them long enough to get here again.

I think the ultimate test to a good story is something that we can't apply ourselves: for a person who does not have a background of macross, and is watching MacrossF as a newbie, does he like the story? Will he like it as it stands on its own? Is it a good show? While we see tributes and homages, will he be taken out of the context of the story? As for me, i've recommended the series to several non-macross friends, and they have loved it. no "what the frack" moments. they just liked it. sometimes i try to explain why this particular scene is special for me, but i know that the trivia doesn't really matter. they liked it, homage or not.

so for some macross fans, why are those homages really that much of a bother? i just don't get it.

[jenius]

so for some macross fans, why are those homages really that much of a bother? i just don't get it.

Because we've seen it before. The Alto saving Ranka one is a good example. I didn't mind the Gerwalk mode ending of the first episode that was so similar to Macross because it was subtle, the shot itself is a nice homage. It just seemed to go too far when we once again having a girl falling perilously (even if upward) only to be saved by an opening cockpit yadayadayada. I've seen that before, it was great the first time. I like the minor homages but I don't like that sinister feeling that I start getting during an episode that makes me think I know what's going to happen next. That's what I'm really hoping Macross F avoids and Thank GOD Ranka didn't win Miss Macross. Still, did you know the moment Alto made plans to go see the competition he'd be called away half way through it? I bet you did because it was obvious within the context and because you'd seen it before under slightly different circumstances. I'm still on the fence, I think they're not getting too carried away just yet... but I do hope they break away 'cause I don't want to feel like I know what happens next, I like being surprised.

The point that these repeated elements are not akward to people unfamiliar with the show doesn't hold a lot of water. A remake is a brand new movie to someone who hasn't seen the original... it doesn't mean it should be billed as a sequel. Again though, I'm not saying I'm not liking MacF but I certainly see where the complaint is coming from.

[VFTF1]

But the homages are so well crafted that you DON'T know what's going to happen next. When Alto's hand reached for Ranka's - I fully expected him to catch her and...he didn't! And then he shot out on that rope to save her - that's a surprise.

Most of the homages are done that way - Episode 4 is no exception. Ranka is cute, Sheryl has been goading her and encouraging her, everyone is there for her, Alto is there for her, the judges comment on how cute she is - everything seems to be leading up to her becoming Miss Macross - and of course it's all just adrenalyn and unrealistic hopes that an average looking little waitress from a Chinese Restaurant who smells of pork on a daily basis could be a big star like Sheryl Nome - what was she thinking? ...

So the homages are great insofar as they play with us and play with our expectations - and end up taking the story in a different direction.

Also - the Gerwalk at the end of episode 1 with a girl to rescue is actually a fairly standard Macross image - remember that not only ddi it happen in SDF M, but more prominently in Zero, when Shin climbs into the VF0A to rescue Mao.

I agree with dreamweaver whole heartedly.

This series strikes a perfect balance between taking us back to a world we all loved and introducing new elements - it does so MUCH BETTER than, say, something like Transformers which, ever since Beast Machines, has just totally neglected the story line and gone into la la land.

I like what Macross Frontier does - it is very respectful of the best elements of the Macross Universe.

Also - the twists are interesting in another way:

Alto, in contradistinction to Hikaru, is not "good looking" in the traditional understanding of manliness. Ranka is not "hot" in the traditonal sense of femininity. Both of the lead characters are very much "outcasts" from the aesthetic norm - and perhaps this makes them all the more endearing.

I like the fact that the leads are designed with physical "flaws" that make them unique - and I like how Sheryl Nome, in all her "super model looks" actually looks like a walking cylocone half the time (not to mention Miss Macross who is so utterly void of individuality that it's a relief).

In fact, if anything, Miss Macross shows us just how much the show IS new. In our hearts, we all want to go back to those times when mankind was making its' first perilous journey through the stars, when a down-to-earth good looking girl from next door entered a singing contest and beat out the Holywood glam to become Miss Macross and then lived up to the hype by becoming a beacon of joy and hope to a war weary populace...

...But sadly - time marches on.

And like most great events, the Miss Macross Contest has become just another corporate commercial-thon where models and wannabe playboy bunnies conglomorate to make a mark in the vacuous world of fashion...

Episode 4, if anything, shatters our hopes for a rekindling of that nostalgic flame - it tells us that memories are just that - memories.

I like this way of dealing with the story very much.

VFTF1

[jenius]

Uh, Alto still caught Ranka... maybe there was a stylistic change but that doesn't really change the scene. Girl plummets to death, boy nearly dies saving her, both live, huzzah! Or the Miss Macross homage. Girl implores boy come to show, boy shows, boy gets called away, girl looks at a crucial time to find he's not there. Those are AWFULLY familiar scenes. By no means am I making the argument that MacF is just a rip-off of Macross, there are tons of nice differences, I just think it feels a bit too familiar at times. So far that hasn't turned me off too much but the series itself is never going to feel really fresh to me until I watch an episode that doesn't have a major plot element lifted from the first series (even if there is a nice twist on it). By the way, the "oh no we're trapped" homage I felt was much more fun in Mac F than it was in the original series so it's not all bad even when it is familiar (although the original was much more poignant and there's something to be said for that obviously).

[Sundown]

So far that hasn't turned me off too much but the series itself is never going to feel really fresh to me until I watch an episode that doesn't have a major plot element lifted from the first series (even if there is a nice twist on it). By the way, the "oh no we're trapped" homage I felt was much more fun in Mac F than it was in the original series so it's not all bad even when it is familiar (although the original was much more poignant and there's something to be said for that obviously).

Yes, most of the magic plot moments have so far been lifted pretty much straight from SDF, and without them, I personally can't find many memorable and brilliant moments of storytelling in Frontier, besides Ranka not winning Miss Macross (which I think does a lot for her character), and her singing in the mall (which also does a lot for her character). And like jenius mentions, the homages are so lengthy and close plot point to plot point as to be predictable.

The reason I'm cynical and accuse Kawamori of stealing old magic and presenting it to new audiences is because he has been taking Macross in directions drastically different from the feel of SDF for quite a while, not always to great success. For him to suddenly turn about face and essentially retell key moments in SDF with slight twists makes me suspect he's doing it out of pragmatism and economy, not out of artistic brilliance. The reason he took 25 years to finally go back to what made SDF work, and when he does do so, he nearly copies entire segments scene for scene-- is why I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

And can you really homage yourself? Isn't homage generally paying respect to work that isn't yours? Otherwise, isn't it essentially recycling?

And I'd say both Hikaru and Alto are actually typical "pretty-boy/dashing/cute kid" characters, although Alto is much more "Bishonen", which is a well-established anime tradition, and both Ranka and Minmei play on innocent/young anime stereotypes, with Ranka being much more typically "cutesy" and childlike than Minmei of course. But none of these characters are anime aesthetic outcasts. Instead, they all actually firmly belong to well established anime aesthetic archtypes.

"And like most great events, the Miss Macross Contest has become just another corporate commercial-thon where models and wannabe playboy bunnies conglomorate to make a mark in the vacuous world of fashion..."

And while I agree that Ranka not winning Miss Macross is an interesting commentary on the reality of commercialism and empty, corporate, sexualization of the event, where sometimes the underdog girl next door just can't win against the stereotypical, conceited buxom starlet regardless of how much heart she's got, it also serves as an ironic commentary on Macross Frontier itself, giving the series an excuse to feature more perky and bouncy boobage-- the sorts of stuff it continues to exploit even outside of the Miss Macross competition in situations featuring Sheryl and Nanase. If Macross Frontier condemns anything, it can't help but condemn itself. =) This is sort of akin to M7's implied condemnation of manufactured fame and formulaic music for the sake of commercialization as opposed to true expression and artistry, using none other than "Fire Bomber"-- a fictional band ironically designed to sell J-Pop and anime-related merchandise.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Sundown

[anim3vboi]

I liked the homages, but I wish they would start making a statement with their music. Music has always been a central theme in all the Macross series, and using the same song from SDF Macross to parallel with the storyline is a bit much, thats my only complaint. I would rather have them put a statement on their own music and have those songs parallel the story. One thing I absolutely loved about SDF Macross, was the way each song subtly set the mood for the situation/story at the time. The "kyun kyun" song in Mac+ was a small homage, but I felt MacF used it here as a central theme for the episode, which makes it much more than a nod to the original, but a lack of originality imo.

Other than that, I LOVE this series so far, and I can't wait to see how the plot unfolds!

[eugimon]

scene for scene? I'm sorry, that's a patently false statement and you know it. The only sequence that has come across so far as a direct re-imagining of SDFM was the alto/ranka save sequence.

Every other sequence has gone dramatically different.

"stuck" sequence: They didn't get lost they escaped being sucked out into space and people knew exactly where they were.. oh yeah and there were three of them.

"Miss Macross" Starts off similarly but not only does Ranka lose but notice how alto differs from Hikaru. Hikaru bumbles through his mission because his mind was on minmay and on the pagent where-as alto was very much on the job. Their attitudes towards being war are dramatically different as are their relationships with their wingmen and ozma/roy. The timing of the events are also different. When Hikaru sorties, he's already a pilot of some note having saved Misa as well as being promoted and given his own squadron, alto is still a trainee.

And that really is it. If you want to say that MF is copying or remaking SDFM point for point, where are the equivalents of 'daedalus attack', 'bye-bye mars' or 'longest birthday'?. Those three episodes had key moments that established Misa's character, her past and set up her relationship with Hikaru. Did MF do anything even remotely similar to establish sheryl and her relationship to Alto? Nope, they went on a date.

You're picking out some memorable moments and completely ignoring the many ways those moments differ from SDFM and you're ignoring all the myriad ways the show is completely different from SDFM.

And for all you people complaining of "loli" in MF, I'm still waiting for that screenshot of a loli moment. MF has about the same level of fanservice as gundam OO and FAR FAR FAR less than even Eureka 7 or hell, Macross 2.

[grss1982]

I've been using BitTornado, but I'm wondering if there is any better software that anybody can recommend?

Graham

O.T.:

utorrent might be worth a try.

[jenius]

"stuck" sequence: They didn't get lost they escaped being sucked out into space and people knew exactly where they were.. oh yeah and there were three of them.

"Miss Macross" Starts off similarly but not only does Ranka lose but notice how alto differs from Hikaru. Hikaru bumbles through his mission because his mind was on minmay and on the pagent where-as alto was very much on the job. Their attitudes towards being war are dramatically different as are their relationships with their wingmen and ozma/roy. The timing of the events are also different. When Hikaru sorties, he's already a pilot of some note having saved Misa as well as being promoted and given his own squadron, alto is still a trainee.

I'm definitely NOT arguing that all the new characters are meant to represent the old ones. That said, doesn't it feel to you like the Miss Macross episode played out a lot like "What would happen if Ranka tried to be Miss Macross instead of Minmay and Alto had to leave during the show instead of Hikaru?" The events then unfold but with the different characters and the outcome is essentially the same except Ranka doesn't win the contest and no spies escape in a pod. Besides that, all I'm arguing is that the events feel too familiar, not that they're carbon copies. If they were copies we'd all be complaining.

You're picking out some memorable moments and completely ignoring the many ways those moments differ from SDFM and you're ignoring all the myriad ways the show is completely different from SDFM.

I am certainly not ignoring the many differences, I've even pointed many of them out. The fact remains some key elements occasionally don't feel fresh. Again, I still like the show, I just hope they slim down the 'homages' a bit. Give me a camera angle that's familiar, give me a location that's familiar, I don't need events that seem lifted right from the original... but with a TWIST! "Ha, you totally thought Ranka was going to win Miss Macross but she didn't!" I only thought that because the rest of the episode was so familiar.

[azrael]

O.T.:

utorrent might be worth a try.

uTorrent or Azureus.

[kensei]

I use Bittorrent. I haven't had any problems, yet.

[00X]

The reason I'm cynical and accuse Kawamori of stealing old magic and presenting it to new audiences is because he has been taking Macross in directions drastically different from the feel of SDF for quite a while, not always to great success. For him to suddenly turn about face and essentially retell key moments in SDF with slight twists makes me suspect he's doing it out of pragmatism and economy, not out of artistic brilliance.

If Kawamori was doing it out of pragmatism and economy, then instead of SDF:M, shouldn't the key moments that he's "essentially retelling" be from Macross 7?

I mean, damn. Unless he forgot which one was the most popular Macross...

The events then unfold but with the different characters and the outcome is essentially the same except Ranka doesn't win the contest and no spies escape in a pod.

Wasn't Minmei being discovered and Wareralolikonda getting moved(Heh, heh...) by culture the whole outcome of the original "Miss Macross"?

Well... Lanka didn't win, and that Vajra ain't gonna be tellin' anybody about his 'special feeling', so I don't know how it could be called essentially the same. Sure, Alto and Hikaru both got their Valkyries wrecked, but was THAT the big important outcome...?

[jenius]

Well... Lanka didn't win, and that Vajra ain't gonna be tellin' anybody about his 'special feeling', so I don't know how it could be called essentially the same. Sure, Alto and Hikaru both got their Valkyries wrecked, but was THAT the big important outcome...?

Are we discussing the outcomes or the story? Think of it as trains. Say your board the same train on two different days but on one day you follow it to the next stop down. Will that make it feel like a brand new train to you? No, you'll just feel like you took the same train to a different location. Summary of the two episodes:

1) Please show up to Miss Macross

2) I'm competing in Miss Macross but these other girls are so much better at this than I am

3) I'll wow them with a song!

4) Oh no, the boy I like is missing!

5) Boy, it sure is incovenient I had to leave the show.

6) Oh no, bad guys!

7) Good, bad guys are defeated, but someone is going to need to drag me home.

(end similarities)

In one the girl wins, in the other she loses

9) In one the bad guy is totally dead, in the other the bad guys escape in an emergency vehicle.

So, you're right, the stories are only about 77% the same... and I don't know why that doesn't equate to me feeling like this is totally fresh...

[treatment]

hmm.

iirc, didn't Minmay got drafted heavily by the locals to join the first Miss Macross pageant for the morale of the trapped community? I don't think Hikaru ever pushed her or gave her any ideas about the Miss Macross pageant and stuff.

In contrast, Ranka was pretty much heavily inspired by Alto to join it to realize something for herself and not for any community work.

Another one is that Minmay, along with her singing talent, actually had a better body than Ranka, whereas the only thing Ranka had going for her in the pageant was her singing talent. Minmay was the town favorite, whereas Ranka was a nobody.

Also, Alto is not anti-war as Hikaru. Hikaru ain't even attending highschool in SDFM-TV.

I mean, really now.

[eugimon]

Are we discussing the outcomes or the story? Think of it as trains. Say your board the same train on two different days but on one day you follow it to the next stop down. Will that make it feel like a brand new train to you? No, you'll just feel like you took the same train to a different location. Summary of the two episodes:

1) Please show up to Miss Macross The one I was actually encouraged to try as opposed to in SDFM where hikaru acted like a jealous wanker.

2) I'm competing in Miss Macross but these other girls are so much better at this than I am I'm insecure and mess up from the very beginning whereas minmay was actually rather confident and savvy right from the beginning.

3) I'll wow them with a song!

4) Oh no, the boy I like is missing! Minmay didn't even notice Hikaru had left. Minmay didn't even notice Hikaru had come in the first place

5) Boy, it sure is incovenient I had to leave the show. / But I'm not going to dwell on that and do my job

6) Oh no, bad guys! Hikaru sortied to go fight bad guys, alto left to take a test.

7) Good, bad guys are defeated, but someone is going to need to drag me home. /but not because I was an idiot and watching the pagent when I shouldn't have.

(end similarities)

In one the girl wins, in the other she loses

9) In one the bad guy is totally dead, in the other the bad guys escape in an emergency vehicle.

10) My wingmen are actually my superiors

11) I didn't use my rank and requisition armor that I wasn't supposed to.

12) I needed help to defeat the bad guy

13) I got chewed out for not following orders and wrecking my ride.

14) The other girl I like is one of the judges and not my commanding officer with no self esteem.

15) Alto is happy for ranka while hikaru saw minmay success as a bad thing.

and BIG number 16) The pagent doesn't expose culture and sexuality to the lobsters making them question themselves and their enemy

So, you're right, the stories are only about 77% the same... and I don't know why that doesn't equate to me feeling like this is totally fresh...

Edited May 6, 2008 by eugimon

[00X]

Are we discussing the outcomes or the story?

You said the outcome is essentially the same as the original "Miss Macross", and I said it's totally different, so.... We're discussing the outcomes, I'm pretty sure. Right?

Hmm.

....This post feels like a clip-show...

[VFTF1]

Ah - Eugimon - your post is as poetic as Dreamweaver's was analytical - and naturally it is brilliant.

I will only add a bit more on this note:

Ranka - as far as how I interpreted/felt while watching - does a TERRIBLE job at singing.

I was actually under the impression that the artistic crew did a really great job of animating a character who was an amaeteur and song and dance. Ranka seemed to trot along the stage - trying to go through the motions of Kyun Kyun but coming off totally unnatural. Sure, she has a good singing voice, but he body doesn't move like Minmey's - which is quite an achievement given the vast advances in animation technology since SDF:M.

I was very impressed by the talents here in episode 4 - because it is much harder to draw and animate a bad performance than a beautiful, fluid and vibrant one.

Ranka really sucked And that was cool. Sure - she was cute while she sucked - but she still sucked. And the outfit was hilarious - because of her petite figure; she looks even worse wearing such things than Minmey. Minmey just looked older and more dignified (but not as appealing) in those gowns and stage get ups - but Ranka looks like a 2 year old putting on "grown up clothes"

Another thing to consider is this:

Why should there NOT be a Miss Macross contest on the Frontier? I mean - are we to relegate Miss Macross to the past and close the book on it? It makes sense that the contest continued, that it has become a part of popular culture in the Macross Universe - and that girls dream of being accepted into the competition.

I understand Jenius' argument - the problem is - I just don't get the same sense as he does from the show - and am far more pleased with the homages and the general progression.

VFTF1