Macross Frontier Episode 4 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Renato]

Episode 4 isn't turning me off, Klein is.

I'm fine with humor, too. Alto's training has been, in my opinion, a high point of the series, including the hazing. Heck, I'm one of the members on this board that actually liked Macross 7, so I'd say I'm fairly tolerant of silliness. But I don't find Klein amusing, at all. She's like some kind of Tenchi Muyo reject, and jarringly out of place in Frontier.

My sentiments EXACTLY. I like humour, but KK is not funny at all. As I said before, it's almost as if someone just changed the channel on me.

[MisaForever]

Ok, regarding the Q-Rau's, they are the same BASIC DESIGN as the originals, no MAJOR changes. You're talking about small changes in shapes and such, the basic structure of it is the same. Please stop making such big deals over little things.

[kensei]

You're just biased. Everyone knows you hate gundam. And I don't think anyone will agree SEED or DESTINY is in anyway better than 00. SEED was horrendous. I'm not gonna argue about the fight choreography because i feel both MF and 00 are good in their own way.

Actually quite the contrary. Despite all the hype by fans such as yourself, numbers have proven that 00 has so far failed to be as popular by average ratings as SEED or SEED Destiny.

[Tobi54]

It wasn't a nose dive for sure, but there was considerable degradation between eps 1 to 4. CG was perfect and i have no qualms with it. But the non-CG cel animation had issues with mouth-to-voice sync, lower frame rates for animation, art looking strange and inconsistent in small 5 second spurts. Not really complaining but I fear if this trend continues further.

I agree, and I'm not even comparing MF to other anime, I'm comparing it to itself, I would add to the list above that some shots lack detail, and seem rushed, while others look amazing. I don't think it's a big deal, but there's no reason not to acknowledge it.

[GogDog]

I guess I have this rare gift (or fault, depending on how you see it) to just immerse myself in a show and not pick every detail apart. Some posts in these threads just seem to ruin the fun. It's great to pick up on some cool little details, but I am wondering how some people here even enjoy watching shows. Maybe Yamato could use some of you guys for their QC department, then everyone would be happy.

[MisaForever]

I guess I have this rare gift (or fault, depending on how you see it) to just immerse myself in a show and not pick every detail apart. Some posts in these threads just seem to ruin the fun. It's great to pick up on some cool little details, but I am wondering how some people here even enjoy watching shows. Maybe Yamato could use some of you guys for their QC department, then everyone would be happy.

I'm the same way. I don't see the need to look and pick apart a movie or TV show, it just ruins the whole point. Why watch something for enjoyment if you're just going to tear it apart and spoil the fun?

[Effect]

Actually quite the contrary. Despite all the hype by fans such as yourself, numbers have proven that 00 has so far failed to be as popular by average ratings as SEED or SEED Destiny.

Not really fair to look at it that day since 00 is a different styled series compared to SEED and SEED Destiny and is going to appeal to a different audience (some crossover but not completely). Not only that but you are judging half a series to two full run series. Also Gundam fatigue could have set in with 00 being the 3rd series with SEED and SEED Destiny being released back to back.

Anyway back to Macross. I really hope that the image of the UN Spacey improves. While I don't have a problem with SMS being the group Alto joined I was really hoping he'd join the NUNS instead. Or at the very least we would have more UN Spacey characters that weren't looked down upon by the SMS as being cowards or incompetent.

[grss1982]

Not really fair to look at it that day since 00 is a different styled series compared to SEED and SEED Destiny and is going to appeal to a different audience (some crossover but not completely). Not only that but you are judging half a series to two full run series. Also Gundam fatigue could have set in with 00 being the 3rd series with SEED and SEED Destiny being released back to back.

Anyway back to Macross. I really hope that the image of the UN Spacey improves. While I don't have a problem with SMS being the group Alto joined I was really hoping he'd join the NUNS instead. Or at the very least we would have more UN Spacey characters that weren't looked down upon by the SMS as being cowards or incompetent.

I'm hoping for characters like that to appear as well. In fact.....

Was'nt there one such character in the manga? A VF-171 pilot by the name of Captain Ariela?

@Graham: Any ideas on whether the person I mentioned in the spoiler above will be appearing in the series or is the person a manga only character?

@GogDog & MisaForever: I'm also of the same mindset about people here going ANAL.

Edited April 29, 2008 by grss1982

[Radd]

I was kinda hoping Alto would begin with the NUNS, and eventually move to SMS. It would really allow for a first hand look at exactly why the NUNS is in the state it's in. And give some kind of build up to Alto finally graduating to the VF-25. Anticipation, after all, is everything.

[Holocause]

I'm still bothered at the fact that 4 episodes in and we still haven't caught a glimpse (outside of the opening theme) of the ship that has the title of the series for its namesake.

Show us the friking Macross already for crying out loud.

[Tobi54]

It doesn't spoil the fun for me at all, it doesnt make me like the series less because of it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there. Pointing something out isn't tearing it apart, tearing it apart would be trashing the show without any merit, and we're definetly not doing that, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion, judging people based on difference of opinion is kind of pointless.

[Tobi54]

@GogDog & MisaForever: I'm also of the same mindset about people here going ANAL.

There's absolutely no need for name calling, or even get personal, whether that was aimed at me or not, it doesn't matter, attack the post, not the poster.

[Kelsain]

Ja, I find I'm getting tired of the "NUNS sucks" attitude of everybody. Perhaps it's simply that we're only seeing the show from SMS's perspective so far. We don't know if the 171's took out the headless Vajra and his companions in episode 3, or if they simply folded out. Show NUNS a little respect, they built and operate that big dome you're all livin' in, sheesh!

I really do hope we get another NUNS character or two, at least one hero VF-171. But we'll see.

As for KK, I like her. If she is 100% Zentraedi, or even further a culture convert herself, her attitude in chibi miclone form is not surprising. It's like the ULTIMATE expression of Napoleon syndrome. All of that Zent agression packed into a tiny frame that's getting constantly mocked and pushed around.

Also, think of the hormonal frustration - Giant KK is teh hottness, but all Chibi KK can only get the pedos to give her an alluring look. If Macronized reproduction is impossible (forget fluid volumes, just think of the forces involved!), poor KK may be the end of the line! Ah well, that's evolution for ya.

[GogDog]

There's absolutely no need for name calling, or even get personal, whether that was aimed at me or not, it doesn't matter, attack the post, not the poster.

Taking things a bit personally? I don't recall anyone mentioning you, just a general mindset on the thread, calm down. Also, calling someone anal is not name calling, it refers to the psychological trait of being anal retentive, which perfectly describes some of the goings-on in this thread. it is not a fundamentally negative trait. Again, calm down.

[Nexx Stalker]

I'm still bothered at the fact that 4 episodes in and we still haven't caught a glimpse (outside of the opening theme) of the ship that has the title of the series for its namesake.

Show us the friking Macross already for crying out loud.

In Macross 7 we had to wait till episode 18 (if I remember correctly)

[Tobi54]

Taking things a bit personally? I don't recall anyone mentioning you, just a general mindset on the thread, calm down. Also, calling someone anal is not name calling, it refers to the psychological trait of being anal retentive, which perfectly describes some of the goings-on in this thread. it is not a fundamentally negative trait. Again, calm down.

I'm calm, the problem I see here is that this is turning into discussing the posters attitudes (?), instead of the actual topic, for example, mentioning that people are being anal because they see something in a different way than someone else. Disagreeing is fine, why turn the focus of the discussion into the people instead of the actual topic being discussed?

I could go out my way and call people fanboys for not acknowledging some of the incosistency of the cell animation, but that wouldnt be fair, and out of context, but it would be the same thing as making a comment about people being anal. IMO we're here to discuss Macross, not each other.

[Mr March]

I'm not at all concerned about the NUNS in Macross Frontier. The story is about SMS and they wouldn't exist if there wasn't a need for them. If they make NUNS suddenly the competent and professional institution it was in previous eras of Macross, it would undermine the credibility and the need for an institution like the SMS to play such a major role in the events of Frontier. I certainly don't want that, since it's the SMS and its members that Macross Frontier is all about.

It doesn't spoil the fun for me at all, it doesnt make me like the series less because of it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

These are good words to live by, but it's important to understand that on the internet it's difficult to gauge the context of discussion. It's easy to forget that a portion of fandom bitches and moans as their way of expressing how much they enjoy anime. When you're face to face with a fan you know personally, that context is easy to understand. Online, bitching and moaning comes across as just that; bitching and moaning. Other members can't know the context of these complaints and don't know you personally. We have to assume these complaints are serious and genuinely as important as the considerable time devoted to complaining. Otherwise we'd have no way to differentiate fans who are complaining as "fandom enjoyment" from those fans who are geniunely complaining out of strong dislike that puts the show in jeopardy. Something we have to keep in mind.

[Ivan]

In Macross 7 we had to wait till episode 18 (if I remember correctly)

I actually don't mind. Less is more, in my opinion. This is what made Jaws work so well. They also tried to do the same thing in Cloverfield. So I'm all for slowly revealing the battle ship.

[Vinnie]

S.M.S. Seems kinda like Blackwater, but not as corporate-money-driven like it... Blackwater is the biggest private army in the real world, while SMS looks like a waaay smaller organization. S.M.S. seems more like a coalition of very tough battle-hardened elite mercs to me. They get lots of money for their missions, which they wisely employ to get the latest & most advanced hardware. They got the VF-25 cause the manufacturer wanted to test it in a real battle scenario. S.M.S. probably stands for Special Mission Service, Society or something like that...

The one that looks more corporate-driven is NUNS. It stands for NEW UN SPACY... Is basically the UN Spacy from the original Macross & Macross 7, but kinda reformed in its administration. It seems is managed more like a corporation now...

I don't mind the main group being PMCs. I do take some issue with in a fleet of thousands of trained military pilots (2-3 years schooling, countless flight hours) that they'd have to hire high school kids who couldn't have more than a few hundered hours of flight and sim time. I mean surely there must be a few Gamlin Kizakis amongst the ranks of CF.

While kids piloting mecha is a tradition as old as the mecha-genre itself. This take on it really challenges my suspension of disbelief. I mean in SDF:M it was out of necessity to put the teens in. Evangelion they were the only ones who could synch. etc etc. With Frontier it's because...they don't have to pay them as much or what?

Perhaps this is just me as the aforementioned school-trained military aviator, refusing to believe some snot-nosed high schooler with a cessna 172 could hop into a next generation aircraft and outfly me.

Oh, and I am all for KK, and the Loli-traedy challenges my suspension of disbelief far less than SMS's human resources department. I think the concept is funny and enjoyed her interactions with Mikhail/Michael. But then again, I enjoyed Macross 7 as well.

[raymond]

I don't mind the main group being PMCs. I do take some issue with in a fleet of thousands of trained military pilots (2-3 years schooling, countless flight hours) that they'd have to hire high school kids who couldn't have more than a few hundered hours of flight and sim time. I mean surely there must be a few Gamlin Kizakis amongst the ranks of CF.

While kids piloting mecha is a tradition as old as the mecha-genre itself. This take on it really challenges my suspension of disbelief. I mean in SDF:M it was out of necessity to put the teens in. Evangelion they were the only ones who could synch. etc etc. With Frontier it's because...they don't have to pay them as much or what?

Perhaps this is just me as the aforementioned school-trained military aviator, refusing to believe some snot-nosed high schooler with a cessna 172 could hop into a next generation aircraft and outfly me.

Oh, and I am all for KK, and the Loli-traedy challenges my suspension of disbelief far less than SMS's human resources department. I think the concept is funny and enjoyed her interactions with Mikhail/Michael. But then again, I enjoyed Macross 7 as well.

I totally agree. In previous series and OVAs, pilots were always adults or at least almost adults. I don't quite remember someone as young as Luca piloting something as expensive or as deadly as a Valkyrie except maybe Mylene though she was playing a guitar and singing rather than blasting away at Protodeviln. I mean, there should be some kind of age limit where kids just shouldn't be allowed to pilot these things. True, a kid might be a genius himself at flying but that doesn't necessarily mean he has the maturity to make the kind of life and death decisions that an adult has to make in the heat of combat.

As for the recent friction here, aren't forums like this made for people like us to discuss topics of importance? Isn't it an unspoken rule between forum members to agree to disagree but disagree agreeably? Cool off a little

[RedLion]

I wonder if there is going to be an art book done for this series. I can't recall one for Macross 0 other than sketches, line art, and computer renderings of the Sv-51, in Kawamari's Design Works book. It would be nice to have a book with all of the characters and mech like the days of old. If only I could read he Japanese!

[Shun]

Ja, I find I'm getting tired of the "NUNS sucks" attitude of everybody. Perhaps it's simply that we're only seeing the show from SMS's perspective so far. We don't know if the 171's took out the headless Vajra and his companions in episode 3, or if they simply folded out. Show NUNS a little respect, they built and operate that big dome you're all livin' in, sheesh!

I really do hope we get another NUNS character or two, at least one hero VF-171. But we'll see.

lol... that's quite expected. remember that scene when Ozma took over from NUNS in ep 1? the NUNS pilots were screaming like little girls...

maybe we just happen to see/hear the cowards of NUNS. I too hope to see the NUNS being at least abit more competent but Mr March is right - if they were that good, there wont be a reason for SMS anymore.

BTW, in ep 1 there were 3 lobsters. 1 got killed by Ozma's stab, 1 had its head vaporized but escaped(?), there's one more missing. maybe NUNS got them

What does SMS stand for? Special Military Service?

[jenius]

Watched it, thought it was better than the third episode although I would have liked Altoh to be a little less of a bad anus from the onset. Hubris is supposed to get you killed so I hope he doesn't become all Basara with his arrogance. I would also like to see some play off the NUNS vs SMS. I think SMS has done enough to establish why they're needed, now it'd be nice to see NUNS show why the regular military is in business as well. Besides that, it could be a fun place for the story to go, another point to build drama around. A strong NUNS pilot could be a fun character also. KK looked like a Shadow Chronicles reject in Macron mode but she didn't bother me too much in micron but I stomached Mint from Mospeada. On a personal taste note, I also thought the missile trails in Shadow Chronicles looked goofy so I'm not too thrilled to see mech trails that draw hearts in M:F but that is the most minor of complaints ever. Really, I think it's just the bright color of the trails that turns me off.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

The transport stream raws all captured off Japanese TV are actually 1440x1080i; Japanese networks do not broadcast in 1080p. Anime itself is usually animated at SD or 720p, so there is no real point in releasing at 1080 since there is no noticeable increase in quality. Macross Frontier's TV airing is definitely SD upscaled but it still looks good (in motion) at 720p so I leave it at that size.

Thanks a lot for the reply. Truly, as I mentioned, 720P is really nice for a sub. It doesn't sacrifice the visual quality while delivering some understanding.

I add myself to those who extend their gratitude towards you and all of the fansub groups. You're a really making a dream out of our lives right now.

[RichterX]

I actually don't mind. Less is more, in my opinion. This is what made Jaws work so well. They also tried to do the same thing in Cloverfield. So I'm all for slowly revealing the battle ship.

And when they transform it, it will be amazing! Also consider that so far they have only been fighting 1 - 4 bugs at a time, when they face a large fleet they will then use the ship transformed.

[UN Spacy]

I agree that a bit of excitement should build up to the transformation.

I'm eagerly awaiting to see the next huge fleet engagement.

[Gubaba]

I totally agree. In previous series and OVAs, pilots were always adults or at least almost adults. I don't quite remember someone as young as Luca piloting something as expensive or as deadly as a Valkyrie except maybe Mylene though she was playing a guitar and singing rather than blasting away at Protodeviln. I mean, there should be some kind of age limit where kids just shouldn't be allowed to pilot these things. True, a kid might be a genius himself at flying but that doesn't necessarily mean he has the maturity to make the kind of life and death decisions that an adult has to make in the heat of combat.

Well...Hikaru and Max were both 16...Gamlin was 17...and Mylene DID blast away at the Protodeviln a bit, and did pretty well, too.

[Kelsain]

Perhaps it just comes down to CF outrage. I like the CF fighters, if not always their color shemes, and it'd be nice if pilots other than the heroes had a little competence. Even the guys in M+ seemed to do pretty well, Isamu just outclassed them.

Like raymond mentions, you'd think there'd be a few good pilots in the NUNS ranks. After all VFs have been standard for over 50 years at this point. Maybe they should have stuck with the X-9 Ghost after all? Perhaps we'll see them perform a little better when we start getting some fleet action and Battle 25 transforms.

[wolfx]

I don't mind the main group being PMCs. I do take some issue with in a fleet of thousands of trained military pilots (2-3 years schooling, countless flight hours) that they'd have to hire high school kids who couldn't have more than a few hundered hours of flight and sim time. I mean surely there must be a few Gamlin Kizakis amongst the ranks of CF.

While kids piloting mecha is a tradition as old as the mecha-genre itself. This take on it really challenges my suspension of disbelief. I mean in SDF:M it was out of necessity to put the teens in. Evangelion they were the only ones who could synch. etc etc. With Frontier it's because...they don't have to pay them as much or what?

Perhaps this is just me as the aforementioned school-trained military aviator, refusing to believe some snot-nosed high schooler with a cessna 172 could hop into a next generation aircraft and outfly me.

Oh, and I am all for KK, and the Loli-traedy challenges my suspension of disbelief far less than SMS's human resources department. I think the concept is funny and enjoyed her interactions with Mikhail/Michael. But then again, I enjoyed Macross 7 as well.

I'm too used to teens being selected as pilots that it doesn't strike me as odd anymore....when it SHOULD. You're right, there was no real reason for them to pick Alto, other than the fact that he seems like a rough diamond that has big potential to be an ace pilot. The only reason he's there now is cuz he whined to Ozma and he saved his adopted sister.

And why they are hiring Mikhail and Luca...perhaps there's a reason why they don't want military men.

[GogDog]

I don't mind the main group being PMCs. I do take some issue with in a fleet of thousands of trained military pilots (2-3 years schooling, countless flight hours) that they'd have to hire high school kids who couldn't have more than a few hundered hours of flight and sim time. I mean surely there must be a few Gamlin Kizakis amongst the ranks of CF.

While kids piloting mecha is a tradition as old as the mecha-genre itself. This take on it really challenges my suspension of disbelief. I mean in SDF:M it was out of necessity to put the teens in. Evangelion they were the only ones who could synch. etc etc. With Frontier it's because...they don't have to pay them as much or what?

Perhaps this is just me as the aforementioned school-trained military aviator, refusing to believe some snot-nosed high schooler with a cessna 172 could hop into a next generation aircraft and outfly me.

Oh, and I am all for KK, and the Loli-traedy challenges my suspension of disbelief far less than SMS's human resources department. I think the concept is funny and enjoyed her interactions with Mikhail/Michael. But then again, I enjoyed Macross 7 as well.

I agree with you. One interesting point to keep in mind is that with modern PMCs like Blackwater, all of its members are already seasoned from having served in regular military units.

[Sundown]

I'm enjoying Frontier more than I thought I would. I still think it departs from the elements I like most about SDF Macross and lacks some of the charm, but it's somewhat entertaining in its own right if I stop thinking that it's Macross, or should be what I've come to expect and want of it. The homages to the original are kind of nice, but I actually feel they parallel SDF *too* much-- in essence it relies too heavily on the exact plot elements and structure that made SDF great and as a result, brings little of its own. Some scenes are nearly identical to the original in specific detail and shot. It's the same story told with a completely different art style and presentation, which is almost exactly the opposite of what I want in a Macross sequel. I'd much rather have something that looks more reminscent of the original with a different story and the same charm. The slight twists they put on the homages are kind of nice: Alto catches the falling Ranka in a different way from the original, and Ranka actually loses in the Miss Macross competition, but it almost seems that the strength of those twists lie entirely upon having viewed SDF. Her rendition of "My Boyfriend Is a Pilot" was nostalgic though.

Oh, and there's way too much fan service and boobage jokes for me in a Macross feature. Especially with fan service focused on pubscent girls like Ranka with even more pedi-factor than Mylene.

[StrangeWill]

I think getting some NUNS aces (one-three) would be interesting, add a little tension between NUNS and SMS instead of just chucking insults, and you can keep the political and organization incompetence of NUNS along with the other poorly trained pilots.

Would be interesting to see the arguments that would go on over equipment and who were the better pilots and such. Not to mention the NUNS would probably have some kind of pride complex with UN Spacy, so that could play out.

Edited April 29, 2008 by StrangeWill

[wraith1701]

Oh, and there's way too much fan service and boobage jokes for me in a Macross feature. Especially with fan service focused on pubscent girls like Ranka with even more pedi-factor than Mylene.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I'm enjoying this show more than I have any other Mecha series in a long time, but I wouldn't mind a little less pre-teen fan-service. Unfortunately, this seems almost like a required element in a lot of anime... I guess producers try to include a little of everything to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. I've sort of trained myself to ignore it.

I have to admit though; I'm enjoying the tension between Alto and Cheryl.

As far as the homages to the original series are concerned, I like them.

I probably haven't seen the first series as many times as a lot of fans here, but I remember enough to pick up on the more obvious nods. Seeing them helps connect this show with the rest of the Macross universe for me.

I think getting some NUNS aces (one-three) would be interesting, add a little tension between NUNS and SMS instead of just chucking insults, and you can keep the political and organization incompetence of NUNS along with the other poorly trained pilots.

I like the idea of inter-agency rivalry; that would be pretty sweet. I'd also like to see exactly how the chain of command/jurisdiction works out.. is SMS an autonomous agency with the same authority as NUNS, or is it sort of a mercenary force that is employed by NUNS? I'm also curious; how do the Zentradi fit into the picture? Are the Zentradi pilots a part of the government space force, or are the Zentradi a seperate military that is allied with the humans?

[jenius]

On the Zents, are they part of NUNS? The captain of the ship bets on them as "his" guys right? It sounds like Michael explains to Ozma that the girls are part of SMS and used for dangerous recon jobs when NUNS is busy squabbling. This confuses me (not enough to detract while watching the show though).

Edited April 29, 2008 by jenius

[biggooftoybox]

How do you pronounce "Macbeth"?

Or how do you pronounce "MacHine"?

If you were thinking of macdonalds, then read again.

machine. =)