Anime Friend

[Renato]

Gonna copy and paste from the Frontier Ep 3 Thread which I derailed for a bit to get this point across. I think this is an important point which should not get buried amongst other posts so I'm finally giving its own thread. I'm not sure who it was that originally started the whole "Anime Friend SUCKS!! Curse you for the poorly animated knife fights!" but it really has astounded me that it has snowballed to the point that Anime Friend is now synonymous with bad animation on this site. For a time we even had the phrase "Anime Fiend" become a bit of a fad.

Unfortunately, this is not entirely accurate information, as I have tried many times to explain but failed miserably to get through the "AnimeFriend Veil of Hatred" ™.

I am now even thinking of putting this up on the Compedium under the fallacies section now thaqt they've gone wiki wiki wild wild west.

OK, Anime Friend: They were not technically a Korean studio, they were a Japanese studio which collaborated with Tatsunoko to produce SDF Mac and DYRL (note: Studio Nue is not an actual animation studio, it is a design production agency). In fact, I believe Anime Friend employees were mostly people who had left Tatsunoko (much like Production IG today).

Now, these guys actually working in Anime Friend were by no means bad, or "couldn't draw" or anything like that. Take a look at some of the sourcebooks for Macross, particularly the TIAS ones and you can see a lot of their work (I'll give you page numbers next time if you want).

For example, the episodes where Ichiro Itano is doing the keyframes for the action scenes, it doesn't matter who the hell traces the final cel to be photographed (be it an Anime Friend or Tatsunoko or Studio bloody Ghibli), what matters is the Itano original image. That's all they have to do.

Now. WHY do some eps of Macross look so ugly? The answer is who was in charge of the keyframes and the art. AnimeFriend actually outsourced some of their work to another studio in Korea: Star Pro.

OK, everyone who knows a little bit of katakana, go check your SDF Macross DVDs: all the really bad episodes of Macross, beginning from the 3rd episode, have the "原画" (genga / keyframes), 動画 (douga / in-betweening),　仕上げ (shiage/finishing) credited as スタープロ　or STAR PRO at the end of the episode, as opposed to the name of the person in charge, like Mikimoto in episode 4, etc. Some sourcebooks even name the guy in charge at Star Pro, his name is Park something, I dunno.

So, Anime Friend was not the crappy studio that you all think it was, that was Star Pro. Though Anime Friend could be considered lazy because all they gave Star Pro to go on where the basic storyboards and stuff and said "go make this" without providing the keyframes themselves so I guess the blame falls on them anyway.

Whatever. Take a look at that ugly episode of Orguss, "My Factory". Its "style" is VERY reminiscent of the Max/Millia wedding episode so I'm sure it is Star Pro, though I haven't checked it, and I'm sure Anime Friend had nothing whatsoever to do with Orguss, it was Tokyo Movie Shinsha that were in charge of the animation.

As some of you know I am very interested in the production side of Macross and try to find out as much about the animation industry circa 1982-5 as I can, including the different studios etc. I would like this thread to be not only a discussion on Anime Friend and their antics but also any other interesting fallacies or maybe just tidbits of information concerning the production of our favourite shows like Mac, Orguss, Mospeada, Megazone 23, etc.

For example, the missiles seen on the tailfins of Max's VF-1A in one episode (the one where they go on the recon mission and Misa is captured) were not an animation error but actually designed and animated by Ichiro Itano for a purpose -- because in the previous episode the GBP Aromoured valk has such a tough time against the same type of enemy craft while it is disposed of with such ease by Max, Hikaru and gang in the next. Stuff like that.

(By the way, I looked up the credits for the episode of Orguss I mentioned: it wasn't Star Pro, it was a company called K Production, but sure enough a Korean outsource still).

[Wes]

Yeah but they still outsourced the stuff. I mean I'm not mad at the Indian guy with poor English trying to fix my DSL I'm mad at AT&T for making me have to deal with the Indian guy with poor English. Like are you mad with BestBuy or the moron they hired to try to give you 'information.'?

[Renato]

Yeah but they still outsourced the stuff. I mean I'm not mad at the Indian guy with poor English trying to fix my DSL I'm mad at AT&T for making me have to deal with the Indian guy with poor English. Like are you mad with BestBuy or the moron they hired to try to give you 'information.'?

Yeah, but that's what I mean by "I guess they can still be considered lazy". Besides, when you look at coordinator Hiroshi Iwada's "average day" at the time (gets up at seven, goes to all these studios and gets to bed at 3am according to the Best Hit Series: Macross Graffiti book) you can hardly blame him. Gotta remember that the amount of designs Studio Nue wanted the show to feature was monumental for the time and must've been pretty overwhelming.

Also, remember that in the Animeigo commentary I think Noboru Ishiguro mentions that Itano had to go to hospital from overwork (and he himself mentioned it again in the AnimeGiga interview earlier this year -- although he said he postponed entering the hospital to enter a motorcycle race because he didn't want to let his teammates down). Seems like it would've been nigh impossible to finish making the show with just those two studios in terms of both human resources and funding.

If I remember correctly, in some litigation documentation from when Nue sued Tatsunoko a lot of details were revealed, and I think I recall that they could only carry on making the show financially thanks to the sale of the overseas distribution rights to HG.... which I thought was ironic at the time hence I remember it till now. I'm not 100% sure though, so don't quote me, rather, let's find the literature again and quote that.

[Renato]

Gah, I missed emphasazing my point and instead went off on a tangent. Anyway, I just wanted to put to rest the "Anime Friend sucks" thing, because they themselves were actually just as skilled. On the Macross DVDs you can see a promotion reel with a lot of episode 1 & 2 footage which Animeigo used to show their remastering before & after split-screen thing. The end of the sequence clearly states Produced by Anime Friend in Japanese: 制作：アニメフレンド. Now that animation looked pretty damn good to me so I think we should try to put an end this confusion between which studio did what.

[yellowlightman]

Awesome thread Renato, these kind of informative topics are what this section needs more of.

[Lindem Herz]

If I remember correctly, in some litigation documentation from when Nue sued Tatsunoko a lot of details were revealed, and I think I recall that they could only carry on making the show financially thanks to the sale of the overseas distribution rights to HG.... which I thought was ironic at the time hence I remember it till now. I'm not 100% sure though, so don't quote me, rather, let's find the literature again and quote that.

Didn't HG enter the game after DYRL was already in production?

[Mr March]

I stand corrected! I've edited my post on the issue with a link to this thread. Thanks for posting this Renato! I think I might find a way to add this to my website as well if you're willing. It's very good information that deserves clarification.

[TheLoneWolf]

Now, these guys actually working in Anime Friend were by no means bad, or "couldn't draw" or anything like that. Take a look at some of the sourcebooks for Macross, particularly the TIAS ones and you can see a lot of their work (I'll give you page numbers next time if you want).

Page numbers would be glorious!

Please consider putting whatever information you have in the Compendium's wiki. It would be fantastic for us Westerners to be able to read about Macross' production in one concise location. As it is, snippets of this information is scattered about in numerous BBS' and usenet groups.

I have an article in Animerica where Ishiguro states that Anime Friend farmed out their work to another company, but he never specified which company it was. Now I know it was Star Pro. Thanks!

[Gubaba]

Didn't HG enter the game after DYRL was already in production?

Well...the HG-Produced "Rick Yamada/Lisa Hayase" version of Macross came out in '84, so they could've bought the rights before the series ended...it seems counterintuitive that they would buy the series before it was finished, though.

Anyway, thanks for setting the record straight on Anime Friend. I always thought they did a creditable job on Mospeada, and wondered why that looked okay...clearly, Star Pro wasn't involved there.

[Wes]

Didn't HG enter the game after DYRL was already in production?

They did, but they had to give up the international rights to get more money out of them. Looking back at it maybe they'd consider a more rational move to gain capital, like official hentai perhaps?

[bsu legato]

Anime Friend apologists? Now I have seen everyting.

[Ginrai]

AnimeFriend animated basically all of Mospeada and it looks pretty crappy. Compared to the animation by Artland, it's a major step down, no matter how you look at it.

[lord_breetai]

If I remember correctly, in some litigation documentation from when Nue sued Tatsunoko a lot of details were revealed, and I think I recall that they could only carry on making the show financially thanks to the sale of the overseas distribution rights to HG.... which I thought was ironic at the time hence I remember it till now. I'm not 100% sure though, so don't quote me, rather, let's find the literature again and quote that.

Not quite, I read this only a few months ago and what it was is they were going over budget so the International distrobution rights were GIVEN to TATSUNOKO so they could use them to recover the costs from having to spend more then was originally agreed upon.

In the end it's the same thing... but that's how it went down and how Robotech came to be (essentially).

So let me get this right...

Big West/Studio Nue contracted Tatsunoko to do animation who subcontracted Anime Friend who subcontracted Star Pro... is that correct?

Edited April 22, 2008 by lord_breetai

[Zinjo]

Yeah, but that's what I mean by "I guess they can still be considered lazy". Besides, when you look at coordinator Hiroshi Iwada's "average day" at the time (gets up at seven, goes to all these studios and gets to bed at 3am according to the Best Hit Series: Macross Graffiti book) you can hardly blame him. Gotta remember that the amount of designs Studio Nue wanted the show to feature was monumental for the time and must've been pretty overwhelming.

Also, remember that in the Animeigo commentary I think Noboru Ishiguro mentions that Itano had to go to hospital from overwork (and he himself mentioned it again in the AnimeGiga interview earlier this year -- although he said he postponed entering the hospital to enter a motorcycle race because he didn't want to let his teammates down). Seems like it would've been nigh impossible to finish making the show with just those two studios in terms of both human resources and funding.

If I remember correctly, in some litigation documentation from when Nue sued Tatsunoko a lot of details were revealed, and I think I recall that they could only carry on making the show financially thanks to the sale of the overseas distribution rights to HG.... which I thought was ironic at the time hence I remember it till now. I'm not 100% sure though, so don't quote me, rather, let's find the literature again and quote that.

HG bought their license from Tatsunoko, not BW or Nue. You also have to remember Macross was huge in Asia first before HG or rather Macek noticed it. HG didn't release their version until "after" DYRL was released to theaters a year earlier.

Now Tatsunoko may have recovered their production costs by the sales of the distribution rights in other asian countries and overseas, however that only justified the courts to award them the "Maker's Rights" to SDFM, not the "Author's Rights" (aka IP rights) which BW and Nue still own. The "Maker's Rights" allows Tatsunoko to continue to profit from the animation of SDFM outside of Japan, but not to make any derivative works based on SDFM. Those rights belong to those who conceived and designed the show.

I find it doubtful the sale to HG gave them a substantial winfall, since Ahmed Agrama (and no doubt Frank is the same) was infamous for buying cheap and selling high. He wouldn't give them what the show was really worth.

I have no doubt when the ruling came down in Japan, HG saw the writing on the wall and then successfully trademarked the name "Macross" in the US and Canada, which effectively controls the franchise name in North America. Prior to the 2003 trademarking, HG and BW would stalemate the other each time they'd try to trademark the name in North America and that was going on since 1999 (it may have been earlier, I would have to check).

It is possible BW figured it wouldn't be an issue since they owned the IP rights, however, they have yet to appeal the trademarking armed with those very rights.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Zinjo

[Ginrai]

HG bought their license from Tatsunoko, not BW or Nue. You also have to remember Macross was huge in Asia first before HG or rather Macek noticed it. HG didn't release their version until "after" DYRL was released to theaters a year earlier.

What about the HG dub of the first three episodes of Macross that was direct to video and not Robotech that came out earlier?

[Gubaba]

What about the HG dub of the first three episodes of Macross that was direct to video and not Robotech that came out earlier?

Yeah, that's what I meant by the "Rick Yamada/Lisa Hayase" version...it came out in '84, after the original series had ended. I don't know if it came out before or after DYRL, but certainly all of the work on DYRL was finished by that point (maybe. We all know that Macross animators don't always stick to deadlines).

[Zinjo]

Yeah, that's what I meant by the "Rick Yamada/Lisa Hayase" version...it came out in '84, after the original series had ended. I don't know if it came out before or after DYRL, but certainly all of the work on DYRL was finished by that point (maybe. We all know that Macross animators don't always stick to deadlines).

Firstly, when in '84? According to the Compendium DYRL was released in July of 84 and the video came out in August of 84 (wow, faster than any DVD release!).

SDFM was over by June of 83 (no doubt DYRL went into production shortly after.)

Now if the video did indeed come out in 84 from reliable sources (sorry HG is NOT a reliable source), then clearly Tatsunoko wasted no time recovering it's costs from the series.

[Gubaba]

Firstly, when in '84? According to the Compendium DYRL was released in July of 84 and the video came out in August of 84 (wow, faster than any DVD release!).

SDFM was over by June of 83 (no doubt DYRL went into production shortly after.)

Now if the video did indeed come out in 84 from reliable sources (sorry HG is NOT a reliable source), then clearly Tatsunoko wasted no time recovering it's costs from the series.

It DEFITINTELY came out in '84...I know, because I have the tape, and that's what it says on it. (I assume that Harmony Gold was not given to fudging things like dates and legal rights at that time...)

Also (and this is EXTREMELY circumstantial), I remember seeing an ad for it in Starlog Magazine...and the only issue I ever had of that came with a poster with Ghostbusters on one side and Splash on the other. (I put up the Ghostbusters side first, and then, when puberty hit, turned it over. Convenient, eh?). So summer '84 sounds right. And if the Compendium says it was August, I believe 'em.

[Renato]

AnimeFriend animated basically all of Mospeada and it looks pretty crappy. Compared to the animation by Artland, it's a major step down, no matter how you look at it.

Again, the individual keyframe artists etc. are to blame for that, not where it was produced. I do not have the specific data for Mospeada episodes, but I can try to find out. Either way, it all depends on who was drawing what.

[Renato]

Not quite, I read this only a few months ago and what it was is they were going over budget so the International distrobution rights were GIVEN to TATSUNOKO so they could use them to recover the costs from having to spend more then was originally agreed upon.

In the end it's the same thing... but that's how it went down and how Robotech came to be (essentially).

So let me get this right...

Big West/Studio Nue contracted Tatsunoko to do animation who subcontracted Anime Friend who subcontracted Star Pro... is that correct?

Thanks, I thought I was misremembering something, but yeah, that was probably it.

And as far as I can tell from all the information I have seen, Anime Friend was not a subcontracted studio, rather it and Tatsunoko produced the show together as a co-production, along with Mainichi Broadcasting of course. It was AnimeFriend who then subcontracted to Korea.

I think the fallacy probably comes from the fact that we often hear Tatsunoko's name more often, mostly because of its connection to Robotech. Since the RT deal was between Tatsunoko and HG only, the credits only pay tribute to Tatsunoko, leaving Anime Friend in the dark. When it was "revealed" some years back that some footage was farmed out overseas, people started hearing this unfamiliar "Anime Friend" name and thought that that was the foreign studio, I guess. The fact that Anime Friend does not seem to have survived the 80s doesn't help in its recognition, either.

[Ginrai]

I also have the tape and it's advertised in the comic book Macross #1 published by Comico, written by Carl Macek, and drawn by his wife Svea, with an essay in the beginning about Macross and how they were going to bring out other cool shows like Mospeda (sic) and Southern Cross, but nary a mention of Robotech.

[Gubaba]

I also have the tape and it's advertised in the comic book Macross #1 published by Comico, written by Carl Macek, and drawn by his wife Svea, with an essay in the beginning about Macross and how they were going to bring out other cool shows like Mospeda (sic) and Southern Cross, but nary a mention of Robotech.

Well, of course...Robotech was only a bunch of Dougram, Macross, and Orguss plastic kits renamed and with different paint schemes at that time.

http://www.draddog.com/robotech/

Heh...the VF-1D is in jungle camo colors...

[Ginrai]

Yes, yes, I am well aware of that. There's also DC's embrassing Robotech Defenders comic.

[Renato]

Yes, they settled on the "Robotech" name for the series so that it would tie-in with the Revell kits which included Macross designs at the time. Which means had they gotten the rights to the shows, they may have tried to incorporate Dougram and Orguss into ther story. Hmm.

[Gubaba]

Yes, yes, I am well aware of that. There's also DC's embrassing Robotech Defenders comic.

I've never read either of the issues (nor even seen 'em), but I would imagine that they're better than most '90s Robotech comics; I mean, they'd HAVE to be...

...wouldn't they?

[JB0]

For example, the missiles seen on the tailfins of Max's VF-1A in one episode (the one where they go on the recon mission and Misa is captured) were not an animation error but actually designed and animated by Ichiro Itano for a purpose -- because in the previous episode the GBP Aromoured valk has such a tough time against the same type of enemy craft while it is disposed of with such ease by Max, Hikaru and gang in the next. Stuff like that.

The version of that I've heard is it was a patch to CORRECT an animation error.

The guys drawing the episode had given Max a giant beam gun(much like Gamlin would routinely use many years later, strangely enough) that he one-shot'ed the recon craft with, and it was too late to completely redraw the sequence by the time anyone else found out.

Hence a lot of missiles were added to Max's VF so he could still one-shot it, but do so from an appropriate tech level.

That way they just had to reshoot the attack scene with a missile rack(hastily drawn) and some missile trails(probably recycled) overlaid on the Valkyrie instead of the deathray that was initially overlaid.

That's why you never see that particular expansion pack ever again. It was the anime equivalent of white-out.

It's interesting to know that AnimeFiend isn't incompetent.

Though I shall now never forgive them for farming Virgin Road out to Star Pro without adequate information to draw anything right instead of never forgiving them for animating Virgin Road.

As you noted, it's still their fault, though it's management's fault and not the animators'.

[Renato]

The version of that I've heard is it was a patch to CORRECT an animation error.

The guys drawing the episode had given Max a giant beam gun(much like Gamlin would routinely use many years later, strangely enough) that he one-shot'ed the recon craft with, and it was too late to completely redraw the sequence by the time anyone else found out.

Hence a lot of missiles were added to Max's VF so he could still one-shot it, but do so from an appropriate tech level.

That way they just had to reshoot the attack scene with a missile rack(hastily drawn) and some missile trails(probably recycled) overlaid on the Valkyrie instead of the deathray that was initially overlaid.

Well, I've not heard about it originally featuring a Gamlin-style beam gun, but yes, that's what I mean. Though I understood that the "error" was more one of continuity -- Itano said he insisted the sequence be re-shot because the enemy mecha was the same as the one which took a million missiles to take out in the previous episode with the GBP, so it wouldn't make sense that having established that, it would be so easy to blow up in one blast using a regular valk in the next ep.

[JB0]

Well, I've not heard about it originally featuring a Gamlin-style beam gun, but yes, that's what I mean. Though I understood that the "error" was more one of continuity -- Itano said he insisted the sequence be re-shot because the enemy mecha was the same as the one which took a million missiles to take out in the previous episode with the GBP, so it wouldn't make sense that having established that, it would be so easy to blow up in one blast using a regular valk in the next ep.

Too bad Itano never got the note that Max was just THAT awesome. Could've saved himself some work.

Seriously, he passed a 1A in an ill-fitting uniform off as a real zentradi soldier(briefly). Just being painted blue apparently makes the impossible possible(and how did he get the head laser under that hat anyways?).

[Gubaba]

Too bad Itano never got the note that Max was just THAT awesome. Could've saved himself some work.

Seriously, he passed a 1A in an ill-fitting uniform off as a real zentradi soldier(briefly). Just being painted blue apparently makes the impossible possible(and how did he get the head laser under that hat anyways?).

Max will forever look young, he can fit a robot into an ill-fitting uniform and actually fool people with it, he can magically launch missiles out of thin air, hell, by touching Miria's chin, he could even BREAK THE LAW OF GRAVITY and float around...being a genius has its perks.

[Alex]

Heh. I heard a quote from Micheal J.Fox last week in which he jokingly refers to the "J" as standing for "JENIUS".

"Where we're going, we won't need Virgin Roads."

[nemesis_trooper]

I have no doubt when the ruling came down in Japan, HG saw the writing on the wall and then successfully trademarked the name "Macross" in the US and Canada, which effectively controls the franchise name in North America. Prior to the 2003 trademarking, HG and BW would stalemate the other each time they'd try to trademark the name in North America and that was going on since 1999 (it may have been earlier, I would have to check).

It is possible BW figured it wouldn't be an issue since they owned the IP rights, however, they have yet to appeal the trademarking armed with those very rights.

Sorry Zinjo, not quite following this - can you trademark something in N America without owning the IP rights? I thought it was synonymous? Or you mean because BW owned the IP rights in Japan?

[Renato]

Page numbers would be glorious!

Please consider putting whatever information you have in the Compendium's wiki. It would be fantastic for us Westerners to be able to read about Macross' production in one concise location. As it is, snippets of this information is scattered about in numerous BBS' and usenet groups.

I have an article in Animerica where Ishiguro states that Anime Friend farmed out their work to another company, but he never specified which company it was. Now I know it was Star Pro. Thanks!

OK, I'm back with the page numbers. This info s actually in several books, but for now I'll just state a couple:

First up, the This is Animation: The Select #7: SDF Macross 下巻(vol. 3)

Cover: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/tia7f.jpg

Page 119 gives a simple run-through of the episodes, their corresponding airdates and main staff members for each: Script, Storyboards, Performance, Character animation director, Mecha animation director and art director. Intriguingly, the scriptwriter for "Phantasm" is not credited. Maybe it's a ghost writer, ha ha.

Point is, this Park guy (can't read his first name, I'm gonna ask a Korean friend) is credited for mecha and character animation for episodes 13: Blue Wind, 20: Paradise Lost, 22: Love Concert (Oh GOD, I still get nightmares about Minmay's eyes in this one), 25: Virgin Road, 29: Lonely Song, 32: Broken Heart (thanks to him we get the YF-1R!! Yay! Robotech fans rejoice!) and 34: Private Time.

The same credits for episode 3: Space Fold show a different nam; I can't read it but it is still Korean, and the end sequence clearly states Star Pro, so the Park guy probably just took over for the rest of the episodes.

Best Hit Series: Macross Graffiti (Cover: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/series_best.htm ) This one gives a similar list, though not as tidy, spread out over pages 90-93. So far I have found no inconsistencies.

But it surprised me to see Private time in there. Clearly, there are shots drawn by the usual staff of Macross, and I can' rememember where but I am certain I saw the layout drawing of the VF-X that appears in the scene with Roy in the hangar being credited to Kawamori himself, but I can't remember where. Could've been in the Perfect Memory book, but I cannot be sure because my copy is in storage in the UK. Anyone know the pic? It is the same line drawing as the cel, but is is the layout for the keyframe, so the directions for the colourists are there, etc.

In fact, I will try to get the chance to re-watch the ending sequence of Private Time to see if Star Pro makes an appearance... I think that episode contains footage which was already planned for other episodes and Star Pro may have filled in the gaps, while the Mac staff switched a lot of scenes around. Which would explain why Roy's hair is long, then short, then long again.

[Renato]

OK, found a discrepancy. Kawamori is credited as scriptwriter on page 91 of the Graffiti book, while that entry is blank in the TIAS book.

[TheLoneWolf]

Renato, you're my new hero.

Point is, this Park guy (can't read his first name, I'm gonna ask a Korean friend) is credited for mecha and character animation for episodes 13: Blue Wind, 20: Paradise Lost, 22: Love Concert (Oh GOD, I still get nightmares about Minmay's eyes in this one), 25: Virgin Road, 29: Lonely Song, 32: Broken Heart (thanks to him we get the YF-1R!! Yay! Robotech fans rejoice!) and 34: Private Time.

Please do find out the full name of this Park guy, the creator of the "YF-1R" must be named!

Clearly, there are shots drawn by the usual staff of Macross, and I can' rememember where but I am certain I saw the layout drawing of the VF-X that appears in the scene with Roy in the hangar being credited to Kawamori himself, but I can't remember where. Could've been in the Perfect Memory book, but I cannot be sure because my copy is in storage in the UK. Anyone know the pic? It is the same line drawing as the cel, but is is the layout for the keyframe, so the directions for the colourists are there, etc.

I know what VF-X image you're talking about, I'm pretty sure it's in PM and will scan it when I get back home tonight. IIRC, Kawamori drew the original lineart and it appears the animators simply traced over it, colored it and added in some animation.

[Ginrai]

I've never read either of the issues (nor even seen 'em), but I would imagine that they're better than most '90s Robotech comics; I mean, they'd HAVE to be...

...wouldn't they?

Spoken by someone who has clearly never experienced the depths of 80's DC tie-in comics. They are BAD.