Battlestar Galactica Discussion III

[RedWolf]

This is what I meant by depressing. Dee blows her head out because she can't stand the thought of unhapiness again. Gaeta, one of the most morally driven characters, goes the moral event horizon.

Zarek well he's in character.

[eugimon]

Gaeta was never a moral character, he was an idealistic character.

[Gubaba]

O...kay...

I know that just a few hours ago, I was saying I wanted to strangle Gaeta myself, but still...there was something chilling about he and Zarek facing the firing squad, exactly as Adama had just a few minutes previous.

Storytelling-wise, I think it was a brilliant choice. A less confident writer would've had Zarek pull a gun on Adama in the CIC and get gunned down, and then would've had Gaeta, I don't know, go crazy or something and get shot, too. That would have established that justice had been done, the bad guys had been silenced, and the correct authority had reasserted itself.

Instead, we get an execution scene (showing people we - or at least, I - really wanted to see getting their just deserts) that was set up almost shot-for-shot the same as the previous execution scene, where the "bad guys" were in the firing squad, and the "good guy" was tied up in the chair facing them.

To use a lit-crit word, it really problematizes the end of the episode. Yes, Zarek and Gaeta deserved execution. Yes, there is no way they could've been allowed to live after what they tried to pull. Yes, I wanted to see both of them bite it. But to do it in EXACTLY the same way they were going to execute Adama...it just sets off the alarm bells and makes me feel a little sick to my stomach.

Gaeta was right. There's been too much death.

(And Zarek NEVER should have murdered the Quorum. Gaeta, from the beginning, has clearly been a follower rather than a leader, and wants someone to look up to, be it Adama, or Baltar, or Zarek himself. And killing the Quorum was exactly the kind of pragmatic (and cold-blooded) move that Zarek, ever the realist, would feel necessary to make, but that would also alienate Gaeta (who definitely believed in Truth, Justice, and the Colonial Way) permanently.)

[eugimon]

One of the things that made that scene so powerful for me was that for 4 seasons we've watched Adama love and forgive countless times. And when gaeta is in that room with Baltar, I half expected Adama to be listening in and at the last moment, forgive him and call him family.

[Gubaba]

I probably should've stopped for the night, but I found I couldn't, so I went on to watch "No Exit." I feel like I've been barraged with information overload, so I'll probably watch it again before too long.

So yea...Ellen's back, and Sam's been providing answers (although it doesn't look like he'll be providing any more unless something big happens). I notcied before that there was no Number Seven, but...I figured it was one of the Final Five...so there are/were Thirteen Cylon models? Weird. I'll have to see how it all plays out.

(This, RedWolf, means I don't want you to tell me what happens. Thank you. )

Daniel...I'm wondering if this name is meant to ring a bell. So far, it doesn't for me.

And, um...one thing that's been bothering me for a while. I keep noticing little scraps of famous poetry thrown in. First, I remember someone (Adama, maybe? I can't remember) quoting an Emily Dickenson poem...then on his radio broadcast, Baltar quoted Hamlet (talking about "this mortal coil" and "the undiscovered country")...and I'm pretty sure that among his ramblings in this episode, Sam quoted Milton. And I suppose you could add "All Along the Watchtower" into this as well.

Sam, I can kind of understand. He's from earth; he was a guitarist, he played "All Along the Watchtower" for Tori, and might have read Milton at some point. But Baltar and Adama (I'm pretty sure it was Adama )...? Weird. I don't get it.

I hope they'll come up with SOME explanation for it, but it seems like such a background thing, and probably not an issue for most people watching the show.

(I'm, erm, trying to go into the ending with lowered expectations. Something tells me it won't be an ending that answers all questions and ties everything up with a neat little bow. Priorities...the creators have to have priorities. And explaining why Baltar is quoting Shakespeare is not high on the list of "desperately need to know" questions.)

[RedWolf]

(And Zarek NEVER should have murdered the Quorum. Gaeta, from the beginning, has clearly been a follower rather than a leader, and wants someone to look up to, be it Adama, or Baltar, or Zarek himself. And killing the Quorum was exactly the kind of pragmatic (and cold-blooded) move that Zarek, ever the realist, would feel necessary to make, but that would also alienate Gaeta (who definitely believed in Truth, Justice, and the Colonial Way) permanently.)

Which is why I say Zarek stayed true to his character. In contrast to his Sagitaron roots who are pacifists he seeks violence.

Zarek was a terrorist turned politician to begin with. Frankly I've seen this type of bastard before leading on young idealistic military officers to cause trouble.

Daniel...I'm wondering if this name is meant to ring a bell. So far, it doesn't for me.

From Ellen's description he was musician. It's like Cavil snapped and killed Basara. And put bleach on the cloning tanks for good measure.

Edited December 28, 2009 by RedWolf

[azrael]

I probably should've stopped for the night, but I found I couldn't, so I went on to watch "No Exit." I feel like I've been barraged with information overload, so I'll probably watch it again before too long.

So yea...Ellen's back, and Sam's been providing answers (although it doesn't look like he'll be providing any more unless something big happens). I notcied before that there was no Number Seven, but...I figured it was one of the Final Five...so there are/were Thirteen Cylon models? Weird. I'll have to see how it all plays out.

Yeah, you might want to watch this episode again for good measure. Sam spits out a lot before the surgery which gives you much of the info about how the humanoid Cylons came to be.

And, um...one thing that's been bothering me for a while. I keep noticing little scraps of famous poetry thrown in. First, I remember someone (Adama, maybe? I can't remember) quoting an Emily Dickenson poem...then on his radio broadcast, Baltar quoted Hamlet (talking about "this mortal coil" and "the undiscovered country")...and I'm pretty sure that among his ramblings in this episode, Sam quoted Milton. And I suppose you could add "All Along the Watchtower" into this as well.

Much of what Sam and the Hybrids spit out is "word salad", there are a few spots of coherent phrases, but most of it can be ignored.

[Gubaba]

Okay, after watching the Sam scenes and the Ellen scenes again, here's what I've worked out.

Some 4000 years before

- the 13th Tribe made it to earth

Some 2000 years before

- The Final Five worked out resurrection technology.

- Earth was destroyed in a nuclear holocaust. The Final Five (and others?) downloaded onto a ship, and set out to warn the 12 Colonies

Some unspecified time before

- The Final Five arrive at the Algae Planet. I'm unclear as to whether they changed anything. Cavil seems to think they did, Ellen said they didn't.

40 years before

- The First Cylon War is engulfing the 12 Colonies. The Final Five get there and make a deal with the Cylons: stop the war, and we'll show you how to make human-like Cylons. They make eight models. Cavil kills Number Seven. Then Cavil kills the Final Five and implants new memories into them. Then he introduces Tigh (and some time later, Ellen) into the Colonies.

Some time later

- Cavil introduces Tyrol, Tori, and Sam into the colonies.

And then, of course, Cavil decides to attack and destroy the Colonies.

Does that sound about right? (Don't answer that.)

[azrael]

Okay, after watching the Sam scenes and the Ellen scenes again, here's what I've worked out.

...

Does that sound about right? (Don't answer that.)

You're missing one little thing.

- The First Cylon War is engulfing the 12 Colonies. The Final Five get there and make a deal with the Cylons: stop the war, and we'll show you how to make human-like Cylons. ...

And gave them access to Resurrection.

[RedWolf]

On the 13th tribe timeline is sketchy. One account said they left 4000, Ellen's account said 3000, their holy scriptures about Earth are dated 3600.

Plus you have to account when the Zodiac map was introduced on Kobol.

Hell maybe it can be explained that since they didn't have FTL they did it at sublight speeds. Then again how do one fit the Pythia account?

The Final Five comic though not canonical tries to fit all the holes in the timeline.

Edited December 29, 2009 by RedWolf

[Gubaba]

Just watched "Deadlocked" late last night...seemed like more of a set-up episode than anything else. Ellen coming back to the fleet (she appeared so reasonable when talking with Cavil, and now she's back to the same ol' Ellen we all know and...um..."love" is kind of strong word, don't you think? Anyway, it's weird. I guess her jealous, petty, personality pattern is programmed pretty deep within her, not easy to change...).

I'm sensing that Chief is going to try to get back with Boomer. I also sense that it's not going to work.

And I'm guessing Caprica Six is going to go seriously apeshit at some point.

Oh, and hey! Sam's brain is back! Usually, I'd guess that he probably doesn't remember anything more, but since we've only got a handful of episodes left, anything is possible. And anyway, it might not matter any more. Most of the backstory exposition seems to have already been taken care of.

[Gubaba]

Wow..."Someone to Watch Over Me"...now THAT was a great episode.

Although, thanks to RedWolf saying something about Daniel seeming like a musician (saying that Ellen said something like that to Cavil, when she said nothing of the kind), I'm pretty sure that the piano player is Daniel.

Anyway, wow...Boomer's pretty awful. Although I almost cried when Chief Tyrol went upstairs in their "house" and saw their "child."

I'm also guessing that either Maybe-Daniel is either Starbuck's father, or else he's somehow tapping into her memories and making himself seem like her father...or maybe he's not even really there, since I don't think any of the other characters interacted with him. Tigh and Tori seemed focused on Starbuck rather than the guy she was playing with... I dunno.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Gubaba

[Gubaba]

By the way...I forgot to mention: I loved John Hodgman's cameo as the brain surgeon. Although I have to say that if I was going in for brain surgery and saw him there, I'd get out of that hospital any way that I could...

[azrael]

I'm also guessing that either Maybe-Daniel is either Starbuck's father, or else he's somehow tapping into her memories and making himself seem like her father...or maybe he's not even really there, since I don't think any of the other characters interacted with him. Tigh and Tori seemed focused on Starbuck rather than the guy she was playing with... I dunno.

Nope. RDM has come out saying "Daniel" is NOT Starbuck's father. In the commentary/Podcast for "Island in a Stream of Stars", he will point this out. So don't worry about the "Daniel" model. In fact, delete it from your head.

[Gubaba]

Well, I'm here. Right at the gateway to the finale.

I watched the extended version of "Islanded in a Stream of Stars," which, again, seemed to be mostly set-up, kind of keeping all the balls in the air while catching none of them.

It's funny...it feels like I'm approaching the end of Galactica (the ship), but not the end of Galactica (the show).

Really, I was expecting that by the point, I could really see the end rushing towards me, but it honestly feels like it could keep going on and on...except that their abandoning the ship.

Anyway, before I start the final DVD, I'm going to watch The Plan. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow. I'm not sure yet.

[David Hingtgen]

No. Don't wait. End the series. Then watch the plan. If for no other reason than emotional impact etc.

Same reason as Star Wars---don't watch it chronologically. Watch it in the order it was produced.

[Gubaba]

No. Don't wait. End the series. Then watch the plan. If for no other reason than emotional impact etc.

Same reason as Star Wars---don't watch it chronologically. Watch it in the order it was produced.

*sigh*

Okay. Will do, sir.

[eugimon]

there's no real reason to wait.. the brother cavil stuff is minor in The Plan and it just expands on what's already shown and doesn't really present anything new.

[RedWolf]

Daniel or Number Seven is another recon.

Remember ther were supposed to be 12 Cylon models. Now there are 13 because they gave Athena/Boomer's model the Number Eight.

[eugimon]

Daniel or Number Seven is another recon.

Remember ther were supposed to be 12 Cylon models. Now there are 13 because they gave Athena/Boomer's model the Number Eight.

Boomer/Athena was always a cylon, she's revealed as one at the end of the mini series. There are 12 cylons because number 7 was canned and scrapped.

Edited December 30, 2009 by eugimon

[RedWolf]

Boomer/Athena was always a cylon, she's revealed as one at the end of the mini series. There are 12 cylons because number 7 was canned and scrapped.

Point is the writers wrote themselves in a corner by skipping a number and making the Final Five.

The six models don't even remember a number seven model existed.

Also basically it puts into perspective the Guardians in Razor. Why were they running away from being scrapped? Somehow John managed a coup takeover.

[eugimon]

Point is the writers wrote themselves in a corner by skipping a number and making the Final Five.

The six models don't even remember a number seven model existed.

Also basically it puts into perspective the Guardians in Razor. Why were they running away from being scrapped? Somehow John managed a coup takeover.

But that's not a retcon. They never said there were only ever 12 human cylon models or anything of the sort, only that there "are", as in "currently" 12 models.

[RedWolf]

But that's not a retcon. They never said there were only ever 12 human cylon models or anything of the sort, only that there "are", as in "currently" 12 models.

In the end of the mini-series a note was left at Adama's quarters saying there are 12 models.

Later confirmed when Baltar asked Caprica Six while in Cylon custody.

Thing is as RDM confirmed they were making Battlestar Galactica along without an overall plan.

[eugimon]

In the end of the mini-series a note was left at Adama's quarters saying there are 12 models.

Later confirmed when Baltar asked Caprica Six while in Cylon custody.

Thing is as RDM confirmed they were making Battlestar Galactica along without an overall plan.

right "are" not "ever"

It's a vagueness that got exploited. a retcon is actually changing something that was explicitly stated, like when marvel turned Wolverine's claws into a mutation and not an implant. Or when DC decided Batman hated guns even though early on he would use Gatling guns and what not.

[RedWolf]

right "are" not "ever"

It's a vagueness that got exploited. a retcon is actually changing something that was explicitly stated, like when marvel turned Wolverine's claws into a mutation and not an implant. Or when DC decided Batman hated guns even though early on he would use Gatling guns and what not.

Saul Tigh was originally supposed to be a First Cylon War veteran then they reconned him as a Cylon.

They wrote the Final Five not as Cylon creations but the fabled 13th Tribe.

The writers had to plug that number 7 thus they mentioned Daniel. As stated Daniel has no further plot other than being dead and showing how much a monster Cavil is.

[David Hingtgen]

Can't Tigh be both? (isn't he?)

[RedWolf]

Can't Tigh be both? (isn't he?)

Saul Tigh described how the old Centurions really hated humans ,looking at their eye as it gutted someone, as he was a survivor of two ship boardings in his record.

Now it turns out, being planted, those memories are false.

Who knows those memories may still be true but it isn't the Centurions of the First Cylon War.

That is if the 13th tribe had its own Cylon War. A ruined Earth points to such a posibility.

[David Hingtgen]

Tigh is the man he believes himself to be, though.

[eugimon]

Saul Tigh was originally supposed to be a First Cylon War veteran then they reconned him as a Cylon.

They wrote the Final Five not as Cylon creations but the fabled 13th Tribe.

The writers had to plug that number 7 thus they mentioned Daniel. As stated Daniel has no further plot other than being dead and showing how much a monster Cavil is.

that's not a retcon either. We never see him in any flashback going back farther than when he and bill are washed up drunks.

None of these things are retcons, at best they're red herrings.

again, with wolverine, we're actually SHOWN the cybernetic implants that house his claws, we actually SEE batman with a bat-gatling gun firing like a madman off of a roof. Then one day, those things didn't happen, that's a retcon.

Edited December 30, 2009 by eugimon

[RedWolf]

that's not a retcon either. We never see him in any flashback going back farther than when he and bill are washed up drunks.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#False_Backstory

Saul Tigh was supposedly born on the colony of Aerelon[3].

Tigh began his military career as a deckhand[4]. By the second year of the first Cylon War, he was serving as a gunner's mate onboard the Brenik. His ship was boarded by the Cylons where he and others fought in hand to hand combat, during the bloodiest time of that war. It was during this battle that he saw his first dead man, Duncan Rafferty, who was violently vivisected by Centurions ("Valley of Darkness", deleted scene). His ship was subsequently destroyed and he survived. He was transferred to another unnamed ship, which succumbed to a similar fate as his original ship. Having borne witness to many a bloody combat, he became emotionally scarred, which had, among other impetuses, led him to alcoholism.

Tigh and Adama's first meeting.

Tigh eventually achieved the rank of Chief Petty Officer. When Viper pilot numbers began running low in the war, Tigh was selected for Colonial officer candidate school and was reassigned as a Viper pilot.[5] As a pilot, he demonstrated considerable skill, earning several medals while posted aboard Battlestar Athena.[6] After the cessation of hostilities, he was dismissed from service.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#Notes

Tigh is supposedly a third-generation Colonial soldier. His father was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat and his grandfather served under President Mueller. Also, Tigh was a published military historian until personal problems became apparent (Miniseries, deleted scene). However, given Tigh's recently-revealed Cylon nature, his family history may be a fabrication. Tigh's interest in military history has not been mentioned on screen after the Miniseries, although he mentions various Cylon tactics in use from the Cylon War that came to save Galactica after being boarded by Centurions (Valley of Darkness).

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#References

# Tigh was supposedly born in 69 BCH, ("Valley of Darkness" deleted scene), and Season 3 takes place in 2 AHC.

# ↑ Serial number from his dogtags and confirmed by the studios for the QMX replica.

# ↑ "Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62. - He has recently been revealed as a Cylon presumably making this point moot.

# ↑ Ibid. "Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out."

# ↑ Podcast: Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down

# ↑ Ibid. "Tigh joined the Colonial officer candidate school and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the battlestar Athena."

# ↑ Ibid. "Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, whom he courted and married within two months, about 7 years before the Miniseries. Unfortunately, Ellen did not take well to military life and her repeated infidelities drove Tigh back into the bottle. The two separated shortly before the Cylon attack.

Tell me again why RDM didn't do any retcons?

Same thing with Galen Tyrol. Supposedly his father was of the clergy. How do you put Sam Anders as a professional athlete in society? Heck Tory was just a new extra secondary character. Can't say the same for Ellen as of season 1 it was hinted by Head Six to Baltar she is a Cylon.

Thing is originally these characters weren't planned as Cylons. That is why it is a recon.

[Keith]

Things that are "planned" then "changed" before they're "implemented" are not retcons, they're story revisions. If they had been firmly placed in the story, and then changed, they'd be retcons.

[eugimon]

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#False_Backstory

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#Notes

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh#References

Tell me again why RDM didn't do any retcons?

Same thing with Galen Tyrol. Supposedly his father was of the clergy. How do you put Sam Anders as a professional athlete in society? Heck Tory was just a new extra secondary character. Can't say the same for Ellen as of season 1 it was hinted by Head Six to Baltar she is a Cylon.

Thing is originally these characters weren't planned as Cylons. That is why it is a recon.

I don't think you're clear as to what retcon means. If your definition holds, then everytime a show or movie reveals something new about a character, it's a retcon. No, that's just a reveal. A retcon has to contradict something that's explicitly stated and/or shown to be true.

Just because the final 5 talk about their pasts doesn't make those pasts true. And whether or not the writers intended from day 1 for them to be such doesn't make it a retcon either. If we actually SEE a young Saul fighting off cylons and other people say, "yeah, I was there with him, he was badass" and then in season 4 it suddenly didn't happen... THEN it's a retcon.

None of those things are contradicted by the explanation that they were placed in colonial society and given false memories, nothing is shown that proves their pre-reveal histories to be "true" in the same way we see Bill Adama's life as a fighter pilot, as a child, etc. Other characters share those experiences. Nothing in the show, ever, shows saul before he and adama are a bunch of washups which is where their personal history begins. THAT is why it's not a retcon, it doesn't contradict or change anything.

and I never said there weren't "any" retcons, just that the cylons and their count are not retcons. Actual retcons would be like the base star redesigns in the middle of the show.

Edited December 30, 2009 by eugimon

[-Snowblind-]

I agree that what was done with the final five wasn't a retcon, but it was sloppy plotting. They spent two and a half seasons building up these characters (well, Tigh, Tyrol and Anders, anyway) only to throw it all away because making them Cylons sounded like a good idea at the time. It would be different if it had been planned all along, if the writers had been consistent with developing these characters from the beginning of the series to the end, but they weren't.

To my mind, they took several good, interesting, well developed characters and replaced them with cliches for the sake of a 'shocking' reveal. They never could make it fit (not that they even attempted to) the world they had already established. Like I said before - Anders was an athlete on a pro-sports team - his entire life would be on record. Tigh was reinstated as a captain - how does that happen without having the experience and records to justify it? (It's easy to say his records were falsified, but is Colonial security really that bad? And what about all of the people he would have served with over the years? There's no way the Cavil and company could have simply made up the depth and breadth of knowledge and memories that someone with Tigh's background would have.)

There's also the problem with the differences in age - Tigh was shown as appearing 'younger' (well, he had more hair, and it wasn't gray) in the flashbacks with Adama, so if he's a Cylon, then it establishes that the Cylons age. How do you explain Tyrol, Anders and Tory who all appear much younger, who have much shorter back stories, but were all integrated with the colonies at the same time?

It's not the idea that these characters were Cylons that bothered me, it's the way they undercut good characters for the sake of a big reveal and the logical inconsistencies that followed that bothered me the most. This could have been avoided, and been much more interesting if it had been planned and plotted all along.

[Gubaba]

A fitting end.

I'm sure I'll have more to say later, but I just kind of want to sit back a savor it for a while (and since I watched the two-and-a-half hour extended edition, there's a LOT to savor).

I wish RedWolf hadn't told me that the first earth they find isn't OUR earth, though. It didn't ruin it for me, but it made it much less of a mindfrak tha it otherwise would've been.

[Mog]

Glad you enjoyed the ride.

I still love Lee's quote about our science racing ahead of our hearts. It's great little quote that's often overlooked.

Just curious though: what two words did you scream when Galactica rammed into the HolyFrakkenShitStar?