Battlestar Galactica Discussion III

[Penguin]

I still have yet to hear anyone say that the original Galactica was genuinely good, or explain why they like it in any terms other than nostalgia. I don't care if its the 1970s, the 1870s, or the 2270s...bad storytelling is bad storytelling. Why bother coming up with excuses for it?

lol!! Agreed, it does sound like excuses for the story telling. Again if you were 7 y/o watching BSG for the 1st time, you think Wow this is so cool. Then its like watching Robotech for the 1st time in many many years and hearing Minmay's voice crash through your ear drums like a stick of Dynamite!!

And then you think, wow.... when I was a kid I thought it was soooo cool!! (Whoops, I might have been wrong...) So why there are fans of the original BSG who say its better or won't watch the re-imagined version is beyond me, one is superior, one was not.

Well, I think "genuinely good" is a wildly subjective phrase, but I do enjoy the original BSG and not just for nostalgia. In fact, I'm pretty draconian when it comes to dumping my "misty childhood" recollections if they don't measure up to my adult sensibilities, so nostalgia ain't part of it. I don't compare them as to which is "superior", 'cause I don't see the point in drawing such a distinction. They are different, and I like what I like.

For me, it's all about character. Good characters draw me in and hold my interest. The new BSG would have lost me in the miniseries if I wasn't interested in the characters. I would have missed the

SFX glory of the Bucket dropping in on New Caprica

and not blinked an eye.

Same goes for the original BSG. I like the characters (most of them anyway... Boxey I never liked even as a kid). I like the way the actors portrayed them. For me, there's heart and charm in the cast and the characters, and I continue to enjoy it in subsequent viewings.

There are some truly cringe-inducing episodes ("The Young Lords" being one I skip every time I watch the series). There is frequently cheesy dialogue. There are some really bewildering plot holes (as with the aforementioned "where do all these humans keep coming from?"). None of this offends me as a viewer, though I completely understand how it could be a real stumbling block for someone with different tastes. It's not an "excuse for bad storytelling"... I just don't find the storytelling bad enough to interfere with my enjoyment of the show.

Speaking with one or two of the more coherent of those who ride the GINO train ('cause there are some real frothing-at-the-mouth nutjobs in the anti-Moore camp), the primary complaint I've heard about the new BSG is the change in tone. They are invested in the lighter, nobler, optimistic tone of the original. Seeing their beloved characters "degraded" into flawed and fault-ridden people is, to them, a betrayal of the spirit they associate with BSG. It's why they call it "Galactica In Name Only". To them, that tone is integral to the identity of "Battlestar Galactica", and the re-imagined version is a violation of that. They can't just let it be, because they've yearned for a continuation of that story and tone, but they didn't get it. If you try to raise the point that trying to continue that old style would die a quick death in the modern market, it just doesn't sink in. Like a lot of die-hard fans, they can't see past their own community.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Penguin

[-Snowblind-]

May want to add some Spoiler tags... Gubaba hasn't started S3 yet...

[Penguin]

My bad. Apologies all around.

[Gubaba]

Well, I think "genuinely good" is a wildly subjective phrase, but I do enjoy the original BSG and not just for nostalgia. In fact, I'm pretty draconian when it comes to dumping my "misty childhood" recollections if they don't measure up to my adult sensibilities, so nostalgia ain't part of it. I don't compare them as to which is "superior", 'cause I don't see the point in drawing such a distinction. They are different, and I like what I like.

For me, it's all about character. Good characters draw me in and hold my interest. The new BSG would have lost me in the miniseries if I wasn't interested in the characters. I would have missed

the SFX glory of the Bucket dropping in on New Caprica

and not blinked an eye.

Same goes for the original BSG. I like the characters (most of them anyway... Boxey I never liked even as a kid). I like the way the actors portrayed them. For me, there's heart and charm in the cast and the characters, and I continue to enjoy it in subsequent viewings.

There are some truly cringe-inducing episodes ("The Young Lords" being one I skip every time I watch the series). There is frequently cheesy dialogue. There are some really bewlidering plot holes (as with the aforementioned "where do all these humans keep coming from?"). None of this offends me as a viewer, though I completely understand how it could be a real stumbling block for someone with different tastes. It's not an "excuse for bad storytelling"... I just don't find the storytelling bad enough to interfere with my enjoyment of the show.

Speaking with one or two of the more coherent of those who ride the GINO train ('cause there are some real frothing-at-the-mouth nutjobs in the anti-Moore camp), the primary complaint I've heard about the new BSG is the change in tone. They are invested in the lighter, nobler, optimistic tone of the original. Seeing their beloved characters "degraded" into flawed and fault-ridden people is, to them, a betrayal of the spirit they associate with BSG. It's why they call it "Galactica In Name Only". To them, that tone is integral to the identity of "Battlestar Galactica", and the re-imagined version is a violation of that. They can't just let it be, because they've yearned for a continuation of that story and tone, but they didn't get it. If you try to raise the point that trying to continue that old style would die a quick death in the modern market, it just doesn't sink in. Like a lot of die-hard fans, they can't see past their own community.

The characters and their interaction...now THAT makes sense as a big part of the appeal of the show. It's also one of the things I find myself disliking. It's a warm, familial comradeship that seems deliberately designed to make people (especially children) feel "safe." Any actual tension or strife between the main characters is usually the result of a temporary misunderstanding, easily cleared up (like Starbuck terminating his friendship with Apollo four doubting that Fred Astaire was his dad), or else is played for comedic purposes (like Athena turning on the steam vents when Starbuck was making out with Cassiopeia). I submit that none of it feels terribly real, now or in 1978, but that's an easily debatable opinion.

As for whether it would sell now, I think it would...as a family-friendly adventure show, which is what the original show was.

So I can see the tone and the characters being an appealing part of the show...I just wish they were placed in more interesting or creative situations.

[David Hingtgen]

Man, it's hard to spoiler tag stuff when you quote the spoilers...

[Penguin]

The characters and their interaction...now THAT makes sense as a big part of the appeal of the show. It's also one of the things I find myself disliking. It's a warm, familial comradeship that seems deliberately designed to make people (especially children) feel "safe." Any actual tension or strife between the main characters is usually the result of a temporary misunderstanding, easily cleared up (like Starbuck terminating his friendship with Apollo four doubting that Fred Astaire was his dad), or else is played for comedic purposes (like Athena turning on the steam vents when Starbuck was making out with Cassiopeia). I submit that none of it feels terribly real, now or in 1978, but that's an easily debatable opinion.

As for whether it would sell now, I think it would...as a family-friendly adventure show, which is what the original show was.

So I can see the tone and the characters being an appealing part of the show...I just wish they were placed in more interesting or creative situations.

A "warm, familial comradeship" doesn't "feel terribly real"? That's bleak. It definitely doesn't make for very gripping drama, but it feels kinda real in my life... which wouldn't be a very gripping drama either, unless you're enthralled by interesting and creative solutions in Engineering.

[Gubaba]

Man, it's hard to spoiler tag stuff when you quote the spoilers...

I started skimming when he was talking about the new series...I completely missed the spoiler, so when I read -Snowblind-'s comment, I just thought, "Spoilers? All he talked about was 'The Young Lords.' That's one of the OLD episodes!"

Hooray for obliviousness!

[Penguin]

Man, it's hard to spoiler tag stuff when you quote the spoilers...

Nonetheless, kudos for your diligent efforts to correct my gaff.

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah, I was hoping I caught it before Gubaba saw it, but it was easy to miss (I myself had to re-read it to catch it). Good thing Gubaba only skimmed the post!

[Gubaba]

Well now...THAT was a bit of whiplash.

I tried to finish the original series before this weekend, since I knew I'd be seeing my DVD provider today. I didn't make it., mostly because I didn't realize that "Greetings from Earth" was two hours long. (It, as always, wasn't very good, but at least it had the saving grace of being really f*cking weird. From the discussion of bacteria and contamination that ended up going nowhere, to the "nod, nod, wink wink, it's EARTH! No wait, it's not," to the song and dance number done by the "comical" androids, it was full of surprises...which is welcome enough relief, I guess).

Anyway, four episodes left. Guess I'll rent it again next weekend.

So...going from the pristine, gleaming world of the original Galactica to the grimy, unpleasant surface of New Caprica. As I said...a bit of whiplash there.

And then, today, my DVD provider brought me Season 3 of the new series, with STRICT instructions to watch the webisodes first. So I did. They were adequate, I suppose. Clearly just a prelude to episode 1 of Season 3. And they did a pretty good job of telling a single story in three-minute increments.

But I felt like I must have accidentally skipped some when I started watching the first episode. Tigh in dentention? Missing an eye? ("It looked like a hard-boiled egg." Ewww...) I have to hand it to them...Season 2 ended on an extraordinarily grim note, with the promise of very bad things happening, and many more to come. Season 3 begins by letting it play out, and things seem very bleak indeed.

What the Cylons hope to accomplish is the mystery I'm REALLY curious about now. The end of Season 2 implied that they had decided to leave humanity alone, until they suddenly arrived. Lucy Lawless here mentioned that this is their plan for coexisting with mankind. But...there has to be more to the Cylon plan than subjugating humanity and impregnating Starbuck.

Lee's pudginess was unexpected, and kind of sad.

I liked how Starbuck's room is a replica of...Starbuck's room. I also wonder how many Cylons she's "killed." One a day? For four months?

I also like how they somehow managed to create an atmosphere where I really do feel like almost no one is safe, that almost any character could be killed at any time. As such, I find it easier to list the characters I'm NOT worried about than the ones that I am...Adama, Lee, Starbuck, and Baltar. Somehow, I think they'll all be fine survive. Eveyone else seems...expendable somehow. Especially Gaeta...I'm POSITIVE they'll find out about his espionage.

And of course...shocking ending. A season ago, I would've been glad that Baltar wasn't there, because, as horrible as he was, as much as he did little things that sabotaged the Galactica and its mission...he was still likable; funny, even. But now, he just seems pathetic and useless (of course, I'm also basing this on the end of Season 2, since he was barely in this episode).

Anyway, good start. I'm looking forward to seeing where this is going.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Gubaba

[David Hingtgen]

In short--every character's experiences during this period will pay off, story-wise and emotionally. May happen mid-season, maybe not until the last ep of the series. But IMHO nothing is "unimportant" for the next group of eps.

(MAN it's hard to say anything without spoiling anything--there's SO many things)

Side note---I didn't watch the webisodes until AFTER Season 3. Wish someone had told me to watch them first.

PS---what episode are you at?

[Gaijin]

I envy the thrill of watching the show the first time. So many exciting moments, surprises, and topped with a truly satisfying end, which most shows never get right.

[Dobber]

I think we are all waiting for him to hit THAT particular episode What was it episode 4 of s3?

Chris

[-Snowblind-]

Episode 4 it was... I brought out the DVD and watched the highlight reel from that episode a few times already...

[the white drew carey]

Wow, it is like reliving our first times vicariously through Gubaba.

[Gubaba]

ISide note---I didn't watch the webisodes until AFTER Season 3. Wish someone had told me to watch them first.

Like I said, my DVD Provider is good. I asked her about Razor last week. She said, "Oh yeah, I have the uncut version, but I'm not going to give it to you until you finish Season 3."

I think a lot of it was that Season 3 was where she started, and she had to kind of feel her way backwards, so wants me to watch it in the "proper" order, because she didn't...if that makes sense.

PS---what episode are you at?

Finished episode 1 last night. I'll probably watch 2 (and maybe 3) this evening.

I kind of want to watch episode 2 right now, but I've got some Macross translating to do (I'm finishing up the Christmas album now).

[-Snowblind-]

You may want to watch Ep 3 and 4 together... being a 2-part episode an' all.

[David Hingtgen]

I was going to say that too---watch 3 and 4 together.

[Lindem Herz]

It's not like if Gubaba would want to watch ep 3 & 4 together. It's more like if he could possibly watch the end of the 3rd and not want to go into the 4th RIGHT FRAKKING AWAY.

Seriously, man, go straight up to the end of ep 4, Exodus Pt. 2. It's definitively my favourite Galactica episode, and probably my favourite live action tv series episode ever. I only wish I could be there to watch your face every time McCreary & the Battlestar Orchestra start pummelling on the taikos.

[Gubaba]

Lord almighty...you guys are saying that the third episode is the one with the cliffhanger...? 'Cause episode two was pretty harrowing. (Strangely, I'm not at all concerned for the well-being of Roslin and Tom Zarek, but very concerned for Cally. The fact that they superimposed the machine-gun fire sound effect over the shot of her running probably had a lot to do with that, however.)

Kara's child is something I really should have seen coming, and her ambivalence was played well. Incidentally, I'm enormously grateful they haven't played the usual sci-fi trick of making the children magically grow up in a matter of hours.

But yeah...lots of quotable lines here, from Tigh's "We're on the side of the demons" speech to Sharon asking Adama how he knows he can trust her, and his response: "I don't. But that's what trust is."

Good stuff. Season 3 so far is a very different show than the previous two seasons, and I like that. Watching the original series, it's clear how easy it is to slip into a rote formula, and it was only through the addition of angels and devils and the fascist "Eastern Alliance" that shook the series out of its predictable doldrums (and a little over half a season in, no less! How would the original have survived if it had been picked up for a second or a third season?). Here, we've got all the same characters we had before, but thrust into different roles and different relationships than they had in the last season. And while I wouldn't call the last couple of episodes "heaps of fun!" or "HUGELY ENTERTAINING!", there is a certain gusto that comes out of taking a good cast with good writers and directors, and shaking everything up. Watching Tigh become steely and hard and cruel, and Tyrol become a concerned family man, and Kara become a mother, and Baltar become merely pathetic...well, there's a certain joy to it.

[Gubaba]

Finished Exodus Part I. Proceeding to Part II immediately.

[Mog]

Watching Tigh become steely and hard and cruel, and Tyrol become a concerned family man, and Kara become a mother, and Baltar become merely pathetic...well, there's a certain joy to it.

Don't forget the Old Man calling Apollo a "fat-ass." There was much "joy" in that too.

Exodus Part II, huh? Strap yourself in, and hold on tight. It's gonna be a hell of a ride emotionally and viscerally.

[Gubaba]

Now THAT was a hell of an episode!

The "Adama Maneuver" was exhilarating, and the Pegasus send-off was pretty damn awesome, too.

Much as this show is not about mecha porn, it's nice to see it occasionally, and that was mecha porn at its most pornish.

Nice to see that most people made it out alive, as well...although Kara getting played about "her daughter" pissed me off, since I got played as well. (Quick! Time to go back and edit my previous post so that it seems like I wasn't fooled! )

Still a lot of story threads remaining open...most of them involving Hera. And I'm guessing that sometime, Sharon's going to have to find out that Adama DID lie to her. And I wonder where Baltar's going to go...I hope not on some ridiculous elevated chair on a Base Star, with a light strategically placed under his face in order to make him look evil...

[-Snowblind-]

...

Still a lot of story threads remaining open...most of them involving Hera. And I'm guessing that sometime, Sharon's going to have to find out that Adama DID lie to her. And I wonder where Baltar's going to go...I hope not on some ridiculous elevated chair on a Base Star, with a light strategically placed under his face in order to make him look evil...

Well, it's not a chair, really...

As for the rest of the episode... The awesome visuals and good drama make up for the sillier aspects of the plan as it unfolded... (I mean really... sacrificing the newer, bigger, more powerful, and fully armoured Pegasus and it's invaluable fighter factory to save the beat-to-hell, half mothballed Galactica? O.o I know, I know, it looked great, and they couldn't very well change the name of the show to Battlestar Pegasus, but... couldn't there have been a more plausible way to kill it off?)

Edited November 30, 2009 by -Snowblind-

[David Hingtgen]

although Kara getting played about "her daughter" pissed me off, since I got played as well.

"One last mind-frak" from Leoben. He can torture her beyond the grave... (well, you know what I mean)

BTW---for a lot of characters, you still haven't seen the things that'll REALLY affect them later in the series. It's just getting started with the events on New Caprica.

PS---the "Adama manuever" was extremely stressful on the ship. The CGI model is forever dented and burned. Be sure to take a good look in the future eps.

[Mog]

I still love how the beginning of this episode played out with Tigh and Ellen having their little "discussion."

It's still a personal favorite of mine.

[eugimon]

"One last mind-frak" from Leoben. He can torture her beyond the grave... (well, you know what I mean)

BTW---for a lot of characters, you still haven't seen the things that'll REALLY affect them later in the series. It's just getting started with the events on New Caprica.

PS---the "Adama manuever" was extremely stressful on the ship. The CGI model is forever dented and burned. Be sure to take a good look in the future eps.

It's just one of the great things about the show, just like the characters carry their scars throughout the show, so does the ship. No magically repairs between episodes.

[RedWolf]

Still a lot of story threads remaining open...most of them involving Hera. And I'm guessing that sometime, Sharon's going to have to find out that Adama DID lie to her. And I wonder where Baltar's going to go...I hope not on some ridiculous elevated chair on a Base Star, with a light strategically placed under his face in order to make him look evil...

Actually that was all Roslin's work.

[Dobber]

He finally got there!!! I love how the camera pulls away from the Galactica as it is getting shot to hell and the music gets more somber and quiet and then BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM! Peagsus comes charging in and blows one base ship to hell right off the bat. You knew it was comming but still a great sequence and by far the best peice of action music in the entire series IMO.

As everyone else said you will see lasting effects on the characters and the ship for the remainder of the show. I really love the "malcontent ass chewing" that is given in a comming episode.

There are still some nice visual effect type episodes or sequences in the remainder of the show but, IMO, Exodus part 2 was the last great one.

Chris

Edited November 30, 2009 by Dobber

[Gubaba]

I still love how the beginning of this episode played out with Tigh and Ellen having their little "discussion."

It's still a personal favorite of mine.

That confused me...did they put poison in her drink? When? And did she know it was poisoned?

[RedWolf]

That confused me...did they put poison in her drink? When? And did she know it was poisoned?

A reference to how the Greeks used to hand out death sentences. A poisoned cup. That's how Socrates died after a very democratic vote of Athens jury of 500. He was given a choice of how he should die.

Ellen sold out to protect Saul, Saul in turn as leader of the resistance has a responsibility to hand out punishments to collaborators.

Yeah its Fraked up.

[azrael]

BTW---for a lot of characters, you still haven't seen the things that'll REALLY affect them later in the series. It's just getting started with the events on New Caprica.

Prepare for lots of character moments stemming from the New Caprica-arc.

PS---the "Adama manuever" was extremely stressful on the ship. The CGI model is forever dented and burned. Be sure to take a good look in the future eps.

Also keep it in mind as you go through the series. It'll come back.

[Lindem Herz]

Actually that was all Roslin's work.

Yeah. Only Roslin, Tory, and Cottle know that the Hera is alive, and Cottle doesn't even know what happened with her.

(I mean really... sacrificing the newer, bigger, more powerful, and fully armoured Pegasus and it's invaluable fighter factory to save the beat-to-hell, half mothballed Galactica? O.o I know, I know, it looked great, and they couldn't very well change the name of the show to Battlestar Pegasus, but... couldn't there have been a more plausible way to kill it off?)

You know, the more I think about it, the more I wish RDM had taken the third option: Make Pegasus survive New Caprica, but pound it so damn bad (thanks to Lee's inexperience in ship to ship combat and Cylon reinforcements while it covered Colonial One's escape or something) that using it as a ship of the line would be impractical if not almost suicidal, and use it as storage space and Viper production facility under a civilian or some minor officer. Galactica becomes the 'cool ship' again, retain some plot flexibility,

and when Gaeta and Zarek begin their insurrection in Season 4, they could have even commandeered it and taken on the beaten up Bucket on basically even terms.

But what's done is done, and still works

Ellen sold out to protect Saul, Saul in turn as leader of the resistance has a responsibility to hand out punishments to collaborators.

Yeah its Fraked up.

Actually, I think that's what's really powerful about this episode. Even with all the wonderful mecha porn, we still have one of the best characters of the series basically rip his own heart out because if he didn't, everything that he was fighting for would have been meaningless. He does it, and knows right there and then that his mission to save the people of the colonies has failed. Some, a lot, will never be coming back from that planet, including the woman he loves and himself. Tigh will never be the same after New Caprica, in a lot of visceral ways. Even with one of the most awesome combat sequences since the Death Star II, when he tells that to Adama at the end of the episode makes the whole thing incredibly... bitter.

That said, I think Galactica has some of the best written and most emotive "battle couple" scenes I've seen, when done right. When done wrong... well, Lee's love life sucks.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Lindem Herz

[David Hingtgen]

Tigh is *the* best character IMHO, not one of the best. I started thinking that near the end of season 2, and 3 and 4 only confirmed it.

[Gubaba]

A reference to how the Greeks used to hand out death sentences. A poisoned cup. That's how Socrates died after a very democratic vote of Athens jury of 500. He was given a choice of how he should die.

Um...yeah, I know that. I did a year of NOTHING BUT Classical Studies my freshman year in college. Most of Plato and Aristotle, Xenophon, Homer, Thucydides, Herodotus, all the Greek tragedies and most of the comedies, Euclid's "Elements of Geometry," so on and so forth. If it didn't get lost at Alexandria, I've probably read it (remembering it, though...that's the tough part. )

Ellen sold out to protect Saul, Saul in turn as leader of the resistance has a responsibility to hand out punishments to collaborators.

Yeah its Fraked up.

So when Ellen said, "I need a drink," she knew what was in it...? She's a lot stronger than I gave her credit for...

And yes...I agree with David. Tigh is probably the best-written character in the show. I find him difficult to like, but easy to admire...even when I disagree with him or feel pity for him.