Battlestar Galactica Discussion III

[Gubaba]

Sorry... I haven't read the thread. I finally got around to start watching the series a couple of weeks ago...so far I'm up to episode 10 of season 1, and I'm really enjoying it.

Part of the fun is that (as I detailed elsewhere) I tried to get through the original series as a prelude to the new series. I remember loving the old series when I was a kid...but this time 'round, I found it trite and dull. The new version was EXACTLY what I needed to wash the taste of the '70s one out of my mouth.

[VFTF1]

I watched one episode of the new series - can't remember which one... and it was like 4 years ago - but I did enjoy it. I found the visuals, the acting and the tone/mood to be quite good.

But alas - when one spends every day and night re-watching Gurren Lagann, one finds it hard to keep up with what's new...or in this case...5 years old?

Pete

[Ghost Train]

I find it disturbing that you can spend day&night rewatching Gurren lagann >_< ....

[Gubaba]

I watched one episode of the new series - can't remember which one... and it was like 4 years ago - but I did enjoy it. I found the visuals, the acting and the tone/mood to be quite good.

But alas - when one spends every day and night re-watching Gurren Lagann, one finds it hard to keep up with what's new...or in this case...5 years old?

Pete

The difference for me is that some Macross fan dude who lives in Poland recommended Gurenn Lagann, while a cute lesbian of my acquaintance basically forced her Battlestar Galactica DVD collection on me.

Really, which would YOU make time to watch first...?

[Ghost Train]

As a master multi-tasker or serious-ADHD sufferer (depends on perspective) I would watch Gurrenn Lagan, BSG, and The Lesbian at the same time....

[Gubaba]

As a master multi-tasker or serious-ADHD sufferer (depends on perspective) I would watch Gurrenn Lagan, BSG, and The Lesbian at the same time....

Well, I need SOME time for Macross translating...

[mospeadamacrosstech]

edward james olmos has talked about another movie set on earth with the full cast,, so who knows. If it's gonna be like The Plan, I'd rather they didn't.

Getting some insight into the Brother Cavils was interesting and all but it was just kinda meh.

Yea. I see where Jane was trying to go when she wrote it, but I just don't think they reached that plateau. I am not sure what they should have done. But it was not really worthy of the BSG namesake.

[Beltane70]

Sorry... I haven't read the thread. I finally got around to start watching the series a couple of weeks ago...so far I'm up to episode 10 of season 1, and I'm really enjoying it.

Part of the fun is that (as I detailed elsewhere) I tried to get through the original series as a prelude to the new series. I remember loving the old series when I was a kid...but this time 'round, I found it trite and dull. The new version was EXACTLY what I needed to wash the taste of the '70s one out of my mouth.

I went through the same thing, Gubaba! Glad to see that I'm not alone in the "liked original as a kid, can't watch it as an adult' camp.

Buck Rogers was the same way.

[Gubaba]

I went through the same thing, Gubaba! Glad to see that I'm not alone in the "liked original as a kid, can't watch it as an adult' camp.

Buck Rogers was the same way.

Yeah...that's actually why I didn't watch the new series when it started...because I knew that the original series was best left to misty memories of wanting to have a robot dog (sorry, "daggit") and fight Cylons.

Some things are bad, even in hindsight (I also liked "Battle Beyond the Stars" when I was a kid...do I want to see it again? HELL NO!). But it allows me to have a hearty laugh whenever anyone refers to Battlestar Galactica as an example of "messing with the classics."

Almost done with Season 1 now...and enjoying it immensely.

[Gubaba]

Just finished Season 1.

[VFTF1]

I find it disturbing that you can spend day&night rewatching Gurren lagann >_< ....

I do too. But what can I say? I just love the show that much

The difference for me is that some Macross fan dude who lives in Poland recommended Gurenn Lagann, while a cute lesbian of my acquaintance basically forced her Battlestar Galactica DVD collection on me.

Really, which would YOU make time to watch first...?

I'd make time to watch Gurren Lagann first, of course! There's even an episode about this in Gurren Lagann, when our heros are lured into a spa full of bunny girls, masseuses, erotic lolis and harem who all turn out to be wearwolves intent on eating them.

In the end, butt-naked, our heros fight their way out of the pleasure den.

Moral: when women tempt you to watch BSG, even if they are lesbians, they are really wearwolves whose erotic play den is actually a giant robot that will pee your nude remains out of its' butt.

As a master multi-tasker or serious-ADHD sufferer (depends on perspective) I would watch Gurrenn Lagan, BSG, and The Lesbian at the same time....

Hm. Technically possible, but why do two sub-par things at the same time as doing the most interesting thing (GL being more interesting than even a live lesbian show)

I went through the same thing, Gubaba! Glad to see that I'm not alone

You also had lesbians come to you requesting that you watch their BSG collection?

If it's any consolation - I am 100% positive that the girl who showed me the one episode of BSG 4 years ago was ALSO a lesbian.

Sure of it.

So - the question must surely go out then: what is it with Battle Star Galactica and Lesbians?

Pete

[Gubaba]

You also had lesbians come to you requesting that you watch their BSG collection?

If it's any consolation - I am 100% positive that the girl who showed me the one episode of BSG 4 years ago was ALSO a lesbian.

Sure of it.

So - the question must surely go out then: what is it with Battle Star Galactica and Lesbians?

Pete

What can you do? The ladies love Starbuck.

[VFTF1]

Am I to infer that since lesbians (because we're talking about lesbians here, right?) love Starbuck - then Starbuck is a woman... or is it some butch thing where they admire him and want to be like him even though they aren't men?

Pete

[Gubaba]

Am I to infer that since lesbians (because we're talking about lesbians here, right?) love Starbuck - then Starbuck is a woman...

You infer correctly.

She also manages to be tougher than any ten guys on the ship while also being totally hot...which pissed off the guy who played Starbuck in the original series: http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedic...-in-castration/

[VFTF1]

Oh yeah - I read that. I liked that guy. He and I could have a beer and come to an understanding

But he shouldn't be that mad - the worse thing to do is get pissed at the new times. Better to be reserved about it. There are still girls out there who love guys like the original Starbuck.

But no girl likes a whiny guy.

But yeah...I remember reading that...

Pete

[eugimon]

You infer correctly.

She also manages to be tougher than any ten guys on the ship while also being totally hot...which pissed off the guy who played Starbuck in the original series: http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedic...-in-castration/

wow...small minded, bitter and not just a little misogynistic.

And delusional... him comparing Starbuck to Hamlet? What a joke, and completely missing the point that "Kara Thrace" isn't just his version of Starbuck but as a woman. The scripts and personal stories are different and even though Kara has enough machismo and testosterone to bury Dirk's fancy boy Starbuck, the writer's and Katee Sackhoff managed to never lose sight of the character's femininity and the very real differences between men and women.

Edited November 3, 2009 by eugimon

[VFTF1]

She also manages to be tougher than any ten guys on the ship while also being totally hot...which pissed off the guy who played Starbuck in the original series: http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedic...-in-castration/

wow...small minded, bitter and not just a little misogynistic.

I agree with Dirk Bennedict 101%. I love the article. I never read the whole thing - just snippets from wiki which I loved - but this..wow.

This guy is cooler than I thought for writing this article.

Hell - I think I'm going to invest in every show, movie, commercial and whatever else Dirk Benedict was ever in just to show my support for this dude.

And mind you - no - I am not judging the New BSG, which I haven't seen (and what I have seen seemed interesting actually) - but I am simply saying I like what this guy wrote. I think a lot of it is true, and I like his unrepentent masculinity and willingness to stick up for guys being guys.

Pete

EDIT: Ok - now I am positively amazed at Dirk Benedict. Clearly the guy has a solid classical education OR is an amazingly good thinker and writer - a true artist...on the same website, I found this:

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedic...ult/#more-26201

Again - it's not that I hate Mickey Mouse - it's more that I really like Dirk's ability to be introspective, I like the fact that he has a farm in Montana where he chops wood (since I happen to have a farm and chop wood and also think stuff like this while gathering the wood)...

This guy's cool!

I'm gonna have to go back and watch the original Battle Star Galactica.

Edited November 3, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

I agree with Dirk Bennedict 101%. I love the article. I never read the whole thing - just snippets from wiki which I loved - but this..wow.

This guy is cooler than I thought for writing this article.

Hell - I think I'm going to invest in every show, movie, commercial and whatever else Dirk Benedict was ever in just to show my support for this dude.

And mind you - no - I am not judging the New BSG, which I haven't seen (and what I have seen seemed interesting actually) - but I am simply saying I like what this guy wrote. I think a lot of it is true, and I like his unrepentent masculinity and willingness to stick up for guys being guys.

Pete

EDIT: Ok - now I am positively amazed at Dirk Benedict. Clearly the guy has a solid classical education OR is an amazingly good thinker and writer - a true artist...on the same website, I found this:

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedic...ult/#more-26201

Again - it's not that I hate Mickey Mouse - it's more that I really like Dirk's ability to be introspective, I like the fact that he has a farm in Montana where he chops wood (since I happen to have a farm and chop wood and also think stuff like this while gathering the wood)...

This guy's cool!

I'm gonna have to go back and watch the original Battle Star Galactica.

Enh, I agree with Eugimon. I really don't buy the notion that there's some kind of society-wide attack on manly-men, or that the producers of the new BSG made Starbuck a woman because they didn't want to have a macho guy on the show.

Your earlier assessment was right on, I think: he comes off as whiny. And paranoid. And (as Eugimon said) delusional: the original Starbuck was just a bargain-basement Han Solo with Captain Kirk's libido thrown in. He was not a great character, nor was he portrayed by a great actor.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Gubaba

[mospeadamacrosstech]

wow...small minded, bitter and not just a little misogynistic.

And delusional... him comparing Starbuck to Hamlet? What a joke, and completely missing the point that "Kara Thrace" isn't just his version of Starbuck but as a woman. The scripts and personal stories are different and even though Kara has enough machismo and testosterone to bury Dirk's fancy boy Starbuck, the writer's and Katee Sackhoff managed to never lose sight of the character's femininity and the very real differences between men and women.

That was really well said, and I could not agree more.

[VFTF1]

Enh, I agree with Eugimon. I really don't buy the notion that there's some kind of society-wide attack on manly-men, or that the producers of the new BSG made Starbuck a woman because they didn't want to have a macho guy on the show.

I'm happy to finally have somethng to disagree with you about Gubaba

Anyways - I am unable to comment directly on Benedict's views of the new BSG, since I have only seen one episode, a remember actually liking it for its' dark, brooding and melancholy mood. I have not seen the whole series, so I'm by no means going to say Benedict is right in how he interprets the series.

But - I do think he makes a good point in general with regard to the direction that culture, and film in particular (since that's his topic), has gone in.

Manly characters in film are few and far between AND ironically - even when they do appear...they have to either be super-human or non-human. Case in point: the Terminator in T2 and T3, Optimus Prime (a robot) in Transformers the movie. Harrison Ford's character in Blade Runner (who, it turns out might be an android himself).

Also - I think it would be a mistake to presume on the basis of Benedict's essay that there is only ONE definition of manliness, and that it is always macho and can be summed up by smoking a cigar and hitting on chicks.

If anything - Benedict is the liberal here, I would argue- because he is not afraid to talk about sexuality and the differences between the sexes openly - he does not fear making common sense remarks about men and women that would stir people to thought and debate and that have a grain of truth in them.

Because -remember guys - we're talking about human beings here - not math. There are not equations of formulae that show us what a woman is and what a man is. Men are different amongst themselves as are women. But that doesn't mean that there aren't often certain traits that women have and certain traits that men have.

One good sign of the "society wide attack on manliness" (if you want to call it that, which I don't...) is that people are afraid to talk about these traits - especially MEN are afraid to talk about them for fear that they would be accused of either being old fashioned or outright sexist.

But men who can't think about manliness and discuss the subject (and films and movies that have manly characters are one way to discuss the subject), are at a distadvantage because they can't fully understand themselves. Same with women who aren't allowed to consider their femininity.

Now, I have nothing against mixing things up with regard to sexuality and gender roles in films and novels. But I DO agree with Benedict that the "suits" often seem to adhere to a formulae that is as equally stale, crusty, stereotypical and therefore BORING as the "old fashioned" shows and movies which had a stereotypical strong macho man and women relegated to the role of shouting "aahh!"

Benedict was a theatre actor. He performed as Hamlet. Shakespeare's Hamlet has a very, VERY strong female character - Ophelia (and just to pre-empt cries of "but all she does is whine about love, cry over her dead father and drown like a weak woman - by "strong female character" I do not mean a manly woman - but rather a character who is feminine and strong in her femininity - and unashamedly womanly).

My point is - Benedict has clearly had time to consider manliness and femininity. He takes a very light hearted approach to shows like BSG - he prefers that their heroes be swash buckling cigar smoking rogues rather than over-complicating things. He points out a certain direction that our culture is heading in when the "enemy Cyclons" are no longer lumbering killer robots but instead appear to be femme fatales, or penis snatchers if you will.

Naturally Benedict is voicing a male fear - a fear of loosing a place for manliness in the world - but also loosing a place for femininity, since females suddenly must be strong, fatale, cold and calculating to be interesting or note worthy.

In this sense - Benedict is trying to resuce women (a very manly endeavor) because Benedict is saying - look - you don't like Macho guys? Then WHY are you making all the women in our culture manly? Why is it that women are adopting all of the worst traits of men?

Manliness is often frowned upon for lack of empathy, lack of sensitivity, cold-heartedness, lack of thoughtfulness - so if all of these things are so bad - why are the women in our culture striving to be portrayed in film like men? Why are women ADOPTING these bad traits?

Possibly because they crave the worse trait of manly men: a craving for power which risks becoming tyranical.

And what is it in the universe that serves as a limit on the manly craving for power?

What is it that soothes men's appetites, tempers their egos, and puts their masculinity in the service of something better than themselves?

Why it's a woman's love of course.

The delicate, feminine, soft, soothing and carressing whispers of a woman are more powerful than a thousand thundering obnoxious bellows emanating from the mouths of manly women.

In fact - the more women become like men, the more they loose their one true power over men - their femininity. This is also why men are pushed into being less manly and more "metrosexual" in the culture - so that they do not threaten and intimidate pseudo-manly women with their true manliness.

Now before people tear their hair out - please remember that I'm speaking in extreme generalizations here - but so are we all - aren't we? Because again - the subject is not math - it's human beings, and human beings cannot be discussed with the precision of scientists - at least not human psychologiy, and not the relations between biology and character either.

I think people who look down on Benedict's essay are taking it the wrong way.

In fact - I would even say that a show which mixes up gender roles INVITES the kind of discussion Benedict is having.

Pete

[Mog]

Seriously VFTF1, you should watch the latest BSG series.

Anyone who's really watched the show can tell you that a lot of Benedict's opinions about it are completely off-base. That's what's frustrating for a lot of us fans of new BSG: it's that Benedict is being critical of a series that TOTALLY GOES AGAINST how "Harvard Business School Technocrats run Hollywood."

Benedict laments that "what Technocrats know is what must be removed from all business is Risk," and yet new BSG took some massive-ass risks (I'd name 'em, but Gubaba's still going through the series right now.).

It's not the content of Benedict's message that we look down upon but rather what he chose as a target (the new BSG series) that a lot of us don't agree with.

And the lack of MANLY characters in new BSG?! I got three words for you: Colonel FRAKKEN Tigh.

[eugimon]

I agree with Mog. You should really watch the show before going off on some little tear on what BSG is or isn't doing in the gender war because honestly, Dirk interpretation and portrayal of the show is just flat out wrong.

If you want to have a discussion on gender roles, this really isn't the place for that. But Dirk's article wasn't about that either, it was misogyny fueled rantings of a small minded man who's seen his sun set into obscurity and he's lashing out in a rather pathetic way to try and crawl back into relevancy.

[VFTF1]

Well - lik I said - I can make no statement about the new BSG (or even the old one for that matter) - but I just like the tone of the article.

Of course, if Benedict is actually flat out wrong about his interpretation and completely fails to see some elements of the plot that other people view as obvious - then that's another matter.

You might also be right about him being bitter about the sun setting on his career etc etc - but I still like guys like that. I take his complaining with a grain of salt.

I'm trying to imagine if someone wrote something like this about a series I love then maybe I'd feel the same as you guys- so ok - point taken.

I guess I kind of read this article in the same vein as that one recent article ripping into ROTF (another movie I haven't seen) - and I loved how he ripped into the movie even though I didn't see it and might not agree with him if I had seen it.

In other words - abstracting Bennedict's article from the BSG series - I just find it both entertaining, sentimental and I like some of the things he has to say and his general approach.

But to repeat - I can't and don't have an opinion on BSG - new or old - because I haven't seen any of them.

If anything - think of it this way:

Bennedict's passionate rant might just get me to move my lazy butt to watch both of them

Pete

[Keith]

I only have one thing to say on this issue.

SSSSSSSS

[Gubaba]

Seriously VFTF1, you should watch the latest BSG series.

Anyone who's really watched the show can tell you that a lot of Benedict's opinions about it are completely off-base. That's what's frustrating for a lot of us fans of new BSG: it's that Benedict is being critical of a series that TOTALLY GOES AGAINST how "Harvard Business School Technocrats run Hollywood."

Benedict laments that "what Technocrats know is what must be removed from all business is Risk," and yet new BSG took some massive-ass risks (I'd name 'em, but Gubaba's still going through the series right now.).

It's not the content of Benedict's message that we look down upon but rather what he chose as a target (the new BSG series) that a lot of us don't agree with.

And the lack of MANLY characters in new BSG?! I got three words for you: Colonel FRAKKEN Tigh.

Thank you for the consideration!

And yeah...most of what bugs me about Benedict's essay is A) that he suggests that the only reason anybody likes the new series is because other people told them to like it, and, more importantly, B) that bright, primary-colored storytelling where there are clear good guys and clear bad guys is a lost, lamented art form, and anything more...ambiguous, shall we say, is just a sad product of groupthink and the reprehensible times in which we live.

I reject both notions wholeheartedly.

But, to be fair to him, instead of renting Season 2 yesterday afternoon, I rented the '78 series boxset again, and I'll pick up where I left off (the "Battlestar Pegasus" episodes...LLOYD BRIDGES!) and watch as much of it as I can before I have to stop...because it's a poorly written, poorly acted, poorly imagined show.

[Keith]

Thank you for the consideration!

And yeah...most of what bugs me about Benedict's essay is A) that he suggests that the only reason anybody likes the new series is because other people told them to like it, and, more importantly, B) that bright, primary-colored storytelling where there are clear good guys and clear bad guys is a lost, lamented art form, and anything more...ambiguous, shall we say, is just a sad product of groupthink and the reprehensible times in which we live.

I reject both notions wholeheartedly.

But, to be fair to him, instead of renting Season 2 yesterday afternoon, I rented the '78 series boxset again, and I'll pick up where I left off (the "Battlestar Pegasus" episodes...LLOYD BRIDGES!) and watch as much of it as I can before I have to stop...because it's a poorly written, poorly acted, poorly imagined show.

Benedict also seems to have all but forgotten "Galactica 1980."

[eugimon]

Just him thinking he was ever the paradigm of manliness is a joke. He was always the prissy boy sidekick to the actual machismo fueled lead.

[Keith]

Was that written before or after Richard Hatch appeared in the new show?

[Skullsixx]

I really envy those who are still trying to catch up with the series. I watched it week to week and it felt like torture waiting in between seasons! Now you get to see them at your leisure! I'll say this to ya... your in for one helluva ride!!!

[Dynaman]

I really envy those who are still trying to catch up with the series. I watched it week to week and it felt like torture waiting in between seasons! Now you get to see them at your leisure! I'll say this to ya... your in for one helluva ride!!!

Also - the show had it's ups and downs, at one point I personally thought it got really bland, but then it got better then ever (or at least as good). Final episode - I thought it was a little silly, but I still liked it too.

[Gubaba]

I really envy those who are still trying to catch up with the series. I watched it week to week and it felt like torture waiting in between seasons! Now you get to see them at your leisure! I'll say this to ya... your in for one helluva ride!!!

I kind of wish I had watched it week-by-week...I'm kind of a masochist in that I often enjoy the wait time between episodes or seasons.

Luckily, like I said, I almost rented Season 2 yesterday...but the cute lesbian will be bringing me her DVDs this weekend, and she will only dole out the series a season at a time...so yes, I will have some waiting thrown in.

[-Snowblind-]

Was that written before or after Richard Hatch appeared in the new show?

After. Funny thing is that when the new BSG was proposed, Hatch was against it and Benedict was for it (there's even a special feature on the first season or mini series DVDs with him and Katee Sackhoff talking about Starbuck together). By the end of the series their positions had reversed.

[-Snowblind-]

I kind of wish I had watched it week-by-week...I'm kind of a masochist in that I often enjoy the wait time between episodes or seasons.

Luckily, like I said, I almost rented Season 2 yesterday...but the cute lesbian will be bringing me her DVDs this weekend, and she will only dole out the series a season at a time...so yes, I will have some waiting thrown in.

Season 3 (when you get there) starts out (okay, second episode, I think) with one of the best battle scenes in sci-fi television history (okay, maybe I exaggerate). The rest of the season is... different... from the preceding seasons, though. Will be interesting to see what a new watcher makes of it.

[Gubaba]

Season 3 (when you get there) starts out (okay, second episode, I think) with one of the best battle scenes in sci-fi television history (okay, maybe I exaggerate). The rest of the season is... different... from the preceding seasons, though. Will be interesting to see what a new watcher makes of it.

It'll probably be a few weeks before I get there, but I'll definitely post my thoughts...

And now back to...LORNE GREENE! RICHARD HATCH! DIRK BENEDICT! THE ANNOYING KID FROM THE NEVERENDING STORY AND HIS EVEN MORE ANNOYING ROBOT DOG! THE BLACK DUDE! THE FAT GUY WITH THE MUSTACHE! THE HOT BRUNETTE AND THE AVERAGE-LOOKING BLONDE! With special guest stars LLOYD BRIDGES and ANNE LOCKHEART!

(God, I hate this show. I'm just watching it out of a perverse sense of completism.)

[eugimon]

season 3 and 4 make a lot more sense once you just accept that BSG is structurally a retelling of the Exodus story