Battlestar Galactica Discussion III

[holytoledo69]

May I ask where you got them from? I've looking at different stores but they all seem to have the Guardian version. Haven't seen a warrior version except for CG but not the actual toy.

Chris

ToyRocket.com

[Wes]

That movie never happened!!!!!!

At least it isn't The Source

the only "artistic" one is/was Gaeta

[SilentCrossHairs]

BTW, does the idea of taking aliens, erasing their memories, and dumping them into a society remind anyone of Highlander 2?

How about erasing cyborg memories ala Ghost in the shell?

[Roger]

How about erasing cyborg memories ala Ghost in the shell?

No, not so much.

[Roger]

I just rewatched the episode. Let's see if I've got it all straight:

2,000 years ago, on Kobol, there are 12 tribes of humans and a 13th tribe of humanoid Cylons (who may or may not have been created by the humans.) There's some kind of schism and everybody splits town. The 12 tribes find habitable worlds and form the 12 Colonies (Caprica, Tauron, Virgon, etc.).

The 13th heads back towards Earth. Before reaching it, along the way they leave a contaminated satellite and make a brief stop on the Algae Planet, where they build the Temple of Hopes and pray to their One True God. Along the way they also ditch their resurrection technology when they discover that they can procreate on their own.

Soon after settling Earth, they create mechanical Centurions to serve as workers, but eventually they rebel, resulting in war. Five scientists (Saul, Ellen, Tory, Sam, and Galen) see the writing on the wall, or are warned via divine powers, and re-create the resurrection machinery on a ship orbiting Earth.

The war between the humanoid Cylons and Centurions goes nuclear and everyone dies. The five scientists are reborn on their ship, and embark on a journey at sublight speeds to the 12 colonies, to warn them against the dangers of creating mechanical Centurions to serve as slaves.

Too late. By the time their slowboat reaches the 12 colonies, the humans there are already at war with their own mechanical Centurions. The Centurions are already trying to become humanoid to emulate the living God they believe in, but aside from creating the Hybrids they are unsuccessful.

The scientists strike a deal with the Centurions: we'll make you humanoid like us, to emulate the living God that you worship, as long as you stop waging war against the humans. The Centurions agree, and the first Cylon-Human war ends.

The first new-generation humanoid Cylon, John (Cavil) is developed by the scientists, as well as the resurrection network. Seven more models are created, for a total of eight. John becomes jealous of Model #7, named Daniel, so he destroys all copies of it and the means to make more copies.

John eventually rebels against his creators. He tricks the five scientists into a situation where he suffocates them, and then makes them resurrect in new bodies with altered memories. One by one, over the course of decades, he inserts them into human society, thinking that life in the 12 Colonies will teach them that humans are worth exterminating.

The first one is Saul, who has a military record fabricated for him and ends up serving on a freighter with Bill Adama, 20 years after the First Cylon-Human war. 20 years after that, when the Second Cylon-Human war begins, and John finds out that all five of the brainwashed scientists have survived it, he inserts copies of himself into different factions of the survivors to make their lives even more hellish.

To go along with this, he alters the memories of the other six humanoid Cylons and the Centurions so that they can't remember or recognize the scientists, but he leaves in the knowledge that they exist, and that they shouldn't be thought about or researched.

On top of all this, there is apparently a God out there, whispering things in the ears of the Hybrids, providing divine revelations to D'Anna, Roslyn, Baltar, and Caprica Six, providing signposts for people to get to and from Earth, Kobol, and the Twelve Colonies, broadcasting All Along The Watchtower, rigging fleet-wide power failures, and whatever supernatural apparatus duplicated Starbuck and her Viper, right down to the dog tags and wedding ring.

What a mess.

[chowyunskinny]

Seven more models are created, for a total of eight. John becomes jealous of Model #7, named Daniel, so he destroys all copies of it and the means to make more copies.

What a mess.

Thanks for compiling that Roger. That's what I thought I understood about Daniel, so I don't get why people think it's Baltar. It also sounded to me like that model was eliminated by John while it was still in a childhood stage of maturity.

And about it being a mess, it's less convoluted than I thought it would be considering the writers probably had to change the overall writing goal when they found out the show had to wrap by the end of Season 4.

Edited February 16, 2009 by chowyunskinny

[Roger]

I don't get why people think it's Baltar.

My belief that it's Baltar comes from the parallels between his character and the Biblical figure, and the hope that Moore wouldn't have the actors waste so much oxygen on something that didn't go anywhere. I've been wrong before, though (see Grand Unified Cylon Theory).

In the podcast commentary, Moore admits that the only reason there was any dialogue at all about a Type 7 is because early on in the series they said Boomer was a Type 8, and they felt that they had to explain that gap in the numbering.

If the discussion about Daniel was more than just a minor patch, they'll find a way to turn it into a full-fledged plot point, and given Moore's love for Biblical references I think it will turn out to be Baltar.

[Ghadrack]

Then Baltar can be the one to end John and will end up being the saviour of humanity in the end

~edit! Better yet he can be physically controlled by the vision of 6 and be the hand of God / Son of God being struck down while landing the killing blow on John/Cavill

Edited February 16, 2009 by Ghadrack

[RicePiece]

My belief that it's Baltar comes from the parallels between his character and the Biblical figure, and the hope that Moore wouldn't have the actors waste so much oxygen on something that didn't go anywhere. I've been wrong before, though (see Grand Unified Cylon Theory).

In the podcast commentary, Moore admits that the only reason there was any dialogue at all about a Type 7 is because early on in the series they said Boomer was a Type 8, and they felt that they had to explain that gap in the numbering.

If the discussion about Daniel was more than just a minor patch, they'll find a way to turn it into a full-fledged plot point, and given Moore's love for Biblical references I think it will turn out to be Baltar.

Baltar has to be something special... that said, it's getting late in the game and they better get to explaining things real soon.

[kaiotheforsaken]

I don't think Baltar has to be something special, though for a long time I was certain that he was. His head Six thing is not unique to him (Caprica had it as well). And in their own ways, both have achieved something important within the show without needing additional layers. Also there is nothing Ellen has said(yet) to suggest that any version of Daniel survived John's betrayal. I think Daniel could much more easily fit in as a plot device to help explain Kara, be it that he's her father or has some other connection to her.

Also, while it could have been John's doing, Baltar exhibits none of the traits Ellen pointed out when speaking about Daniel. Though they could fit in with the artist (piano player) that her father was, and could explain part of Kara's affinity for art. Daniel's ties to the Five may also ultimately help connect the images of the Mandala back to Kara as well.

[Letigre]

I don't belive Baltar is anyone special, persay.. but perhaps more of a metaphor of Galatica's humanity and it's sins?

As a character, he has really come around..although he has grown to have areaaly weird attachment to Sixes. There is such a strong attaction, I wonder what "mama" Ellen would have to say about that.

[Wes]

I don't belive Baltar is anyone special, persay.. but perhaps more of a metaphor of Galatica's humanity and it's sins?

As a character, he has really come around..although he has grown to have areaaly weird attachment to Sixes. There is such a strong attaction, I wonder what "mama" Ellen would have to say about that.

Don't see what she could say. What with the way she was acting with her memories erased.

[Roger]

His head Six thing is not unique to him (Caprica had it as well).

Yes, but Caprica Six is a Cylon. Anders, Tory, and the rest, who also had visions appear to them before the war on Earth, were Cylons. Maybe the visions only appear to Cylons. Maybe the One True God only cares about them.

Also there is nothing Ellen has said(yet) to suggest that any version of Daniel survived John's betrayal.

If she did save a copy of Daniel, and knew John hated him so much, she probably wouldn't discuss it in front of John.

Also, while it could have been John's doing, Baltar exhibits none of the traits Ellen pointed out when speaking about Daniel.

Well, none of the Final Five exhibited traits of their former personalities and affinities, did they, with the possible exception of Tyrol. Ellen seems to have been a completely different person in her Earth-based life, warm and analytical. Anders decided to pursue sports instead of science, Tory went into politics, and Tigh went into the military. None of them gravitated towards the pursuit of scientific endeavors as they did in their former lives.

We'll see.

[kaiotheforsaken]

Oddly enough though Ellen still has a strong liking towards alcohol. We really don't know what the F5 were like before the John messed with things. False memories don't really assure you that personality traits didn't surface.

I don't think the argument for Baltar being Daniel is as strong as the argument he was the Final Cylon (the one Ellen turned up being, not this mystery guy). I certainly don't think that IF they explain the head six/head Baltar thing it will be "god only cares about Cylons". I still stand by my statement that big things that have been EXPLAINED in the series stray away from metaphysical things like that, and I don't see it changing now.

Also, since the forming of his little movement, the visions have more or less vanished and Caprica doesn't see Baltar either, hasn't since the end of season 2 really. You'd think Gaius spreading God's word and Caprica being pregnant would be important enough to "warrant God's attention" if it were the case. Especially since he's basically stopped talking to everyone.

I really believe that at this point Baltar is off the hook. Kara finding her dead self is much more prominent and I see Daniel easily helping fill in the mystery. If she's connected to Daniel and the Cylons it's makes way more sense then just having Baltar be a Cylon now. I like theories, but there are only five episodes left, can you peg Baltar as a Cylon and still introduce an answer the the Kara equation? To me Daniel = Baltar doesn't have much point, it's like the Galactica being the dying leader. At this point, how does that advance the story in an important way? What would we gain from Galactica being a metaphorical leader? What significance is left making Baltar a Cylon?

[Einherjar]

They're really making use of the last few episodes to end the series with style.

Dr. Gerald (John Hodgman) was really chipper about working on Ander's head. The first time he showed up all I could think about was the PC & Mac commercials. Not only does PC (also played by Hodgman) hate Macs, but also Cylons!

[Alpha OTS]

Also, since the forming of his little movement, the visions have more or less vanished and Caprica doesn't see Baltar either, hasn't since the end of season 2 really. You'd think Gaius spreading God's word and Caprica being pregnant would be important enough to "warrant God's attention" if it were the case. Especially since he's basically stopped talking to everyone.

I've been thinking about that and what changed that we don't see the pookas so much any more. My current theory is that Baltar and Six have been in close proximity to each other for quite some time. I'm wondering if the download "code" corrected itself. This might explain why Baltar saw a pooka Baltar once instead of Six, because the auto-correction was in the midst of working.

I've always thought they were in each others heads because Six's download was corrupted by the atomic blast near Baltar, which ended up in swapping "code" with Baltar's brain.

The Cylons also seem to have visions pretty frequently. I'm wondering if this is just masked over "code" in their heads trying to come to the forefront. Heck, they kind of confirmed that with Deana seeing the faces of the Five.

[kaiotheforsaken]

Well visions could be like inherited memory or something too. Organic memory transfer existed on Kobol. Perhaps this technology wasn't limited to Cylons alone? It was a lost science until the Five re-invented it. Whose to say that thousands of years ago humans didn't have that as well. Visions also aren't exclusive to Cylons. Laura has had them many a time, and shared them with Six and Athena. We all came from the same place, if the ability to manipulate the mind (and likely genetic code as well) this way was common place on Kobol, it's possible that people were implanted with memories that could be passed down from generation to generation to try and help prevent a cycle of violence. That's stretching a bit, but it isn't so far outside the scope of the science presented in the show that it isn't semi possible.

Contrary to what it may seem, I like the religious undertones of the show. I think it's interesting. That being said, I think Moore and company tend to stray away from answering questions purely based on metaphysical or religious grounds. Mainly because it forces you to accept things. I think religion and faith and all that are great ways to make the people seem more human and give us ways to relate to them and what's going on in the show. I don't believe however, that the show will end with god poofing onto the Galactica and handing out judgement or something.

Edited February 18, 2009 by kaiotheforsaken

[Roger]

I don't believe however, that the show will end with god poofing onto the Galactica and handing out judgement or something.

I like to think that some deity will appear at the end and let them know that it's been putting them through hell because it despises them. And then eat them.

[Duke Togo]

Daniel was an artist, Kara is an artist...

[dreamweaver13]

I just rewatched the episode. Let's see if I've got it all straight:

2,000 years ago, on Kobol, there are 12 tribes of humans and a 13th tribe of humanoid Cylons (who may or may not have been created by the humans.) There's some kind of schism and everybody splits town. The 12 tribes find habitable worlds and form the 12 Colonies (Caprica, Tauron, Virgon, etc.).

The 13th heads back towards Earth. Before reaching it, along the way they leave a contaminated satellite and make a brief stop on the Algae Planet, where they build the Temple of Hopes and pray to their One True God. Along the way they also ditch their resurrection technology when they discover that they can procreate on their own.

Soon after settling Earth, they create mechanical Centurions to serve as workers, but eventually they rebel, resulting in war. Five scientists (Saul, Ellen, Tory, Sam, and Galen) see the writing on the wall, or are warned via divine powers, and re-create the resurrection machinery on a ship orbiting Earth.

The war between the humanoid Cylons and Centurions goes nuclear and everyone dies. The five scientists are reborn on their ship, and embark on a journey at sublight speeds to the 12 colonies, to warn them against the dangers of creating mechanical Centurions to serve as slaves.

Too late. By the time their slowboat reaches the 12 colonies, the humans there are already at war with their own mechanical Centurions. The Centurions are already trying to become humanoid to emulate the living God they believe in, but aside from creating the Hybrids they are unsuccessful.

The scientists strike a deal with the Centurions: we'll make you humanoid like us, to emulate the living God that you worship, as long as you stop waging war against the humans. The Centurions agree, and the first Cylon-Human war ends.

The first new-generation humanoid Cylon, John (Cavil) is developed by the scientists, as well as the resurrection network. Seven more models are created, for a total of eight. John becomes jealous of Model #7, named Daniel, so he destroys all copies of it and the means to make more copies.

John eventually rebels against his creators. He tricks the five scientists into a situation where he suffocates them, and then makes them resurrect in new bodies with altered memories. One by one, over the course of decades, he inserts them into human society, thinking that life in the 12 Colonies will teach them that humans are worth exterminating.

The first one is Saul, who has a military record fabricated for him and ends up serving on a freighter with Bill Adama, 20 years after the First Cylon-Human war. 20 years after that, when the Second Cylon-Human war begins, and John finds out that all five of the brainwashed scientists have survived it, he inserts copies of himself into different factions of the survivors to make their lives even more hellish.

To go along with this, he alters the memories of the other six humanoid Cylons and the Centurions so that they can't remember or recognize the scientists, but he leaves in the knowledge that they exist, and that they shouldn't be thought about or researched.

On top of all this, there is apparently a God out there, whispering things in the ears of the Hybrids, providing divine revelations to D'Anna, Roslyn, Baltar, and Caprica Six, providing signposts for people to get to and from Earth, Kobol, and the Twelve Colonies, broadcasting All Along The Watchtower, rigging fleet-wide power failures, and whatever supernatural apparatus duplicated Starbuck and her Viper, right down to the dog tags and wedding ring.

What a mess.

Good summary. pretty much what i got from watching ep 15. but i don't think it was a mess. IMHO, it was a fine way to tie everything up. could have been much much messier, but i think they managed to fit many pieces of the puzzle well enough to make it sound believable and give viewers that "so THAT'S how it all happened!" moment.

also, it's amazing how much they fit all those infos and revelations into one single episode without sounding like a convoluted storyboard discussion. and all without flashbacks. kudos to the writers. this episode really took me for a fine ride and i enjoyed every minute of it.

[dreamweaver13]

I really believe that at this point Baltar is off the hook. Kara finding her dead self is much more prominent and I see Daniel easily helping fill in the mystery. If she's connected to Daniel and the Cylons it's makes way more sense then just having Baltar be a Cylon now. I like theories, but there are only five episodes left, can you peg Baltar as a Cylon and still introduce an answer the the Kara equation? To me Daniel = Baltar doesn't have much point, it's like the Galactica being the dying leader. At this point, how does that advance the story in an important way? What would we gain from Galactica being a metaphorical leader? What significance is left making Baltar a Cylon?

I agree. now that Ellen is officially the 5th cylon, all we're left with is the mystery of Kara.

well, she has to be something! and so conveniently, they put in this new cylon Daniel. Sure they said that the Daniel line was completely destroyed. but if that's all there is, then what's the point in even mentioning it? so, with 6 eps remaining, and the kara question of being DEAD (and also of being prophesied to bring death to everyone) is still left unanswered, all of a sudden we discover there's a missing cylon.

I think Daniel will play a role in this somewhere along the line. And as for Kara, either she's related to Daniel in some way, or she's related to the one true god that's been playing the strings. Either way, she has to be something.

[uminoken]

Spoiler'ed just to be safe...

Kara's father was a piano player (Phillip Glass in point of fact) and with Bear hinting strongly at big musical moments coming up along with his additional hints at more piano-based scoring leads me to think her dad definitely figures into Kara's situation.

As to the Head People, what if it's God working behind the scenes? A version of angels warning of things to come. Solves Baltar not being a Cylon (just a human prophet) as well as validating Six's whole angel-sent-by-God speeches.

[edwin3060]

They're really making use of the last few episodes to end the series with style.

Dr. Gerald (John Hodgman) was really chipper about working on Ander's head. The first time he showed up all I could think about was the PC & Mac commercials. Not only does PC (also played by Hodgman) hate Macs, but also Cylons!

Don't you know that Mac=Cylon? The final episode will reveal Steve Jobs as a Cylon

[RicePiece]

OK, i want to run a theory by you guys regarding the FF's timeline: The Tigh we met at the beginning of the series is dead and has been replaced with a skin job created by Cavil in the original Tigh's image.

The timeline below uses X as the start of the series. FF_Tigh is the person known as Tigh that lived on earth 2000 yrs ago, Tigh is the person we meet in Season 1.

We know the following today:

X - 2000: FF_Tigh leaves Earth, heading to Colonies.

X - 40: FF arrive at Colonies and end First Cylon war by offering to create skinjobs for the Centurions. Tigh fought in this war with Adama.

X - 30: Cavil is created

X - 20: Cavil kills the FF including FF_Tigh and boxes them

X: Colonies are Nuked

X + 2: New Caprica. Tigh is captured and tortured.

Here's where my theory kicks in

X+2: Tigh is not just captured and tortured, but killed. FF_Tigh is resurrected in a body that looks like Tigh, with Tigh's memories overwriting FF_Tigh's own. [Cavil has mentioned that he can read memories directly from the brain and now FF_Tigh can know all the horror of the war that Tigh went through, therefore learning the lesson Cavil wanted to teach the FF].

X+2: The other FF were all on NC as well, therefore Cavil could have done the same thing with them at some point (Tory, Anders, Tyrol, Ellen)

Somehow I think that the head people have to do with the transfer of one person's memories into another's, two sets of memories, one brain. I don't know how this part fits in yet, but the FF timeline can now be reconciled.

[Roger]

In the episode it was clearly stated by Anders that Tigh was inserted into Colonial society after the first Cylon-Human war.

I don't see what question you're trying to answer with this theory.

[RicePiece]

In the episode it was clearly stated by Anders that Tigh was inserted into Colonial society after the first Cylon-Human war.

I don't see what question you're trying to answer with this theory.

This explains how Adama knew Tigh during the first cylon war and how Tigh recalls fighting in the first cylon war.

[Roger]

This explains how Adama knew Tigh during the first cylon war and how Tigh recalls fighting in the first cylon war.

Adama never knew Tigh during the first Human-Cylon war. They met for the first time as civilians, on a freighter 20 years after the war. This was revealed in flashback in Season 2.

Like everything else in his head, Tigh's memories of the war are a fabrication, as are his military records from that time period.

[RicePiece]

Adama never knew Tigh during the first Human-Cylon war. They met for the first time as civilians, on a freighter 20 years after the war. This was revealed in flashback in Season 2.

Like everything else in his head, Tigh's memories of the war are a fabrication, as are his military records from that time period.

I know Tigh has talked about fighting in the first war, and I thought it was along side Adama. Are you sure that neither happened?

[Roger]

Don't believe me, watch the shows yourself.

[Dobber]

Roger is correct, he and Adama met after the war. Since the colonies were probably in a state of chaos, it would probably be fairly simple to create Tigh's backstory and service record. Adama was the one who pulled strings to get Tigh "reinstated" into the Colonial fleet.

Chris

[RicePiece]

Roger is correct, he and Adama met after the war. Since the colonies were probably in a state of chaos, it would probably be fairly simple to create Tigh's backstory and service record. Adama was the one who pulled strings to get Tigh "reinstated" into the Colonial fleet.

Chris

damn it ... i spent all that time at work this morning trying to figure out how Tigh and Adama had been buddies for so long...

I'll go back to my corner now...

[Wes]

I like to think that some deity will appear at the end and let them know that it's been putting them through hell because it despises them. And then eat them.

And God should be played by Billy Crystal. Dunno why but it just poped in my head and it's amused me ever since.

Organic memory transfer existed on Kobol. Perhaps this technology wasn't limited to Cylons alone?

I was thinking that too, with the premise behind Caprica, it seems like they were trying the same thing with humans. Which begs the question, how are Cylons different than humans? Anders sure seemed to have a human brain. And yes you never see wires. Eights can plug into electronics but you don't see the Final Five doing it. I'm thinking maybe they were genetically engineered to be servants as opposed to machine-built, with enhancements but couldn't reproduce. Of course they didn't like it, war, yada yada, but they left humans on decent terms and went the other way.

[miles316]

And God should be played by Billy Crystal. Dunno why but it just poped in my head and it's amused me ever since.

I was thinking that too, with the premise behind Caprica, it seems like they were trying the same thing with humans. Which begs the question, how are Cylons different than humans? Anders sure seemed to have a human brain. And yes you never see wires. Eights can plug into electronics but you don't see the Final Five doing it. I'm thinking maybe they were genetically engineered to be servants as opposed to machine-built, with enhancements but couldn't reproduce. Of course they didn't like it, war, yada yada, but they left humans on decent terms and went the other way.

the Cylons of earth were the products of natural reproductions but the eight were artificially created either from scratch or using the Cylons minds from the robots moving them in to the new body's. The skin jobs are human body's organic grown in a lab the brains are composed of artificial neurons that reconfigure them selves to the Cylon personality and memory which are susceptible to certain forms of radiation. They are not robots. The colonial Cylons are artificial constructs but the FF are the products of natural reproduction and are not able to interface with computers. The human body is composed of a network of wires but they are organic not metallic these wires form a network that is the nervous system that connects the body to the brain allowing use to feel when things are hot, cold, hard and soft. That is why their is no USB plugs in their hands they just put their hands in a conductive fluid connecting them to their technology no butting or joysticks.

[kaiotheforsaken]

The Cylons of Earth at least to start were products of artificial creation, though they did evolve (or perhaps engineer) the ability to biologically reproduce. Speaking on the differences between the 7 and 5 is fairly tough to do. We know that the 7 are more vulnerable to certain kinds of radiation, but beyond that, we don't know many biological differences. None of the 5 have tried interfacing with the Baseships systems as far as I remember, it's entirely possible they are able to.

What we do know is, both the 5 and the 7 are genetically different from humans. They both (now) have the ability to reproduce, as evidence by Athena and Helo's child as well as Caprica and Saul's. They also both have the ability to download 4/5 have done it twice (as far as we can tell) once as a result of the nukes on Earth, and once as a result of John's betrayal. Ellen got a 3rd time from her death on New Caprica. So I'm not sure we can speak so factually on the differences between the two, when A) they haven't been explained fully and B) there are plenty of similarities to go around.

[big F]

I think its all gonna boil down to...

Cylons = Humans and Humans = Cylons.