Aircraft Vs Thread 5

[Nied]

Are you talking about the A-12 navy stealth carrier plane?

The F-14. Cheney was hell bent on making sure the F-14D program was canceled, and went as far as ordering the factory jigs destroyed so that no more could be produced. It's the aircraft manufacturing equivalent of salting the earth so that nothing grows.

[knoted]

Hear, hear, wish we could get rid of all this stealth nonsense and get back to building planes that actually look good. Which is off course the most important thing!

It's all a matter of personal taste.

Personally, I think the angular stealth aesthetics is the BEST that ever happened to airplane designs. I really like all those triangular & hexagonal visual aspects which connects my favourites : the F117, YF23 and the F22.

Away with the old.

[Ghost Train]

That is if Sukhoi can stay in business too. I don't recall Russian planes being hot sellers lately. Futures sales are unknown and who knows how many Russia itself can afford to buy.

Isn't Sukhoi part of UAC - which is supposed to be owned by the Russian government?

[anime52k8]

I will LMAO if sometime in the future, the US ended up having to buy or licence produce these from the Russians.

Could happen if the F-22 production line is closed, jigs destroyed, and a credible A2A threat emerged to challenge the US.

Graham

Oh wow... you funny

We'll see 100 foot tall fighting robots long before that ever happens.

Edited February 3, 2010 by anime52k8

[505thAirborne]

The F-14. Cheney was hell bent on making sure the F-14D program was canceled, and went as far as ordering the factory jigs destroyed so that no more could be produced. It's the aircraft manufacturing equivalent of salting the earth so that nothing grows.

Thats the best way to say it. A Plane with much more potential in it, merely salted into nothing, or in this case Moth balls.

[electric indigo]

That is if Sukhoi can stay in business too. I don't recall Russian planes being hot sellers lately. Futures sales are unknown and who knows how many Russia itself can afford to buy.

Well Russia's military export business in 2009 had a volume of 7.4 billion USD. About half of that were "aviation technologies" (not "air defence", i.e. misiles), and they currently try to push the MIG-35 for India's air force. Lybia has ordered a bunch of SU-35s, and there's a chance that the UAE wil follow.

By 2020, we will see NATO T-50 in Turkey

[Vifam7]

Well Russia's military export business in 2009 had a volume of 7.4 billion USD. About half of that were "aviation technologies" (not "air defence", i.e. misiles), and they currently try to push the MIG-35 for India's air force. Lybia has ordered a bunch of SU-35s, and there's a chance that the UAE wil follow.

By 2020, we will see NATO T-50 in Turkey

Probably not. Turkey signed on to the F-35 program.

It'll be interesting to see who wins India's MRCA contract. The Eurofighter Typhoon is supposedly in the lead.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Vifam7

[505thAirborne]

Theres an interesting article in the New York Times and Yahoo about the F-35, hitting some big snags.

[Nied]

Probably not. Turkey signed on to the F-35 program.

It'll be interesting to see who wins India's MRCA contract. The Eurofighter Typhoon is supposedly in the lead.

Yeah, if I had to guess it'll be either the Typhoon or the Super Hornet that win the MRCA, because both bring a great engine they can share with the LCA. On a political level the Super Hornet might even have an advantage since it strengthens relations with the US.

[Shadow]

Theres an interesting article in the New York Times and Yahoo about the F-35, hitting some big snags.

Interesting read. I'll put the link up.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting...-back-on-course

Edited February 4, 2010 by Shadow

[kalvasflam]

Interesting read. I'll put the link up.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting...-back-on-course

Too bad there isn't any real hope of opening up the F-22 line again. Given that plane at least isn't having these developmental teething problems.

One could hope though. I figure another 187 (what a weird #) F-22 would be nice.

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah, the F-22 has the ultimate argument of "it's in service, it works, it rocks". The F-35 is still "we hope".

[vermillion01]

Not sure if this has been posted yet (didn't see it) -

LOL AIRLINES

The captain’s window is marked with the big cheese (”captain, my captain!”), the co-pilot’s window with co-captain (the other pilot on the PA system) and the jump seat is for wannabe pilots.

In addition, the following descriptions of plane parts can be found:

* galley (cuppa anyone?)

* avionics (fancy navigation stuff)

* windows (best view in the world)

* wing #1 and #2

* engine #1 and #2 (26 000 pounds of thrust)

* emergency exit = throne zone (more leg room baby!)

* seats (better than taxi seats)

* some windows = kulula fans (the coolest peeps in the world)

* black box (which is actually orange)

* landing gear (comes standard with supa-fly mags)

* back door (no bribery/corruption here)

* tail (featuring an awesome logo)

* loo (or mile-high club initiation chamber)

* rudder (the steering thingy)

* stabiliser (the other steering thingy)

* a.p.u. (extra power when you need it most)

* galley (food, food, food, food…)

* boot space

* ZS-ZWP (OK-PIK) = secret agent code (aka plane’s registration)

* overhead cabins (VIP seating for your hand luggage)

* fuel tanks (the go-go juice)

* cargo door

* aircon ducts (not that kulula needs it… they’re already cool)

* front door (our door is always open … unless we’re at 41 000 feet)

* cockpit window = sun roof

* nose cone (radar, antenna, and a really big dish inside)

[Shadow]

Too bad there isn't any real hope of opening up the F-22 line again. Given that plane at least isn't having these developmental teething problems.

One could hope though. I figure another 187 (what a weird #) F-22 would be nice.

It's all politics, as usual. Sometime down the road, there will probably be a need seen and they'll open the production line back up again. I think the original 240 craft was a good number though.

I was more recently annoyed when I heard the Orion was being canned but that's off-topic.

[David Hingtgen]

240 is a nice number, that's 20 squadrons. Or more like 18 squadrons (3 whole wings), with enough reserves for attrition.

[edwin3060]

Eh, I assume you might not have too much contact with Far Eastern society Chinese... correct me if I'm wrong. There's two part to this. The first is propaganda -- remember that much of the official PRC releases are propaganda meant for both external and internal consumption. The line about "it's our own work!" is meant to be fed to the internal public for morale purposes.

The second part is about "saving face" (but is tied to the first). If the PRC government admits to copying a design, traditional Chinese views have a tendency to see it as "losing face". Doesn't quite work out in a traditionally minded Chinese society. Individually they may all be willing to admit and credit as you said, but collectively they'll all toe the party line to avoid making the whole country "lose face".

And you would be wrong in your assumption. I'm chinese myself, and I think that it is an absolute disgrace that they have to stoop to such a level-- a greater loss of face; than if we came out and said that we needed help and we got it. A chinese proverb goes: paper cannot contain fire. False pride is dangerous.

[Ghost Train]

Not sure if this has been posted yet (didn't see it) -

LOL AIRLINES

The captain’s window is marked with the big cheese (”captain, my captain!”), the co-pilot’s window with co-captain (the other pilot on the PA system) and the jump seat is for wannabe pilots.

LOL that's an awesome plane. I totally agree with the "throne zone" designation for the emergency exits.

I spent a good year on a project traveling almost every week, and went from no status to platinum in like 5 months. Given the choice between a first class upgrade and a coach e-exit seat, the latter was more comfortable 8/10 times depending on the plane (unless you were in a hurry to get off - the only real benefit of first class... that and free booze).

[hobbes221]

Here's a few hi-res PAK FA pic that I don't think have been posted here yet.

but variable LERX's are rumored/possible. Need better/more footage though.

Hey David if you look at the first pic it does look as if the LERXs are angled down a little

Edited February 4, 2010 by hobbes221

[David Hingtgen]

Thanks a ton for the pics.

[Uxi]

The PLAAF has had the Su-27 in service since the 1990's. The J-10 I think has already been in service for 5-6 years. And ofcourse the PLAAF is numerically superior to pretty much everyone else in the region.

Don't forget the US 7th Fleet (approximately 350 aircraft and 50-60 ships including a CVN - currently USS George Washington and Carrier Air Wing 5)

I'll be really disappointed if there aren't more F-22's, though. I still dream of the SuperBug getting replaced by a YF-23 based NATF. I wouldn't at all be discouraged if the F-35 is delayed and the USAF gets a few more F-22's (100 would be nice!) to compensate.

[hobbes221]

I was wondering about the vertical stabs being all-moving awhile ago and just came across this pic that looks to confirm it.

Has any other aircraft had both all-moving horizontal and vertical stabilizers? The YF-22 just had one pair but this thing has two sets.

[David Hingtgen]

Most planes with slab tailfins, tend not to HAVE h.stabs. (YF-23, SR-71)

But for all-moving everything---the A-5 Vigilante. Actually invented the concept in jets IIRC. (the A-5 introduced a lot of things actually) (and if you simply look at an A-5, you can see how massive an all-moving fin on that thing is)

[hobbes221]

Forgot about the Vigi, love that big, fast bird. Thanks for info.

Edited February 4, 2010 by hobbes221

[David Hingtgen]

The A-5 may have the most rudder authority of anything ever...

[Vile]

That is if Sukhoi can stay in business too. I don't recall Russian planes being hot sellers lately. Futures sales are unknown and who knows how many Russia itself can afford to buy.

Always a bit of a worry when buying expensive high-tech gear from abroad - what do you do if the company goes bust (or even just stops production) the day after they deliver your birds? Nice bird, though.

[VF-19]

The A-5 may have the most rudder authority of anything ever...

I went and looked at a few pictures of the A-5... Does the whole rudder actually pivot, or is it like most planes where only the "back half" pivots?

[Nied]

Yeah, the F-22 has the ultimate argument of "it's in service, it works, it rocks". The F-35 is still "we hope".

Meh, I soured considerably on the Raptor when I found out how much it would cost to fix it's computer system for sale to Japan. We could get three F-35s for every two Raptors we upgraded with a workable on board computer (and that assuming such a thing could be retrofitted rather than requiring a newly built airframe, which would cost another 2-3 F-35s). I think we're probably better off muddling through with several thousand of F-35s (quantity has a quality all it's own) and replacing the rest of our Eagles, Strike Eagles and Raptors by having the Air Force buy the F/A-XX when it comes on line. Buying more Raptors at this point just gives us more planes with a dead end system that's nigh impossible to integrate new weapons and technology into. Do we really want to be stuck in 2020 with a fighter that has near godly kinematic performance, but that can't even mount a proper HMS or IRST?

[Vifam7]

Maybe something like this will help the F-22.

[Warmaker]

The A-5 may have the most rudder authority of anything ever...

When I attended AE school back in 1993-1994 in NAS Millington, TN, there was an A-5 suspended on a stand out in front of the chow hall. I had never seen the thing before and I was into military aircraft since a kid. All I could say was this: The damn thing is HUGE! Makes the Tomcat look like a kitten with its sheer size.

[Knight26]

Meh, I soured considerably on the Raptor when I found out how much it would cost to fix it's computer system for sale to Japan. We could get three F-35s for every two Raptors we upgraded with a workable on board computer (and that assuming such a thing could be retrofitted rather than requiring a newly built airframe, which would cost another 2-3 F-35s). I think we're probably better off muddling through with several thousand of F-35s (quantity has a quality all it's own) and replacing the rest of our Eagles, Strike Eagles and Raptors by having the Air Force buy the F/A-XX when it comes on line. Buying more Raptors at this point just gives us more planes with a dead end system that's nigh impossible to integrate new weapons and technology into. Do we really want to be stuck in 2020 with a fighter that has near godly kinematic performance, but that can't even mount a proper HMS or IRST?

Don't get me started on the F-22 computer system, some buddies of mine over at that CTF are going crazy over it, and the best hope of getting that computer system's replacement will probably be in a B model aircraft, but that is about impossible now with the production halt. Time will tell though since the tooling still exists and apparently plans have been drawn up using a more open architechture based on the F-35 systems.

[David Hingtgen]

I went and looked at a few pictures of the A-5... Does the whole rudder actually pivot, or is it like most planes where only the "back half" pivots?

The point of the past few posts has been discussing planes where the ENTIRE assembly pivots as a whole (thus the terms "all-moving" and "slab"). There's nothing interesting about a plane with a fixed fin and a movable rudder.

[Knight26]

The point of the past few posts has been discussing planes where the ENTIRE assembly pivots as a whole (thus the terms "all-moving" and "slab"). There's nothing interesting about a plane with a fixed fin and a movable rudder.

And, the only reason they did that was because of how they had to fold the vertical stab in order to make it fit inside the carrier's hanger. The slab/stab actually doesn't move that much because of how large it is, and to see it move more then a few degrees was rare because of how much rudder authority the giant thing gave it.

[Nied]

Don't get me started on the F-22 computer system, some buddies of mine over at that CTF are going crazy over it, and the best hope of getting that computer system's replacement will probably be in a B model aircraft, but that is about impossible now with the production halt. Time will tell though since the tooling still exists and apparently plans have been drawn up using a more open architechture based on the F-35 systems.

Well and that's my point, the costs of building an "exportable" F-22 for Japan were enormous, mainly because it needed to have a new computer system with the DRM for export baked in and more open architecture to accommodate all the changes for the Japanese sea control mission. You have to figure since the F-35's systems have all that built in, the DoD based their estimates on starting with that and integrating it into the Raptor, and even then it was still ridiculously expensive. Like I said above with that in mind we're better off with a JSF swarm to overwhelm any T-50s or J-XXs they might encounter, with a handful of F-22s and later F/A-XXs working as backup.

[David Hingtgen]

It moves enough to see it move in videos, and rather quickly---enough that it's impressive a surface that big can be muscled around that fast. (anyone here actually seen a Viggie fly?)

Anyways---first F-15SE batches will not have canted fins. Boeing said they will be re-introduced later in the program. (though IMHO, that means it's likely we'll never see them in service)

[Bri]

In what way is the F-35 going to be an upgrade over the F-16/F-18s it's going to replace? Most of the discussions I have read seem to focus on it's cost and number built rather then what it can do. The national debate is completely absorbed by compensation orders and noise/emission worries. Any sites or magazine issues that anyone wouldn't mind recommending on it's performance and future roles?