Aircraft Vs Thread 5

[David Hingtgen]

Just FYI, most passenger jets and turboprops can back up under their own power. It's just that fuel's so expensive, it's cheaper to use a tug to push them back. (Plus, severe FOD hazard if you run the engines up at the gate)

You'll see NW DC-9's and AA MD-80's do it all the time though at their hubs.

[Beltane70]

I see C-17's flying overhead all the time where I live, since I'm only about a half-hour away from McGuire AFB. I just never got to see them doing all that they're capable of.

The only disappointing thing about the airshow I went to today was the lack of the F-22. They may have had one yesterday, as the program listed the '22 as a tentative display.

[Apollo Leader]

This is supposed to be the most recent pic of it, being rolled out, though the EXIF data says 1998. (I'm guessing the camera's date is wrong)

That's a picture of YF-23 #2, S/N 87-801. YF-23 #1, S/N 87-800, is the aircraft at the Air Foce Museum. I you take a look through the museum's restoration pictures, there are a few dated from early 2007. The link I provided a few days I believe are suppose to be newer pictures... just looked at them again, they are dated from just a few weeks ago on 5/9/08.

Hopefully it's on display either in the Annex or at the main part of the museum next summer... I'm tentatively planning on making a trip out to Dayton.

As for YF-23 #2, maybe it's back on display at that one museum in southern California?

Edited June 2, 2008 by Apollo Leader

[David Hingtgen]

#2's not back in CA AFAIK.

[David Hingtgen]

B-2 crash footage from 2 different cameras:

it's the second one to takeoff, skip the first half

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1...nnel=1213897972 again, skip the first half

[the white drew carey]

B-2 crash footage from 2 different cameras:

it's the second one to takeoff, skip the first half

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1...nnel=1213897972 again, skip the first half

Worst cameraman ever.

Its amazing that the pilot almost got that back on the ground. I can just imagine the intensity of that moment and when they finally decided to eject.

[the white drew carey]

I'm pretty sure

has been seen before, but damn, is that cutting it close!

[Chewie]

Never mind, it was the air. Saw it in the second video.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Chewie

[Lynx7725]

B-2 crash footage from 2 different cameras:

it's the second one to takeoff, skip the first half

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1...nnel=1213897972 again, skip the first half

The Youtube version looks like its from a base security/ monitoring camera. It was a very close thing for the crew, literally a split second from ejection to crash.

At around the 1:59/ 2:00 mark on the Youtube version, it seems like something flew off the B2?

[Chewie]

The Youtube version looks like its from a base security/ monitoring camera. It was a very close thing for the crew, literally a split second from ejection to crash.

At around the 1:59/ 2:00 mark on the Youtube version, it seems like something flew off the B2?

I asked the same thing then watched the second video. It's air buffeting off the nose area. (Right David?)

[David Hingtgen]

If you're talking about what I think, it's the markings just to the side of the runway. You can see the same thing at 1:56, it's just not lined up with plane at that point.

[Starscream]

That's a picture of YF-23 #2, S/N 87-801. YF-23 #1, S/N 87-800, is the aircraft at the Air Foce Museum. I you take a look through the museum's restoration pictures, there are a few dated from early 2007. The link I provided a few days I believe are suppose to be newer pictures... just looked at them again, they are dated from just a few weeks ago on 5/9/08.

Hopefully it's on display either in the Annex or at the main part of the museum next summer... I'm tentatively planning on making a trip out to Dayton.

As for YF-23 #2, maybe it's back on display at that one museum in southern California?

Which is fairly impressive considering that means the YF-23 Prototypes first rolled out for the ATF Program in 1987.

Ultimately, the F-22A took the contract for various reasons. To include cost of production, cost of maintenance, ease of maintenance, Avionics superiority, etc. It's debatable which of the two fighters was more maneuverable.

I've personally worked around the F-22's. They're fantastic pieces of equipment. Very impressive to say the least. Every time I'm working on Tyndall AFB (twice a year) I get a kick out of seeing them fly by at low altitude hauling ass.

As far as foreign sales for the F-22 go... don't count on it for a LONG time. We'll have the F-22C out at that point pushing Block 30 or 40 packages before we even think about selling the F-22A to a foreign government. The F-22 is replacing the old F-15E Strike Eagle. So expect to see foreign sales of F-15E's overseas to our allies. Hell, Japan just recently brought their F-2 online based on the F-16 platform after we'd been using it for 30 years. I won't knock on the F-2 though. When I was stationed at Misawa AB, Aomori, Japan, I saw the F-2's in person. Fairly impressive (Plus I loved their color scheme).

The F-35 JSF Lightning II is a different story. The F-35 is ultimately a joint/multinational venture. Foreign sales are slated, but in limited numbers (Don't expect to see any nation with NEAR as many as the US has). Furthermore, the JSF will primarily be for the Navy at first from what I can tell. For the Air Force, it's slated as a replacement for the F-16C Block 52/54 which is still a VERY capable aircraft (I've worked around F-16's for almost 9 years now).

Now if we can just get some reactive armor plating, pop some nuclear reactors for the powerplants of our aircraft, and get down variable transforming technology...

[Chewie]

If you're talking about what I think, it's the markings just to the side of the runway. You can see the same thing at 1:56, it's just not lined up with plane at that point.

No no, look at the second video again from 1:30-1:31 there is air building up and reflecting off the nose on either side of the cockpit just as the nose goes to its highest point. That effect on the first video looks like something hit or was ejected from the plane.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Chewie

[David Hingtgen]

I see it clearly in the second video. I'm going to stand by my previous statement--it's more of an optical illusion, where the condensation rolling off the nose meets the markings on the side of the runway.

[Apollo Leader]

I just watched both videoes over multiple times. Obviously something caused the aircaft to violently pitch up like that. The question is after it nearly stalled, was the crash caused by that loss of airspeed or was the crash caused by the issue (whether it be electrical, mechanical, aeronautical) that caused the aircraft to nearly stall to begin with?

Sad to see such an awesome piece of machinery to meet its end like that, but great to see that ejection system worked perfectly for both crew members.

To Starcream, the YF-23 was rolled out in 1990 and both YF-23's flew that year.

[Apollo Leader]

Moisture in B-2's air sensors caused crash. Sad thing was it had been an issue discovered on a previous deployment to Guam, but the fix for dealing with the issue had never been properly relayed to other pilots and ground crews.

[David Hingtgen]

IMHO, it's strange that word didn't get around, even without an official mandate to do so. There's what, a couple dozen B-2 pilots, all based at Whiteman.

[Noyhauser]

As far as foreign sales for the F-22 go... don't count on it for a LONG time. We'll have the F-22C out at that point pushing Block 30 or 40 packages before we even think about selling the F-22A to a foreign government. The F-22 is replacing the old F-15E Strike Eagle. So expect to see foreign sales of F-15E's overseas to our allies. Hell, Japan just recently brought their F-2 online based on the F-16 platform after we'd been using it for 30 years. I won't knock on the F-2 though. When I was stationed at Misawa AB, Aomori, Japan, I saw the F-2's in person. Fairly impressive (Plus I loved their color scheme).

The F-35 JSF Lightning II is a different story. The F-35 is ultimately a joint/multinational venture. Foreign sales are slated, but in limited numbers (Don't expect to see any nation with NEAR as many as the US has). Furthermore, the JSF will primarily be for the Navy at first from what I can tell. For the Air Force, it's slated as a replacement for the F-16C Block 52/54 which is still a VERY capable aircraft (I've worked around F-16's for almost 9 years now).

Now if we can just get some reactive armor plating, pop some nuclear reactors for the powerplants of our aircraft, and get down variable transforming technology...

About the export of the F-22/F-15 I think you're going to be wrong. Its not like the F-22/F-15E are the only fighters on the market; the Eurofighter is a very real alternative for prospective buyers. There are only three realistic buyers for the F-22; Japan, Australia and Israel. Australia has already gotten their no and they will grudgingly buy the F-35, provided there are no more delays.

The largest prize was always Japan. Speaking to colleagues familiar with the situation there, the government of Japan will buy Eurofighters if they don't get F-22 and will not be satisfied with another F-15. The Government of Japan wants a true next generation air superiority fighter not more of the same. The Japanese have already communicated this threat at high levels and will not back down. If the LDP falls next election and Ozawa comes in (and stays around longer than the Hosokawa government), you can almost be assured the Eurofighter will be selected (if the fighter program isn't cancelled.)

Israel was promised fighters by Clinton when he left office, yet the China export controversy probably delayed them getting them by a few years. However just a few days ago, Senate House Committee Chairman signaled his willingness to reverse his position on blocking a sale to Israel. Given the two presidential candidates position, I'd say there is a fair chance the F-22 will be sold to Israel. If thats the case then there is a much greater chance that Japan might be able to procure it as well.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

I don't think it would be out of question to see F-22s in Israel's hands in the next five to seven years (a realistic timeframe for any procurement.)

[Vifam7]

The largest prize was always Japan. Speaking to colleagues familiar with the situation there, the government of Japan will buy Eurofighters if they don't get F-22 and will not be satisfied with another F-15. The Government of Japan wants a true next generation air superiority fighter not more of the same. The Japanese have already communicated this threat at high levels and will not back down. If the LDP falls next election and Ozawa comes in (and stays around longer than the Hosokawa government), you can almost be assured the Eurofighter will be selected (if the fighter program isn't cancelled.)

I can't imagine Japan buying a non-U.S. fighter (no matter what party/administration comes into power). But the prospect of such a thing happening is VERY intriguing. Even if Japan says they don't want another F-15, I wouldn't be surprised if they buckled under US pressure and accepted an upgraded Eagle (I wouldn't mind seeing a F-15J-kai with the ACTIVE technology included ).

However...

Israel was promised fighters by Clinton when he left office, yet the China export controversy probably delayed them getting them by a few years. However just a few days ago, Senate House Committee Chairman signaled his willingness to reverse his position on blocking a sale to Israel. Given the two presidential candidates position, I'd say there is a fair chance the F-22 will be sold to Israel. If thats the case then there is a much greater chance that Japan might be able to procure it as well.

If Israel gets the F-22 then it's likely Japan too will get it. However, I'm not sure if Israel will get the F-22. After the suspicions of Israel helping China develop the Lavi-like J-10 fighter, I'm not sure the U.S would be quick to sell F-22 technology. Japan too recently had some issues with leaks concerning classified AEGIS radar technology.

[Noyhauser]

I can't imagine Japan buying a non-U.S. fighter (no matter what party/administration comes into power). But the prospect of such a thing happening is VERY intriguing. Even if Japan says they don't want another F-15, I wouldn't be surprised if they buckled under US pressure and accepted an upgraded Eagle (I wouldn't mind seeing a F-15J-kai with the ACTIVE technology included ).

However...

If Israel gets the F-22 then it's likely Japan too will get it. However, I'm not sure if Israel will get the F-22. After the suspicions of Israel helping China develop the Lavi-like J-10 fighter, I'm not sure the U.S would be quick to sell F-22 technology. Japan too recently had some issues with leaks concerning classified AEGIS radar technology.

First off, I can tell you that the Japanese are serious. They see the refusal of the US to provide the F-22 as a slap in the face of a loyal ally, and will dig their heels in this.

Furthermore, I think you underestimate some of the shifts in Japanese international relations over the last few years. This isn't the Japan of old that is content to sit under the US military envelope and . For the last five years there has been much debate about Japan as a "Normal" power. That means greater independence and ability to carry out its foreign policy on an international stage. You've seen military deployments across the world, as well as a continual debate on if and how to rewrite the constitution to reflect these shifts.

During the Koizumi and Abe terms the effects of the debate on the Japanese - US relationship weren't as apparent, as they were staunch defenders of the alliance. However that's changed significantly due to Abe's disastrous performance in office, and the Fukuda's assumption into office. He's actually been somewhat more reluctant to give unequivocal support to the United States, compared to his predecessors.

Right now, the US-Japanese coalition is being pulled from two sides. The first is the Nationalists who see independence from the US as a good thing, particularly after the pointed criticism they received as a result of Abe's visits to Yasukuni. That congressional rebuke he received has accelerated the schism. In 2005 Prominent nationalist Tokyo Mayor Shintaro Ishihara has even questioned whether the US will back up Japan in the event of a major war. He's advocated greater military independence, including nuclear weapons. From this perspective, not being able to procure the F-22 is just a sign of US hesitance, which will likely force them to go to the Europeans.

Second is the DPJ. You might want to read into their party platform; on foreign policy it resembles many left wing European parties. Mild anti americanism has been a staple of its policies. Ozawa has claimed that Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan isn't a UN mission, argues for closer ties with the China, and wants to adopt a more pacifist foreign policy. I really doubt he would allow the purchase of the F-22, if he even allows the program to go ahead at all.

[kalvasflam]

If anything the US refusal to sell Japan F-22 is just a sign of weakness. So, what, it's the most advanced fighter today, but if there isn't someone somewhere putting the next ATF on the board, I would be just shocked.

With allies like Japan, selling them the F-22 make sense. Why? Because like every other country, you don't want them to develop their own homegrown tech that might be 10x better than what you have. You'd rather have them be dependent on you. That's why it was a good idea to put the JSF out for sale. Just like it is a good idea in the long run to put the F-22 out to the Japanese. I would be less inclined to put it out to Israel knowing that those guys would just turn right around and put the tech out on the open market, and evolve out their own stuff from it.

After all, you beat the other guy by being one generation ahead, not by keeping the current generation away from them.

[Noyhauser]

Well I doubt it would be 10X better, but Mitsubishi has started developing its own home grown 5th gen aircraft the ATD-X Shinshin. Funding for the program has been unstable, reflecting the unease the government has with developing its own homegrown fighter. However the program was only started when the F-22 was taken off the table.

[Vifam7]

I wouldn't read too much into what the loud mouth Nationalists and DPJ troublemaking fools say. Besides, the LDP still controls the more powerful House of Representatives in the Diet (which also allows them to choose the PM).

Personally, I think the chances of Japan getting the Eurofighter is extremely slim. Besides, they're looking for a major upgrade in capability. The Eurofighter comes nowhere near what the Raptor offers. Buying the Eurofighter is like buying an upgraded F-15 or Super Hornet, except at a higher price.

On a separate note, Lockheed-Martin and Boeing are probably already working on Congress to sell their ware to Japan. Afterall it's going to be a very lucrative contract!

If I had to bet, I think Japan will eventually get a slightly downgraded Raptor.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Vifam7

[Starscream]

I wouldn't read too much into what the loud mouth Nationalists and DPJ troublemaking fools say. Besides, the LDP still controls the more powerful House of Representatives in the Diet (which also allows them to choose the PM).

Personally, I think the chances of Japan getting the Eurofighter is extremely slim. Besides, they're looking for a major upgrade in capability. The Eurofighter comes nowhere near what the Raptor offers. Buying the Eurofighter is like buying an upgraded F-15 or Super Hornet, except at a higher price.

On a separate note, Lockheed-Martin and Boeing are probably already working on Congress to sell their ware to Japan. Afterall it's going to be a very lucrative contract!

If I had to bet, I think Japan will eventually get a slightly downgraded Raptor.

QFT.

I see Japan getting the F-22A 7-12 years from now. At that point the US's F-22 fleet will be widespread and already pushing third gen block upgrades to the avionics and minor changes to the airframe. It's typical for us. Infact, the ONLY country flying US Aircraft with a higher block upgrade is the UAE, which flies the Block 60 F-16C (Utilizing the Conformal Fuel Tanks). In all actuality, the F-16C Block 60 isn't that different from a Block 40 aside from the CFT's.

There's a huge reason behind it all, as well. Think about it- do we REALLY want to give our top aircraft to another country, REGARDLESS of that country, on the same par as our own? That'd be foolish. So yes, I do see Japan EVENTUALLY getting the F-22's. But not for a while. At least not until we roll out the F-22B. And while the Eurofighter Typhoon is a BAD ASS aircraft (I won't deny it), pound for pound, it's not the F-22. The cost is majorly inflated for production compared to that of the F-22. But only time will tell.

As far as the reason why I stated the YF-23 was from the 80's... Air Force (including experimental/test aircraft) tail numbers tell the year and production number. Example: There's an F-16CJ Block 52 with Tail Number 92-043. That's the 43rd aircraft to roll from production in 1992. Bare in mind, I've been in the Air Force for almost 9 years now.

[David Hingtgen]

Serial numbers only say when the money was allocated, not when built. Usually it's pretty close, especially for aircraft already in production. But for new planes and early ones---the serial is often several years "lower" than when the plane actually rolled out. Thus, the YF-23's got the money earmarked in 1987, but weren't built until 1990. Also why the first F-22's have 1991 serial numbers, despite not being built until MUCH later.

92-043----not the 43rd plane built in 1992. The 43rd plane that had money allocated for its production in fiscal year 1992 by the govt. Depending on what else was built that year, it could have been the 43rd or 764th plane built that year, chronologically... This is why planes have nice sequential numbers in groups---they all have their money allocated in chunks, not one-by-one as they roll off the line.

Aircraft serial numbers have always been about when ORDERED/paid for, not built. Even civil ones. Example: United orders some 777's. They'll get serial numbers 20050 through 20060. (The 20050th plane ever ordered from Boeing, etc). But United won't get the next 10 off the line. Could be line/construction numbers 803, 805, 834, 902, etc. Planes with sequential (or very close) serials could be built months, possibly years apart.

Plus, "important" planes get to have whatever serial suits them. The YF-22's were 87-700 and 87-701. YF-23's were 87-800 and 87-801. It wasn't sheer chance they got such "nice" "competitive" numbers. And various Air Force Ones are 62-6000 and 62-7000, and 92-8000 and 92-9000. The last two are 1987-built BTW.

[Noyhauser]

I wouldn't read too much into what the loud mouth Nationalists and DPJ troublemaking fools say. Besides, the LDP still controls the more powerful House of Representatives in the Diet (which also allows them to choose the PM).

... I'm sure the LDP wants the same optimism you have about their prospects. The only reason why they haven't lost the upper house is because they aren't constitutionally mandated to have an election until next year. Insiders in the LDP actually believe they will lose the next election and Fukuda is in the 20s for his popularity.

Personally, I think the chances of Japan getting the Eurofighter is extremely slim. Besides, they're looking for a major upgrade in capability. The Eurofighter comes nowhere near what the Raptor offers. Buying the Eurofighter is like buying an upgraded F-15 or Super Hornet, except at a higher price.

I'm telling you this now, so listen. The Japanese procurement agency looks likely to buy the Eurofighter. You can disbelieve it all you want, but the people I know who watch this carefully, say that its the odds on favorite. No offense, the attitude that Japan will only buy U.S. fighters, is similar to how alot of people believed EADS could never win a major US contract. And yet here we are today.

[Starscream]

Serial numbers only say when the money was allocated, not when built. Usually it's pretty close, especially for aircraft already in production. But for new planes and early ones---the serial is often several years "lower" than when the plane actually rolled out. Thus, the YF-23's got the money earmarked in 1987, but weren't built until 1990. Also why the first F-22's have 1991 serial numbers, despite not being built until MUCH later.

92-043----not the 43rd plane built in 1992. The 43rd plane that had money allocated for its production in fiscal year 1992 by the govt. Depending on what else was built that year, it could have been the 43rd or 764th plane built that year, chronologically... This is why planes have nice sequential numbers in groups---they all have their money allocated in chunks, not one-by-one as they roll off the line.

Aircraft serial numbers have always been about when ORDERED/paid for, not built. Even civil ones. Example: United orders some 777's. They'll get serial numbers 20050 through 20060. (The 20050th plane ever ordered from Boeing, etc). But United won't get the next 10 off the line. Could be line/construction numbers 803, 805, 834, 902, etc. Planes with sequential (or very close) serials could be built months, possibly years apart.

Plus, "important" planes get to have whatever serial suits them. The YF-22's were 87-700 and 87-701. YF-23's were 87-800 and 87-801. It wasn't sheer chance they got such "nice" "competitive" numbers. And various Air Force Ones are 62-6000 and 62-7000, and 92-8000 and 92-9000. The last two are 1987-built BTW.

I've always been under the impression it was the roll-out/delivery date that determined. Between that and every aircraft I've worked around has had it's NDI and other scheduled phase maintenance in perfect line with the tail number year designator. Hrmm.

[eugimon]

http://www.rockwellcollins.com/news/video/...-tolerance.html

[Lindem Herz]

So, they finally made autopilots based on Israeli pilots?

[vermillion01]

Came across this on DIGG.... hmmmm methinks i need to start saving for a new weekend hobby.. could it time to say 'goodbye' macross toys?

nice toy

[F-ZeroOne]

Not strictly aircraft exactly, but the Worlds second most otaku military organisation - the UKs - has launched the final satellite for its Skynet network. You have a few more days to find a 40 megawatt pulse rifle and an EMP generator before it goes on-line and starts hunting puny fleshlings, folks!

[the white drew carey]

Came across this on DIGG.... hmmmm methinks i need to start saving for a new weekend hobby.. could it time to say 'goodbye' macross toys?

nice toy

I envision recurring search parties for dozens of rich idiots who crash their A5's in the wilderness.

[Warmaker]

Over at MCAS Miramar on June 18, we had a SNCO & Officer PME / Training for a guest speaker, Col Leon Williamson, USMC (ret). The WWII generation is passing through as the years pass, and it was nice to have him around.

He was with VMSB-241, based at Midway, and participated in the battle flying SB2U-3 Vindicators. He was 1 of 2 survivors for the unit at Midway.

Battle of Midway - 65th Anniv. Page

He was awarded a Navy Cross and also participated in Guadalcanal.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Warmaker

[F-ZeroOne]

There was a T.V. programme broadcast in the U.K. the other day which featured one of the last surviving Dambusters visiting Germany. He went to see a power pylon that one of the Dambusters crews fatally flew into on the mission. His reaction?

"Bitch!"

[Bowen]

Some funny and/or interesting tidbits I picked up on the net...

Dracula's Aliens Attack Romanian MIG

Biomechanical Jetfighters Closer Than We Suspect?

Iran's Homebuilt Fighter Jet Makes It's First Appearance In 'Public'

~Bowen