Macross outside Japan.

[Macross007]

I want to start this thread because recently, I have seen a lot of people here saying that Harmony Gold will eventually block any Macross merchandise coming from Japan. Well, I guess it's true but it's not a fatality. I explain myself : Bandai has a weapon called Internet. For example, I can see Bandai open a Macross's virtual store in it japanese website for non japanese speakers. If Macross Frontier is a hit, most anime fans will eventually know about the franchise and if they are interested enough, I'm sure they will buy Macross merchandise directly from Bandai's japanese website. And all that without lawsuits or without altering the name "Macross" for an international release. What do you think guys ?

Edited April 11, 2008 by Macross007

[Gubaba]

I voted for "I'm not sure." A lot would depend on how much the shipping is, and how fast they could ship it.

And is HG still blocking Macross merchandise? I thought they stopped a few years back...

[Vegas]

NO. hopefully it will in the 50th anniversary

[Exsedol]

Screw em, macross is still alive because of over seas fans like us. They can't stop the internet. Plus the old idiot in charge of Harmony Gold is like 1 week away from death so hopefully his death will lead to a new rebirth of Macross here in the states.

[Gubaba]

Screw em, macross is still alive because of over seas fans like us. They can't stop the internet. Plus the old idiot in charge of Harmony Gold is like 1 week away from death so hopefully his death will lead to a new rebirth of Macross here in the states.

...Because so few companies outlive their founders.

[Macross007]

Screw em, macross is still alive because of over seas fans like us. They can't stop the internet. Plus the old idiot in charge of Harmony Gold is like 1 week away from death so hopefully his death will lead to a new rebirth of Macross here in the states.

I hate Robotech with a passion too, but I do not want to see or wish people dying for that.

[Macross007]

I voted for "I'm not sure." A lot would depend on how much the shipping is, and how fast they could ship it.

And is HG still blocking Macross merchandise? I thought they stopped a few years back...

But the really question is HG is going to do it again with a possible international release of Macross Frontier ?

Edited April 12, 2008 by Macross007

[Vince]

what else did HG ever do anyway?

[Gubaba]

what else did HG ever do anyway?

I know they made the '80s miniseries "Shaka Zulu." I think they may have produced some movies, as well. Nothing big, mind you.

*crosses fingers that this doesn't turn into an HG-bashing thread that has to be locked*

[Vince]

I know they made the '80s miniseries "Shaka Zulu." I think they may have produced some movies, as well. Nothing big, mind you.

*crosses fingers that this doesn't turn into an HG-bashing thread that has to be locked*

I was just wondering, thx.

[jenius]

Isn't HG involved in real estate also? It's an odd company. Anyway, Bandai wouldn't be able to ship outside Japan but pay for downloads? That might work... for a while at least.

[VFTF1]

I completely misunderstood the question and voted poo.

I thought you meant as in just promoting Macross as such - which I figured was kind of redundant since it already does that over the internet...

didn't know you meant promoting macross specifically aimed at the US market as a way around Horrible Goblins.

VFTF1

[Macross007]

I completely misunderstood the question and voted poo.

I thought you meant as in just promoting Macross as such - which I figured was kind of redundant since it already does that over the internet...

VFTF1

Actually both : Promoting and selling the Macross franchise and merchandise. Yeah, Macross is on the Internet, but it could be better. Only fans with their limited ressources are promoting Macross on the web. If a big corporation like Bandai with big ressources invest money in promoting Macross on the Internet, I'm sure the visibility of the franchise will eventually increase so do the profits for Bandai. After all, the music industry is doing it and it is benefiting from it.

didn't know you meant promoting macross specifically aimed at the US market as a way around Horrible Goblins.

Not specifically aimed at the US market, but for the international market since "Horrible Goblins" own the name "Macross" outside Japan.

Horrible Goblins lol.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Macross007

[VFTF1]

Actually both : Promoting and selling the Macross franchise and merchandise. Yeah, Macross is on the Internet, but it could be better. Only fans with their limited ressources are promoting Macross on the web. If a big corporation like Bandai with big ressources invest money in promoting Macross on the Internet, I'm sure the visibility of the franchise will eventually increase so do the profits for Bandai. After all, the music industry is doing it and it is benefiting from it.

This, I think, is debatable - and I am, in any event, rather skeptical... Skeptical of the notion that if a big corporation with big resources invests the money in promoting Macross then the franchise will benefit. I agree that certainly visibility will increase, but will the franchise really benefit - that I am skeptical about.

Here is why:

For a very long time I was a loyal Transformers fan; and in the dark days when there were no Transformers in the US, there was no comic book, and the toys were few, far between or even non-existant, the fanbase on the internet did a superb job - all things considered - keeping the franchise alive.

Fanfiction flourished, conventions flourished, fan comic books flourished. And Transformers never had it better in terms of the quality of the stories, the care shown for the older toys, and the general culture surrounding the franchise.

When Hasbro finally got on the ball and started investing heavily in marketing Transformers again; please note what happened. Yes, naturally there were huge positives - new toys, reissues of Generation 1 (by Takara as well), new story lines, Beast Wars (truly outstanding)...

But at some point it appears that the corporate powers made the decision that to keep Transformers viable, the franchise must constantly reinvent itself, shed any pretense to continuity, and change its' form and style to fit with passing fads and market demand.

I am not attacking Hasbro in writing this - I prefer that Transformers exists; that we are able to get reissues and the occasional really cool new toy to the days when it didn't.

But I am not convinced that the franchise as such hasn't suffered. In fact, as a Transformers fan, I have to strangely cut myself off from what is happening in Transformers nowadays. The Armada-Energon-Cybertron shows were terrible; horrible. The characters have been totally recycled a thousand times and each time they loose a little more of themselves...

I just don't feel comfortable with this situation. The Dreamwave comics were horrible...

I guess what I'm getting at is that massive corporate engagement in the promotion of a franchise isn't necessarily beneficial for it.

I have a terrible feeling that Transformers will suffer from the excessive amount of creative energy emerging from corporate focus groups rather than from fan driven projects - although - I'm not trying to be extreme or alarmist here; I know that the fandom still has a lot of creative endeavors ongoing...

I'm really not trying to bash Hasbro - that's not how I want these remarks to be interpretted. I guess I'm just saying that for Macross - it doesn't necessarily hurt to be low key, quite, a niche in the market - if Macross were to really try to expand and burst into the mainstream as Transformers did - I am sure that we would all be a bit saddened because...well... it wouldn't be the Macross we know and love...

And it's hard to make such compromises... sometimes I think it's better to be content with being a niche in the market and reveling in the quality of something than wishing that EEEVVERRYONE loved what you love - even if that means diluting the very thing you love to suit everyones' tastes.

VFTF1

[terry the lone wolf]

what else did HG ever do anyway?

Well in the anime realm they dubbed The Adventures of Captain Harlock(with Ziv Entertainment) & Captain Harlock & the Queen of 1000 Years(they tried to use the same formula as RT by merging two unrelated series together: Captain Harlock & Queen Millenia). HG also dubbed TOEI's anime horror specials Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned(based on Marvel's Tomb of Dracula comics) & Frankenstien. They were the first north american company to dub Dragonball. Finally, Tatsunoko & HG had a long relationship with international distrubution of anime so maybe some early Tats anime might have been distubuted by HG.

Edited April 12, 2008 by terry the lone wolf

[Sumdumgai]

Macross can work outside of Japan. Look at all the people who still watch that Roblowtech crap.

As mentioned in other threads by other people, Bandai could always drop the name "Macross" from it and call it something else like "Megaroad Frontier" or "Megalord Frontier".

[VFTF1]

I think another major problem with this - and now don't get mad at me or say I'm "America bashing" because that would be the equivalent of bashing myself...

... is that generally it seems that in the USA dubbing is prefered to sub-titles and generally things are cut to conform with certain cultural parameteres - and both of these factors would most certainly make the US-release of MF (under whatever heading) worse than the Japanese.

I prefer such experiments not to be done. Let it be in Japanese. Let it be original. Let it be different. Let it be sub-titled.

just my opinion.

VFTF1

[Duke Togo]

My question is, do Big West and Bandai care about those of us outside of Japan?

[akt_m]

My question is, do Big West and Bandai care about those of us outside of Japan?

Probably not, i guess the japanese creators (or some of them) think we (non japanese) are not worthy enough for their cool stuff...

Edited April 13, 2008 by akt_m

[sketchley]

Could be the opposite - they are waiting patiently for a distributor to approach them.

That said, look at all the other anime being exported. It's not a "us Japanese don't want to sell to non-Japanese", but something particular to Macross and/or the perceived (lack of) popularity with the anime/entertainment/character goods/etc. that are not exported from Japan. (Though if we talk about physical products that must be transported across an ocean to reach the customers. consideration must be made regarding the shipping and currency exchange costs added to the item. Therefore, one can see a lot of high value goods being exported (model kits, Yamato toys), but not much of the low value goods (stationary goods, Keitai straps, etc..)

[terry the lone wolf]

Probably not, i guess the japanese creators (or some of them) think we (non japanese) are not worthy enough for their cool stuff...

I don't agree. Oh course Big West wants an open door to sell MACROSS to us westerners Besides Europe, I think we're the largest consumers of anime. With long running titles like Gundam getting second life here in the states I believe BW wants the same thing for MACROSS. A few years ago it almost happened when BW licenced MACROSS 7: Trash to TokyoPop. They pulled back when they found out that TP cut a side deal with Harmony Gold. HG even promoted the realese of TRASH on ROBOTECH.com.

[JB0]

A few years ago it almost happened when BW licenced MACROSS 7: Trash to TokyoPop. They pulled back when they found out that TP cut a side deal with Harmony Gold. HG even promoted the realese of TRASH on ROBOTECH.com.

I remember that.

Then when it fell through, HG deleted the news from their website archives.

[Gubaba]

A few years ago it almost happened when BW licenced MACROSS 7: Trash to TokyoPop. They pulled back when they found out that TP cut a side deal with Harmony Gold.

Do we KNOW that's what happened, or is it merely an educated guess?

IIRC, TokyoPop trumpeted the release of Mac7 Trash, HG mentioned something about it, and then suddenly, it disappeared, with no explanation.

I'm not trying to be an HG apologist...I think they're reprehensible, but there's so little actually known about what kind of deal they have, that sorting fact from speculation becomes really difficult.

I've read through the whole HG vs. Big West thread here, and ended up more confused than before...

[Radd]

I suspect the threat of litigation, whether or not HG has any legal standing whatsoever, will be enough to keep Macross out of the US for the foreseeable future.

Combined with the current sad state of western anime distribution, there's really not much of a chance we'll see Frontier get a western release.

[Macross007]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-...online-releases

First step ? Maybe ...

[wolfx]

I've not been following the HG debate so i'm abit lost.

I thought HG has been blocking only the 1st macross series, SDFM, because they have bought rights to it?

That's why Macross Plus made it to the US through Bandai visual because it was an entirely new animation. So why would Frontier be affected by this supposed protection of HG's property and interests?

Or is anything with the word "MACROSS" affected?

[Sergorn]

Nay. There's been no blocking of the original SDFM. As a matter of fact it's probably the only series that they actually *have* the actual rights to sell and distribute.

To make a long story short - Harmony Gold essentially claims that due their original contracts with Tatsunoko regarding SDFM, that they hold the rights outside of Japan for any existing Macross series ever to be made. The claim seems ludicrous at best - though legally speaking I assume there has to be some loophole or confusing statement in this contract for them to be able to make that claim (Indeed... the Japanese weren't very careful when selling the rights to their series during the '80 - that lead to several legal mess and conflicts and companies trying to ripp-off the original creators - we've had a share of that in France recently).

And yeah, Manga Video released both Macross Plus and Macross II and other editors did as well in other parts in the world (as a matter of fact there was some interest for releasing Macross 7 as well, but it fell through because of how expensive it would be to license the music) but HG claims that had no right to do this and only managed to because Harmony Gold was 'understaffed' at the time and thus couldn't block them.

And essentially HG started making those claims when they suddenly got back from the dead and announced the upcoming sequel to Robotech. So now it's such a legal mess that nobody dares challenging Harmony Gold and releasing any new Macross (or even re-releasing Macross II & Plus AFAK). It's safe to assume that without this mess Macross Zero would long have been released both in US and Europe. (Hell you can pretty assume as well that the lack of any direct reference to Macross events and characters in Shadow Chronicles is a direct consequence of this as well)

Personally I just can't help having the feeling that HG created this mess so that no new Macross could be released and potentially undermine the sales of their new Robotech series.

-Sergorn

Edited April 29, 2008 by Sergorn

[wolfx]

Thanks for explanation sergorn, but if this is the case it would seem HG has little to no case and can easily be settled in court, this mess will be cleared up once and for all.

[Zinjo]

I voted for "I'm not sure." A lot would depend on how much the shipping is, and how fast they could ship it.

And is HG still blocking Macross merchandise? I thought they stopped a few years back...

They can't block imports of merchandise into the US. If the products were being made here, they could try to sick their lawyers on them, but then they'd be in a fight with Bandai - a fight they would have no hope of winning...

If Bandai wanted to flex it's corporate muscles, they'd kill HG as Bandai's pockets are fairly deep compared to HG.

[taksraven]

When Hasbro finally got on the ball and started investing heavily in marketing Transformers again; please note what happened. Yes, naturally there were huge positives - new toys, reissues of Generation 1 (by Takara as well), new story lines, Beast Wars (truly outstanding)...

VFTF1

Have to agree there. Beast Wars was a brilliant and vastly underrated series. Its too bad that it has now "dropped off the radar" to such a large extent. Now we have the characterisation-free movie franchise. The thing that Beast Wars really got right was making the characters interesting. All TF since then has simply sucked.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

As mentioned in other threads by other people, Bandai could always drop the name "Macross" from it and call it something else like "Megaroad Frontier" or "Megalord Frontier".

They could, but they should not have to.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-...online-releases

First step ? Maybe ...

More like dipping a toe in to check the temperature.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

I've not been following the HG debate so i'm abit lost.

I thought HG has been blocking only the 1st macross series, SDFM, because they have bought rights to it?

That's why Macross Plus made it to the US through Bandai visual because it was an entirely new animation. So why would Frontier be affected by this supposed protection of HG's property and interests?

Or is anything with the word "MACROSS" affected?

Not sure. There was a HUGE delay between the releases of Macross Plus parts three and four and I heard that some sort of legal action was involved. The story I heard was that the Japanese were demanding more money because of the success of M+ in the West. Can anybody confirm or deny this.

Taksraven

[Zinjo]

Nay. There's been no blocking of the original SDFM. As a matter of fact it's probably the only series that they actually *have* the actual rights to sell and distribute.

To make a long story short - Harmony Gold essentially claims that due their original contracts with Tatsunoko regarding SDFM, that they hold the rights outside of Japan for any existing Macross series ever to be made. The claim seems ludicrous at best - though legally speaking I assume there has to be some loophole or confusing statement in this contract for them to be able to make that claim (Indeed... the Japanese weren't very careful when selling the rights to their series during the '80 - that lead to several legal mess and conflicts and companies trying to ripp-off the original creators - we've had a share of that in France recently).

And yeah, Manga Video released both Macross Plus and Macross II and other editors did as well in other parts in the world (as a matter of fact there was some interest for releasing Macross 7 as well, but it fell through because of how expensive it would be to license the music) but HG claims that had no right to do this and only managed to because Harmony Gold was 'understaffed' at the time and thus couldn't block them.

And essentially HG started making those claims when they suddenly got back from the dead and announced the upcoming sequel to Robotech. So now it's such a legal mess that nobody dares challenging Harmony Gold and releasing any new Macross (or even re-releasing Macross II & Plus AFAK). It's safe to assume that without this mess Macross Zero would long have been released both in US and Europe. (Hell you can pretty assume as well that the lack of any direct reference to Macross events and characters in Shadow Chronicles is a direct consequence of this as well)

Personally I just can't help having the feeling that HG created this mess so that no new Macross could be released and potentially undermine the sales of their new Robotech series.

-Sergorn

Actually most of the legal mess was settled in 2002 when BW & SN were awarded "Author's Rights" (essentially IP rights) to the Macross franchise and Tatsunoko was left with "Makers Rights" which gave them control over the SDFM animation outside of Japan. Thus by proxy HG only holds those rights as well.

However, in a slick move that I'm sure BW is still kicking itself over, HG managed to gain the uncontested trademark over the name "Macross" in North America in early 2003 (a few months after BW won their Japanese case). Now armed with that trademark they have a say in any production coming to these shores with the "Macross" brand name. Hence why we probably won't see the remastered Mac Plus from Manga Ent. (under the Macross brand name), as they'd have to pay some sort of licensing fee to HG for use of the "Macross" name and BW won't have any of that. HG is seen as the ally of Tatsunoko who tried to steal the Macross franchise from it's proper owners and thus are not to be dealt with.

That being said, if BW truly wanted to sidestep the whole HG "blockade" on "Macross" branded products, they have the Bluray Disc in their arsenal. Since BD's region coding includes North America and Japan, all Bandai Visual has to do is add an English subtitle track to their Macross releases and voila, the US market is available to them again, albeit by foreign purchasers, but available nonetheless.

This method allows market penetration without the legal battle over trademark ownership (which they could win back in Canada very easily and then set up a branch office to distribute their merchandise legally in North America, but that's another story).

However, this all depends on how much Bigwest wants into the North American market. I can't see why not, but I am not one of their executives, so I can not answer such a question.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Zinjo

[Gubaba]

Not sure. There was a HUGE delay between the releases of Macross Plus parts three and four and I heard that some sort of legal action was involved. The story I heard was that the Japanese were demanding more money because of the success of M+ in the West. Can anybody confirm or deny this.

Taksraven

I don't think it was legal action...for whatever reason (i.e. I don't know why), the music tracks never got delivered to create the dub for Volume Four. So if you watch the English version of Volume Four, they just went with Sharon Apple songs from the first three volumes. I don't know if they corrected it for the DVD or not, but apparently bandai Visual fixed it for the English audio track on the remastered Plus DVDs.

By the way...I've heard from several people around here that Plus and II are no longer available...is that reallly true? Both of them are still listed at amazon (and available new, not just used) and at Manga's website...