Macross Frontier Episode 2 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[taksraven]

Yay, Shinsen has put up a fansub of episode one. Looks like they are going to continue doing Macross Frontier. Great stuff...

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Ok. I have finally watched this - the Gai sub!

I assume it's ok to write "spoilers" now... so here I go!

Impressions:

1. I'll start with the negative. Episode 1 focused very heavily on Alto, with Ranka as maybe a supporting female role. It was really about the two of them, with other characters making appearances. Even Sheryl was just there to give a concert, the president was just there to answer and make phone calls etc etc. In this episode, all of those supporting characters suddenly start getting fleshed out - but I note with sadness that in the majority of cases it comes across as way too melodramatic. It's as though each of them got a que "ok - your five minutes! make it good!" and tried to use voice intonation to underscore that their particular scene was very important. Overall, this made the episode feel somewhat cluttered, and diluted because while all of the characters got a plot progress bump, none were particularly significant.

2. That said; the good stuff. We'll start with the obvious homage material to SDF Macross TV. First, it was good to see that while obvously an homage to Hikaru and Minmey, the scene where Ranka falls from the Valkyrie into the sky has a completely different dynamic. In fact, I felt it was quite clever because they got you thinking "oh, homage - no he just grabs her hand like Hikaru - how nice..." and suddenly he doesn't grab her hand - and that's unexpected. In general, however, the entire scene was very well done - and it was more fleshed out. Alto having to be very careful scooping up Ranka in order not to crush her... and he's a good pilot too. Does a good job.

3. The Misa Hayes Wanna Be is nowhere as cute as Misa, and seventeen times more stubbornly by the book evil. But maybe for people back in 1982, Misa was equally "demonic" as this lady is for me now in Macross F. In any event, while I fell in love with Misa from day one - this girl is not easy to fall in love with. I think it's obvious though that she'll end up falling for Ranka's brother. The two of them are soldiers at heart - but she is of the Military discipline line (reminds me of the hardheaded Colonol from Macross 7 who decided to form a Military Music Brigade), while he is obviously more of the equivalent of Keyboard Man - dissillusioned with the Military and its' protocol, but determined to use his skills to help people anyways. I think these two will get together eventually.

4. Pilot Arrogance. Come on - Alto did a swell job in his Valkyrie. Those guys criticizing him for being an amateur are just jealous. Also, this is sure a heck of a lot different from how Roy treated Shin and Hikaru. Ranka's brother needs to chill out here and give Alto the benefit of the doubt. I agree with his decision not to let Alto pilot the Valkyrie into battle - but slugging him was stupid. The guy saved your sister dude. And Roy never was that creul to Hikaru or Shin - he was a tough Sempai, but always showed his love. Ranka's brother is kind of a poser. He plays Fire Bomber in his car and drives recklessly, but he also lies to his sister and slugs the guy who saved her life - and the honor of his squad. Looser.

5. Sheryl Nome is alot more likable in this episode. Sure, she's still making demands on the basis of being a pop star, but she's nice to Ranka - the question I have is: why? Why the sudden change? And in my perception it is a change... then again - she's probably got a lot of Minmey's fickle character in her - so maybe my question is as dumb and naive as when Hikaru asks Roy "Can a girl just change her mind - just like that?" Oh - and Sheryl continues the proud SDF M TV tradition of pop singers whose performance costume looks aweful while wearing really great outfits when not on stage. I have nothing particularly against the idea of BDSM military sex suits - but Sheryl just didn't look very appealing in them. I don't know; either I'm turned off by it, or it just looks ridiculous, or Sheryl doesn't have the figure for it... or maybe the get up totally did NOT match the song and the choreography was off. Yeah - that first concert was actually peed poor But now, in episode 2, Sheryl is pleasent to look at. She's cute; she's lady like, she takes a walk and she's nice to Ranka.

6. Ranka - Ranka I fell in love with from the first time I saw her in Nyan Nyan. She's a real hotty, but she's also sweet and sensitive and full of empathy all the while remaining a very polite, bright, well mannered intelligent girl. I love her hair, her cell phone, and her sill little dress. She is all around probably the most lovable Macross girl since Misa Hayes. Probably because she shares Misa's vulnerability and femininity without the inhibition of also dishing out orders all the time. She's a normal down to earth girl...Who just happens to sing better than Sheryl Nome?!?!? Er - yeah - I don't get that part. It just doesn't fly with me - it's nice that Ranka sings. I sing too. But if you pit my voice with Yoshiki's voice, I don't think anybody would be inviting me to join firebomber. It is possible that Ranka just happens to take singing lessons or have a beautiful voice or an inborn talent or something - but well...what a coincidence. Then again, I'm the guy who is always defending Basara - so, I guess I'll shut up...

7. Return Of Gay Tactical Operations Man. No offense to people who are gay; and perhaps Gay Tactical Operations Man is not gay, but I think they blew this guy. I liked the original one from SDF M alot better. Then again - it's another nice homage. And it sure beats those clean cut cardboard cutout characters who would be doing this job in other shows...

8. The Valkyrie. We get to see more of them - and I get the feeling that they're just a little TOO complex. Also, is it me, or does each Valk have its' own special gunpod? Clearly that thing that Mikhael was using was not a standard issue VF gunpod, no? Also, why is Luca a full fledged member of the SMS while Alto gets punched in the face? I'm not denouncing Luca or anything; I mean kid's obviously got talent, and they put him in an ELINT to keep him relatively safe (although, on the other hand, I really wonder whether being in an ELINT in the middle of a war zone is the safest thing), but it just doesn't fit that Luca is part of the gang while Alto gets a black eye. That ain't right. Oh - and my guess: Luca will be killed. He's just too vulnerable.

9. The Military Siezing Alto - well... this was kind of silly. Actually, no - sorry - it was dumb. I sure as heck hope that the "because you made contact with the enemy" line was one big lie. I mean - I'm sure a whole lot of people made contact with the enemy. Does that mean that we need to be rounding them up and taking blood samples from them? Maybe - but it's just a bit far fetched. But I'll give the Misa Hayes Wannabe this much: at least she asked Alto the obvious question - would he like to join the military - instead of giving him a black eye for saving his sister. Oh - speaking of saving people - WHERE did Sheryl get that picture of Alto carrying her in mid flight?! Was that a hologram and part of the show - I don't get it - I'm lost - why did Sheryl suddenly really need to find him? In any case, if I were Alto - I'd say "screw you" to the SMS and join the regular military - and give those SMS guys a run for their money. But I see that the show is somewhat playing with our nostalgia. We expect Ranka's brother to grunt and smile like Roy Fokker would and say "Yoos! Hikaru! HA HA HA!" and give him a helment and say "That's the spirit!" But yeah - I guess it's more realistic that if a circus acrobat asked to pilot a combat fighter during an alien invasion he would probably ge punched in the nose.

10. I have saved the best for last - Fire Bomber!!!! YAAAAAYYY!!!! So - where is Sound Force?! Why doesn't Macross Frontier have a Sound Force squadron to deploy? Why not set up big speakers with Basara - ow! ow! Stop pelting me with eggs guys Ok, ok - I know I know - this isn't Macross 7... but it sure FEELS like Macross 7 in one respect: we know jumble jack jersy about the enemy! SDF Macross TV had Breetai and Exedol bantering with one another from the get go; but Macross Frontier seems to be on track to follow Macross 7 in the "8 episodes of mystery monster attacks" award --- and I don't like that. The Vagina - or whatever they're called - really need to be opened and fleshed out.

But overall yeah - this series is great! I got the impressin from this episode that the perfect balance had been struck between a homage to all of the various Macross series and OVAs as well as having a sense that something new and exciting was happening.

Congrats to the crew on this one!

VFTF1

[Final Vegeta]

Is it just me or is Sheryl, so far, an insufferable, childish, egotistical, Diva?

I agree, but I also like characters that aren't Mr. Sympathy.

FV

[Radd]

There are a few things I don't particularly agree are "negatives", but this one stands out to me.

9. The Military Siezing Alto - well... this was kind of silly. Actually, no - sorry - it was dumb. I sure as heck hope that the "because you made contact with the enemy" line was one big lie. I mean - I'm sure a whole lot of people made contact with the enemy. Does that mean that we need to be rounding them up and taking blood samples from them? Maybe - but it's just a bit far fetched.

Dude, as far as I know they still vaccinate military people heading to far ends of the world, so what exactly is so silly about taking precautions when someone comes in contact with an alien, or at the very least an alien device we know precious little about? I think it would be far more unrealistic if they didn't round up everyone who had come within close proximity of the thing.

But I'll give the Misa Hayes Wannabe this much: at least she asked Alto the obvious question - would he like to join the military - instead of giving him a black eye for saving his sister.

Pretty certain you misunderstood that scene in a big way.

Oh - speaking of saving people - WHERE did Sheryl get that picture of Alto carrying her in mid flight?! Was that a hologram and part of the show - I don't get it

Yes, that scene occurs in the broadcast edition of the show. Ozma worked and trained hard to get where he is, entrusted with an expensive experimental fighter, and he just lost a team mate who'd gone through as much. And here's this snot nosed kid, who did good, but still very green, asking to be handed one of those expensive fighters, to run out and face actual combat where he'd likely choke up and wind up another name etched on the war memorial? This, as Ozma is running out to do his job. He sent the message in a very blunt, direct manner which drives the point home, Alto isn't ready for that. I imagine if Alto had blocked or dodged the punch, Ozma probably would have grunted approval and said, "Not today kid. Go home.", rather than having the guards toss him out. As it is, Alto was in way over his head and had no idea, and would have wasted precious moments trying to argue while Ozma needed to get into his Valk and out to the battle.

Actually, as it is, I think there's a lot of story potential for Alto starting out regular military. Doubt that will happen, and I'm sure those following the manga know more of what's coming, but I do think that's a neat idea.

As for why Sheryl wanted to find Alto, isn't it obvious? He's all over the news, hero of the day, even if all he did was keep the alien busy for a few moments and save one girl. It'd be big publicity for her.

Hey, wait a minute...was Ozma's voice actor also Volfogg? Was Kamina Volfogg? Also Hanzo Hattori in Samurai Showdon? Man, he's had some choice roles.

[Strumvogel]

As for why Sheryl wanted to find Alto, isn't it obvious? He's all over the news, hero of the day, even if all he did was keep the alien busy for a few moments and save one girl. It'd be big publicity for her.

Actually Sheryl's reason for tracking down Alto isn't for her diva-like need for publicity, which I doubt is with-in her personality anyway. Take a good look at the video that Sheryl is looking at while on the phone to Cathy about tracking down Alto. There's a clue there.

[VFTF1]

You know - that picture looks like Alto is carrying Sheryl - like he's rescuing her - I'll take another look at it later tonight, but I don't recall Alto rescuing Sheryl so what gives with that picture?

VFTF1

[Elektrix]

You know - that picture looks like Alto is carrying Sheryl - like he's rescuing her - I'll take another look at it later tonight, but I don't recall Alto rescuing Sheryl so what gives with that picture?

VFTF1

It's from the broadcast version of Episode 1 - an additional part of the concert sequence that wasn't in the original Deculture edition.

-Elektrix

[Zinjo]

Ah. Sorry about that. Yeah my mac is from september 07 so it is a newer version intel based macbookpro. I have not tried it on my g5 or g4 yet. But that last explanation made sense. Bummer about planned obsolescence.

It could also be your vid card. I know I have a 3 year old vid card and my wmhd playback is more like a slideshow than a video. The video card takes the brunt of the processing and then the CPU picks up the slack.

If you can upgrade your vid card that will help.

[wolfx]

Hey, wait a minute...was Ozma's voice actor also Volfogg? Was Kamina Volfogg? Also Hanzo Hattori in Samurai Showdon? Man, he's had some choice roles.

You got it spot on.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...ople.php?id=780

Actually Sheryl's reason for tracking down Alto isn't for her diva-like need for publicity, which I doubt is with-in her personality anyway. Take a good look at the video that Sheryl is looking at while on the phone to Cathy about tracking down Alto. There's a clue there.

Damnit i didn't catch that. What did she drop? Ear rings? Contact lenses?

Whatever that shiny blue thing is....she wants it back badly.

[sketchley]

Darn it... only another hour and a half to go until episode 3...!

[whinging fan mode]Why can't it start a half hour earlier, like last week!!![/whinging fan mode]

[azrael]

Darn it... only another hour and a half to go until episode 3...!

[whinging fan mode]Why can't it start a half hour earlier, like last week!!![/whinging fan mode]

Go eat something. Go work on the Compendium. Find a way to kill time.

[kensei]

New Macross does down well with the phone turned off, doors and windows closed, big mojito, and DVD Recorder at the ready.

[sketchley]

Go eat something. Go work on the Compendium. Find a way to kill time.

Drinking beer. Yay! Thinking about drawing manga and/or studying kanji.

I wish I had a Bluray recorder and a nice thin, wall-mountable flat screen TV. Which won't be happening until after I move to the new house this weekend, and most likely not for another couple of months or years (Ie after Macross F has finished.) >.<

[MisaForever]

Drinking beer. Yay! Thinking about drawing manga and/or studying kanji.

I wish I had a Bluray recorder and a nice thin, wall-mountable flat screen TV. Which won't be happening until after I move to the new house this weekend, and most likely not for another couple of months or years (Ie after Macross F has finished.) >.<

Why would you want a bluray recorder for television broadcasts? Seems like it would be overkill to use a nice recording medium for a mediocre signal IMO Of course if you're one of those people who HAVE to have the latest and greatest things right when they come out then you're insane but again, just my opinion.

[sketchley]

Most every show is being (or soon to be) broadcast by "terrestrial digital" "hivision" (HDD). Bluray being the winner of the format wars, and (if I understand the commercials already) being advertised as the next gen DVD recorder. At the very least, one could fill it with a bunch of DVD quality material.

Mind you, this is all in the "would be nice, but ain't gonna happen anytime soon" catagory.

[MisaForever]

Most every show is being (or soon to be) broadcast by "terrestrial digital" "hivision" (HDD). Bluray being the winner of the format wars, and (if I understand the commercials already) being advertised as the next gen DVD recorder. At the very least, one could fill it with a bunch of DVD quality material.

Mind you, this is all in the "would be nice, but ain't gonna happen anytime soon" catagory.

Ohhhh I wasn't aware of that. Well, I take back my former comments then sir. Forgive my lack of understanding. That sounds cool.

[sketchley]

Cool, and rediculously expensive!

Mind you, with a kid and wife sleeping in the other room, it doesn't matter if I have the latest and greatest speaker system and amp. The 01:25 broadcast time of Macross F demands headphones. T.T;;;

[MisaForever]

Cool, and rediculously expensive!

Mind you, with a kid and wife sleeping in the other room, it doesn't matter if I have the latest and greatest speaker system and amp. The 01:25 broadcast time of Macross F demands headphones. T.T;;;

Yea, I know what you mean. I have to use headphones with my nice THX speaker system because I live in an apartment and even though I'm alone with my cat, I don't want to annoy the neighbors upstairs.

Edited April 17, 2008 by MisaForever

[ChronoReverse]

It could also be your vid card. I know I have a 3 year old vid card and my wmhd playback is more like a slideshow than a video. The video card takes the brunt of the processing and then the CPU picks up the slack.

If you can upgrade your vid card that will help.

Actually, for almost ALL systems, the Video Card doesn't affect decoding (except for colour-space conversions). Unless you're doing mpeg2 (which your cpu will handle easily anyway).

I know that my system can offload to the GPU but that's because I have both a 3850 AND Media Player Classic HC (the only current free player that can offload to GPU). And it only works for H.264 sometimes as well as VC-1.

[hga]

3. The Misa Hayes Wanna Be is nowhere as cute as Misa, and seventeen times more stubbornly by the book evil. But maybe for people back in 1982, Misa was equally "demonic" as this lady is for me now in Macross F.

Starting her attempt at recruiting Alto with a severe and pilot career ending threat was a BIG mistake and entirely pointless before she tried the carrot (see more below). And that firmly puts her in the "demonic" category for me. I don't think this is an '82 vs '08 perception difference, Misa was a lot better about using her authority.

Then again, I read the single biggest difference between the original and Frontier is that Earth's civilization has passed through a "singularity" that almost extinguished it. That left a very deep impression, such that they're still spending tremendous resources to disperse and strengthen themselves.

So unlike poor Hikaru, a man of peace, Alto starts out with the right attitudes. He wants to be a combat pilot. He reaction to seeing his city trashed (when he's hanging out on that red roof) is anger. He naturally recoils from the horrible fate of Gilliam ... but when duty calls, when he has no reason to believe he'll do any better than a pilot good enough to be in a not yet in service fighter, he "measures" himself and does his best, which is pretty good indeed. Note his fire discipline: sure, he emptied his gun pod (not much choice) but in at least three bursts including an initial test, and he doesn't waste any rounds on empty air (except to reaction time).

Similarly, we'd expect Cathy to have an harder attitude than Misa, she was born and raised after that singularity, and she's talking to Alto after a horrible battle, one that she knows was redeemed by SMS instead of her NUNS, and I suspect she knows the terrible losses NUNS took as well. So her being hard headed and hard hearted is no surprise.

In any event, while I fell in love with Misa from day one - this girl is not easy to fall in love with. I think it's obvious though that she'll end up falling for Ranka's brother. [ Expands on this theme. ]

I'd say ... maybe. The biggest problem I see is age difference. Ozma strikes me as being in his '30s at minimum, Cathy in her '20s. This is [NOT, see below] reinforced by their ranks (by my ear, Imperial Army ranks, at 3:57 in AiA I-Z version, where I take Mikhail to initially call out to Ozma by rank, then Gilliam by rank and name):

Ozma: Taichou, "literally Team Senior, meaning Team leader" [ thanks to Shun for correction ]

Gilliam: Taii, Captain

Cathy: Chuui, Lieutenant

So it's possible, war can result in a lot of odd outcomes, especially if this one gets really dire which it shows some signs of, but I wouldn't yet say it's likely.

There's also the issue of what's going to put them in enough proximity to get together? Unless she's seconded to SMS (say, because they're the only ones who can stop the Vajra, which seems to be realized by the end of episode 2 (then again, how many NUNS pilots and planes are left???)) I don't see it.

4. Pilot Arrogance. Come on - Alto did a swell job in his Valkyrie. Those guys criticizing him for being an amateur are just jealous. [ Roy in contrast. ] Ranka's brother needs to chill out here and give Alto the benefit of the doubt.

There's one big thing that's messing with everyone's head and heart: survivor guilt. Alto acutely feels it, and I'm pretty sure Ozma is (probably all those who knew Gilliam well, but not necessarily Alto's classmates).

Also I get the strong impression Ozma wants to keep the otoko hime-sama far away from his hime, who has an entirely natural and very strong attraction to Alto post-rescue.... Ozma is doomed to fail in the next episode , but then again Alto may get knocked off his pedestal (in her eyes).

I agree with his decision not to let Alto pilot the Valkyrie into battle - but slugging him was stupid. The guy saved your sister dude. [ Roy again. ] Ranka's brother is kind of a poser. He plays Fire Bomber in his car and drives recklessly, but he also lies to his sister and slugs the guy who saved her life - and the honor of his squad. Looser.

Yes to both of the first points, but Ozma is being pulled in many different directions right then. But poser or looser? I don't read the former at all, and not the latter yet; for one thing, does Ozma feel like an officer to you all? More like a senior NCO to me, e.g. officers aren't really supposed to dispense "NCO justice" (the punch).

But ultimately that was a stupid move. SMS and NUNS are going to need all the good pilots they can get, and Alto has demonstrated that he has a bunch of things you just can't teach, or really know about a pilot until he's in combat. E.g. you'll note he lost his concentration/situational awareness only once, when the yellow Vajra blasted the roof and Alto subsequently stopped dodging and let it shoot off his VF-25's arms. He only clutched up once, when the yellow was about to fire it's energy canon---not at all bad for a "newbie". If Cathy hadn't led off with the stick and could offer a VF-25, SMS making the sale to Alto could be very hard....

[ Sheryl. ]

6. Ranka [ we agree 100% ] ... Who just happens to sing better than Sheryl Nome?!?!? Er - yeah - I don't get that part....

Why not? It's well established in general anime that idol singers (which I'm not sure Sheryl is per se) are more luck than talent. And no matter how good Sheryl is now, that doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there with more raw talent. And we know Ranka's voice (and maybe more) is very special in some plot related way.

9. The Military Siezing Alto [ Well discussed and answered. ] But I'll give the Misa Hayes Wannabe this much: at least she asked Alto the obvious question - would he like to join the military - instead of giving him a black eye for saving his sister.

Yes and no. She first threatened him with a grave injustice. When Alto made his decision to jump into the abandoned VF-25, there was nothing better to do, and he had ample reason to believe he could pilot it. Plus she violated about the most important rule that successful military cultures have (but not apparently NUNS): taking the initiative when that is the right thing is to be rewarded, especially if you succeed.

There's a story of a Prussian officer who was sacked after an exercise where he let an allied unit get "destroyed" because he was following orders to stay put. In fact, you can score how successful a military is likely to be by how far down they push responsibility and initiative; for an army it had better be down to the NCOs.

[ Look in previous postings for where Sheryl got the pics and what she's searching for. ]

In any case, if I were Alto - I'd say "screw you" to the SMS and join the regular military - and give those SMS guys a run for their money.

See above; if I were Alto a very minimal even non-verbal apology of sorts would fix up things a lot easier than how Cathy screwed up her offer. NUNS offers injustice that's senseless and substantially more dangerous, plus while Alto doesn't know the details, it probably hasn't escaped his attention that NUNS failed to stop the Vajra while SMS apparently did....

Plus now that he's flown a VF-25 in combat, how likely is he to want to go "down" to a VF-171? I thought it was pretty interesting that Ozma asked him about how it was to fly it ... and how Alto doesn't answer. Alto wants to fly for a purpose, I suspect, not just fly a hot plane per se. Especially after what he's seen and experienced, what it means to be a combat pilot is starkly real to him, and he wants to do the right thing for the right reasons.

[...] But yeah - I guess it's more realistic that if a circus acrobat asked to pilot a combat fighter during an alien invasion he would probably get punched in the nose.

Problem is, he's now WAY past being a "circus acrobat", e.g. he's got infinitely more combat experience than his classmates. He does need in-type training for the special features of the VF-25, combat group flying plus learning about the members of whatever group he ends up in.

Note the mutual communications screwup on Ozma and Alto's part when they first talk: Ozma should have asked "Where's the pilot who was in your Valkyrie?" and Alto should have realized what Ozma was asking, but the pressure of the situation makes this OK, especially since it wasn't at that moment an important thing. In fact, I take quite a few points off of Ozma for asking that once he realized Ranka was right there; fortunately Ozma got into the groove and they got in sync in short order.

Alto can't responsibly go into combat until he learns the above, but that's not what Ozma said let alone did. But I suspect Ozma will reconsider, say once they have Gilliam's VF-25 fixed but have no better pilot for it.

[ You don't want Frontier to win the Macross 7 "8 episodes of mystery monster attacks" award . ]

I like shows either way, mysterious enemies or ones we know well from the start. I haven't watched Zero yet, and couldn't force myself to watch very much of 7, so this is a nice change of pace from SDFM/DYRL, and the lower episode budget (compared to 7) forced by today's economics suggest we'll find out soon enough.

I really like the slow and subtle exposition on the Vajra we're getting.

One of my questions is just how much does anyone know about them? Frontier going into harm's way does not seem to be a surprise at all, yet everyone is at a near total loss in dealing with them.

Ozma realizes this no later than the Itano circus inside the city, but I wonder if he did before, especially since he and Gilliam were able to take out some yellows and hadn't really had a chance to fail with the reds. If the only way to deal with the reds is a CQB knife to the body or the "Ranka Defense", this is going to get very messy.

Hmmm, you know, that could be an explanation for Mikhail's sniper rifle: at short range, the way police vs. military snipers tend to work, maybe he'll be able to shoot around their outer arm/leg/whatever armor and get a hit on the vitals. The reds are very adverse to coming under fire and always position their armor between it and their body.

And speaking of tropes, congratulations to Alto for thinking things through in combat and successfully pulling off a Wronski Feint thanks to the GERWALK mode's leg thrusters; it was indeed nice to see a lot of that mode used. Too bad the yellow was tough enough to fly through N-3 or so stories of the skyscraper, but it was worth a try, and this made that sequence mecha porn to a purpose .

Congrats to the crew on this one!

Indeed; I haven't felt like this since watching the original (as Robotech) or DYRL; "Macross is back".

- Harold

Edited April 20, 2008 by hga

[VFTF1]

There's a story of a Prussian officer who was sacked after an exercise where he let an allied unit get "destroyed" because he was following orders to stay put.

Well - you bring up an interesting point.

I am not surprised about the Prussian Officer being sacked due to following orders rather than showing initiative.

Prussian Military culture was built around the fact that a famous Prussian General was victorious precisely by not following orders, taking the initiative based on his own view of the situation.

However, remember that General DeGaulle faulted this very military culture - initiative over discipline - for the Germans' utter failur in World War I. DeGaulle (writing in his "The Enemies' House Divided" while a prisoner of war), noted that German officers were vying for big, romantic victories mirroring the "initiative" shown by their precursor - and that it was so ingrained in their military culture that it made the officers take unnecessary risks in vein attempts to conform to the traditions of Prussiam Military innovation over discipline.

The point here is that Chuui is not completely to be faulted for being a bitch here.

Crap - the fact that I'm making this argument means I'm probably going to start falling in love with her too

VFTF1

Edited April 17, 2008 by VFTF1

[hga]

Note: might as well discuss things as of episode 2 now, I strongly suspect 3 is going to have enough critical dialog it's going require subs for most of us....

[...]

Prussian Military culture was built around the fact that a famous Prussian General was victorious precisely by not following orders, taking the initiative based on his own view of the situation.

However, remember that General DeGaulle faulted this very military culture - initiative over discipline - for the Germans' utter failure in World War I. DeGaulle (writing in his "The Enemies' House Divided" while a prisoner of war), noted that German officers were vying for big, romantic victories mirroring the "initiative" shown by their precursor - and that it was so ingrained in their military culture that it made the officers take unnecessary risks in vein attempts to conform to the traditions of Prussian Military innovation over discipline.

Hmmm, I've not studied WWI history to that level. My understanding is that the Germans did not suffer an "utter failure". E.g. they came very close to taking Paris in the initial thrust, they had logistics problems and panicked about the Russian attack and shifted too much there, and after the stalemate period began, when the French army went essentially into mutiny the Germans worked out a system based on small unit individual action and necessarily initiative and were winning ... and then we Americans threw so much mass into the war it was game over, sue for peace.

BTW, how strongly do you recommend The Enemies' House Divided? I must confess my impression of De Gaulle is not at all high: most of that is from biased and second hand info, although it's strongly colored by the one thing I really admire LBJ for. He ordered his diplomat on the point to reply to De Gaulle's demand that America totally withdraw its soldiers from France with a simple question, "Does that include the ones buried in the cemeteries?" De Gualle could not muster an answer.

However, WWII at the individual and small unit level does not to my knowledge and much greater level of study strongly argue your point.

But this is also a matter of degree and scope. We're talking about an individual making a snap decision that wasn't disobeying an order (only we presume a general law that you don't grab military hardware, which is not operative in combat with a man down), not a general trying to make "big, romantic victories" and ignoring the plan. That VF-25 would have likely been destroyed in place and he and Ranka killed if he hadn't done that.

(Come to think of it, Cathy's threat was MUCH worse than I realized. This is written for a Japanese audience, and they live in a police state where prosecution equals conviction. Her real offer was "we'll throw you in prison if you don't enlist". That has implications if she pushes Alto on this....)

My point is entirely at the level of individual and small unit initiative. I.e. it's the general's job to get the units in the right places (hmmm, they rather messed that up at the end of episode 2...) while it's the small unit leaders and their men who are then responsible for doing the right thing.

And Alto did the right thing, as she implicitly acknowledges with her offer immediately after.

The point here is that Chuui is not completely to be faulted for being a bitch here.

Crap - the fact that I'm making this argument means I'm probably going to start falling in love with her too

Well, I'm in no danger of that! Misa yes (given time and character development), Ranka, yes, Cathy, no way as of yet, not even any sign.

Doesn't her official character description ding her for inflexibility? That's ... not a small thing to say, especially in "anime combat" shows (albeit Macross gets a lot of this more right than most any other anime franchise).

- Harold

[VFTF1]

BTW, how strongly do you recommend The Enemies' House Divided?

It is tightly argued and well written, so I do. It is especially rewarding insofar as DeGaulle focuses very heavily on the weakness of the German civilian government in resisting the military, and generally paints a picture of - as the title suggests - a house divided against itself...

As to the notion of prosecution equaling conviction - I think what you mean is the idea that the accused must prove his innocence rather than the accuser proving someone guilty.

I agree with your chategorization of this as out of a "police state" - and in continental Europe it's pretty much the same and it totally sucks. In theory, it allows the state to accuse anyone of anything - and then the burden is on YOU to prove your innocence. In theory, you could be walking down the street and get arrested and hear that "you're under arrest for murder!" and when you ask "where's the proof?" they say "you prove to us that you didn't do it!"

But strangely enough - most of the world seems to function on this totally upsidedown system.

Thankfully - I think that the ethos of Basara and Minmey are a much stronger "common law" amongst the Macross universe than any military fiat or dictate. In fact, one of the strengths of the show is that in spite of constant war and regimentation - the civilians and the civilian way of life and culture and individuality are the greatest "weapons" mankind has.

Misa Hayase makes this point to Hikaru in SDF M TV overa cup of tea - and it is a very wise point that th Macross saga makes to us

VFTF1

[hga]

[ De Gaulle's book recommendation; thanks! ]

As to the notion of prosecution equaling conviction - I think what you mean is the idea that the accused must prove his innocence rather than the accuser proving someone guilty.

I agree with your categorization of this as out of a "police state" - and in continental Europe it's pretty much the same and it totally sucks....

Do you have continental Europe statistics?

The combined "confession" and conviction rate in Japan was 99.96% as of a decade ago, 85% are "confessions", and judges who don't convict don't get promoted.

So what you suggest is not what I mean: in Japan, if the police decide "you're it", it's all over with extremely rare exceptions. So I suspect this is intended for its audience to be an offer Alto can't refuse, and, whoa, if Ozma springs him from that mess, it's another reason for him to choose SMS. Alto does not strike me as a man you should threaten.

Thankfully - I think that the ethos of Basara and Minmey are a much stronger "common law" amongst the Macross universe than any military fiat or dictate. In fact, one of the strengths of the show is that in spite of constant war and regimentation - the civilians and the civilian way of life and culture and individuality are the greatest "weapons" mankind has.

And the Macross military do really care about the civilians; they aren't taking 10 million of them into harm's way expecting to lose. Then again, they know in their bones they live in a dangerous galaxy, no option is "safe".

Misa Hayase makes this point to Hikaru in SDF M TV over a cup of tea - and it is a very wise point that th Macross saga makes to us

Indeed. Although line military stupidity and their politics was also a strong theme---well, at least up to the time they were annihilated in SDFM TV---and I wonder what the audience will be thinking about the tension between NUNS and SMS....

NUNS would seem to have gotten complacent, they got comprehensively blitzed, I doubt a single escort vessel on the attacked side of the fleet survived and I really wonder how many pilots and VF-171s they have left. At the very least, someone seems to know only SMS has a chance against the Vajra as of now.

- Harold

Edited April 18, 2008 by hga

[wolfx]

This might be nothing at all....where was Mickhail when he was sniping the hammerheads pursuing Alto? He seemed to have landed on ground level but from the targetting reticle it would seem as if Mickhail was either on a very high building or on a very very tall hill.

Later when Mickhail snipes the final hammerhead and saves Alto+Ranka, it would seem he's still in the original position but from the cockpit view you can see the street lights....meaning he's on street level.

Animation/directorial error perhaps? Or nothing at all?

[Kelsain]

This might be nothing at all....where was Mickhail when he was sniping the hammerheads pursuing Alto? He seemed to have landed on ground level but from the targetting reticle it would seem as if Mickhail was either on a very high building or on a very very tall hill.

Later when Mickhail snipes the final hammerhead and saves Alto+Ranka, it would seem he's still in the original position but from the cockpit view you can see the street lights....meaning he's on street level.

Animation/directorial error perhaps? Or nothing at all?

There was a large hill shown in the wide shot of Alto standing on top of the concert hall, so Mikhail probably landed there (being a good vantage point for a sniper). He was among buildings, though, which imply that there are streets on the hill too. Also, several minutes passed between sniper fire, so Mikhail may have moved down the hill to get a clearer shot (Big red & the other Vajra were all dead at that point, so he'd be clear).

[ieh4f]

Great. 704x396 doesn't run choppy like the other version does.

does anyone where l can download a 704x396 version of ep. 2?

[dreamweaver13]

First dibs on calling this episode AWESOME!!!!

what? this thread is already on page 32? ....

they actually aired episode 3 already....

oh....

okey so i'm a wee bit late watching ep2 and reacting. haha.

absolutely great episode for a macross fan. Macross if going back to its roots. and i LOVE it!!

oh and that valkyrie rescue of ranka lee by alto is the best frackin fan service i've seen in years!

[ron5864]

That was an excellent episode. Ozma is a bit more blunt than Roy; nevertheless, he seems to be an excellent character. Alto, like Hikaru, was in shock after the first encounter and threw up after seeing all the violence and destruction. It has a lot of the original SDF Macross feel to it and I hope the coming episodes are like these first two.

It's funny that Ozma was playing Basara's song in his car.

[grss1982]

Hey could anybody get a higher quality screenshot of this:

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Macr...0Large%2023.jpg

I had an interesting talk with a poster over at animesuki.com who said that it could be possible that the the picture of the threesome is Ozma, Gilliam and a young Cathy Glass. Its seem intriguing.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

Hey could anybody get a higher quality screenshot of this:

http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Macr...0Large%2023.jpg

I had an interesting talk with a poster over at animesuki.com who said that it could be possible that the the picture of the threesome is Ozma, Gilliam and a young Cathy Glass. Its seem intriguing.

That VF is the pic looks a lot like a 25. It couldn't be a "young" Gilliam/Cathy thing if that's the case.

[MisaForever]

That VF is the pic looks a lot like a 25. It couldn't be a "young" Gilliam/Cathy thing if that's the case.

Sorry man but I really don't think you can tell the exact type of VF by looking at that pic.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

Sorry man but I really don't think you can tell the exact type of VF by looking at that pic.

Well, I'm positive it's not a VF-1, VF-17/117 or VF-21/22.

That leaves less options

[MisaForever]

Well, I'm positive it's not a VF-1, VF-17/117 or VF-21/22.

That leaves less options

Ok point taken

[Sorata]

[AonE-Gekkostate-Menclave]_Macross_F_-_02_[1280x720_H.264_AAC]_[bD0BEDA3].mkv now available

EDIT SPOILER OF EP 3 Answers the picture you posted above

its of Gilliam and family and or family friends, the girl can be seen attending his funeral along with the guy. And yes from the pic it is a VF-25

Edited April 25, 2008 by Sorata