Macross Fleet Movements

[Gubaba]

Yeah because after 50 years they can obviously develop ways to break the rules of physics.

So the laws of physics state that any kind of barrier more effective than the PPB is impossible...?

.........And if its Broke dont fix it..(PPB )

Wait...are you agreeing with me, or did you mean "if it AIN'T broke, don't fix it"...? I'm so confused...

[Mr March]

I think you know what he meant Gubaba. The technologies of Macross have been established and they're not likely to go through some incredible concept-altering metamorphosis in just 50 years. Miniaturization, sure; but I'd hope they avoid technobabble as much as possible. I also don't think Macross is the kind of franchise that's about the latest tachyon particles, nano-technology, or other theoretical buzz words of the moment ripped from the headlines of Scientific American or Popular Mechanics. I'm fine with the barrier systems remaining one-way energy shields and not some multi-phase, uber-particle, kick-your-butt-new-tech that's used to defeat the space anomaly-of-the-week

[Radd]

I think the discussion hits a wall when it's pointed out that the barrier was two-way, and tends to explode when hit with too much. So, they wouldn't be able to counter attack, and they'd risk blowing up friendly ships with their own shields. So, even if they did make the barrier more power consumption friendly (or just made more powerful generators to make power not an issue, those problems would still make it a poor choice for fleet engagements. A single ship on the run? Sure. Multiple ships on both sides in an active battle? Not so good.

Now, arguing they should have leaped beyond into some entirely new shield system is kinda baseless. There's no reason to assume they'd make that kind of technological leaps, when the PPB itself was originally a fluke. That they're able to miniaturize it to fit on a Valkyrie, and fit multiple PPB systems on a single ship shows that they have been making some progress with it, but given the two basic flaws with the omnidirectional barrier there's just no reason to assume that it would take over for the PPB exclusively, or even primarily.

[Radd]

Also, who's to say the PPB is still controlled by 3 overcaffinated girls who honed their Centipede skills down to an art form? For all we know the system is a lot more automated, and a lot more accurate now.

[Gubaba]

All good points (PINPOINTS!! Ha! A witty person is me!), but I'm still not convinced. I'm not sure why it's an either/or here...either it's the pinpoint barrier (which, circa 2009-10, was only partially effective) or the omnidirectional barrier (ditto).

But, as Radd pointed out, perhaps the PPB has been tremendously improved in the last fifty years. You would think, though, that that would be enough time for some third option to be developed. I'm not talking about nanotechnology, tachyon particles, plasma warp fields, cosmic power deflector grids, or any other kind of babble you could come up with...I'm just saying there's got to be a better answer, and I thought they would have figured one out by now.

But, they haven't...and I guess I should be grateful. If the Vajra had no chance of getting into the Macross 25, we wouldn't have a story for the new series.

I think you know what he meant Gubaba.

Um, actually, I thought I did at first, and then realized that I didn't.

If I had, I wouldn't have asked.

[Radd]

Well, from what we've seen, humans are the only ones to develop any sort of force field, period. If I recall correctly, not even the Protodevlin had force fields of any kind, despite taking over a human colony fleet and their technology.

It sounds like you're suggesting is that in this time Earth should have developed an entirely new form of force field. While it's entirely possible that could be written in at some point, there's not much of a basis to lead us to assume this is a logical step with the given time frame.

Personally, in addition to all that, I like the limited and flawed role of force fields in Macross, it's pretty much the only thing like it I can recall in popular sci-fi. Most everyone else either has no forcefields, or they go the Star Trek route.

[Duke Togo]

Up until the ASS-1 crashed, Earth was hundreds, if not thousands of years behind technologically from the Protoculture. I think we can cut them a little slack for not having developed a total force field in the 60 years since they moved from the combustion engine to OTEC fold drives.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Duke Togo

[Gubaba]

Okay...I'm still not COMPLETELY convinced, but I can now accept PPBs in 2059 without TOO much eye-rolling...

But if they're STILL using them in "Macross 3000" or whatever, I'll be annoyed again.

[sketchley]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the use of PPBs. Force fields are gimmick with how much grounding in reality? In some ways, PPBs are just a limited variation of that gimmick (you know - the hero invincibility field. "Hey tawny. Stand behind me. I'll protect you, as I can't die!)

[Noyhauser]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the use of PPBs. Force fields are gimmick with how much grounding in reality? In some ways, PPBs are just a limited variation of that gimmick (you know - the hero invincibility field. "Hey tawny. Stand behind me. I'll protect you, as I can't die!)

I think its a more realistic implementation of a gimmick, which is why I think gubaba's persistent comments just strike me as illogical fanboyism. There is no way one could argue that an theoretical Omni directional implementation wouldn't take alot of energy than a PPB implementation. Why would you want to expend energy to cover a whole ship when you would normally only face a threat from one facing. Its a waste of energy, which could be better used for other purposes like weapons.They already have a omnidirectional field, and yet they still use PPB 50 years later. And even if they made a better type of shield its still the same question; why would you spread its energy over a wide area rather than focus it on the axis where you face the greatest likelihood of damage? No matter how you cut it, it just makes no sense to have a omni directional barrier.

[Gubaba]

I think its a more realistic implementation of a gimmick, which is why I think gubaba's persistent comments just strike me as illogical fanboyism. There is no way one could argue that an theoretical Omni directional implementation wouldn't take alot of energy than a PPB implementation. Why would you want to expend energy to cover a whole ship when you would normally only face a threat from one facing. Its a waste of energy, which could be better used for other purposes like weapons.They already have a omnidirectional field, and yet they still use PPB 50 years later. And even if they made a better type of shield its still the same question; why would you spread its energy over a wide area rather than focus it on the axis where you face the greatest likelihood of damage? No matter how you cut it, it just makes no sense to have a omni directional barrier.

"Illogical fanboyism"...? What am I a fanboy of? What what is illogical about thinking that technology would prgress, given a fifty-year time frame?

And anyway, as I said, I've more or less seen the light, so why start name-calling now?

[Mr March]

Ahem, concentrating on the discussion at hand here...

The way I look at it, any fictional technology (if it's going to be presented as even remotely believable or consistent) should act in a manner similar to real world technology. For example, we've had guns for several hundred years now but in all our many improvements of the technology we still can't fire a bullet in two different directions at once. It's still ruled by physics and fires one way only. I see the pin-point/full-barrier systems as the same thing, only in a fictional sense. The barrier systems will be miniaturized, developed and improved, but the physics governing their function will stay one-way and won't suddenly change. At least, I hope they don't because that kind of technology metamorphosis would be lame, IMO.

[Gubaba]

I agree! I agree!

Please just stop!!

[JB0]

You also have to remember that they had a real bad memory of using a Omni-barrier system. They system was inverted or overloaded or what ever the case was and well...Kinda whipped Ontario off the map.

This here is the big problem.

The colonization fleets are FLEETS. There's a lot of allies to worry about, and a single ship's barrier overload could be catastrophic for the rest of the fleet.

Though by spec, the New Macross vessels HAVE an omnidirectional barrier. They just don't use it.

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati...ross/index.html under countermeasures.

...

Pity so many of the numbers are sevens. It'd be nice to not have such a significant vessel in the continuity defined in terms of a very large pun.

Ehhh.... I guess this was already dealt with. But I at least get to be the first to point out the ODB is still in use!

+$0.02 anyways.

Edited April 14, 2008 by JB0

[Radd]

I was going to jump in say say, "Ah-hah! Someone beat you too it!", but....I think you're right. I could have sworn someone already pointed out that the ships still have the full barrier should they find a use for it. Maybe I'm thinking of another thread?

[Mr March]

I agree! I agree!

Please just stop!!

My apologies. I didn't mean to come across as brow-beating. Just wanted to keep the discussion on track.

[RichterX]

Also, who's to say the PPB is still controlled by 3 overcaffinated girls who honed their Centipede skills down to an art form? For all we know the system is a lot more automated, and a lot more accurate now.

Now they control the PPB with Wiimotes I thought that the system was upgraded in the Macross to make it automatic after figuring that the whole trackball thing wasn't very efficient.

What i like about Macross is that there i not that much technobabble, the VF's still use missiles and bullets in there guns, and whatever energy weapon they use every now and then, is limited due to overheating, needing to recharge or has some kind of logical drawback.

[Alastar]

This here is the big problem.

The colonization fleets are FLEETS. There's a lot of allies to worry about, and a single ship's barrier overload could be catastrophic for the rest of the fleet.

Though by spec, the New Macross vessels HAVE an omnidirectional barrier. They just don't use it.

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati...ross/index.html under countermeasures.

...

Pity so many of the numbers are sevens. It'd be nice to not have such a significant vessel in the continuity defined in terms of a very large pun.

Ehhh.... I guess this was already dealt with. But I at least get to be the first to point out the ODB is still in use!

+$0.02 anyways.

It says for "Countermeasures: pin-point barrier, total barrier system to short ranges" but could it be for the missile defense system of the NMC-13?

But there is no doubt that they could build one. They have the technology. But U.N.Spacy is a fleet that relies on its Fighters more over their starships fire power. Launching and recovering fighters is around the clock thing. And unless its some star Trek type shield ( which i hope to god they dont use. Or even to think about using) i think the PPB would be more than enough. Automated systems and a manual control would be more effective defense then a full barrier. and would save alot of energy used for other things. I guess Macross is Going Green!

Edited April 14, 2008 by Alastar

[sketchley]

Well, from what we've seen, humans are the only ones to develop any sort of force field, period. If I recall correctly, not even the Protodevlin had force fields of any kind, despite taking over a human colony fleet and their technology.

I think the Varuta (on some of their larger capital ships) had the omni-directional barrier as well - though as a good chunk of their technology stems from the human fleet they took over...

[raymond]

On a side note, can anyone notice how many planets have been colonized already? From what I see, only Eden has been shown. On the top of my head, it seems that the only planets that have humans are Earth, Eden, and that planet with the space whale and people with pointy ears (Zola?). Seems like this whole galactic colonization thing isn't that successful.

[azrael]

On a side note, can anyone notice how many planets have been colonized already? From what I see, only Eden has been shown. On the top of my head, it seems that the only planets that have humans are Earth, Eden, and that planet with the space whale and people with pointy ears (Zola?). Seems like this whole galactic colonization thing isn't that successful.

There are more, but Eden was one of the 1st big settlements in a relative short range from Earth.

[Duke Togo]

Nuke a space whale for Jesus!

Remember in Macross Plus, when Isamu is being threatened with re-assignment, and they go through all of those locations? I assume there are many, many human worlds spread throughout the galaxy by 2059.

[Zinjo]

Someone counted them once, including the worlds presented in the games.

It was around a dozen or so at least by 2050...

[RichterX]

There must be more inhabited planets like the Zolan planet that will interact with the United Government. Probably humanoid due to Protoculture interaction, but certainly I don't want to see the Star Trek take.

Probably due to the effect of the war that occurred in Protoculture Republic most of the planets that could have been inhabited ended like Earth by the end of SDF Macross

Edited April 23, 2008 by RichterX

[Kronnang Dunn]

Well, from what we've seen, humans are the only ones to develop any sort of force field, period. If I recall correctly, not even the Protodevlin had force fields of any kind, despite taking over a human colony fleet and their technology.

It sounds like you're suggesting is that in this time Earth should have developed an entirely new form of force field. While it's entirely possible that could be written in at some point, there's not much of a basis to lead us to assume this is a logical step with the given time frame.

Personally, in addition to all that, I like the limited and flawed role of force fields in Macross, it's pretty much the only thing like it I can recall in popular sci-fi. Most everyone else either has no forcefields, or they go the Star Trek route.

The Protoculture building that appeared in Macross 7 had a force field. Protodeviln could also generate force fields by themselves...

[dreamweaver13]

actually, what's amusing is how frackin fast they put up these colonies! if indeed there are already at least 12 by 2050, that would mean at least 12 new inhabited worlds in just 38 years. 38 years!! that's just a midlife crisis. less than half a standard lifetime, from near annhiliation of the species, to 12 populated words. i'm not even going into how the few humans left could build 2 megaroad colonization ships a year, or where they're even getting all these people to put into these vessels (and they do seem overcrowded). i guess most of it is cloning. and so much space debris as raw materials. but still, these humans sure do spread out really fast, ne? haha.

wait a minute. these are "macross humans" i'm talking about. the same guys who could rebuild an entire city in a span of half an episode. why am i even surprised? hehehe.

Edited April 23, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Renalan]

actually, what's amusing is how frackin fast they put up these colonies! if indeed there are already at least 12 by 2050, that would mean at least 12 new inhabited worlds in just 38 years. 38 years!! that's just a midlife crisis. less than half a standard lifetime, from near annhiliation of the species, to 12 populated words. i'm not even going into how the few humans left could build 2 megaroad colonization ships a year, or where they're even getting all these people to put into these vessels (and they do seem overcrowded). i guess most of it is cloning. and so much space debris as raw materials. but still, these humans sure do spread out really fast, ne? haha.

wait a minute. these are "macross humans" i'm talking about. the same guys who could rebuild an entire city in a span of half an episode. why am i even surprised? hehehe.

Zentradi automated ship-building factory.

[RichterX]

What annoys me is that in Macross they pretty much stated that the factory had so many malfunctions that it would take a lot of time for them to get it functioning properly.

From the end of Macross being, we have barely enough resources to keep us alive, it went to we have more than enough to finish building a new ship, rebuilding the Macross, building a serie of new VFs to acompany the Megaroad and give the colony fleet resources for there travel.

[Zinjo]

actually, what's amusing is how frackin fast they put up these colonies! if indeed there are already at least 12 by 2050, that would mean at least 12 new inhabited worlds in just 38 years. 38 years!! that's just a midlife crisis. less than half a standard lifetime, from near annhiliation of the species, to 12 populated words. i'm not even going into how the few humans left could build 2 megaroad colonization ships a year, or where they're even getting all these people to put into these vessels (and they do seem overcrowded). i guess most of it is cloning. and so much space debris as raw materials. but still, these humans sure do spread out really fast, ne? haha.

wait a minute. these are "macross humans" i'm talking about. the same guys who could rebuild an entire city in a span of half an episode. why am i even surprised? hehehe.

Well that seems to have been "visually" retconned in Frontier as the Factory Satellite in SDFM looks like it was replaced with a shipyard.

Consider this one thing, the colony ships are prefab cities, that once landed provide a home from which the colonists can expand. I suspect the reason the Frontier and Galaxy are so large is that they planned for population expansion over the years, whereas the Megaroads were mainly fixed size urban areas.

I believe that is why the Uraga class ships look like flying boats as they would be used as an instant navy on planet, while the rest of the fleet provided orbital defence.

[Mr March]

IMO, I never worried about manufacturing in the Macross universe. The Factory Satellite basically represents the holy grail of manufacturing. We're talking a factory larger than our moon that's completely automated, requires no skilled personnel to operate and can run for hundreds of thousands of years. The Factory Satellite is quite possibly the most impressive manufacturing facility in all of science fiction.

Even if it took months or longer for the humans to repair the Factory Satellite to even a small fraction of its full potential, the production speed and capability of that facility alone would be orders of magnitude more than even the entire industry of pre-annihilation Earth. After all they popped out the far larger Megaroad-01 in a year compared to what took the entire Earth industry over a decade to accomplish with the much smaller SDF-1. I'm not surprised in the least they can pump out Megaroad and New Macross Class fleets roughly once a year. In fact, roughly one fleet a year actually sounds pretty slow, but it's likely the Factory Satellite is both running at only a fraction of full capability and being used for all kinds of projects simultaneously, not just fleet construction.

Combine this with the fact that post-war industry always booms AND mass cloning became available to repopulate, I'm not surprised the UNG was able to recover so quickly and expand so agressively.

[raymond]

IMO, I never worried about manufacturing in the Macross universe. The Factory Satellite basically represents the holy grail of manufacturing. We're talking a factory larger than our moon that's completely automated, requires no skilled personnel to operate and can run for hundreds of thousands of years. The Factory Satellite is quite possibly the most impressive manufacturing facility in all of science fiction.

Even if it took months or longer for the humans to repair the Factory Satellite to even a small fraction of its full potential, the production speed and capability of that facility alone would be orders of magnitude more than even the entire industry of pre-annihilation Earth. After all they popped out the far larger Megaroad-01 in a year compared to what took the entire Earth industry over a decade to accomplish with the much smaller SDF-1. I'm not surprised in the least they can pump out Megaroad and New Macross Class fleets roughly once a year. In fact, roughly one fleet a year actually sounds pretty slow, but it's likely the Factory Satellite is both running at only a fraction of full capability and being used for all kinds of projects simultaneously, not just fleet construction.

Combine this with the fact that post-war industry always booms AND mass cloning became available to repopulate, I'm not surprised the UNG was able to recover so quickly and expand so agressively.

I agree. The use of the Factory Satellite would definitely explain how earth has been able to rebound so quickly after the devastation caused by the Zentraedi fleet. I'd also add that the cooperation of the Zentraedi would also benefit the further understanding of the overtechnology that was probably not fully understood by humans circa 2009-2012. They'd probably be able to explain all kinds of technological stuff that earth scientists have not been able to deduce from studying the SDF-1.

As for population, I've always thought that with a large portion of the Zentraedi fleet beaten and/or joining up with the UN Spacey, that would add a whole species' worth of people to populate the Megaroad and New Macross ships. I've always felt that if a census were made, UN Spacey-controlled worlds would be populated by Zentraedi as the majority with humans in the minority. Of course this difference will eventually get all thinned out after intermarriages between the two species.

Cloning is also a distinct possibility since thats the way Zentraedis were made though I assume there'd be some kind of taboo against it held by humans in the same way many feel about it today. Of course, given the drastically reduced numbers of humans left at the end of Space War I, maybe this kind of thinking has changed.

[Radd]

The Protoculture building that appeared in Macross 7 had a force field. Protodeviln could also generate force fields by themselves...

You are quite correct. I'm really not certain how I overlooked that. I would suggest that the Protodevlin may have had that power as a part of being Protodevlin, and not as a technology, however that would be pure conjecture on my part.

I thought to suggest that the one piece of Protoculture technology that we see sporting force fields is a ground based installation, however that's not true. The APHOS also showed use of a force field. I suppose they're more prevalent in Macross than I suspected.

[Radd]

Cloning is also a distinct possibility since thats the way Zentraedis were made though I assume there'd be some kind of taboo against it held by humans in the same way many feel about it today. Of course, given the drastically reduced numbers of humans left at the end of Space War I, maybe this kind of thinking has changed.

I'm feeling a bit too lazy to look for an actual reference, but go look on the Macross Compendium (if that section is up yet), I recall it stating specifically that there was a large scale cloning of the human race in order to beef up the population. I would not be surprised that, when faced with extinction, the human race would almost (if not quite) universally lose their misgivings on cloning.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Radd

[Mr March]

Indeed it was. As Radd has mentioned, mass cloning was indeed used although it only lasted for about 18 years before they ran into trouble. Here's the Macross Compendium entry:

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/2030

December

Because of the increase in hereditary children's diseases due to the overuse of cloning, mass cloning is terminated.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Mr March

[Duke Togo]

Well that seems to have been "visually" retconned in Frontier as the Factory Satellite in SDFM looks like it was replaced with a shipyard.

I don't recall seeing a shipyard in Frontier, but the Megaroad-01 was built (atleast partially) on the moon.