Relations to Previous Series Characters....

[Mr March]

Yes I have and it's called reading too much into it. Ever wonder why people say it's fate/karma/god's will whenever a terrible disaster hits but when incredible good fortune arrives it's always dismissed as chance/random/luck? For every one connection that people think they see in ordinarily random events, there are a million others that happen right under their nose while they remain completely unawares. Connectivity is overstated, even more so in modern fiction because it's a far too often used trend. It diminishes the dramatic value of fiction by turning the diversity of the unknown into a formulaic, predictable occurrence where nothing in the Macross universe can happen unless a relative of the original cast is somehow involved.

I am bothered by these silly character connections and I don't want them to appear again. So far it seems like Macross Frontier is going it's own way and I hope it stays that way. Homages are fine. Direct lineages are not. Might as well start writing evil twin and time travel stories in Macross.

[Gubaba]

I think it's time to restate my earlier theory that Sheryl is not a decendent of Mao...Shin and Sara, after getting whisked into space, were thrust forward in time and metamorphosed, 2001-style, into a perfect, hermaphroditic being, which then called itself "Sheryl."

And until we get a crotch shot of Sheryl that proves she DOESN'T have testicles, I will continue to cling to this theory.

[VFTF1]

I generally agree with Mr. March's sentiments, but in the particular - things fall apart.

1. Roy's character was fleshed out thanks to his appearance in Zero. We gain some more insight into why he joined the war effort; we see that he has a knack for taking young boys under his wing and we see that prior to Claudia, he had a girl who knew him from his much younger days - and more importantly, that Roy was not able to save the ones he loved...always.

In fact - we get a much better feal for Roy as a person than we do in SDFM where he starts out fairly prominent but after Hikaru finally joins the military (episode 6 I think), Roy suddenly becomes someone who is mentioned often, whose presence is felt, but who doesn't really get explored because his character seems set - finished - there is no arc - he's just Sempai Major Fokker the ace pilot womanizer who does nice things for his friends when they are in need. Then Roy dies. SDF M basically shows him as a fully fleshed out established elder character who serves to guide the development of others and to illustrate that war takes the best people away from us.

In Zero, however, Roy gets a lot more screen time and a lot more personal. Sure - having him there might have initially resulted from a desire to please the fans but a) why is it bad to want to please the fans? and b) it could have been handled much, much much worse. As things stand, they did a really good job with it.

2) All people are related to the protoculture; and the power of song is something that all people are capable of generating. Minmey was - and Exedol even CALLED it "the power of song" which is "undeniable." I think it stems from passion and love and all that is spiritual in humanity; and I don't consider it to be a mere matter of DNA/blood line.

Think about it this way: To what extent was it important that Sara Nome never lived in a technological modern city? O rather - to what extent does civilization and culture ritually kill itself by moving away from nature? You see - the irony of Zero is that it shows that there is a difference between culture and mere entertainment; and Sara Nome tries to nurture and protect a beautiful culture from what she considers to be "mere" entertainment; the polutants of city life.

This really puts a wrench into things; because in SDF M, it is city life and the culture of cities that turns the Zendradi; and Minmey's songs are pop songs that fit perfectly with the somewhat shallow albeit amiable life of cities.

Sara Nome's songs are not vapid, they are not shallow - they are, if anything - very high minded and spirited. Hers is a demonstration of a different, more high minded aspect of human culture - it is for humanity what Macross City was for the Zendradi.

Just as Minmey and the culture of Macross shocked the Zendradi out of their war-stuppoer - so Sara Nome and her anti-technological spiritualist naturalism shocked the warrior SHIN out of his stuppor and made Shin a believer.

If Sara Nome had lived in a city; I am pretty sure that despite her DNA and protoculture blood lineage - she would have accomplished nothing - not even the Birdman would be looking for her.... Bloodline and DNA are, in my view, tantamount to saying that predispositions or potential exists.

Actualization of that potential is a manner of will and circumstance. Sara was in the proper setting, had the proper upbringing and was sensitive and willing to embrace the spiritualism of her island religion with a passion that made rocks float and soldiers doubt in war (Shin deciding to jetison all his weapons in the end is the equivalent of Breetai deciding to die with the Macross in the confrontation with Boldoza).

My point with regard to character relations?

Only this: Sara and Sheryl can certainly be related - but whether the potential of the protoculture bloodline plays out similarly or not is not a foregone conclusion - in fact, I would expect that given Sheryl's latex and her elitism - she seems to be completely de-sensitized and if there was ever any protocultural purity in her blood it has been distilled if not completely destroyed by her professional life... kind of like what happened to Mune...

VFTF1

[Sorata]

Did anyone think Sheryl's actions may be not because of an attitude but because she knows (or has an idea of something going on) that the other characters in series dont know yet? For example lets say a ewounded dog appears and I care for it you would view me in good light based on me treating the dog with care and now lets say I have knowledge that a injured dog has rabies which you dont have so instead of treating the dog I simply walk into my hoouse get a gun and return and shhot the dog in the head without batting an eye. You would view me as cold and cruel but in reality I was doing the dog and others a favor and was steeling my heart for what had to be done. But then again i think this probably isnt the case and like has been said her character will get fleshed out and we will learn why she acts this way if its an attitude problem on her part or if it is due to how she is treated in a way we dont know yet that she acts that way.

[mikeszekely]

It's too much a stretch. It reduces the entire human race to happenstance of a single gene pool and that's simply not the way it works. The events of each Macross sequel might as well have taken place in Tibet for all the connection they have between each other. Kawamori and Co. even admit that including Max/Milia in Macross 7 and Roy in M0 was for purposes of fan service only. It feels forced each time they do it and it makes for bad fiction. Roy had no character arch worth his inclusion in Zero and Max/Milia looking like they were still in their 20s was ridiculous. I'd really prefer it if they stop doing that and concentrate on new characters. Just my opinion.

I'll grant you that Roy didn't need to be in Zero. I'll grant you that Max and Milia should have looked older in 7. But was it really unbelievable that Max climbed the ranks to captain of a New Macross-class ship? I don't think it makes the universe any smaller just because they decided to focus on a captain we knew instead of one of the many we didn't. As for Sheryl, is it impossible that Sara or Mao had descendants? Not to say that Sheryl is or isn't, but if they are, what's wrong with a plot relating to that bloodline? Would such a bloodline make the universe seem smaller, or would it be a reason to focus on Shery's character?

To my way of thinking, yeah, characters like Aegis running around with tenuous connections at best are unnecessary and perhaps do cheapen the franchise. But stories dealing with descendants of other characters for a reason are just continuity.

In any case, don't forget that in Macross, the gene pool was significantly reduced. If the numbering system for Zentradi in DYRL is even remotely canon, and the "Protoculture cloning techniques" used to rebuild the population after Space War 1 are anything like the Zentradi's, it's not hard to imaging a gene pool of fewer people with more blood relations.

[Mr March]

Max being captain is totally irrelevant to the point I made. It's the fact of his inclusion, not his position; his appearance/age only made it worse. And yes, the character relations do make the Macross universe feel small and more pointedly contrived. As I stated above, it becomes this silly bubble where nothing notable in the Macross universe occurs unless an cast relation is somehow involved.

As for mass cloning, that practice was not as widespread as first intentioned due to hereditary disease and the population was a generation removed from the end of cloning by the time Macross 7 took place. Clones are also never seen in Macross, aside from rogue Zentradi. Now in 2059, genetic diversity would ensure relations would be just as rare as any other population. It's also important to account for the introduction into the gene pool of hundreds of thousands of Zentradi, perhaps millions of Meltrandi and species such as the Zolans. Besides, we know this explanation would be a crutch at best; Kawamori and Co. have stated before their motives for including past characters and it wasn't for cloning continuity purposes.

[Gubaba]

I liked seeing Max and Millia (and Exsedol) in 7 and Focker in Zero, but I do agree that the rarer that kind of thing is, the better. I certainly don't want to see the Macross Frontier fleet come across the Megaroad-01 but get attacked by the Marduk, only to be rescued by a search team headed by Gamlin and Ismau...not that I think that will happen.

I think one of the important things to recognize about MF is that it's on television, and as such, can't be narrowly aimed at only the Macross fanatics, but has to draw in a new crowd as well. Sure, they can throw us some fan service in the form of Sheryl shouting "Atashi no uta o kike!" or Alto's VF-25 being the spittin' image of Hikaru's VF-1D, but they certainly can't expect the audience to have a every moment in Macross history memorized.

Look at U.C. Gundam...Zeta and Double Zeta had some recurring characters from other series, but the focus was always on a new batch. (Even then, the amount of Gundamology one had to know to watch any new series was so daunting that they came up with the AU stuff to start over from scratch.) Max and Millia remain mostly in the background in 7, while Fire Bomber struts its stuff. We may come across more "echoes" of previous events, and a couple of familiar names and looks may turn up (not to mention voice actors and actresses), but recurring characters from previous series? I don't see it happening...unless the ending of Zero was left open specifically to tie it up here, but I kind of doubt that.

All that said, we've only seen the first episode, so I suppose anything can happen between now and whenever it ends. But I'd be willing to place a (small) bet that it won't.

[mikeszekely]

Max being captain is totally irrelevant to the point I made. It's the fact of his inclusion, not his position; his appearance/age only made it worse. And yes, the character relations do make the Macross universe feel small and more pointedly contrived. As I stated above, it becomes this silly bubble where nothing notable in the Macross universe occurs unless an cast relation is somehow involved.

I guess I'm just thinking about it in a different way. You're, in your own words, taking it as nothing notable in the Macross universe occurring without a cast relation. I figure that stuff probably happens all the time in the Macross universe, and the stories being told focus on cast relations for the sake of continuity. Just about every character in Macross was either military or connected with someone who was, it'd make sense that they'd have relatives in the thick of things too. I've already granted you that Roy didn't need to be in Zero and Aegis didn't have to be a Focker, but you can't expect that EVERY relative of EVERY character lived simple mundane lives either.

[Mr March]

That's just it; there is no connection. Macross isn't the adventures of the Belmonts. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Macross Plus worked brilliantly without such lame character connections. Not saying Macross Plus was as good as it was because of the fact; after all, Macross Zero wouldn't have been greatly improved with Focker gone. But that's beside the point. I can very much expect never to see characters from previous Macross productions again. In fact, I shouldn't. Each story is clearly distinct in both time and setting, such that past characters should realistically be far removed, retired or dead. Of course "stuff" happens all the time, but the Macross animes are obviously focused on the major events; otherwise, why bother?

I will grant that in our day and age, it's almost taken for granted that fiction will seek to pat itself on the back with ridiculous character connections that would rarely if ever happen in real life. Such is life and fans have been saturated with it to the point it's almost expected. Mores the pity, I say. I prefer not to see these character connections and hope Macross Frontier goes it's own way.

[Gubaba]

I will grant that in our day and age, it's almost taken for granted that fiction will seek to pat itself on the back with ridiculous character connections that would rarely if ever happen in real life.

OUR day and age? Ye gads, have you read a Victorian novel recently? Or Shakespeare? Or the Bible? Or Greek mythology? Or Norse mythology? Or even Sumerian mythology? Coincidental character meetings and dubious connections are as old as storytelling itself!

Or if I'm misunderstanding your post, please elaborate...

[Mr March]

OUR day and age? Ye gads, have you read a Victorian novel recently? Or Shakespeare? Or the Bible? Or Greek mythology? Or Norse mythology? Or even Sumerian mythology? Coincidental character meetings and dubious connections are as old as storytelling itself!

Or if I'm misunderstanding your post, please elaborate...

Ye gads, have we lost all perspective on this debate? Try using an example that isn't intentionally integrated (and written taking into consideration the size and breadth of communities in those long past ages). Better still, let's maintain focus on more recent history; you know, the kind that relevant to that actual discussion.

[mikeszekely]

That's just it; there is no connection. Macross isn't the adventures of the Belmonts. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Macross Plus worked brilliantly without such lame character connections. Not saying Macross Plus was as good as it was because of the fact; after all, Macross Zero wouldn't have been greatly improved with Focker gone. But that's beside the point. I can very much expect never to see characters from previous Macross productions again. In fact, I shouldn't. Each story is clearly distinct in both time and setting, such that past characters should realistically be far removed, retired or dead. Of course "stuff" happens all the time, but the Macross animes are obviously focused on the major events; otherwise, why bother?

I will grant that in our day and age, it's almost taken for granted that fiction will seek to pat itself on the back with ridiculous character connections that would rarely if ever happen in real life. Such is life and fans have been saturated with it to the point it's almost expected. Mores the pity, I say. I prefer not to see these character connections and hope Macross Frontier goes it's own way.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinions and feelings. I guess I just don't feel as strongly about it as you do.

That said, if Sheryl is related to Sara and Mao, it's very likely that their unique bloodline could turn out to be a plot point, and if that's the case, it'd be good reason to include a relation. Hopefully that'll bother you less than random name dropping.

Of course, there's still the possibility that it IS just random name dropping. That'd bug me.

[Mr March]

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinions and feelings. I guess I just don't feel as strongly about it as you do.

That's pretty much all it is

Edited April 6, 2008 by Mr March

[Gubaba]

Ye gads, have we lost all perspective on this debate? Try using an example that isn't intentionally integrated (and written taking into consideration the size and breadth of communities in those long past ages). Better still, let's maintain focus on more recent history; you know, the kind that relevant to that actual discussion.

So...does that mean you're NOT interested in reading my thesis on the influence that Anthony Trollope's Barsetshire Novels had on the works of Kawamori...?

[Mr March]

LOL

[lord_breetai]

but that's just it... why does simply having a related character show up make it convoluted or unrealistic. In history you have many examples of great soldiers who are related to other great soldiers or warriors and so on. I'm not saying I expect there to be relatives or that there should be, or that they should play a major role... I just see nothing wrong with it one way or another, because they have to be out there somewhere. Like if there was a minor character who was a Lovelock, then whatever, doesn't matter one way or another.

[Sergorn]

Yes. Sheryl clearly didn't care or show any empathy for the safety of her fans. Whereas Minmey bravely stayed and sang during a Zendradi attack (albeit at Kaifun's prompting, but what counts is that she didn't ignore him) and Basara actually went out to the enemy to sing - Sheryl acts like a typical phony manufactured celebrity and runs away as soon as things get dangerous.

I'm not quite sure about that. It seemed to me Sheryl actually wanted to continue singing even with the alert, but that this Major (?) Glass pretty much forced here out. Sure she appears quite cold to Alto after that, but it's to early to make a judgement call about her I'd say.

-Sergorn

[VFTF1]

I don't think Sheryl wanted to continue singing - I think she was angry that the military would dare sound an alarm during HER concert. "Uh! The nerve of them!" - that kind of thing. Then she was cluless about what to do - because she's a scripted celeb with no spontaneous artistic talent - so when something doesn't go according to script - she just stands there and doesn't know what to do until the Major pulls her away.

The only thing that will redeem Sheryl is if she shaves her head and goes to a rehab center after marrying one of Alto's friends and having a baby with him only to get a divorce and go partying with a hotel hieress later.

If that happens - I'll have more sympathy for Sheryl.

VFTF1

[Mr March]

but that's just it... why does simply having a related character show up make it convoluted or unrealistic. In history you have many examples of great soldiers who are related to other great soldiers or warriors and so on. I'm not saying I expect there to be relatives or that there should be, or that they should play a major role... I just see nothing wrong with it one way or another, because they have to be out there somewhere. Like if there was a minor character who was a Lovelock, then whatever, doesn't matter one way or another.

I think that horse is dead and beaten, lb

Edited April 6, 2008 by Mr March

[VFTF1]

!!!SPOILER!!!

Sheryle Nome's father is DARTH VADER!!!

Luke Skywalker II (the second, son of Luke Skywalker Jr) shows up to tell Sheryl that Darth Vader fathered her with a Meldrani Quid Rau pilot in an alternative universe that said Quid Rau pilot had accidentally been sucked into due to malfunctioning fold boosters (prototypes fold boosters stolen from Edwards Airbase on Eden in 2040) - the Quid Rau pilot managed to return to her own universe shortly after encountering the sith lord. As to the precise nature of their intimate encounter, it is known that the Quid Rau pilot happened to be Exedol's "cousin" (aka grown from the same gene pool) and therefore super smart. She carried a customized miniaturization device because she liked studying Miclones. She miniaturized herself and met Vader, who was anguishing over his sexual organs having been carred beyond recognition on the moon of Mustafar, and the Quid Rau pilot offered to help him regrow the organs - then she tested them before re-adjusting the prototype stolen fold boosters to return to her own universe. Upon returning, she found that she was pregnant with a baby girl - and that although she returned in her own universe, the timing was a tad bit to the future.

And now: the big news about this Quid Rau pilot: MIRYA! Yes - she divorced Max and went solo/rogue! (This was before Macross 7) - but eventually after having an inter-dimmensional affair with Darth Vader, she had a change of heart and "returned" to her husband - albeit they maintained a pretty cold relationship (thus their distance to one another in Macross 7).

As to the name Nome - Mirya named her secret daughter Sheryl Nome because she had read about the Birdman in the UN Spacey Archives when they were declassified to reveal this event. mirya was very moved by the Nome girls and decided it was a noble name for her secret daughter to have.

I will grant that this episode COMPLETELY took me by surprise! And while I generally don't see Star Wars/Macross crossover as a good thing - I guess it can't be ruled out.

VFTF1

[dreamweaver13]

haha. didn't expect an impassioned debate on the question raised in the first post.

so, just to add my thoughts on this (since this is what the thread is for):

I think there is most probably a relation, considering that the human population has thinned quite a bit in the aftermath of the first space war. it's been less than 60 years since the events in macross zero, so it's not too much of a stretch to suppose that Sheryl Nome is related to, or even a direct descendent, of the nomes from zero.

But as to whether or not this "relation" is a big deal cannot be certain. The use of a the "nome" surname could either be a simple homage to macross zero OR a plot device.

As for me, I personally prefer it as a plot device. I like connections in my fiction. And i must always remember that it is fiction. If i wanted gritty realism and the absence of cosmic coincidences, i'd stick to documentaries. I guess the use of the "nome" name wouldn't be that much of a big deal in any other macross series. but this one (frontier) has some kind of feel to it that goes beyond mere coincidence. Nyan-nyan, Idol, center of the galaxy... all these add up to a lingering feeling that there is more to the nome name than a mere coincidence.

But that being said, I wouldn't be disappointed if it is a mere homage. I also completely understand that some stories (even fiction) just have to stand on their own, and not depend on past elements. there's a limit to everything (yes, even Belmonts).

Either way, i'm happy that the name "nome" was used, homage or otherwise, being the freak I am for pop-culture references.

As for Sheryl Nome, i agree that she came of a bit arrogant and selfish in the first episode, but I don't feel any disdain for her yet. I see her as a potential for character development (the same with Alto), and i'm quite excited how she will turn out later on in the series. In fact, the character that i'm worried about now is Ranka Lee, because she has the potential to be a flat character. But i would be contradicting myself. One episode is too early to tell.

[ackem]

As for Sheryl Nome, i agree that she came of a bit arrogant and selfish in the first episode, but I don't feel any disdain for her yet. I see her as a potential for character development (the same with Alto), and i'm quite excited how she will turn out later on in the series. In fact, the character that i'm worried about now is Ranka Lee, because she has the potential to be a flat character. But i would be contradicting myself. One episode is too early to tell.

I saw her attitude in the episode as a persona that she adopts when dealing with people outside of her circle. It was pretty obvious that she had to brace herself when she was about to face the media, especially with the fact that she wasn't feeling too well after the trip. The Decultured version of episode gives a better picture of what she is like, but the broadcast version also showed us some hints. There's also a question in this month's Newtype that deals with this.

Q: In episode 1, Sheryl the Galactic Fairy comes off as arrogant and unlikable. You have to be kidding about the love triangle, right?

A: That's a good question, I wanted to market her pride first (laugh). Of course people have different faces that they show to the world. One thing I can say is that in episode 1 she was showing her professional face. Well, there are different types of entertainers so this is the same thing. You'll just have to wait and see what she is really like. I think you'll find the drama more interesting.

[VFTF1]

Q: In episode 1, Sheryl the Galactic Fairy comes off as arrogant and unlikable. You have to be kidding about the love triangle, right?

A: That's a good question, I wanted to market her pride first (laugh). Of course people have different faces that they show to the world. One thing I can say is that in episode 1 she was showing her professional face. Well, there are different types of entertainers so this is the same thing. You'll just have to wait and see what she is really like. I think you'll find the drama more interesting.

That just makes me like Sheryl even less.

Basara was a true artist who didn't have "two faces" - he authentically believed in his music, he was passionate about it, his lyrics reflected his philosophy and he did everything to convince people that he was right - even risking his career - not to mention his life.

So what if Sheryl is sweet and a 'really nice person' with her friends and family? Are her fans also just performing their "professional function" when they rave for her music or get moved by it?

Sheryl has to realize that if she is just a "profesional singer" then her music is moving people in ways that is more than just entertainment - she is changing how people think and feel about the world through her songs - and it would no doubt be extremely upsetting to her fans to realize that Sheryl puts no heart into it.

I just don't believe in this "profesionalization of art" stuff. Art is radical, art is an attack on convention and an attempt at awakening people.

Anything else is just mere fluff and entertainment. Maybe that's all Sheryl is. I don't begrudge her being "just that" - she's free to be however she wants to be; and her fans can have their reasons for going to her concerts - although I seriously doubt she would have a sustained fanbase without something moving and passionate in her.

I mean - look at how many of the scripted celebs have achieved more than a flicker of fame and sentiment - whereas songs from many years ago still ring true in our hearts.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh - and I understand that this is the first episode... but if Basara's activist passion was annoying in episode 1 of M7, then Sheryl's complete...lack of passion, complete passivity about the fate of other people - is well - terrible...

You know who she reminds me of? JANICE MERLYN!

Yep - spot on. Jenice Merlyn and her silly assistant. Janice the "I won't sign your silly rag" Merlyn... Janice the "professional" who was not crowned Miss Macross PRECISELY because she was scripted and professional and had nothing of the provincial charm and down to earth caring the Minmey had.

Heck - I am a big Misa Hayes fan, so I usually don't praise Minmey - but here I have to.

Look - Minmey CARED for people. Whenever Kaifun tried to make her professional, whenever he cynically made remarks or comments about the "business" end of things -Minmey rebelled. That's why Minmey was loved on the Macross- because she was a girl who cared for people.

This "caring for people" was also probably why it took her so long to return Hikaru's feelings. She had so much empathy for everybody that it was hard for her to have love for just one person - she "loved everyone" - she didn't want to hurt anyone.

Now, as a girlfriend - this attitude is hard to deal with and painful - but as a human being, you have to hand it to Minmey for being a wonderful human being; a wonderful woman who cared for others. Look at the speech she gave impromptu after Gloval's announcement that the Macross was leaving earth again - that speech brought people together and it all came from Minmey's heart - a big reason why it "worked."

And no amount of polling, scripting or other professional balony will ever achieve that.

So - Sheryl stills sucks

VFTF1

[Gubaba]

That just makes me like Sheryl even less.

Basara was a true artist who didn't have "two faces" - he authentically believed in his music, he was passionate about it, his lyrics reflected his philosophy and he did everything to convince people that he was right - even risking his career - not to mention his life.

So what if Sheryl is sweet and a 'really nice person' with her friends and family? Are her fans also just performing their "professional function" when they rave for her music or get moved by it?

Sheryl has to realize that if she is just a "profesional singer" then her music is moving people in ways that is more than just entertainment - she is changing how people think and feel about the world through her songs - and it would no doubt be extremely upsetting to her fans to realize that Sheryl puts no heart into it.

I just don't believe in this "profesionalization of art" stuff. Art is radical, art is an attack on convention and an attempt at awakening people.

Anything else is just mere fluff and entertainment. Maybe that's all Sheryl is. I don't begrudge her being "just that" - she's free to be however she wants to be; and her fans can have their reasons for going to her concerts - although I seriously doubt she would have a sustained fanbase without something moving and passionate in her.

I mean - look at how many of the scripted celebs have achieved more than a flicker of fame and sentiment - whereas songs from many years ago still ring true in our hearts.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh - and I understand that this is the first episode... but if Basara's activist passion was annoying in episode 1 of M7, then Sheryl's complete...lack of passion, complete passivity about the fate of other people - is well - terrible...

You know who she reminds me of? JANICE MERLYN!

Yep - spot on. Jenice Merlyn and her silly assistant. Janice the "I won't sign your silly rag" Merlyn... Janice the "professional" who was not crowned Miss Macross PRECISELY because she was scripted and professional and had nothing of the provincial charm and down to earth caring the Minmey had.

Heck - I am a big Misa Hayes fan, so I usually don't praise Minmey - but here I have to.

Look - Minmey CARED for people. Whenever Kaifun tried to make her professional, whenever he cynically made remarks or comments about the "business" end of things -Minmey rebelled. That's why Minmey was loved on the Macross- because she was a girl who cared for people.

This "caring for people" was also probably why it took her so long to return Hikaru's feelings. She had so much empathy for everybody that it was hard for her to have love for just one person - she "loved everyone" - she didn't want to hurt anyone.

Now, as a girlfriend - this attitude is hard to deal with and painful - but as a human being, you have to hand it to Minmey for being a wonderful human being; a wonderful woman who cared for others. Look at the speech she gave impromptu after Gloval's announcement that the Macross was leaving earth again - that speech brought people together and it all came from Minmey's heart - a big reason why it "worked."

And no amount of polling, scripting or other professional balony will ever achieve that.

So - Sheryl stills sucks

VFTF1

Okay...we're going WAAAAY off-topic here, but I feel compelled to reply. I think you're forgetting what can come from "scripted celebrity." Most of the time, just crap (did ANYONE buy Paris Hilton's album?), but sometimes, playing a role on stage (and I'm guessing that's all the militaristic fetish stuff Sheryl wears on stage is, part of a fictional character named "Sheryl Nome, the Galactic Fairy") can really open an artist up to creating great music, and sometimes, the more artificial the character, the better the music.

cf. The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars.

(Yes, I just compared Sheryl to David Bowie. In which case, Basara must be Iggy Pop. Let's hope they work together to make a couple of albums as good as "The Idiot" or "Lust for Life.")

[mike_s_6]

Have you guys heard of the personality principle that if you "think" that someone is bad, then you'll keep seeing and seeing the bad things in that person. But if you think that a person is good, then you'll keep seeing the good things that that person does.

Nah, no point being made here. Just that some arguments in this thread remind me of it.