SDF tv animeigo vs new remastered

[boinger]

I was one of the first guys to go for the Animeigo preorder. For me, shipping was 50 US and customs was 50 US and so that adds up to over $300 US, especially when Canadian dollars were less than US dollars back then. And with my Animeigo DVDs, I received a dented dvd box with lenticular card extra. So there.

Getting back to my first question.

Has anybody seen the new remastered SDF TV series yet?

Edited April 26, 2008 by boinger

[veffidas]

I've just secured the 25th anniversary set for roughly $250 myself, but I probably won't be able to review it for a while. Nonetheless, Quantum-Raws did release some of the extras from the set including the combined episode 1 and 2 initial broadcast. While I'm uncertain if that extra itself was remastered, here are a few screenshots from the file alongside the official AnimEigo remastering images.

[Dangard Ace]

Which side is which?

[TheLoneWolf]

Yes, the R2 definitely looks better than the Animeigo set. Here's a quick screenshot comparison I made. Image on the left is from the R2 set, on the right is the Animeigo set.

Overall, the color looks more natural, the Animeigo looks oversaturated in comparison. You can also make out finer details in the R2 film. On the downside, the film grain is slightly more noticeable than the Animeigo set. I'm not trying to knock Animeigo, they did the best job they possibly could with HG's poor masters.

[stray]

I've just secured the 25th anniversary set for roughly $250 myself, but I probably won't be able to review it for a while. Nonetheless, Quantum-Raws did release some of the extras from the set including the combined episode 1 and 2 initial broadcast. While I'm uncertain if that extra itself was remastered, here are a few screenshots from the file alongside the official AnimEigo remastering images.

Out of curiousity, what's the gamma set to on your Mac? Contrast might just be showing up as lighter since standard Mac gamma is 1.8; NTSC is 2.2 I think. Is your DVD set to R2 or region free btw? Trying to find firmware to kill the region lock on my Mac is a pain...

Either way, it looks like they went all out on line enhancement for the remaster. I kind of like how soft everything looks where the main gun is firing. Still kind of on the fence about picking it up though. How are the extras?

[veffidas]

Out of curiousity, what's the gamma set to on your Mac? Contrast might just be showing up as lighter since standard Mac gamma is 1.8; NTSC is 2.2 I think. Is your DVD set to R2 or region free btw? Trying to find firmware to kill the region lock on my Mac is a pain...

Either way, it looks like they went all out on line enhancement for the remaster. I kind of like how soft everything looks where the main gun is firing. Still kind of on the fence about picking it up though. How are the extras?

The screenshots I posted were from the Quantum-Raws DVD-rip I mentioned, since I won't be able to get the DVDs themselves on hand for a while; so, I unfortunately can't really tell you about the extras. You'll have to ask TheLoneWolf for his opinion. Nonetheless, the gamma is set to 1.8 on my Mac.

As for the DVD region lock issue, my drive firmware has been flashed to RPC-1 (region-free) with Region X used for switching. If your Mac has a Matshita drive, headway was made not too long ago for a fair number of them, so you may be in luck: http://forum.rpc1.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=43082 .

(Dangard Ace, the left side is from the R2 discs, as the right side has some of the AnimEigo split-screen comparisons: http://www.animeigo.com/images/macross.t .)

Edited June 10, 2008 by veffidas

[TheLoneWolf]

Off the top of my head the bonus disc includes the original 1-hour pilot (episodes 1-2); the original broadcast version of episode 11, so much animation is missing that it reminds me of Space Gandam V ; commercials for the ARII/IMAI and Takatoku models & toys; the opening and closing themes completely remastered, not sure what BV did but these segments look absolutely flawless on my HDTV; and the SD intro completely remastered, it also looks flawless. I think there are some other minor things like Mari singing the closing theme and a credit-less opening/closing sequences but I can't remember ATM.

[stray]

So... I've got the R2 remastered 25th anniversary SDFM TV on order, and it's my last chance to cancel it before it ships hopefully on Wed. Has anyone actually gotten it yet? Someone on Amazon seems to make mention of a 240 page booklet... has anyone gone through the extras and are they worth it?

[TheLoneWolf]

The book is alright. It's got interviews in kanji and the same recycled lineart that's been shown in every other Macross artbook. The only good thing about the booklet is that it has a comprehensive gallery of Macross merchandise offered throughout the years.

As for the DVD extras, it's nothing to get too excited about. See my post above. I'd recommend putting your money towards the inevitable Blu-ray release. The remastered intros show that Bandai can clean up the visuals to near HD quality, but they neglected to with the actual episodes in this box set. Personally, I think they're going to save this process for the inevitable Blu-ray release.

[stray]

Hrmm... I appreciate the heads up. I see alot of mixed reviews on Amazon but they seem to mostly focus on the price and the 'milking' aspect I suppose. I do kind of wish they put out something more similar to the Seven boxes, i.e. including everything SDFM, Flashback 2012 and DYRL as a mega Macross box(es).

But I really like the polka dots...

[TheLoneWolf]

I can see where those Amazon reviews are coming from. If Bandai packed this boxset with more extras and better video quality, the price would not be an issue. Unfortunately, it's got a hefty pricetag and not too much to offer. One, last double-dip before they unleash the Blu-ray box.

[stray]

Meh... I decided to break down and cancel it out; 3 SDFM box sets just seemed like overkill. I don't even know how much better BR is going to look being that it's still from a 16mm film source. Regardless, now I can put the money towards more Frontier goodies, and the inevitable Zero BR box next month...

[David Hingtgen]

Somewhat related note--anyone know anything about the apparently coming in October "complete collection"?

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Collection-...9330&sr=8-3

Deepdiscount says it's from ADV, but little beyond that: http://www.deepdiscount.com/viewproduct.ht...ductId=48056160

I still don't have a copy of the original SDF:M so I could really use a set---my guess is that it's a slim-pack set of ADV's recent dub, and if it's that cheap, I'll definitely pick it up.

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't even know how much better BR is going to look being that it's still from a 16mm film source. Regardless, now I can put the money towards more Frontier goodies, and the inevitable Zero BR box next month...

I also used to think that what we've got is as good as it's going to get. But on the Bonus disc, Bandai's got remastered intros/closings for SDF and the pilot. It looks incredible and blows away all other SDF intros/closings to date. I'm guessing that this is just a teaser for whatever Bandai's got coming down the pipeline.

Compare the CF Valkyries in the background of these screenshots.

[Lindem Herz]

I also used to think that what we've got is as good as it's going to get. But on the Bonus disc, Bandai's got remastered intros/closings for SDF and the pilot. It looks incredible and blows away all other SDF intros/closings to date. I'm guessing that this is just a teaser for whatever Bandai's got coming down the pipeline.

Compare the CF Valkyries in the background of these screenshots.

Screw the Valkyries, you can actually see stars on the background!

[stray]

I also used to think that what we've got is as good as it's going to get. But on the Bonus disc, Bandai's got remastered intros/closings for SDF and the pilot. It looks incredible and blows away all other SDF intros/closings to date. I'm guessing that this is just a teaser for whatever Bandai's got coming down the pipeline.

Compare the CF Valkyries in the background of these screenshots.

Nooooo! DNR and edge enhancement will take Macross' soul!!!!!

I'd look for some articles on why removing film grain is bad but... that screen comparison actually looks badass.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I hate to bump an old thread, but this seems the best place for it. I was looking up info on the Nadesico remaster after comparing the two and noticing some vastly altered lighting. While doing so, I came across one site's comparison photos between the new R2 and the ADV release (which exhibits some nasty aliasing and edge enhancement). The comparison wasn't entirely fair, as the R2 was represented by a DVD rip. This rip, I know from TheLoneWolf's comparison, exhibits an overkill of DNR (which makes the author's exclaims of the R2 having detail superiority look like blindness on his part as, in his pics, the R1 is vastly superior in visible brush strokes on the backgrounds, while the R2 is a blurred mess). It appears to be the same rip veffidas is showing. It looks bloody awful.

What astounds me though, is that the color is vastly different. Moreso than I remember from the little I've seen of Gubaba's release. I'm curious if this is another meddling on the rippers part, but if so, it's rather extreme. It's night and day, and not in a good way. The author talks about how more natural and vivid it looks. I can see why this may be preferable, and I concur on the space shots with the absence of the red tint. Otherwise though, it looks way too futzed with. What concerns me are the shots of the characters. Particularly the ones of Hikaru and Minmay. The color is so different that it doesn't imply a mere saturation boost and contrast adjustment, but rather a near digital repaint (the only thing barring that is the error on Hikaru's collar is still there) like what I'm told happened to Cinderella. At the very least, a conscience bending of the color palette. I know colors fade, but these don't even look the same. The sky, blue on the handkerchief and helmet, and Hikaru's eyes are completely different hues, and the reds glow eerily. On Minmay, the subtle pastel background is now a vivid yellow-green and brown, yet her dress is no more vibrant. This is sort of like what I saw in Nadesico, where dark, near invisible parts of a cockpit were now bright and visible, dark grey to light grey, and the shadow in Ryoko's hair now a midtone, the midtone becoming a highlight. Sure, you can see more, but it seems like you might be seeing more than intended. Having testing it in the GIMP after posting, I found this to be achieved by boosting the midrange. With Macross, the whole thing looks creepily smooth and digital (though I know the rip's DNR is partly to blame). It changes the look of the show.

Color is a very touchy thing on animation restoration. Entire Disney and Warner releases are known for their mucked up color. The key problem here is that, at least in America, efforts were made to use the correct colors to react with whatever film stock was to be used. The artists knew that the cel would look different on film then on the acetate itself. Hence if you look at a cel from Alice in Wonderland, Alice's hair is very greenish. This was because it would expose as a golden yellow on the film. Colors would also often be oversaturated as the film would tend to mute it. The trouble starts when the restorers, often oblivious to this, don't reference the film tests and instead take the cels as law. The new Sleeping Beauty release shows this off distinctly in the forest segment, where Briar Rose's blouse changes hue from shot to shot for no apparent reason now. Not to mention the desire to make an old animation look like it was brand new. I'm not sure if Japanese artists did such tests, especially given how often dark these films usually look (which are then brightened up in these remasters). Though I'd imagine given the black line in Ryoko's hair, that really was supposed to be shadow. Messing with the levels is a give and takes approach, it seems.

Correcting a faded tint is one thing, and it's nice to see more than just a one shift fits all approach (generally why so many restorations come out so damn blue) but the blues on Hikaru and the now grey sky suggest more in the way of active meddling and revisionism than restoration. Does it really look like that? Or is the author using a really weird ripping group's take on what they though it should look like? I don't remember it being like that on the Galaxy Networks sub, and will have to look into it myself (as soon as I clear some HDD space). I know the source for each remaster is different to begin with, so I suppose an even fairer comparison would be with a previous R2, but I can't imagine those blues being right, especially since the helmet's now darker than before.

So I simply don't remember so stark a change, and most discussion I've had was that it was a subtle one at best. So these screen caps confuse me, and look like nothing I've seen. I'm not saying the Animeigo is more faithful, but it does seems like it was less messed with. That may be due to the horrible purple cast they had to deal with. The R2 seems more like ADV's Mospeada, with lots of saturation poured on. What do you guys think?

http://linkai8424.spaces.live.com/blog/cns...5!304.entry

Having now watched Phantasm, I can at least say that the quantum raw looks like utter crap in comparison. Which is a relief, though not unexpected. It Bakawolf DYRL again. The colors still look a touch over-boosted at times, but not like the above comparison. Skin tones are a tad rich (Hikaru looks downright swarthy at times ) It looks a lot better with the grain intact too (interesting to see the splices still there too). At least it doesn't look like the repaint the raw suggested, though some of the colors still seem odd to me. I'll have to compare to the Animeigo later for a more direct episode to episode comparison.

I'm reminded again of how Phantasm is the greatest recap episode ever.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[nhyone]

Judging by your comments, you think the right side is the R2? That's Animeigo's version.

Update: oops, sorry, if you are referring to the linked article, I have only seen the first image before. The R2 color does look like that. But the grain is all gone, showing that it has gone through some strong denoise filter.

Edited November 26, 2009 by nhyone

[Gubaba]

Judging by your comments, you think the right side is the R2? That's Animeigo's version.

The newest R2 version is VERY different from the AnimEigo version.

[Uxi]

Is there any difference from the $40 set I got from Robotech.com versus the first release Animeigo?

[azrael]

Is there any difference from the $40 set I got from Robotech.com versus the first release Animeigo?

Rebranding? Nah there's no difference.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Real helpful there guys. I've actively compared Phantasm now, granted on an improper LCD monitor, but it's better than nothing. The difference is quite remarkable. It really doesn't hit you until seeing them side by side just how much has changed. Watching the R2 on it's own mostly looked like a saturation boost. Together, it shows way more than that. Given the length of this posting, I probably should've just let the issue go, but too late now. ;; I tried my best to keep the comparison as unbiased as possible, though that was easier than I thought given my conclusion.

The one thing to remember when judging is that it's not entirely fair. We have a 10 year old restoration from the HG master vs a new one from the BW master. We have no idea how far gone the BW was in comparison to the HG. I've seen the infamous reel and comparisons AE provided, which suggested a heavy purple tint. I'd imagine this was the priority to get rid of.

The first thing noticed right off the bat is the AE has a decent blue tint to it. Everything is rather bluish, and it's probably the biggest mark against it (aside from looking perhaps a touch washed out). On the other had, the BV seems rather green, sometimes yellow, though not as heavily. It seems almost as if everything that was blue in the AE is now green (Hikaru's headboard, the stripes on Minmays dress, and so on). The lack of blue tint does give a nicer variety to colors, but does change the look from a cool one to a more smarmy one. There's a lot more grays now. I mean a lot more.

Which brings me to perhaps the chief deficiency in the BV, a severe lack of high tones. Having tested the contrast boost on a Nadesico still (not an exact science, but it does suggest how it was achieved), the shadow detail that was gained was done through boosting the midrange. This basically forces them to lower the the high range to compensate. The result is greater shadow detail, and no more washed out look, but it also looks really dinghy, almost muddy. There's seemingly no instance of pure white in the BV version, and makes the very saturated colors still look rather muted. So there isn't a real winner here. the AE looks a touch washed out, and the BV looks muddy. I suppose most will prefer the B here, but that could also be due to the color tweaking.

And boy did they tweak. While I initially thought that maybe BV was simply more aggressive when it came to boosting the more desaturated scenes, the preview and Valkyries proved they were actively color correcting on the specific level. All Valks are now grey or greyish. And I'm not just talking about the blue tint removal. Even shot's where Hikaru's was pure white in the AE are now a steely grey. This is most noticeable in the opening, where the AE shows the Valkyrie having a similar hue to the the background, the BV is completely different. It's seems they didn't just want to correct faded colors, but rather add a consistency where there was none before. It seems like they were trying to match the toys better. It's up to the viewer I suppose on whether this is a good thing.

Ironically, it took until the preview to prove this mentality true and not just a hunch based on some muted backgrounds now starkly vibrant (which, I most say, just doesn't look right if ever I had to make a statement on gut feeling). The shot of Hikaru in bed has been mildly revisioned. The paint error has been mostly corrected and th pillow is now blue for some reason rather than yellow (I'm guessing the pillow is blue in Pine Salad so they merely redid the preview to match, my box case suggests this).

The color boost is particularly noticeable in the skin tones. AE's are more pinkish/peachy, whereas the BV is very tan/brown. The saturation is also overdone in some parts. Again, it's hard to say which is preferably. THe AE is sometimes so bright as to look whitish, particularly in Misa, whereas Hikaru looks like he's been out in the sun too long at times in the BV. I definitely think a little saturation helps, but am not as sure about the hue itself. As washed out as it is, I think the AE looks a bit more natural.

If one thing can be said about the colors in the BV it's that they are a lot smoother and consistent. With the tint gone, and certain scenes either resaturated or outright recolored, it looks a bit more uniform. It's not without it's moments, as some shots look oversaturated (as compared to the AE looking washed out), particularly reds and the backgrounds (The shot of Roy in front of a yellow wall in particular strikes me funny). To put it simply, the BV has a better gamut of colors vs the AE's blue (or at time yellow) bias, but it just feels a little too messed with. The lack of a decent high tone doesn't help it either.

Moving on (though the color is really my core issue here), the shadow detail is a nice gain. Though Phantasm didn't benefit from it much outside of the "Lynn Minmay" shots. In the AnimEigo's biggest plus side, the picture is considerably better framed. Even though the picture gain is relatively minimal, it gives some shots, particularly closeups, considerable breathing room. The AE also removed the splices. I'm iffy on this one. The purest in me likes seeing them there as it's part of the show's production. On the other hand, some of them are really sloppy, and quite distracting. I'd guess a lot of AE's effort went into removing them. Given the heavy color touchup BV did, leaving the splices in strikes me as a bit odd. Maybe they had their hands full. One more point goes to BV for not using edge enhancement as the AE seems to exhibit (albeit rather minorly).

In the end, it's really hard for me to declare a clear winner in this regard. I know most here say BV wins by a fair margin, and with their more modern technology, they certainly were above to do a bit more than AnimEigo in regards to color control. Sadly though, color accuracy, like I said earlier, is really hard to pin down with animation, given the changes with film stock and so on. It's possible BV was even using an official color test guide, and are simple correcting things that never exposed properly to begin with. I'm sure Hikaru's VF wasn't supposed to go from bluish white to white from shot to shot. Though I must question the brownish grey tone. The Grey Valkyrie being made brown is a tossup in the least (could be fading mixed with tint). The grey instead of blue makings on the battle pods another. I think, when it comes down to it, whichever better depends on just how much meddling you can stomach. Animeigo seems to merely have corrected a strong cast, though was stuck with another, and then cleaned up scratches and splices. It's the least messed with, but does suffer from some faded colors they probably weren't sure of needing correction, and a blue cast that's rather common in restorations, and perhaps a slightly too bright image. BV practically repainted the whole damn thing, correcting some errors, and leaving others. Bv is much more hands on. The colors are more consistent, but do seem messed with, and the shadow gain was accomplish by crushing the hightones (I suppose that one isn't as noticeable unless you have the AE showing you just how offwhite everything is). So they each have their strengths and weaknesses.

For my money, I think I'm going to have to side with Animeigo (I suppose this works to my favor as I already own it), though I expect to be alone in this. The blue cast is a bit unfortunate, and it can look a bit garish at times, but it looks more like what I've seen in the artbooks and other period shows. While I applaud BV's efforts to give the show a more consistent look, I just can't say I'm liking how saturated and altered the colors are. It looks smoother, and maybe more pristine, even great at times, but I can't help but feel that some of it (maybe even a lot of it) just doesn't look right, particularly skin tones and things like Max's hair (which was green in this episode instead of teal!?). Neither is really ideal in may book, and the BV does go to so far as to highlight AE's flaws. Still, I like the framing better, and while I'm sure Phantasm wasn't the best example, the added shadow detail didn't seem that big to put up with so much meddling to the color palette. While I think the ideal would be a happy medium between the two, I just have to side with the one less messed with for now. I sort of wonder if off the self software might allow fans to correct the AE's problems? Though I suppose those truly bothered with it will be more than happy with the R2.

Here's a few screen caps highlighting some of the bigger changes. AnimEigo on the left, Bandai on the right. Source of Bandai is the Galaxy Network release, which looks worlds better than the smeary, overprocessed Quantum Raws. Kudos. While comparing a DVd to a fansub isn't 100% accurate given compression and filtering, the file is only about 200 megs smaller than the episodes on the DVD. AnimEigo's icehouse sucks for using DVD5s (though they're somewhat forgiven for having a rare progressive encode).

Sorry for the long post. I just thought it was interesting analysing two very different approaches to "restoration". Keep up the good work on the fansubs, Galaxy Network. I may still wind up grabbing them for completests sake (and new translations are always refreshing).

[Gubaba]

Sorry for the long post. I just thought it was interesting analysing two very different approaches to "restoration". Keep up the good work on the fansubs, Galaxy Network. I may still wind up grabbing them for completests sake (and new translations are always refreshing).

Thank boinger for the rip, that's all done by him.

(And technically, it's not really a new translation...it's about 55% AnimEigo, 40% ADV, and 5% me.)

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I would if I could remember his screen name. ;; Hence why I just credited Galaxy Networks, since I was aware it wasn't your rip. It's still a different translation I suppose. 40% ADV... I though ADV change maybe 2% of the lines at best? Not like I own the ADV to compare. If it's one thing that site showed me was a reminder of why interlaced video sucks, and the EE is more apparent.

[Gubaba]

I would if I could remember his screen name. ;; Hence why I just credited Galaxy Networks, since I was aware it wasn't your rip. It's still a different translation I suppose. 40% ADV... I though ADV change maybe 2% of the lines at best? Not like I own the ADV to compare. If it's one thing that site showed me was a reminder of why interlaced video sucks, and the EE is more apparent.

The ADV and AnimEigo subs are sometimes surprisingly different (and even entirely different on one or two occasions). Usually, though, it's just different phrasing (one will say something like, "The Macross, having defeated the Zentradi again, now makes its way towards earth" whereas the other might say, "With the latest Zentradi defeat, the Macross now heads for earth") or terminology (The ADV subs say "U.N. Forces H.Q." but the AnimEigo subs say "UN Forces High Command").

(One thing I noticed that I thought was interesting, though, is that Kakizaki always, always, always calls Hikaru "Taicho." Max sometimes calls him that, but more often doesn't call him anything. Now the AnimEigo subs translate "Taicho" as "Leader," which is what I've gone with for the Galaxy Network subs. But ADV does something kind of interesting. When Max says "Taicho," they translate it as "Leader" or "Sir," but when Kakizaki says it, they translate it as "Boss." It's not as accurate (which is why I didn't make use of it for our subs), but I think it fits both Max's and Kakizaki's characters, and differentiates them in a nice, subtle way.)

Anyway, back on topic...I prefer the R2 remaster. After watching a few episodes of it, the AnimEigo release looks almost TOO colorful. I wish the R2 had fixed some of the scratches and the little bit of fuzz at the bottom of the screen whenever the scene cuts, but I guess you can't have everything.

[VFTF1]

Re: Those comparisson pictures posted a couple posts up:

Wow. Where is the scene with Max with his arm around Misa and Kakizaki on the right of them from? What episode?? I TOTALLY don't remember that scene...

Pete

[Keith]

Re: Those comparisson pictures posted a couple posts up:

Wow. Where is the scene with Max with his arm around Misa and Kakizaki on the right of them from? What episode?? I TOTALLY don't remember that scene...

Pete

Magic bicycle!

[nhyone]

Mercurial Morpheus, I'm surprised you said the R2's color was saturated. I thought it was rather mute -- definitely so compared to AnimEigo's. (Although your comparison shows it is not always the case.)

And I disagree that the AE had minor EE. For a CRT perhaps. I couldn't bear to watch it on a LCD monitor/TV.

But you brought up one good point. I had always assume the R2 colors were accurate... maybe they were not. Does anyone remember the colors from 27 years ago?

[Gubaba]

Magic bicycle!

(PSSST...Keith...The Magic Bicycle is a Robotech-ism...)

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Mercurial Morpheus, I'm surprised you said the R2's color was saturated. I thought it was rather mute -- definitely so compared to AnimEigo's. (Although your comparison shows it is not always the case.)

And I disagree that the AE had minor EE. For a CRT perhaps. I couldn't bear to watch it on a LCD monitor/TV.

But you brought up one good point. I had always assume the R2 colors were accurate... maybe they were not. Does anyone remember the colors from 27 years ago?

My point on saturation has to do with stuff like the skin tones and that Roy image above. Everything is far more colorful in the R2, particularly backgrounds, with everything exhibiting rich color, while the R1 has a near pastel quality at times. There are also times where they boost it moreso in certain shots, making the saturation look a bit uneven. What you're confusing it for is brightness. Since the midrange is higher in the R2 to pull out shadow detail, it truncates the highrange, makign these richer colors look subdued and mute. Animeigo is a lot brighter in their colors, but the color not as intense in saturation. I should've posted something with more red as red tends to boost faster than other colors. Look at the bridge bunnies to highlight this. The red on their uniform is exactly the same, but the blues are much richer in the R2, exhibiting the more control EV was capable of. The richer blues makes the red look more subdued, when it's actually not. They look like they're bleeding a little bit into the black line as well. Accuracy is debatable, as the AE is still bluer, but the BV definitely did more than just remove that. This is more precise than a tint job. The question is where they got these colors from.

As for EE being minor, I was speaking subjectively. I abhor EE in all it's uses, but most times, it didn't really stick out too much. In fact, there were times where the R2 suggests it's own edging in the same places. The ADV caps in the link I provided though show the EE being a lot heavier. CRT's have the best picture balance of all the types by the way. Though an LCD monitor is set sharper than your TV should be. Technically, the brightness issue on AE shouldn't be much a problem on a properly calibrated TV. I never remember having a problem with it. I wonder if I should post some pics of the Robotech episode. That should give a good example of how the HG source used to look. It had definitely deteriorated since that copy was struck, given Animeigo's example, but it might be interesting.

Interesting point on Kakizaki, Gubaba. It sounds like ADV was painting him as the big, New Yorker type character. Boss sounds like a factory or mafia nan type cliche. It does provide a distinction, but as you've pointed out, there already is one in his insistence on referring to Hikaru as such. ADV always did try to make things more "colorful" I guess. Thanks for the example. As for the color, the R2 is more mellow thanks to the brightness, but definitely the more "colorful" of the two.

One thing I'd be miffed about is the purple striping on Max making my costume inaccurate (though I did select a purplish blue for the striping).

YES RICK, ONLY A DREAM...

Robotech proves the brown Valkyrie. I'm still guessing AE wasn't certain if it was faded or not, as it's very grey with no hint of brown.

Interesting to see the framing is more like AE.

AE definitely upped the highrange. It's also yellower.

This one actually looks the best of the three.

AE is brighter, with more shadow detail. Looking at the three of them, even subtracting the blue cast, the BV is too green.

Interestingly, it looks like they were using the Robotech master copy as a bit of a color guide. Seeing as they probably had no access to any color samples, this makes some sense. Even the blue cast is still evident. Main changes seem to be the dirt cleanup, splice removal, an increase in saturation, and grain removal. Even with the color cast, the AE is much more colorful than RT. It really suggests had far gone the master was since the RT copy was struck.

What this really shows is just how restrained Animeigo kept themselves when remastering it. It's something I noticed back when I saw an ADV presentation on their work on Mospeada. I remember just how oversaturated that comparison looked (sadly, it's not on the discs). The colors practically glowed. I remember thinking it was ADV trying to one up AE (I still think they only did it because they didn't want to be shown up by a lesser, if older company, though Robotech Remastered's existence suggests it was HG that insisted). ADV went through efforts to make the show look brand new, almost destructively so, whereas Animeigo looks like they were merely trying to make the show look cleaner and less dingy. It's a common case in restorations, particularly animation. That ever existing drive to make it "look better than when it was new". Many restorers seem to feel modern audiences can't handle the sometimes pale, dark look of old animation techniques (given the number crying for a reanimated Macross, and the people that won't touch old anime, this fear seems almost well founded), which is why so many "restored" classics are so damn vibrant (primery colors were more common though, it's it's defense I suppose) In this case, Animeigo's approach is VERY uncommon. About the most destructive thing they did was degrain it, and I remember them saying they artificially reintroduced a grain texture because the end result "was too clean as to flatten the image."

Do I get a cookie for dealing with Robotech? You know, I was going to make a joke about how the R2 "at least doesn't look like Robotech now" given my hatred of Roboteck Remastered, but I find it actually resembles unrestored Robotech in the contrast department .

Edited November 26, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Keith]

(PSSST...Keith...The Magic Bicycle is a Robotech-ism...)

Yeah, well as a Macross fan I'm taking it back!

[Mercurial Morpheus]

It's Special Bicycle, and you know it.

[HannouHeiki]

The Galaxy Network encodes use x264 encoding at double or maybe even triple the bitrate that is usually used for DVD video. There is probably little to no loss from the DVD source.

One thing the BV release has over the AE release is bitrate. They use DVD-9s and the DVD video is packed at the max bitrate the DVDs can handle.

I'm making DVD versions of the R2s following the Galaxy Network releases, and I attempted to add some alternate audio tracks from the ADV release (dub and Mari commentaries). I quickly learned that the R2 bitrate was packed so tightly I could only fit one additional audio track after it was downgraded.

The AE/ADV video bitrate is low enough to fit a 5.1 track and two 2.0 a tracks. Ingrained in my memory is the macroblocking on the AE release on a certain high speed scene: the closeup on the hull of Kamujin's ship taking damage in Ep 36.

I've noticed that the R2 DVDs upscale wonderfully to large displays with a decent upscaling player. The absence of significant DNR plus the high bitrate make the R2 DVDs good upscale material.

I'm finding the R2 DVDs perfect for watching SDFM all over again. For me the strong colors are a definite plus. Take a look at Misa's skin tone in some of the comparison shots. The AE clips show her as very pale and white, but in the R2 clips she has color and life. I just have a feeling that that is the way she was meant to look.

Also take a look at the clip with Hikaru in the hospital. Notice that grass hill through the window? The AE version has that odd blue tinted grass. The grass in the R2 version is....GREEN!!!

The R2 remaster isn't perfect, but it is the best I've ever seen SDFM. The audio is not very strong on the R2s, I have to admit. Many scenes carry a quiet hiss, and I have a feeling this is a result of aging masters.

I've been talking to Boinger and he has brought up the idea of digitally preserving some of the old Macross LD releases. I think this idea has good potential...because the LDs would be mastered from "younger" and "fresher" film! Even if the video quality turns out to be not up to par, I'm certain that the LDs may have superior audio.

In that regard, can anyone say anything about the LDs compared with today's releases?

Edited November 27, 2009 by OptimusX

[Mercurial Morpheus]

The Galaxy Network encodes use x264 encoding at double or maybe even triple the bitrate that is usually used for DVD video. There is probably little to no loss from the DVD source.

One thing the BV release has over the AE release is bitrate. They use DVD-9s and the DVD video is packed at the max bitrate the DVDs can handle.

This is a know difference in philosophy. Japanese companies tend to use fewer episodes a disc and higher bitrates. Here, the general idea is a gig a halfhour. I do side with the Japanese thinking, outside of the ridiculous two episode releases.

I'm curious to know whether ADV used dual layer discs. I doubt it.

For me the strong colors are a definite plus. Take a look at Misa's skin tone in some of the comparison shots. The AE clips show her as very pale and white, but in the R2 clips she has color and life. I just have a feeling that that is the way she was meant to look.

The skin tones are one of my biggest problems actually. She's more colorful, but we've gone from a peachy color to a tan one, and I'm curious about that. Worse, while the females have benefited, a lot of the male characters are now so brown as to look hispanic. I just don't think they're supposed to be that rich. I do agree that the highlights tend to washout a bit too much, but the BV is taking a shotgun to a housefly. Then again, the saturation isn't so much the problem I have, outside of some overkill shots, it's the tweaking that makes me wonder. As I've said, it's basically a light touch versus a heavy hand.

Also take a look at the clip with Hikaru in the hospital. Notice that grass hill through the window? The AE version has that odd blue tinted grass. The grass in the R2 version is....GREEN!!!

That's because of the blue tint. I believe it's a bush or tree by the way. At the same time, I can argue that it's through a window, hence a slight cast is no biggie Yes, it's now green, but so is everything else that was once blue-green. The bridge, the walls, Hikaru's headboard, his sky blue scarf is now teal, the blue on the helmet is now a darker blue-green, MAX'S HAIR in this episode. It's all very green, and grey. The bridge shot in particular looks like more than a tint change to me. The monitor was a blue-green, now it's as green as her chair. A tint change maybe, but that doesn't seen right. It's this kind of change that bothers me on this release. It's not too noticeable without a side by side (except the whites and greys being more neutral), but it's there.

I've been talking to Boinger and he has brought up the idea of digitally preserving some of the old Macross LD releases. I think this idea has good potential...because the LDs would be mastered from "younger" and "fresher" film! Even if the video quality turns out to be not up to par, I'm certain that the LDs may have superior audio.

Don't bet on it. If the Robotech has show me anything, it's to remind me that this is still a relatively modest budgeted TV series from 1982. They probably weren't too careful with the film to start with. It might be more vibrant, but I'd bet it looks a lot more like AE or RT than BV's recolor. Probably just not as faded. I saw an AMV years back that used the 15th anniversary LD, and did remember it looking pretty good (sort of made me wonder what happened in the five years to the DVD release.) Though I was unaware how processed the video was. I remember him changing backgrounds and such. EDIT I looked it up on Youtube. Aside from some added compression, it's what I remember. Here it is.

(it's the best Macross AMV ever by the way). Looking at it, if they do look like this, then we've found the happy medium. Color is richj, but not too rich, and the skin tones are pinker. There's still a blue yellow cast (moreso yellow), and I'm beginning to think that's simply what it's supposed to look like. It also depends on how well the video was transferred and so on. The resolution would take a hit, but in Macross' case, it might not affect much. I imagine the audio would benefit just from lack of compression, but it's still 80's mono. You might want to look into threads on the new Sleeping Beauty to get an idea on how a rip might look. There's a lot of factors going into such a project. Part of me thinks it a touch foolhardy given what LD rips I've seen (though I am an analogue purist when it's possible), but if it can be made to look like One Day More, we may have something.

In that regard, can anyone say anything about the LDs compared with today's releases?

Well, having just looked at the AMV, it's starting to look like the happy medium... Heck, I'm curious as to how the old R2 DVDs looked. I remember hearing the AnimEigo beat them hands down, but then again, I'm hearing that the new ones beat the Animeigo hands down, and these last few posts illustrate how much stock I put in that I still have to laugh at that website where the guy enthusiastically gives the detail award to Quantum's smeary DNR'd to death rips.

Thanks for the thoughts. I pretty much figured I'd be alone in the preference. The R2 looks more like what most people want I guess, hence why so many restorations go headstrong into the "better than new" mentality (I did it myself when I tried ripping the Gekigangar OAV. I boosted the color too much). I love restorations, but Disney and so on have sort of burned me out on the color meddling (hence why I'm torn on my Sleeping Beauty BD, it's so detailed and smooth, but a lot of times the color is just so wrong). At least they skipped the DNR Hollywood loves.

Small edit: Watched a bit on my calibrated plasma through the PC. It looked better. Particularly the hightones. There's stil some oversaturation at times (the wall behind Roy being probably the worst). The tint was a bit more natural in the female skintones. Though none of this really surprises me, as I've said the changes aren't that noticeable unless side by side, and it's now on a television instead of a monitor.

Interesting thing I noticed that actually caused me to edit the post: I was watching a parody video using footage from Pine Salad (which looked way more colorful on my plasma than the DVD on my laptop). The paint error on Hikaru is gone, just like the Bandai preview. Seems it was only in the original preview. So it suggests they cut the episode shot into the preview. Interesting approach to things, especially in a meagre preview. I may have to check out the R2 of Pine Salad to see if the error on Max's Valkyrie was fixed.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[HannouHeiki]

This is a know difference in philosophy. Japanese companies tend to use fewer episodes a disc and higher bitrates. Here, the general idea is a gig a halfhour. I do side with the Japanese thinking, outside of the ridiculous two episode releases.

I'm curious to know whether ADV used dual layer discs. I doubt it.

They are dual layer, but they add on multiple audio tracks and special features. Max combined bitrate of video plus audio tracks (even tracks not being played) is about 10k. The BV release is 8k+ with only one audio track. The combined bitrate on the ADV/AE release is below that. I'm just recalling from memory, but I had the impression that the bitrate for video alone was about 30% lower.

The skin tones are one of my biggest problems actually. She's more colorful, but we've gone from a peachy color to a tan one, and I'm curious about that. Worse, while the females have benefited, a lot of the male characters are now so brown as to look hispanic. I just don't think they're supposed to be that rich. I do agree that the highlights tend to washout a bit too much, but the BV is taking a shotgun to a housefly. Then again, the saturation isn't so much the problem I have, outside of some overkill shots, it's the tweaking that makes me wonder. As I've said, it's basically a light touch versus a heavy hand.

Your biggest issue seems to be my greatest source of satisfaction. I guess it all comes down to personal preference, and since Macross is such an old show, I think we all have our own way of remembering things and how we would like to see them today.

Well, having just looked at the AMV, it's starting to look like the happy medium... Heck, I'm curious as to how the old R2 DVDs looked. I remember hearing the AnimEigo beat them hands down, but then again, I'm hearing that the new ones beat the Animeigo hands down, and these last few posts illustrate how much stock I put in that I still have to laugh at that website where the guy enthusiastically gives the detail award to Quantum's smeary DNR'd to death rips.

Color is something I have yet to be particularly picky about, I just love that the R2s upscale so well and like you've said, not DNR'd to death! The reason I've brought up the LDs is because of the potential that it was mastered from younger film. I don't know analog video as well as today's digital formats...would these sources be interlaced?

At least they skipped the DNR Hollywood loves.

You should check out the latest Ghostbusters BD release. It has film grain from hell! When I say that I mean that as a compliment, I think you would understand...

Edited November 29, 2009 by OptimusX