Romance of the Three Kingdoms

[Gubaba]

Okay, it's not anime (although there is an anime) and it's not science fiction (although there are SF adapatations), but I think it kind of fits here...

A while back, I deicded it was time to tackle the Four Chinese Classics, so I picked up Three Kingdoms at a Chinese book store near my house (a brown, boxed, four-volume set, translated by Moss Roberts, with a note inside the first volume that says "NOT FOR SALE IN NORTH AMERICA." Hmmm...), and nine months later, I'm about 400 pages from the end - which sounds like a lot, except that the whole thing is about 2200 pages long.

I'm duty-bound to finish it, but at this point, almost all the characters from the first two-thirds of the book are dead, and it kind of feels like a not-as-good sequel. Finishing it has become a real chore.

Has anyone else here read it, and if you have, did you have the same problem?

[Shun]

Did u read Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Records of the Three Kingdoms?

The first is fictional based on historical records. The second is much more historically accurate* and makes sense (we can never tell if the recorded history is 100% truth and not biased).

If u read about Guan Yu's crossing of 5 passes and killing of 6 generals, Zhuge Liang's witchcraft in summoning of the Wind, then u've read the fiction version - interesting but far from being historically accurate. It tends to side with Liu Bei and make Cao Cao seem so evil that it is somehow (IMHO) shallow.

Of cos, the Romance ver serves its purpose in story-telling, not as an accurate history record. and its biggest credit is it made 3 kingdoms era very popular.

And i agree, at the end, most of the greatest heroes were dead, so it does feel like anti-climax. Even though the Romance version is fiction, it is based largely on history and most people were dead then.

PS > I'm more interested in historical accuracy but Romance was what made me interested in 3 kingdoms in the first place.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Shun

[Gubaba]

It's the novel (seven parts history and three parts fiction, as one commentator called it), so yeah, there's the occasional bit of wizardry and sometimes a character will die a year or so earlier or later than he did in real life. But the edition has hundreds of pages of footnotes to explain where the book deviates from history. I'm more into literature than I am into history anyway, so reading the Romance rather than the Record is fine for me.

And yes, Cao Cao is the "bad guy." I still liked him A LOT better than I liked Liu Bei. Kongming's my favorite, and he's still around in Chapter 96 (which is where I currently am), but he really can't carry the story by himself. When he dies (and I'm sure he will, before this whole thing is over), I'm afraid that the last shred of interest I have in the story will be gone, unless someone else of comparable interest is introduced.

That said, when the book is good, it's VERY good indeed.

[the white drew carey]

I don't need to read it... I lived it. On NES, SNES, PS2, etc, etc...

[Duke Togo]

First read it back in '91 or '92. Of course, I've played every one of the games since the original, plus several of the Dynasty Warrior games.

[Necron_99]

I haven't read it yet, but it sounds like I need to..

[Warmaker]

I haven't read the books. But from what I do know of the fictional side are from the games Koei has put out that are set in it.

The strategy games "Romance of the Three Kingdoms," especially as time progressed, usually has alot of nice "cliff's notes" of the characters. I spent alot of time poring through the characters reading these summaries.

My first exposure to this whole thing was the old NES "Destiny of an Emperor" game which my friend rented way back when. We put alot of hours in to beat the game before he had to return it. I still recall the cool character portraits for Zhang Fei and Xiahou Dun in that game. Zhang Fei looked crazed and Xiahou Dun had that cool eyepatch, pirate look to him It was really fun finding as many characters to recruit in the game and levelling them up.

The next one I tried was "Romance of the Three Kingdoms II" on the SNES. Again, my friend rented it and we were putting in alot of hours playing hotseat on the campaign. It was fun enough that we both bought our own copies. He got it for the SNES and I got it for the Genesis.

Of the more recent RotTK games, I bought XI and IX. RotTK IX was the one (I think) where you had a mode where you could select a character and play solely as him. Try to join a faction, work your way up, be a governor, general, etc.

RotTK XI was a big departure I thought with the combat systems. I had control of the duels? Never mind, I'll send Lu Bu in. But the biggest departure was the strategic map w/ turn-based play. The map showed EVERYTHING. Army movements, battles, etc., and it wasn't limited to just the action in one province. It was a real meat grinder with your armies. I still recall a campaign I had with a made up leader who started South of Ma Teng during the Yellow Turban Rebellion. It was fun being another factor in the chaos and fighting the huge alliance led by He Jin.

[Alpha OTS]

Everything I know about Romance of the Three Kingdoms I learned from playing Dynasty Warriors 2 through 5. Which probably makes me pretty uneducated on the subject. Although I thought 5 was the most "educational" of the bunch with the more coherent musou story modes and all the "encyclopedia" extras.

Dian Wei was always my favorite. Him and his giant axe.

[Gubaba]

I probably would've been better prepared if I had played the games first...Even now, I was struggling to remember who Dian Wei was...one of Cao Cao's general's, IIRC.

That's one of the more difficult aspects of the book...there are HUNDREDS of people mentioned, and sorting out who's who really seems like a job for the specialist, rather than the general reader.

The middle of the book, though, is amazing. Especially the Battle at Red Cliffs. THAT's something I'd like to play a game of...but only if you could play out the hysterical scene where Kongming taunts Cao Cao's army in order for them to shoot arrows at him and his men. He then collects all the arrows, has his men bow and say , "Thank you," and goes back to camp.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I read it. And yeah, I do find it boring after Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Zhao Yun dies. Heck, I wish Lu Bu didn't die before 20% of the story was up as well.

I think most people who have read the book will go WTF?!?!?! when they play Dynasty Warriors and see Zhang He!

[jonwayne]

i'd always wondered why it is called romance of the 3 kingdom when there's nothing romantic about the story.

[Duke Togo]

Zhang Fei was always my favorite.

[Duke Togo]

i'd always wondered why it is called romance of the 3 kingdom when there's nothing romantic about the story.

"Romance" has more than one definition.

A long fictitious tale of heroes and extraordinary or mysterious events, usually set in a distant time or place.

[Shun]

I probably would've been better prepared if I had played the games first...Even now, I was struggling to remember who Dian Wei was...one of Cao Cao's general's, IIRC.

That's one of the more difficult aspects of the book...there are HUNDREDS of people mentioned, and sorting out who's who really seems like a job for the specialist, rather than the general reader.

The middle of the book, though, is amazing. Especially the Battle at Red Cliffs. THAT's something I'd like to play a game of...but only if you could play out the hysterical scene where Kongming taunts Cao Cao's army in order for them to shoot arrows at him and his men. He then collects all the arrows, has his men bow and say , "Thank you," and goes back to camp.

hundreds of people coupled with so many events (further complicated by fiction/fact)... very confusing indeed

BTW, u know the "borrowing" of arrows is fiction right? So is the "Empty Fort strategy", both are part of the many stories made to glorify Kong Ming. The fiction vs fact ratio is very high actually...

For e.g. if the Empty Fort was real, it wasnt logical because Sima Yi might be suspicious of a trap but still it would be logical and expected to at least send in a small troop to check out the "empty fort". Why would he bring such a huge army only to retreat without even finding out if there's indeed a trap? It doesn't make sense. Thus my comment that although the stories were interesting, they are kind of shallow if we realised how it didn't make sense.

The "arrow borrowing" story is probably borrowed from the real event where Sun Quan went deep into Cao Cao's camp on a boat and got rained upon by arrows from the Cao camp. Sun Quan not only displayed his bravery but quick thinking and gained Cao Cao's praise in the famous saying "One should have a son like Sun Quan" (rough translation lol).

The last part of the story introduces some capable characters but are no way near as exciting as their predecessors .

Edited March 16, 2008 by Shun

[Warmaker]

Seeing Zhang He in a fairy-like appearance in Dynasty Warriors was a letdown for me. In the RotTK games, he was such a good, balanced, all-around effective, bada** general to have.

[Roy Focker]

Playing the games do count right?

I read parts of it here and there. You can find a copy online. Stilll way too many characters to keep track of. Just like the game. At least the game is illustrated.

[Gubaba]

BTW, u know the "borrowing" of arrows is fiction right? So is the "Empty Fort strategy", both are part of the many stories made to glorify Kong Ming. The fiction vs fact ratio is very high actually...

For e.g. if the Empty Fort was real, it wasnt logical because Sima Yi might be suspicious of a trap but still it would be logical and expected to at least send in a small troop to check out the "empty fort". Why would he bring such a huge army only to retreat without even finding out if there's indeed a trap? It doesn't make sense. Thus my comment that although the stories were interesting, they are kind of shallow if we realised how it didn't make sense.

The "arrow borrowing" story is probably borrowed from the real event where Sun Quan went deep into Cao Cao's camp on a boat and got rained upon by arrows from the Cao camp. Sun Quan not only displayed his bravery but quick thinking and gained Cao Cao's praise in the famous saying "One should have a son like Sun Quan" (rough translation lol).

I don't care if it was real or not...it was still thoroughly awesome!

Playing the games do count right?

I read parts of it here and there. You can find a copy online. Stilll way too many characters to keep track of. Just like the game. At least the game is illustrated.

Cripes..."I haven't read the book but I've seen the movie" is pretty common, but how many times do you hear, "I haven't read the book but I've played the game."?

And yeah...too many characters. After I finish Three Kingdoms, I'm moving on to Outlaws of the Marsh

(AKA The Water Margin), the story of 108 heroes. 108??? I'm simultaneously looking forward to and dreading that one...

[Duke Togo]

Back in, oh, '90 I guess it was, I wrote a paper in history class on the Three Kingdoms period writing directly out of the original RotTK instruction book.

[Gubaba]

Back in, oh, '90 I guess it was, I wrote a paper in history class on the Three Kingdoms period writing directly out of the original RotTK instruction book.

I hope you got a good grade on it...

(And I wish I'd thought of that...I never played Three Kingdoms, but I really liked Nobunaga's Ambition...could've done the same thing, mumble, mumble...)

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Back in, oh, '90 I guess it was, I wrote a paper in history class on the Three Kingdoms period writing directly out of the original RotTK instruction book.

I wonder if some kid in school who first got exposed to ROTK by playing Dynasty Warriors is writing some paper for history project and is including things like "Zhang He was famous for wearing pink tutus and wielding claws in battle and Lu Bu's weapon was called Sky Scorcher...."

[Duke Togo]

I hope you got a good grade on it...

(And I wish I'd thought of that...I never played Three Kingdoms, but I really liked Nobunaga's Ambition...could've done the same thing, mumble, mumble...)

I did, and I almost spent countless hours playing Nobunaga's Ambition. Its a shame that series never got the attention in the US that RotTK did.

[Warmaker]

I hope you got a good grade on it...

(And I wish I'd thought of that...I never played Three Kingdoms, but I really liked Nobunaga's Ambition...could've done the same thing, mumble, mumble...)

I did, and I almost spent countless hours playing Nobunaga's Ambition. Its a shame that series never got the attention in the US that RotTK did.

Speaking of Nobunaga's Ambition, I just found out that an official US release was made late in 2007 for Nobunaga's Ambition: Rise to Power. I'm going to swing by Gamestop after I get off work and get my copy for my trusty PS2.

It has been a LONG time since the last Nobunaga's Ambition was released in the USA. Even then, Koei for some reason has a very spotty record of releasing the NA series in the USA compared to the RotTK series. The RotTK series may be behind in the USA compared to the Japanese releases, but it never skips a version which sits at RotTK XI right now. Compared to Nobunaga's Ambition, the only US releases I have ever seen or heard of:

NA2 on the old NES from the late 80s or very early 90s.

NA: Lord of Darkness on the SNES during the mid 90s.

And that's it. It's been more than 10 years since that SNES release for a new NA game to come out in the USA. I've always been disappointed by it since I always figured Samurai would be instantly recognizable in the USA, more than the figures from the RotTK setting. As for me, I've watched alot of Samurai shows / taiga dramas from one of the channels in the San Francisco Bay Area. My favorite was "Nobunaga: King of Zipangu"

Hey, speaking of Samurai, recall the Ninja craze of the 80s?

Edited March 17, 2008 by Warmaker

[Duke Togo]

American Ninja!

The only Nobunaga game I ever owned was the original. I rented 2 on several occasions, and I've since played the SNES release on an emulator.

Speaking on ninja, I don't know how this slipped past on the old NES, but the assassination animation in the original game was awesome.

Edited March 17, 2008 by Duke Togo

[Warmaker]

How about these 80s Ninja shows?

The Master - TV series. Had the badguy from The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly as the main guy.

Ninja III: The Domination - Ninja movie! I don't recall Ninja I or II at all during the 80s, but I saw this one lots of times on TV!

American Ninja - My Dad took me to see that in the theater in downtown San Francisco.

Of the Nobunaga's Ambition games released in the USA, I only owned Lord of Darkness for the SNES. For some reason, I felt NA2 on the NES was better.

I don't recall the assassination animations on the NES. Probably because all of my Ninjas were incompetent boobs.

Have you ever tried Creative Assembly's Shogun: Total War from around 2000? It was great for the armies, field combat, but I did miss the development, provincial details, and more expansive characters / character information from KOEI's NA series. One of the cool things was the various, short cut scenes from certain events by your agents. Priests (even Christian), Spies (internal security), Ninja. There could be cutscenes for the results of their actions, success or failure. There were maybe 2-3 variations for failure or success. A few were even hilarious, especially for failures.

Incompetent Ninja + This new thing called Explosives = Ensuing Hilarity

Some of the units were great fun. Warrior Monks were devastating, especially due to the effects of morale. But the counter was being a Christian Daimyo. Then there were the expensive, powerful, but single-man Kensai.

The Mongol Invasion expansion pack introduced another setting to depict the Mongols arriving long before the Warring States period. Great fun fighting the landed Mongol forces. Their cavalry were quite nasty. It also introduced female spies / assassins also (Kunoichi?). They too had their own cutscenes for failure or success. The cool stuff was when these agents faced off with Ninja.

[Duke Togo]

How about these 80s Ninja shows?

The Master - TV series. Had the badguy from The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly as the main guy.

Ninja III: The Domination - Ninja movie! I don't recall Ninja I or II at all during the 80s, but I saw this one lots of times on TV!

American Ninja - My Dad took me to see that in the theater in downtown San Francisco.

Of the Nobunaga's Ambition games released in the USA, I only owned Lord of Darkness for the SNES. For some reason, I felt NA2 on the NES was better.

I don't recall the assassination animations on the NES. Probably because all of my Ninjas were incompetent boobs.

In the original game, your red ninja would pop up on his unsuspecting target, drive his sword down into his writhing body, and move it back and forth (making sure he was good and dead). I will say, in the original, I found ninja to be a bit overpowered. It was far too easy to eliminate your rivals this way.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Have you ever tried Creative Assembly's Shogun: Total War from around 2000? It was great for the armies, field combat, but

I played that. Mongol Light Calvary = HexXor! Kills everything with skirmish arrows and later charge.

I also edited the data file and made the one man Kensei take on tonnes of troops himself.

[Gubaba]

Hmmm...maybe this should be moved to the games section...

[Duke Togo]

Games section is for Macross games. We're in the right place.

[Warmaker]

I played that. Mongol Light Calvary = HexXor! Kills everything with skirmish arrows and later charge.

I also edited the data file and made the one man Kensei take on tonnes of troops himself.

There's lots of tricks in coming out on top against the powerful Mongol invasions. But the most successful involves time and space... delaying actions, making the Mongols pay for every victory, wear them down over time and distance, all before doing a final counteroffensive.

In Shogun Total War, it's easy since you're the Shogun in control of a unified Japan. Japan also is very hilly and mountainous. For the Japanese that are infantry oriented, that's a huge plus. Take advantage of the numerous hills and mountains of the interior of Japan, and you could really make the Mongols pay when they get further inland and away from the beaches and plains. In the plains and beaches, the Mongols are extremely tough. Their mobility and arrows will murder you. But in the steep inclines, mobility goes out the window, and things are more even. Your own ranged units will be more effective from elevated positions.

And then send those crazy No-Dachi equipped Samurai down the hillside once the Mongols are tired and engaged

In Medieval Total War, the faction you pick and your location plays a huge role. If you're based out of Eastern Europe, you're in for a hard time. The Mongols will arrive fresh with stack upon stack of troops. All good quality, all the "3 Gold Chevroned" experienced elites. Compare that to playing as England, France, or Spain, where the Mongols will be worn down by the time they arrive even in Central Europe.

I've gotten used to dealing with cavalry-ranged-centric armies from all my playing in modified Rome Total War. I'm used to being the Romans with heavy infantry trying to come to terms with the horse archer and heavy cavalry based armies of the Parthians and later Persian Empires. I treated the Mongols with the same philosophy when I played Medieval Total War.

Speaking of the Total War games, there's tons of mods. I recall some people were working on a "Three Kingdoms" and "Sengoku Jidai" mods. Not sure how far along they are, but I have doubts. It sucks in the regard that some of us were hoping to see a "Sengoku Jidai" Total War game with the game engines they're using now, but I don't think Creative Assembly will ever go back again to the setting that made the Total War series a name to begin with.

[heavenly angel]

I only watched the anime series and it was pretty long and there were many deaths. I guess I am more of a romantic and I want to see more romance, enough fighting, and getting on with the point of the story and theme.

[Alpha OTS]

I only watched the anime series and it was pretty long and there were many deaths. I guess I am more of a romantic and I want to see more romance, enough fighting, and getting on with the point of the story and theme.

Wait, there was an anime? Did it use the Koei designs? Can anyone else comment on this?

[Southpaw Samurai]

Wait, there was an anime? Did it use the Koei designs? Can anyone else comment on this?

There's actually at least TWO and both are less over-the-top than Koei's (although I'd love to see a series based on Koei's designs and melodramatic touches... even if DID mean having a 'beautiful' Zhang He. After all, in many ways Dynasty Warriors is a reinvisioned version of the theater-like interpretations of the stories and characters, so it's actually not too far off, even if it's decidedly non-historical in its look).

The first is

, known in the english speaking world as 'Great Conquest: Romance of the Three Kingdoms' and has the late Pat Morita (Mr.Miyagi) narrating. I came across the VCD of it ages ago. It basically tells the story of Liu Bei getting in on the conflict with the Yellow Turbans up to Lu Bu's death, if I recall correctly. While it's apparently based on fuller series, this is the only part officially released in English. I couldn't quickly find a link to either the movie in its entirety nor even a more represented clip (the link is a fan-made montage), however.

And then there's this

, which has more of the story, but reflects a bit more traditional Japanese anime wackiness. I've only watched pieces of it on the Internet.

I still like the incredibly long live action series, even if you could probably read the books faster than watch it.

You can't find a media that DOESN'T have something Three Kingdoms related. Manga, anime, live action, music, video games, board games, card games (my favorite is this one where the instruction manual is in Engrish with gaps in gameplay logic, but can still be pieced together and be fun, especially as you have Lu Bu (as overpowered as in Dynasty Warriors) running amok, but also constantly being bribed away and betraying each of his current masters), etc... etc..... heck, I'd be surprised if there is ANY product category someone hasn't made a Three Kingdoms product for. I've even seen a Kong Ming (Zhuge Liang) phone which I now regret not getting.

Of course, Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu are almost their own industry individually....

Edited March 20, 2008 by Southpaw Samurai

[Gubaba]

I've even seen a Kong Ming (Zhuge Liang) phone which I now regret not getting.

What did it do...set fires to trap telemarketers?

[mpchi]

I read about half of the saga (novel), in Chinese too, but eventually lost interest to keep going. Its pretty good, but gets confusing and fluctuates a lot. Sometimes its very interesting, sometimes its very boring. And a lot of characters to remember to a point you really need a reference guide or something to figure out the relationships between each other. And quite often, important characters die an insignificant death.

In terms of anime. I've always remember(vaguely) this one show that I watched when little and really liked it. Its sort of an OVA or 3-4 part movie. The style is very anime-ish, and made in the 80s. Liu Bei dress in red & white typical cool looking main character look, while Zhuge Liang is very girly in this one in pale purple with girly make-up, like a transvestite. But its action packed and fun, not very accurate to the orginal source though. But I don't even know what the show is called anymore, and don't seem people know about this one. Its not the ones that other posts had mentioned here.

If you can read Chinese, or find translation for it somehow, there is an on-going manga/comic from Taiwan named The Ravages of Time that is very good. Pretty much Romance of Three Kingdoms, but tell it in a very different point of view, breaking the stereotype on a lot of these well known characters. The art is very good too, like a blend between Hong Kong style and Japanese manga, in black & white, but not one of those cheapy looking wannabes trying to rip off someone's drawing style. Highly recommended, and is pretty popular among the Chinese.

Edited March 21, 2008 by mpchi

[Gubaba]

I read about half of the saga (novel), in Chinese too, but eventually lost interest to keep going. Its pretty good, but gets confusing and fluctuates a lot. Sometimes its very interesting, sometimes its very boring. And a lot of characters to remember to a point you really need a reference guide or something to figure out the relationships between each other. And quite often, important characters die an insignificant death.

In terms of anime. I've always remember(vaguely) this one show that I watched when little and really liked it. Its sort of an OVA or 3-4 part movie. The style is very anime-ish, and made in the 80s. Liu Bei dress in red & white typical cool looking main character look, while Zhuge Liang is very girly in this one in pale purple with girly make-up, like a transvestite. But its action packed and fun, not very accurate to the orginal source though. But I don't even know what the show is called anymore, and don't seem people know about this one. Its not the ones that other posts had mentioned here.

If you can read Chinese, or find translation for it somehow, there is an on-going manga/comic from Taiwan named The Ravages of Time that is very good. Pretty much Romance of Three Kingdoms, but tell it in a very different point of view, breaking the stereotype on a lot of these well known characters. The art is very good too, like a blend between Hong Kong style and Japanese manga, in black & white, but not one of those cheapy looking wannabes trying to rip off someone's drawing style. Highly recommended, and is pretty popular among the Chinese.

You read it in Chinese? Wow...was it modernized, or was it all in 13th Century Chinese? Either way, I'm impressed!

As for the Ravages of Time, I've heard of it, and I'd like to see it...but I'm still about 20 chapters away from the end of the novel, and I'm already thinking, "Thanks, I've had enough." So it may be a few years before I get around to looking at it.

I saw the Japanese manga that the anime is based on, but it was done by the guy who drew "Iron Man 28," and was a little too cartoony for my taste. Plus, it didn't look terribly Chinese...