VF-2SS

[Mr March]

Maybe it would be easier if Mr. March just watched MII...

I think I might be forced to rent it. So confusing...

[misterryno]

I think I might be forced to rent it. So confusing...

It'll be worth it. At least I liked it.

[Mr March]

Based on my review of the video link, here's the new set:

[Mark Nguyen]

Nice, but I think the link shows that the acrobatic team (Fairie Squadron) is composed of only TWO colors of 2SS Valkyries, shown at 3:30-3:38 of the linked video above. They are trailing different COLOURS of light, but they are clearly only red and orange fighters.

Then, at 4:27, you can clearly see that Nexx's 2SS is light blue with white stripes; his usual fighter is the light grey with blue stripes you already have. Finally, at 4:28 and 4:40-4:42, you can see that the other 2SS SAP ships are light greenish compared to his plane. I'm willing to concede that this is a lighting issue and they're standard grey, but given what Fairie Squadron shows with their red lead and orange following fighters, it wouldn't surprise me if Nexx's squadron was light blue and light green in the same manner. Nexx's colours are clearly different than standard, though.

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that the "standard" colour schemes for the 2SS includes the coloured stripes down the sides of the leg. We only really see a non-SAP 2SS at two points: the opening, and the eyecatch. Neither seem to indicate a leg stripe, at 2:53 of the above video, or the end of this one:

Mark

Edited February 27, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[Mr March]

I've gone over the show for episode three and the fighters really only ever appear truly green for a single shot. The other times they are shown during the moon festival show, they appear bluish, as does everything during that segment in fact. Plus in the battle immediately following, Nexx's Valkyrie grey/blue and I'm not getting the impression he switched Valkyries. I'm thinking in this case, we're not looking at a special paint job.

ANyway, moving onward, I can see you're correct about the Acrobatic team. It's only red and orange. As for the stripe, I'm lost on that one. Sometimes it appears, sometimes it doesn't. Also, on the few colored pictures I've found on the internet, the leg stripes appear colored (see below). Anyway, here's a new picture which I hope is more accurate *crosses fingers*

[Sorata]

Just wanted to chime in that we thank you for your continued effort Mr March. I'll go pull out my DVDs of Macross II and look at them real quick. I have the US and Japanese release of it.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Sorata

[Sorata]

I've gone over the show for episode three and the fighters really only ever appear truly green for a single shot. The other times they are shown during the moon festival show, they appear bluish, as does everything during that segment in fact. Plus in the battle immediately following, Nexx's Valkyrie grey/blue and I'm not getting the impression he switched Valkyries. I'm thinking in this case, we're not looking at a special paint job.

ANyway, moving onward, I can see you're correct about the Acrobatic team. It's only red and orange. As for the stripe, I'm lost on that one. Sometimes it appears, sometimes it doesn't. Also, on the few colored pictures I've found on the internet, the leg stripes appear colored (see below). Anyway, here's a new picture which I hope is more accurate *crosses fingers*

Just reviewed the scenes in question and your right they only appear green in one shot in battroid form. The colors you did are spot on and your also right that the stripe appears and diappears throughout the show. At one point the Valkyrie piloted by Silvie in the crappy US Manga DVD release appears Maroon and not red but I am sure that was an error too like the constant on and off of the leg striping if you also notice the kite on Silvie's Valkyrie is clearly drawn on the wing but it is not colored and blends in with the wing paint color at 55:30 on the US DVD. Seems the crew painting the cells got lazy like with the on and off stipes. I think the new set you did is right on the money.

Here is some links to some nice Macross II VF-2SS model pics

http://members.shaw.ca/decepticon/nexus.htm

http://page.freett.com/stzip/vf_2b.htm

Edited February 27, 2008 by Sorata

[TheLoneWolf]

I wouldn't even bother including the acrobatic team, the animation in that scene is some of the worst in the entire series and to the best of my knowledge there's no published colored line art for them either. It would be like trying to create some logical line art from Macross' AnimeFriend episodes.

[Mark Nguyen]

I disagree - the animation isn't THAT great in the whole series, and is especially poor in episode 6 - and the finale is the LAST place you want your B team..! But the Marduk attack later in the Festival episode is somewhat better than average - Nexx using his super-duper cannon was a nice highlight. You have to remember that overall, MII was light on the mecha action, and was often criticized for that and the fact that what you saw was way too fast.

Anyway, Mr. Mark thinks Mr. March is getting much closer, and is continually producing good stuff for the M3. I still disagree about Nexx's demo plane - it's clearly a white stripe on a bluish hull we see, where his standard plane we see later (which is also featured in episode 1) is blue-striped on the usual whitish hull. I think he swapped planes just like the rest of Fairie Squadron did when they went to save Sylvie in the Metal Siren - among things, his squadron was firing multicoloured lights during the demo, and not white beams o' death. You could argue that it's a simple flip of the switch to toggle either mode, but I'd rather think he simply jumped into his standard fighter which was loaded with active armament instead of lightshow-friendly twizzlers and lightballs (which he expended anyway). But hey, it's your website. I'm just calling what I see.

As for the white and yellow plane you linked above, I think that's from the old Entertainment Bible book released that also contains the only images of the VF-1R series from the Macross 2036 game - the paint patterns are the same. EIther way, the EB books contain mostly re-traced lineart that was colored by their own artists; I'm not sure if it's "official" color work.

Mark

Edited February 27, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[Zinjo]

I have no idea what that means, but I'm going to assume that the Red colored VF-2SS with white stripes (along with the blue, green and yellow colored Valkyires with white stripes) are the acrobatic team.

As for the other colors, I'm going to stick to the greey/blue hulls and colored stripes. Based on the video link, I don't think the SAP VF-2SS fighter were meant to be a different color. It's probably just the lighting environment.

What I said in the first place...

[Zinjo]

It is most likely Nexx and crew switchec planes, since the acrobatic segment of the show was over and Wendy Ryder's concert was starting, so it is conceivable that the teams were already in the hanger by then.

The Marduk attack was on the mock up metal siren, not the acrobatic teams...

[Mr March]

Sorata

You're welcome and thank you for all your help with the Game&Advanced Section. It wouldn't have been possible without your input.

Yes, the green appears to be a one off shot and I'm not really that concerned about it. The stripe is the big issue. At keeps appearing and disappearing. I don't know what to do. I might have to ultimately make a judgment call myself, like I did with the SDF-1 (blue feet or white feet; hell, just go blue, hehehe).

I didn't notice the kite colored over on the Red unit. I'll have to make note of that for the fighter mode.

I've seen Cheng's model before. It's very good.

TheLoneWolf

No, I think we're okay with the acrobatic team. They unquestionably exist because they are part of the script and mentioned by name. Also, the Valkyrie fighters are shown consistently as one red and three orange fighters in multiple shots throughout the air show sequence.

Mark Nguyen

Well, we can include that variant but it seems questionable from my point of view. Regardles, I'm much more concerned about the main hull colors than anything else. The stripe seems to be the only issue. Sometimes it appears in the animation, sometimes it doesn't. As I've said to Sorata, I might just have to judge one way or the other, or include a striped/non-striped variant just to show both.

At any rate, your input is very much appreciated. I've watched the first 3 episodes twice on Veoh, so I'm much better versed than I was, but I'm going to still need help with stats if they exist. What I'll likely do is post a preliminary profile and let you guys picks it over here in this thread. That's probably the easiest and most efficient way to build it properly.

Zinjthulhu

Which part? You were incorrect about the Acrobatic team, but I believe you're right about the grey/blue hull color in lighting conditions. We'll assume you meant the latter

[Mark Nguyen]

Say, when in the animation IS the 2SS visible with the stripe? I thought the only time we see them without SAP is in episode 3, and at then only in demo colors. The OP and eyecatch planes are without the leg stripes...

I dug up the old Mecha Press magazine which contains a lot of conjecture based on the first two episodes. The firmest numbers listed there are height and apogee motor number, which may or may not have been counted manually as I'm not sure where this information would have come from otherwise. My TIAS Macross II book is still in storage somewhere, so I can't access that until I can find it. Can't wait to see your work on the VF-XX and that GERWALK fighter thing, from episode 5.

I also found the Palladium books - and did I mention how much they SUCK? They tried to make five distinct Valkyrie types out of the two designs we see, for crissakes!

Mark

[Zinjo]

Say, when in the animation IS the 2SS visible with the stripe? I thought the only time we see them without SAP is in episode 3, and at then only in demo colors. The OP and eyecatch planes are without the leg stripes...

I dug up the old Mecha Press magazine which contains a lot of conjecture based on the first two episodes. The firmest numbers listed there are height and apogee motor number, which may or may not have been counted manually as I'm not sure where this information would have come from otherwise. My TIAS Macross II book is still in storage somewhere, so I can't access that until I can find it. Can't wait to see your work on the VF-XX and that GERWALK fighter thing, from episode 5.

I also found the Palladium books - and did I mention how much they SUCK? They tried to make five distinct Valkyrie types out of the two designs we see, for crissakes!

Mark

TIAS doesn't have any listed stats from what I saw (they may be informally listed in the Japanese descriptions, however I don't recall seeing any numbers.).

I believe you are referring to the AGA-1JF. I too like that little gunship, but always felt it should have had gunpods to go with the missile weaponry...

Edited February 27, 2008 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Got through watching Macross II, my second time in about a decade. Ugh. Anyway, discussions of poor quality aside, I did notice the green highlighted VF-2SS fighters in the last episode of the show, so it's definitely a canon variant. As for the Metal Siren, I don't know what the hell the creators were thinking with that one. It's abilities are not explained or hinted at anywhere and it comes across as this big dues ex machina mecha just to give Nexx some time in the spot light (since his character is virtually forgotten near the end anyway). Whatever that "special ability" the Metal Siren had, it certainly didn't appear as any kind of pin-point barrier/omni barrier effect, especially since Macross II flat out ignores that technology, never once displaying it or mentioning it through the entire Macross II series. I suppose as fans we could reconcile the Metal Siren effect using past established Macross fictional technology (which works nice continuity-wise), but IMO, it's far more plot contrivance than anything else specifically.

[VF5SS]

Well, if all else fails you can always measure the 1/100 kit and extrapolate. Of course, there must be stats somewhere (maybe on the box or in the manual) for it to be a 1/100 scale kit.

[Sorata]

Got through watching Macross II, my second time in about a decade. Ugh. Anyway, discussions of poor quality aside, I did notice the green highlighted VF-2SS fighters in the last episode of the show, so it's definitely a canon variant. As for the Metal Siren, I don't know what the hell the creators were thinking with that one. It's abilities are not explained or hinted at anywhere and it comes across as this big dues ex machina mecha just to give Nexx some time in the spot light (since his character is virtually forgotten near the end anyway). Whatever that "special ability" the Metal Siren had, it certainly didn't appear as any kind of pin-point barrier/omni barrier effect, especially since Macross II flat out ignores that technology, never once displaying it or mentioning it through the entire Macross II series. I suppose as fans we could reconcile the Metal Siren effect using past established Macross fictional technology (which works nice continuity-wise), but IMO, it's far more plot contrivance than anything else specifically.

Seems to me the Metal Sirens Special ability was akin to a electrical discharge. As you see it sweep by enemy mecha they are unaffected by it as I would expect as most craft are shielded to prevent such things happening to them in lightning storm and the upper atmosphere. However the inside of the Marduk ship was clearly un shielded as it was affected and the sound fx used in that scene reminds me of when I have heard electronic equipment over load and burn out violently (thats what i get for toying with a circuit board). On a note I cant stand Palladiums liberal use of info that they themselves create however at 1:33:02 on the DVD of Macross II you see a Variable Fighter in battroid mode on the deck of a ship firing at the enemy it appears after the green striped VF-2SS Variant. The design is clearly not a VF-2SS so until my artbook for Macross II and the 10 volumes of the Viz Comic arrives that I ordered the only place I had to look at line art for Macross II was the RPG books and it is definately the VF-XX Zentran Fighter (atleast that is what the RPG calls it which may be wrong) this is the only scene I remember it in and i knew it existed in the RPG but never realized it was in the film.

If Mr March had never started this topic I wouldnt have rekindled my intrest in Macross II and ordered all the comics and artbook just for art of the VF-2SS (or Silvie art )

[Mr March]

My apologies Sorata

I actually noticed the Zentran fighter in three different scenes in Macross II, though I knew what to look for ahead of time.

[Knight26]

You mean the VF-XX is Mac2 canon and appears, screencap, screencap

[Mark Nguyen]

It's in there somewhere alright - I think in the too-brief battle scenes of episode 6. In battroid mode, one fires into space from the hull of a ship and then takes off. A grand total of two seconds screen time, being generous.

Mark

[Mr March]

As Mark Nguyen has posted, the appearance of the Zentran Fighter is very brief. It appears in both Fighter and Battroid modes, but only in the most brief of glimpses. Just watch the final episode closely and you'll see it. It should appear three times in total (if I'm remembering correctly) but no more than a few seconds of total on-screen time.

[Sorata]

If I remember correctly it also isnt in the center of the frame in most shots. I'll look when i get a chance and put the times it appears below. If you dont have the dvd if i can i will snap a pic of it off my TV the image might be jagged but that isnt due to my photo skills it is due to the quality of the film and the fact i will snap it of a 52" DLP with a digital camera and have to put it on photobucket.

1:33:02 in Battroid form shooting from the ships surface.

I will look for the other two later when i have more time as they are hard to spot and i just pulled a 12hr shift i have to go rest for now.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Sorata

[TheLoneWolf]

Should the acrobatic team have red sensor pieces (assuming that's what they are) on their heads? From this picture, it seems that the sensor is usually similiar in color to the stripe.

Yes yes, this is from the Viz manga, but all their covers appear to be made from official marketing materials and cropped screenshots. From the look of the manga, Viz spent little manpower on it, so I doubt this is a Viz color scheme. Contractually, the covers may have been limited to what Big West provided them.

edit: I mean manga, not comic

Edited March 6, 2008 by TheLoneWolf

[Mr March]

AFAIK, the red and orange colored acrobatic team valkyries are never shown in Battroid mode, so I have no clue what the color is for their forehead sensors. Regardless, I know for certain the Macross II mecha don't use a leg stripe, at least, not according to the anime itself. Further, all the official models and pictures of the VF-2SS show it has a white colored hull. As others have previously mentioned, everything in the Macross II anime has a blue tint to it due to the animation techniques used, so the VF-2SS should actually be white. So that Viz picture wouldn't be canon, even if it is official.

Anyway, here is the final colors I've chosen:

[TheLoneWolf]

Looks good to me, glad to see you went with the white hull over the blue tinted one. It just never looked right to me.

[Zinjo]

So that Viz picture wouldn't be canon, even if it is official.

Anyway, here is the final colors I've chosen:

That coloring could be based on the B-Club cover of the VF-2SS which was essentially a low viz color scheme. However the B-Club picture didn't sport any color, other than the blue grey and light grey for the striping and insignia.

Considering both the VF-1 and VF-4 were both white it is reasonable to conclude the VF-2SS would also be white.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Whatever that "special ability" the Metal Siren had, it certainly didn't appear as any kind of pin-point barrier/omni barrier effect, especially since Macross II flat out ignores that technology, never once displaying it or mentioning it through the entire Macross II series.

Macross II came out before macross plus though. So PPB on a valk wasn't a known thing in the universe when II came out.

[Zinjo]

Macross II came out before macross plus though. So PPB on a valk wasn't a known thing in the universe when II came out.

Mac II is an alternate universe to the Nue continuity, hence the use of railguns over the directed energy weaponry. It also takes place some 30 years after Mac Plus, so the idea of a PBB on a fighter would not necessarily be exclusive to the Nue continuity.

The idea of automated attack bits came out in Mac II, whereas Mac Plus took that type of idea one step further with a fully AI controlled fighter in the Ghost X9.

Which then brings up the spectre of, has Kawamori seen Mac II, despite his public denials. Only he knows that for sure and he hasn't changed his public story yet.

I tend to suspect he has, what creator wouldn't see how a different production team interprets their original ideas? However to avoid any comparisons between his work and that one, he says he's never seen it. Which can be considered prudent.

[yellowlightman]

The idea of automated attack bits came out in Mac II, whereas Mac Plus took that type of idea one step further with a fully AI controlled fighter in the Ghost X9.

Which then brings up the spectre of, has Kawamori seen Mac II, despite his public denials. Only he knows that for sure and he hasn't changed his public story yet.

I tend to suspect he has, what creator wouldn't see how a different production team interprets their original ideas? However to avoid any comparisons between his work and that one, he says he's never seen it. Which can be considered prudent.

Those are some pretty big assumptions. For starters, the attack bits in MacII can probably be traced to the bits/fin funnels in Gundam. Those first appeared in 1979, and I think it's pretty well known that Kawamori was a Gundam fan in his younger years?

Not to mention the idea that Mac+'s Ghost Fighter has origins in the attack bits idea is a bit silly, computer controlled planes aren't exactly a new idea in the real world and I'd say it's safe to say Kawamori probably drew more inspiration from real world technology and ideas than from other anime.

[Mr March]

As I said, if we were attempting to somehow unify the continuity of Macross II with the rest of the Macross franchise, perhaps I could see the Metal Siren special ability as some kind of variation of the PPB system even if it's anachronistic (production -wise) with Macross Plus. Otherwise, it comes across as plot device.

Examining each continuity separately, I sure don't see any relation between the Auto Attack Bits and the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus. The Ghost X-9 is clearly both a conceptual and design descendant of the QF-3000E Ghost from the original SDF Macross (the original Ghost itself being simply an advanced version of unmanned aircraft used in modern militaries). As for Kawamori himself, there is almost nothing to suggest his Valkyries post-Flashback 2012 used any influence from Macross II at all. The Kawamori Valkyries don't utilize design motifs from the Macross II mecha and the technology doesn't adopt rail guns or uber-beam cannons. If Macross Frontier adopts such technologies, they can certainly be logical extensions of established Macross technology, as has already been speculated in other threads regarding the Vajra cannon and the VF-25 cannon from the anime/manga. Fold Boosters and fighter-scale pin-point barriers certainly have ties directly to SDF Macross with no lineage to Macross II (especially since Macross II basically dropped barrier systems entirely). Battroid arm-mounted shields, a Kawamori invention (perhaps also inspired by Gundam, but most likely created to utilize excess Fighter hull in the Battroid mode), are still used in the mecha of Macross Frontier.

[Zinjo]

Those are some pretty big assumptions. For starters, the attack bits in MacII can probably be traced to the bits/fin funnels in Gundam. Those first appeared in 1979, and I think it's pretty well known that Kawamori was a Gundam fan in his younger years?

The assumptions you mention are yours not mine.

The AAB's pre-date Mac Plus' Ghost X9 and it wouldn't surprise me if those bits were indeed inspired by the Fin Funnels from Char's Counterattack. Though with so little translated about Mac II, we don't know what inspired the producers to create them at this point.

Not to mention the idea that Mac+'s Ghost Fighter has origins in the attack bits idea is a bit silly, computer controlled planes aren't exactly a new idea in the real world and I'd say it's safe to say Kawamori probably drew more inspiration from real world technology and ideas than from other anime.

I specifically worded my comments to avoid the idea that SK took the idea of the Ghost from Mac II. We are all well aware that there are plenty of sources he could have taken his inspiration from.

As I said, if we were attempting to somehow unify the continuity of Macross II with the rest of the Macross franchise, perhaps I could see the Metal Siren special ability as some kind of variation of the PPB system even if it's anachronistic (production -wise) with Macross Plus. Otherwise, it comes across as plot device.

The only way to do that is to change the back story of Mac II and then change the dialogue to mach it. Things like mecha development would need to be changed as well as the designation of the Valkyrie II series of fighters (with the VF-4 being the successor to the VF-1, no VF-2 would have been deployed).

The divergence in development design of the fighters is another issue that would need to be addressed. Of course the SDF in the show could not be the Macross and the world they live on could not be Earth.

Examining each continuity separately, I sure don't see any relation between the Auto Attack Bits and the Ghost X-9 in Macross Plus.

There isn't any, outside of coincidence and that the AAB's predate the Ghost by a year. SK had been peddling his top gun story for a few years prior to Mac Plus and it most likely predated Mac II as well. Whether it included an Ai controlled fighter initially, we don't know.

Granted my comments on SK's possibility of actually seeing Mac II may have confused some into believing some sort of unification argument was being initiated.

[VF5SS]

Well I got my kit and the only stats for the VF-2SS are on the Ishtar poster/ instructions. I think the length is 14.5 meters, the weight is 19.1 tons, and takeoff weight is 25.6 tons.

[Mr March]

Well, it's something. I'll add these figures into the profile. Thanks AC.

[VF5SS]

I should try to scan that part of the poster as there's a little blurb about how the VF-2 relates to the VF-1.

[Sorata]

How is the project going Mr March?