Future Ground Wars

[JELEINEN]

i still thought my idea was better....just nuke the place if it's on the enemy's turf...

Why bother with nukes? Just drop rocks on them. Wait a couple decades for the dust to settle back down and then you have a perfectly usable planet again. No radiation to clean up.

[Lightning]

i still thought my idea was better....just nuke the place if it's on the enemy's turf...

Why bother with nukes? Just drop rocks on them. Wait a couple decades for the dust to settle back down and then you have a perfectly usable planet again. No radiation to clean up.

can we drop a colony instead? (i mean, if we're gonna go big we hafta go BIG!)

[VF-18S Hornet]

I tend to agree that just because we don't see Destroids in M+ and M7, doesn't automatically mean there are no Destroids being used by the 2040s'.

  We all know that the Destroids relative lack of mobility makes them easy targets against faster airborne mecha.

Graham

There is one way to remedy that By making advanced and powerfull destroids that are more faster than the orginals that uses pulse fire rifles instead of munition shells Z(bullets leave that for the head unit) A shoulder mounted beam weapon for long range sniper attacks. And some freaking hands for pete's sake for hand to hand combat. also make their armor interchangable to accomidate certain types of environment for example, Fast packs boosters or a special 0G armor for space battles, when on ground a leg booster and booster backpack to perform a tactical booster jump to surprose the enemy, addtional shoulder mounted missile lauchers and so on.

Edited October 27, 2003 by VF-18S Hornet

[VF-18S Hornet]

i still thought my idea was better....just nuke the place if it's on the enemy's turf...

Why bother with nukes? Just drop rocks on them. Wait a couple decades for the dust to settle back down and then you have a perfectly usable planet again. No radiation to clean up.

can we drop a colony instead? (i mean, if we're gonna go big we hafta go BIG!)

Okay Lighting 06 this not Mobile Suit Gundam, this is Macross. Besides I think Kawamorii would probaly get sued for copyright infringment. We wouldn't want that. Would we?

[VF-18S Hornet]

Personally, I would not have liked to have been a Destroid Pliot during Space War 1. Life expectancy was probably measured in seconds, not minutes 

Graham

I would have wanted to be a Monster pilot or gunner, I don't remember any of them get destroyed

Isn't the VB-6 in service in 2040????? That would be an effective ground unit

I've just been rewatching my AnimEigo box set and although I don't remember which episode it is in, I'm sure there is an episode somewhere in the first half of the series, where you do see a Monster being destroyed.

Can anybody help out which ep it is?

Graham

I believe it was that episope that first introduced Max Jenuis and Hayao Kakizaki, episode 8 Sweet Sixteen (I think that was the only title HG Didn't change if not please don't fault me fro it beacuse I don't have a Macross episode guide)

[Vinnie]

Lemmie just clarify some assumptions I'm making before responding the question.

We are discussing ground warfare here correct?

The objective of the ground combat is to sieze, defend, or claim territory?

The majority of territories worth contesting will be semi-urbanized and populated?

Of these, ones of interest will probably have a populace of humanoid creatures whose adults are up to 2m tall?

If the answer to the above is yes than there is only one solution for ground combat:

INFANTRY

If we wish to fight wars for population centers or areas of dense terrain in a conventional manner (taking objectives by force no NBC or nanobot armies,) 10 years from now, 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now, we will call upon the Queen of Battle, the Infantry. Soldiers on foot, be they AI, proxy alien, or powered armor mobile infantry (ref. Heinlin) are the only way to hold real estate. Artillery/Fire Support destroys enemy formations, Armor spearheads attacks, everything else is supplementary to the mission of the infantry: taking and holding ground. The Variable Fighters and destroids are some mix of the armor and artillery, and in a major population center, could do little to enforce the UN Spacy's will on the people. They would perhaps become a liability, as I'm sure man portable anti-...anti-...anti-giant-anime-robot weapons have developed in parallel to their mecha counterparts.

Macross 7 displays a canonical example of why soldiers on foot will always be neccessary for these types of situations. The Varauta were able to evade the defenses of the Macross 7 fleet and wage an effective guerilla campaign against the UN from within City 7. They couldn't be dealt with or removed by sending hordes of VF-11s into the city. Nor were the police destroids the way to fight them. Rather, these destroids supported the actions of the police security forces trying to eliminate them.

If the UN was trying to quell a rebellion (which seems to happen a lot for a nation with such Utopian origins) it couldn't do so by parking a Wing of VFs in the capital city. That'd be as effective as the United States trying to stabilize Iraq* by sending the 1st Armor Division to Bahgdad and parking an M1 at every interesection. It's intimidating, but the troops cannot remove guerilla forces or provide security to the people and would be at the mercy of man-portable anti-tank weapons, obstacles, and ambushes

The future ground wars of the UN will be fought by the combined arms team. Fleet to establish space dominance and lend fire and logistical support, VFs to establish air dominance, conduct precision attacks, or fight battles against other "armored" forces. Finally, the infantry will be there, to take objectives, provide security, kick down doors, and do the dirty grunt work to hold the ground.

*just assume for discussion sake that this is truly the military mission in Iraq so we can leave the political discussion out of the conversation. I only wanted to cite an example of how an occupation force despite a highly successful armored thrust and bombing campaign cannot hope to effect change and hold that territory without putting troops on the ground.

[Nied]

Lemmie just clarify some assumptions I'm making before responding the question.

We are discussing ground warfare here correct?

The objective of the ground combat is to sieze, defend, or claim territory?

The majority of territories worth contesting will be semi-urbanized and populated?

Of these, ones of interest will probably have a populace of humanoid creatures whose adults are up to 2m tall?

If the answer to the above is yes than there is only one solution for ground combat:

INFANTRY

If we wish to fight wars for population centers or areas of dense terrain in a conventional manner (taking objectives by force no NBC or nanobot armies,) 10 years from now, 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now, we will call upon the Queen of Battle, the Infantry. Soldiers on foot, be they AI, proxy alien, or powered armor mobile infantry (ref. Heinlin) are the only way to hold real estate. Artillery/Fire Support destroys enemy formations, Armor spearheads attacks, everything else is supplementary to the mission of the infantry: taking and holding ground. The Variable Fighters and destroids are some mix of the armor and artillery, and in a major population center, could do little to enforce the UN Spacy's will on the people. They would perhaps become a liability, as I'm sure man portable anti-...anti-...anti-giant-anime-robot weapons have developed in parallel to their mecha counterparts.

Macross 7 displays a canonical example of why soldiers on foot will always be neccessary for these types of situations. The Varauta were able to evade the defenses of the Macross 7 fleet and wage an effective guerilla campaign against the UN from within City 7. They couldn't be dealt with or removed by sending hordes of VF-11s into the city. Nor were the police destroids the way to fight them. Rather, these destroids supported the actions of the police security forces trying to eliminate them.

If the UN was trying to quell a rebellion (which seems to happen a lot for a nation with such Utopian origins) it couldn't do so by parking a Wing of VFs in the capital city. That'd be as effective as the United States trying to stabilize Iraq* by sending the 1st Armor Division to Bahgdad and parking an M1 at every interesection. It's intimidating, but the troops cannot remove guerilla forces or provide security to the people and would be at the mercy of man-portable anti-tank weapons, obstacles, and ambushes

The future ground wars of the UN will be fought by the combined arms team. Fleet to establish space dominance and lend fire and logistical support, VFs to establish air dominance, conduct precision attacks, or fight battles against other "armored" forces. Finally, the infantry will be there, to take objectives, provide security, kick down doors, and do the dirty grunt work to hold the ground.

*just assume for discussion sake that this is truly the military mission in Iraq so we can leave the political discussion out of the conversation. I only wanted to cite an example of how an occupation force despite a highly successful armored thrust and bombing campaign cannot hope to effect change and hold that territory without putting troops on the ground.

Too true.

My one caveat would be that the UN armed forces primary foe even after Space War One is some ten meters tall. Thus standard sized infantry might not play as big a role as it does now.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Too true.

My one caveat would be that the UN armed forces primary foe even after Space War One is some ten meters tall. Thus standard sized infantry might not play as big a role as it does now.

yeah, thinking that way, a power suit or destroid would make more sense in that kind of application, to fight in cities. but i think UN Spacy would still use Valks as a type of Infantry fighting in open steppes or plains, or even mountainous terrain. why not? they could use their full compliment of weapons without fear of collateral damage.

[Anubis]

What kind of equipment would UN Spacy's (Or UN Marines rather) have for the infantry troops? I'd figure they would they just be decked out starship troopers style. Support Vehicles of course, Power armor maybe, and other stuff. Maybe some remote drones.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

probably either some advance destroids or Valks in Battroid as Armor, The Ground Pounders in power armor of some kind, definately VF's for Close Air Support, maybe some orbital support, like the Satellites guarding earth in M+ as indirect fire....

[Vinnie]

Too true. 

My one caveat would be that the UN armed forces primary foe even after Space War One is some ten meters tall.  Thus standard sized infantry might not play as big a role as it does now.

yeah, thinking that way, a power suit or destroid would make more sense in that kind of application, to fight in cities. but i think UN Spacy would still use Valks as a type of Infantry fighting in open steppes or plains, or even mountainous terrain. why not? they could use their full compliment of weapons without fear of collateral damage.

Well that's what contemporary armies do with tanks. On open terrain you lead with armor, dense or urban terrain you lead with infantry. The two still work hand-in-hand in both instances, but your primary arm changes with METT-TC (Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops, Time, Civillians) On a Zjentohlauedy colony or ship, the scale of the terrain would make it practically open terrain to human forces and thus the VFs and Destroids would be your primary arm.

While there is an importance to having the 10m tall humanoid fighting machines because of the existence of full sized Zjentohlauedy and their colonies off earth. Many of the uprisings that occur in the M3 to Macross Plus timeline are on 2m tall humanoid planets. If a world like Zola or Eden was occupied, it would take human sized troops to recapture it. Zjentohlauedy would have had no way to really occupy Terra should they have chose to do so during the 1st Space War. Their only option was to glass the planet.

Even post SW1, the use of human infantry will be critical unless the UN Spacy truly believes that it can break a nation's will to fight through strategic/precision bombing alone.

[Skull-1]

However they do it...they're going to need a better weapon than a GU-11. When it's out of ammo it's out. You can't reload on the fly. The Zentraedi do not have this handicap, it appears.

Frankly, without overwhelming firepower--close air support is a must--the humans are at a major disadvantage.

[imode]

However they do it...they're going to need a better weapon than a GU-11. When it's out of ammo it's out. You can't reload on the fly. The Zentraedi do not have this handicap, it appears.

Frankly, without overwhelming firepower--close air support is a must--the humans are at a major disadvantage.

Never saw Macross 7, so I can't say for sure how the VF-19 evolved, but the YF-19 had a clip-loading capable gunpod.

[Anubis]

I believe the VF-1 was the only one that suffered the no-clip problem.

[Skull-1]

It's a magazine, not a clip, guys. Very few weapons have clips. As a general rule a clip is used to fill a magazine (like the M-1 Garand--uses an En Bloc *CLIP* to fill an internal box *MAGAZINE*) and a magazine fills a weapon without one built in (M-16 for example). Some rifles like the SKS most often use a stripper clip to replenish a detachable magazine (that acts as a fixed/permanent magazine because the former are lighter than the latter).

I hate everyone calling everything a "clip." It's not a "clip."

My Marine Corps side is fighting its way to the surface again....must resist....must......

Edited November 1, 2003 by Skull-1

[Godzilla]

Gee with all that Technology, you would figure you give the Destroids more armor for survivabilty. I mean look at the M1 Tank... it can survive many hits from other tank shells unless you are close to it. Even at that close, the M1 tanks does survive. I read that in Armored Cav by Tom Clancy in the Gulf War 1, where a T-72 was at less that 800m (I think that was the distance) with a disable M1 (stuck in the mud). The T-72 fired an AP round. It only grooved the armor of the M1. Seeing it was futile, the T-72 hid behind a berm only to be destoyed when the M1's 120mm AP round went thru the berm and it! Of course if you attacked it in the rear, you are dead anyways.

The point is that, by that time, the UN Defense Research is looking at all avenues to have the pilot survive since you spend that amount of $$$ on training based on the lessons learned in Space War I. A pilot is a pilot whether it is a VF or a destroid. That still requires a large degree of training. In real life we focused on getting our pilots and crews survivabilty so they can fight another day despite the equipment loss. And they too can be used as trainer for the next gen as well.

I know it is hard to develop that kind of armor for a variable transforming fighter. I mean, OMG, you have to cover all the joints, hydraulics, etc when the fighter transform. Does it mean will we ever see a variable fighter in a combo A-10/F-14 design where it is ugly, slow, armored, survivable, and kicks some major butt? Who knows... (hmmm I see custom... ) But I can definitely see a bad-@$$ destroid that you shoot the hell out it and it can still shoot back at you with a larger caliber gun that will wipe you off the face the planet! A destroid that has a combination of Lasers and ammunition type weapons would be the way to go as well. By that time, I would think that a power suppy that is capable of providing enough energy for your particle/laser weapons would be small enough to fit in a destroid. Hell, I would also assume the ammo type weapons would be like rail guns.

Regardless, I was disappointed by this in the Macross series. (I never seen M7 so I dunno what to tell you there.) I mean, this by all practicality was like WW2. Casualities were high as Allies moved forward towards Germany and even worse in the Pacific. Talk about your CFs there! Ok, I know that Earth never fought an invading Alien race but still after the first encounter, our research would be able to help the survivablity of the pilots and crews...

Anyways, I did see Destroids in Macross II Lovers Again., however.

[dna]

Yeah, the Destroids definetly did get the short end of the stick.

[Noyhauser]

Okay a few thoughts... (from a strategic analyst point of view)

I think the UN spacy (I speak of the UN Spacy as including all arms of the UN forces) after 2030 started to realize that they going to see more and more renegade colonies and have to deal with them some how. Now I remember in the English version of Macross Plus Episode 1, the YF21 and 19 were designed not to carry reaction weaponry because it would cause a political incident. I'd say that constitutes a major conceptual shift in the thoughts of the defence planners at UN spacy. For the 30 years previous, UN spacy main overriding goal was to protect the colonies from another massive alien invasion, ala SW1. But by 2040 we see the UN spacy engaged in a "Hot" guerilla war (remember even Low intensity wars are hot when you are engaged in battle) against Anti-UN forces. Look at the events depicted in VFX-2, The UN Spacy is almost taken down by the Vindirance terrorist group. Therefore it is quite obvious that there is growing concern that the threat no longer from outside, but more from within.

Now you are all probably wondering where I am going with this. If the UN spacy has been primed for taking on a massive space invasion, typically you want ships/fighters able to inflict mass casualties against their opponents. Like we all saw in DYRL and the TV series, Nukes, massive missile barrages containing nukes, Big missiles with big Nukes ect and so forth. But after 2030, the explosion of colonies created from the Megaroad/Macross expeditions, smaller colony expeditions (Eden), and the claiming of territory inhabited by other races (Zola) all put additional poltical pressure on UN Spacy. I'm guessing that this is a federal relationship between associated colonies and UN spacy (some sort of Tax that is paid to the UN spacy or the colonial authority to maintain the UN Spacy and other projects), so you can't do some things anymore, ie cause massive damage to a colony world just to deal with a renegade leader, or group. If that did happen, Colonies would withdraw from the UN system and that would be bad. The UN spacy needed something more surgical to deal with these situations.

Now back to my earlier point about the YF-19/21; Project supernova was in my mind designed so that the UN spacy could use these fighters effectively considering this new security enviroment of colony policing (peacekeeping). Examining the capabilities of the Zentredis, the VF-11 was sufficient because they could beat regular zentredi forces with the VF-1, nuclear missiles and Minmay. But the VF-11 was completely worthless in the new security enviroment because it could not carry out precision strikes in builtup areas (its missiles were in its fastpacks) and would get slaughted in a hard slog in a city. The VF-11 was also getting outclassed by the latest generation of Anti UN fighters. The 21 and 19 could do high speed precision strikes on high value targets within colony worlds without causing massive civillian casualties. Its a lot like now and the use of Precision Guided Munitions like the JDAM and Paveway series to take out targets without major collateral damage to civillian targets. Micromissiles probably have unbelievalble accuracy when enhanced with Overtechnology, and could do this role well. Look how easy it was for Isamu and Guld to penetrate the Earth's defence network, and in the end, disabled the whole Macross Network in the SDF-1... Excatly what the UN spacy wanted it to do. In my mind thats why the Ghost Lost... the ghost has no emotion, it can't make the split second decision of the political consequences of its actions. Uhh do I blow up this hospital because its eminating terrorist signals? Try to program that into the ghost, I dare you. Also ghosts can't have an in city presence. I agree with the earlier posts that troops are needed, but the Tank at every corner does have an important role. For example look at how Dutch peacekeepers were disarmed by Serbian forces in the Former Yugoslavia (especially Srebenica); they did not have any heavy weapons and the Serbs walked in with T-55s and disarmed them, then you will realize that some hard military presence is needed. A meanicing VF-11 in Gerwalk on every street corner does have a pacifying effect on a population IN CERTAIN SITUATIONs( this is a qualifier, this is NOT a post questioning what is going on in iraq, I'm just saying that the Ghost cannot do this, while manned VFs can)

Now for the need for destroids and stuff. Okay Lets say that Infantry have not increased their capability appreciably since 1999. I mean in the sense that Infantry cannot harm VFs. I say this because in macross Plus they still use H&K MP-5s for guards. I'm guessing that Overtechnology has been unable to provide the regular infantry with significant advances in military technology. This may be a reason why the Protocultures started creating Giant sized soldiers; to take advantage of the techology advances (over technology perhaps?) they could provide. Valkyries can take other hand can utlize overtechnology these are lets say 20X more survivable than our current technology level of fighters. It now requires you to fire swarms of missiles to take out a Valkyrie, rather than just one for current fighters. So the soldier on the ground is less useful against heavy armorded forces in Macross universe than they are now. Its kinda like Gundam in a sense (but for more realistic reasons) only a mecha can beat a mecha. BUT Destroids and tanks manuverability would be a problem as well. Given the overtechnology's advances in sensors and weaponsm, Valkyries could also just commit a high altitude bombing campaign or high speed slashing runs to destroy tanks or Destroids in a city and get away scotfree. Now think how I said earlier the VF-11 would be ill suited to such a role? It wouldn't be able to do such missions well. I can't carry missiles, its not amazingly fast or manuverable or have beam weaponry. the YF-21 and 19 do all these things amazingly well.

So the future of ground combat? The earlier poster is correct, you need infantry, and lots of it. You always have and always will. And I'd bet you would have some sort of APCs as well. From here the gap is big; the next would be your low level VFs like the 11. VFs can be your heavy firepower. I think the VA-14 was probably designed for this role with its smaller caliber beam weapons.

Phew... I'm open to comments and criticisms, I hope you enjoyed my post. (it was a nice break from my thesis)

Edited November 4, 2003 by Noyhauser

[VF-1D Strike]

Lets add these into the mix.....

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...k_destroid.html

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...mart/ldr04.html

R

[Noyhauser]

What game is the first destroid from?

[nathan]

How many infantry are going to stand up to a 30+ foot tall mecha with more weapons than a tank?? Sure they can do it but a lot of them are going to get killed in the prossess. What you really need the infantry for is keeping and policing the city once the Destroids and Valkyries have taken it.

Ideally you would use combined arms to capture your target. Infantry, Armor, Destroids and Valkyries. That way each of them can support the other.

[Zentrandude]

What game is the first destroid from?

good luck in finding out. nanashi doesnt like to site his sources. he needs to protect his scannings by keeping them secret.

i dont see they needing destroids after sw1 seeing its was designed for defence to supplement its ok but not that ok defence system. but i might see it as invading another planet but simular to ghost (no human factor involved). send Vf-XX from the attack fleet to dominate the air and surounding space then launch tons and tons of unmaned destroids to depopulate the area without too much dmg to the factories, mines, ect.

[Nied]

How many infantry are going to stand up to a 30+ foot tall mecha with more weapons than a tank?? Sure they can do it but a lot of them are going to get killed in the prossess. What you really need the infantry for is keeping and policing the city once the Destroids and Valkyries have taken it.

Ideally you would use combined arms to capture your target. Infantry, Armor, Destroids and Valkyries. That way each of them can support the other.

The same way infantry can take down a tank in modern days. Simply wait in a city with the proper weaponry and ambush ambush ambush. That's been the technique for taking out tanks since they were invented. I don't think putting them on legs would change much.

[CAG]

nathan Posted on Nov 7 2003, 05:39 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many infantry are going to stand up to a 30+ foot tall mecha with more weapons than a tank?? Sure they can do it but a lot of them are going to get killed in the prossess. What you really need the infantry for is keeping and policing the city once the Destroids and Valkyries have taken it.

I'd assume that the Destroids would be susceptible to knee-capping (ambushing a mech and try to jam a satchel charge in it's ankle or knee), or swarming. Again, works most effectively in urban settings, so if you want to take a city, you'll probably need more 'conventional' forces.

Also, I think the destroids of the future would be more like non-transforming battroids, instead of the lumbering SW-1 kind (Monsters excepted).

[VF-1D Strike]

If nanashi's info is canon then the Dehawk destriod is use for ground combat in 2037. I wish we knew what game it came from and if it's part of the canon timeline.

R

[nathan]

What game is the first destroid from?

"Macross Eternal Love Song" www.roycommi.com may be an RPG site but atlease They list thier sources. Nanashi doesn't even after promising to in the old boards. That's why I wouldn't use nanashi as a reference. Some of the things I've found to be acurate from other sources but a lot of it is made up or non cannon material is included. And no source material is listed to tell the fact from fiction. It's a good read but the material is to suspect.

The same way infantry can take down a tank in modern days. Simply wait in a city with the proper weaponry and ambush ambush ambush. That's been the technique for taking out tanks since they were invented. I don't think putting them on legs would change much.

That's true but it's getting harder for them to hide and I would assume the sensors on the destroids are better than those on current tanks. Also most defenders would want to stop the enemy before they get into the city to keep damage and civilian causalties to a minimum. That makes it harder for infantry. I'm not saying it can't be done. They just have to be very sneaky and very lucky.

I'd assume that the Destroids would be susceptible to knee-capping (ambushing a mech and try to jam a satchel charge in it's ankle or knee), or swarming. Again, works most effectively in urban settings, so if you want to take a city, you'll probably need more 'conventional' forces.

Also, I think the destroids of the future would be more like non-transforming battroids, instead of the lumbering SW-1 kind (Monsters excepted).

Yes they are. So are Battloids. Like you said though it works best in urban areas as well as in enclosed spaces like canyons. And Like I said though you'd want to stop the enemy from getting into the city. Once the enemy gets in then the infantry can work but in open engagements they're cannon fodder.

[Noyhauser]

If you read my long post, I explain why Infantry can't take out destroids and battroids ect ect. I think Overtechnology has made mecha nigh invincible to ordinary humans. Satchel charges may work on a current tank, but the armor on a VF is probably far more than on a tank (because of the wonders of Overtechnology), and how are you going to get a sachel on a VF? Just watch the MAcross Plus fight scene in either episode 2 or 4, now imagine yourself with a bag of explosives trying to put that on VF, let alone a critical part... good luck. Any VF moving at any speed would be nearly impossible to hit.

I think Infantry if anthing is there to make sure the population can be controlled, not taking on the big boys like VFs.

[nathan]

Yes Overtechnology has made armor stronger but don't you think they would also apply the same technology to weapons? And nobody said it would be easy. Just possible.

[Noyhauser]

no, I don't think that miniturized weapons could be advanced appreciably with overtechnology, I already wrote about this earlier, please my extensively long post above (and I don't want to rewrite it all again).

[Nied]

Actually Overtechnology has led to advances in the miniturization of weaponry. Just look at micro missiles. They pack more of a punch than modern missiles at a fraction of the size (and judging from how many most VFs can carry their wieght as well). Now just consider the type of infantry sized weapon you could create using that same technology (miniturization, an more powerful explosives). Hell it shouldn't be hard to turn the warheads found in any number of overtechnology powered weapons and put them in sachel form.

I say this because in macross Plus they still use H&K MP-5s for guards. I'm guessing that Overtechnology has been unable to provide the regular infantry with significant advances in military technology.

those were not MP-5s

this is an MP-5

This is what they had in Macross Plus

I find it hard to beilieve that you couldn't apply overtechnology to infantry. I'd love to have a rifle made out of hypercarbons (light weight and strong), firing shells powered by an overtech charge (higher muzzle velocity), or even a hand held micro missile launcher (that's how you'd take down a VF).

[Nied]

Here's my hand held micro missile launcher. Small enough to be carried as an emergency side arm in a VF too.

[Nied]

Here it is again:

[Nied]

And in use:

[Nied]

Line art courtesy of the Robotech reference guide:

[Noyhauser]

My whole point with overtechnology is not that it cannot be applied, but the relative gains that you recieve out of applying such technology is minor when you compare that to larger units. Think of it this way, Macro scale weapons are now X5 more powerful when combined with overtechnology (Gunpods missiles, beam weaponry and most importantly armor) Micro scale hand held weapons only increase X2 with overtechnology. That puts human size weaponry at a distinct disadvantage. See I always wondered why create a macrosized race like the Zentredi? It makes sense if the most efficient size to make weapons and armor is larger than what humans can manipulate. My guess is that the protoculture created the Zentredi to snuff out colonial strife with armor and weapons that normal protoculture sized beings weapons could not harm. Its not like today when one guy can waltz to the top of a building and shoot a RPG-7 into the engine deck of a M-1 and most likely disable it, or a guy with a Javlen at 500 meters blow up a tank. I'd say that infantry weapons in the Macross world can nolonger damage their tanks of the day (VFS) Look at micromissiles, none of the weapons carried by the VF-1 could be micronized to the point where they can be carried by a human (more or less launched by one thinking about the kickback and blowback). Regardless even in 2010 it takes vast swarms of missiles to hit and take down a VF. And by 2040 we have pinpoint barrier technology which just makes VFs nigh invinicible to infantry weapons.