SDF: Macross vs Macross Franchise

[Mr March]

There is a possible explanation. Macross 7, until now, was the only Macross sequel in the form of a television series. I've noted over the years that for some fans, format means absolutely everything to them. It doesn't matter if the sequels are good, bad or in between; they want a TV series. Hell, some fans even accept the Macross 7 TV series in spite of it's poor quality just because it's a TV series. In your case, perhaps format also makes a big difference to you.

Or perhaps a simpler theory is you're just a Macross 7 fan screaming to come out

[DJ Loe Kee]

There is a possible explanation. Macross 7, until now, was the only Macross sequel in the form of a television series. I've noted over the years that for some fans, format means absolutely everything to them. It doesn't matter if the sequels are good, bad or in between; they want a TV series. Hell, some fans even accept the Macross 7 TV series in spite of it's poor quality just because it's a TV series. In your case, perhaps format also makes a big difference to you.

Or perhaps a simpler theory is you're just a Macross 7 fan screaming to come out

i don't think macross 7 was bad, it just wasn't my type of anime. i've read that macross 7 was a success in japan and i'm pretty sure that the creators of macross 7 doesn't care if non-japanese (gaijin) ppl like or hate macross 7. what i want to know is WHO liked macross 7 in japan. i can see the teens/adults likin' the music of macross 7 'cause i am no stranger to j-pop music. but i can't picture them actually likin' the show outside of the music. and i haven't seen what age range macross 7 was popular with... was it with the same audience as pokemon (kodomo, little kids), pre-teens to adults ( shounen & shoujo, naruto, bleach and maybe death note) or teens to adults (seinen & josei, ninja scroll, akira, ghost in the shell and maybe death note?).

[KingNor]

There is a possible explanation. Macross 7, until now, was the only Macross sequel in the form of a television series. I've noted over the years that for some fans, format means absolutely everything to them. It doesn't matter if the sequels are good, bad or in between; they want a TV series. Hell, some fans even accept the Macross 7 TV series in spite of it's poor quality just because it's a TV series. In your case, perhaps format also makes a big difference to you.

Or perhaps a simpler theory is you're just a Macross 7 fan screaming to come out

actually i think i like what i like of it because it's the most closely related to the original, in terms of plot devices. Make no mistake, i find the show facinateing, not good. hehe.

Much of the show i find unwatchable, the singing just grates, the lady druming on everything, ugg.. i can't handle it. but when it does something in true homage to the original i can't help but feel a little touched.

M7 also manages to exemplify in the most brash way possible nearly everything i've come to dislike about the subsequent macrossees. so don't think for a minute that i think it's a good sequil or anything hehe.

[Mr March]

DJ Loe Kee

Ain't rightly sure my own self. I'm sure Macross 7, in Japan, was popular enough. It had a "movie", an OVA sequel and sold albums/toys, so it made an account of itself. If I had to venture so far as to guess, I'd say Mac 7 rode off the wave of the SDF Macross/DYRL/FB2012 era and the successful Mac+, much like Alien 3 or Terminator 3. The lack of later merchandising and any long term sustainability likely means the show was average, like most of the stuff on television it adequately filled up programming time. But no one is selling toys for it anymore like SDFM or M+.

KingNor

Well, it was a thought. I agree that strumming the ego of fans is as sure a lure as there is. We all love our homages and references. Hollywood has built an empire on feeding fandom just what it needs to keep that carrot dangling with one horrible sequel after another and the Japanese are just as savvy. As strange as this might seem, I don't see Macross 7 as everything wrong with Macross sequels. I do honestly believe it was just a well-meaning attempt at animated entertainment that went horribly wrong. You have to admire Kawamori and Co for sticking to the plan with Mac7 despite the lousy result. Digressing, I will say you're a tough customer to please. I'm sure it's an obvious conclusion that Macross Frontier won't satisfy you, but I do think it's great that the original SDF Macross has sustained your fandom 25 years later. That's quite an accomplishment for one animated series.

[Sundown]

I haven't voted. Primarily because I'm not sure I'd be okay with the loss of M+. While it's missing much of the charm of SDF, it did feature some great scenes, the YF-19 and 21 (awesome both for its YF-23 and Q-Rau influences), and I did really like the premise of the show, even if I didn't buy in to any of the characters the way I did Hikaru and crew. I did initially feel a fair amount of dissapointment in that M+ didn't feel like it completely belonged in the world established by SDF, but it still managed to be enjoyable. The rest I'd be pretty okay with losing.

[Mr March]

That's a somewhat similar reason why I didn't vote either. Whether some liked it or not, Macross Plus carries a special status that none of the other Macross sequels do; the pioneering of CGI animation. Macross Plus was the most expensive anime production of it's time and is a landmark work for the integration of CG animation into traditional hand drawn animation. In some ways, one could argue Macross Plus is the most important Macross production ever made with respect to Japanese animation as both an industry and an art form. I also really appreciate M+ as one of the few anime productions made for a more adult audience.

[Heron]

That's a somewhat similar reason why I didn't vote either. Whether some liked it or not, Macross Plus carries a special status that none of the other Macross sequels do; the pioneering of CGI animation. Macross Plus was the most expensive anime production of it's time and is a landmark work for the integration of CG animation into traditional hand drawn animation. In some ways, one could argue Macross Plus is the most important Macross production ever made with respect to Japanese animation as both an industry and an art form. I also really appreciate M+ as one of the few anime productions made for a more adult audience.

I <3 Macross + because it gave me this:

Edited January 20, 2008 by Heron

[Sergorn]

DJ Loe Kee

Ain't rightly sure my own self. I'm sure Macross 7, in Japan, was popular enough. It had a "movie", an OVA sequel and sold albums/toys, so it made an account of itself.

Oh Macross 7 *was* very popular in Japan. It ranked really high in Animage's Anime Grand Prix (which has always been a good indicator of the most popular shows) coming 4th in 1994 and 5th in 1995 or perhaps the other way around (and 1995 that was the Evangelion year). And while never claiming the top spot, it also ranked highly on most other categories as well (ie : best character, best seiyus, best opening, best episode plot...).

No it's no wonder Macross 7 got a movie and a later OAV series - it really had a great success (and much more than Macross Plus for that matter) even if it might seems hard to believe to some fans.

In some ways, one could argue Macross Plus is the most important Macross production ever made with respect to Japanese animation as both an industry and an art form.

Macross Plus also brought Yoko Kanno to the spotlight. Just for that : thanks you Kawamori-san

-Sergorn

Edited January 20, 2008 by Sergorn

[Warmaker]

Without the success of SDF:M, you wouldn't have the much hoopla'd productions of DYRL? and Macross Plus

You wouldn't have those VF-1 models and toys that they've been producing for more than 20 years.

You wouldn't have those artbooks from SDF:M... nor the artbooks of DYRL? and afterwards, all because of SDF:M's success.

Where would S.Kawamori's stance in anime be without the success of SDF:M?

I could go on, but SDF:M is by far the most important of all Macross productions. It was highly successful, holds up today, and NOTHING Macross related was possible without it's success and the setting it made.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Warmaker

[Sergorn]

I could go on, but SDF:M is by far the most important of all Macross productions. It was highly successful, holds up today, and NOTHING Macross related was possible without it's success and the setting it made.

I'm not sure what's your point here - I don't see anyone arguing against that, and I'm sure we're all aware of that

That being said, just because SDFM was the beginning of it all, doesn't necessarilly means that it's the better series though.

-Sergorn

Edited January 20, 2008 by Sergorn

[miriya]

Just because SDF macross is the original and the best does that mean that the others, some of which are great too (although not as great as SDFM), should be eliminated?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

SDF:M was about space war I. It is the foundation upon which all the other shows stand on. That can never be taken away from it. (it is the equivalent of the "one year war" event in UC in terms of significance)

However, because of this, you can't have another event like that repeating in the same way you can with gundam. The zentradi are friendly, they are cultured, the anti-un has been beaten. The only way is to go forward and maybe have another threat in space on the same scale as what you had in space war I. (but with a new race of aliens)

Maybe in the new series they decide to bring back destroids and use them for operations on the ground where sneaking up is useful (just like in Gundam 8th MS Team) and transforming is unecessary. And we get something we haven't seen before. The only way for SW I to be topped is if the new enemy is more intelligent than us, better armed, more numerous, and mysterious (such that it requires we learn about them before being able to fight effectively against them) so that it feels just like the good ole SDF:M in terms of seriousness/danger.

Macross 7 was during a time of peace, so frontier might be set during a disaster that balloons and engulfs all the civilisation out in space who can't protect themselves and forced to fight if they wish to survive. (bu I don't really get that vibe judging by what happned in Zero where the PC birdman left us alone and ran away)

SDF:M is like in a sense what space battleship yamato was like: the whole world was going to be invaded and the responsiblity rested on a single ship to succeed. (earth was destroyed in macross anyway but at least they won the war ) That kind of scale needs to be matched in the future show but this time several worlds have to fight again. (I honestly don't think rogue zentradi without any education are a match for humans anymore)

Edited January 20, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sketch]

Not many people liked macross 7 because of the valks with faces in it and magic that basara had to defeat the PD.

Correction: Not many people in America liked Macross 7; it was a smash hit in Japan.

Keep in mind that it was marketed towards Japanese teenagers. When I first saw it on VHS fansubs, I was 14 or 15 and I loved it! Now it's faults are protected by teenage nostalgia; and the same goes for an entire generation of Japanese teenagers who watched it during it's airing. I think if I was in my 20's when I first saw it, my opinion would have been completely different.

And you wonder why Gundam fans snicker at Macross fans...it's 'cause of Mac 7.

Everything non-UC is completely idiotic, Gundam fans simply do not have a high horse to ride on; Wing Gundam? G Gundam? Gundam Seed? Gundam 00? All complete and utter super-robot garbage. Regardless of your opinion on Macross 7, it looks like hard sci-fi when standing next to the AU Gundam contenders.

Edited January 20, 2008 by Sketch

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ok then let's just say it was american macross fans then.

DR.Chiba is like a character from ghostbusters though. That is the lighter tone of 7 (like the light comedy of ghostbusters) drew them off because they were into a more serious tone from SDF:M (even though it's a show about a singing idol able to stop aliens from killing hehe)

One thing I do like about 7 (and in a sense robotech) was how they used rock, just that by overusing it too much it kinda annoys some people for the repetition. Maybe if macross 7 was an ova (like the original bubblegum crisis which had thrash metal/rock as a theme song for each episode) and Macross zero was a tv series, americans would all be happier?

With space monsters, so far we have the usage of the military again. Just as in Space War I how their usage of the grand cannon was a big factor in helping to take out some of the zentradi, here the usage of ordinary pilots in macross F with skills is helping makes it seem grounded in reality again. Unlike in 7 where everyone was helpless against the monsters without the hero basara in his custom VF-19.

I think it's that realism from SDF:M that people want back. That if you fight the things there are casualties. Not everyone is going to be happy, although the music is going to help, some people still can be immune to it. (just as in SDF:M kamjin learnt to accept culture but STILL be a little crazy and dangerous character, post-war. Able to still kill the remaining humans and be a real threat.)

Music shouldn't be the silver bullet as it was in 7, just one way of "fighting" to bring peace. This is why SDF:M was "realistic" because it balanced it all, (grand cannon, music, love triangle, need for skill in fights etc) and didn't make characters too one dimensional. A character like kamjin can still be 'cultured' but still want to rape and pillage; which in turn, brings a need for the physical, conventional weapons to exist too. The bad guys can still 'love' but still have their own personal grudges and fight. (just as humans fought wars after the alien ship landed on earth and can't be considered innocent saints just because they have pop idols)

At the end of bubble gum crisis the knight sabers don't say that genom is totally evil even though they fight their boomer robots. They acknowledge that as vigilantes they are using the profits from taking on jobs from anyone to fight genom, but not totally eradicate the company which although it does make weapons of war, it still brings benefits to society through the technological advances seen which the government can use. What would be interesting is if in macross F they have a Sara-like character who hates machines (because they are associated with war) but relies on them for everyday things. I dunno just give them more character depth instead of being saints like basara, which is not realistic to a normal person. Also because that's not how a person would react to danger unless they were newtypish in piloting skill. These are scary monsters FFS.

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sergorn]

Correction: Not many people in America liked Macross 7; it was a smash hit in Japan.

Keep in mind that it was marketed towards Japanese teenagers.

Yeah that's the thing. I'd argue that Macross Plus was created to aim at the original grown-up SDFM fans, while Macross 7 was simply created to aime at the teenagers of its time and essentially create a new generation of fans. That's also why they both are so radically different even though they were basically doing both at the same time.

-Sergorn

[Radd]

I agree with Aegis!, that if the series were tone and themes were presented more like they were in Dynamite, it's possible more people, at least more people in the west, would have enjoyed the series. I don't believe the issues most people seem to have with the show are direct products of marketing to the show's intended demographic, rather it's simply due to the people heading production while Kawamori was handling Plus.

[DJ Loe Kee]

Correction: Not many people in America liked Macross 7; it was a smash hit in Japan.

Keep in mind that it was marketed towards Japanese teenagers. When I first saw it on VHS fansubs, I was 14 or 15 and I loved it! Now it's faults are protected by teenage nostalgia; and the same goes for an entire generation of Japanese teenagers who watched it during it's airing. I think if I was in my 20's when I first saw it, my opinion would have been completely different.

Everything non-UC is completely idiotic, Gundam fans simply do not have a high horse to ride on; Wing Gundam? G Gundam? Gundam Seed? Gundam 00? All complete and utter super-robot garbage. Regardless of your opinion on Macross 7, it looks like hard sci-fi when standing next to the AU Gundam contenders.

that's true. macross 7 was a smash hit in japan while it is hated in the u.s. this happens all the time. bubblegum crisis was a failure in japan and it got canceled. it was supposed to run 13 epsiodes (i believe) and not 8. i still have bgc on dvd-r even tho' i thought that it was borin' (i thought it was REALLY good when i first watched ep. 1 ten years earlier tho'...) other hits in the u.s. like akira and ghost in the shell have been failures in japan. the ghost on the shell sequels don't even carry the ghost in the shell name in japan 'cause of the movies box office failure, they are simply called "innocence" and "stand alone complex."

Ok then let's just say it was american macross fans then.

DR.Chiba is like a character from ghostbusters though. That is the lighter tone of 7 (like the light comedy of ghostbusters) drew them off because they were into a more serious tone from SDF:M (even though it's a show about a singing idol able to stop aliens from killing hehe)

One thing I do like about 7 (and in a sense robotech) was how they used rock, just that by overusing it too much it kinda annoys some people for the repetition. Maybe if macross 7 was an ova (like the original bubblegum crisis which had thrash metal/rock as a theme song for each episode) and Macross zero was a tv series, americans would all be happier?

With space monsters, so far we have the usage of the military again. Just as in Space War I how their usage of the grand cannon was a big factor in helping to take out some of the zentradi, here the usage of ordinary pilots in macross F with skills is helping makes it seem grounded in reality again. Unlike in 7 where everyone was helpless against the monsters without the hero basara in his custom VF-19.

I think it's that realism from SDF:M that people want back. That if you fight the things there are casualties. Not everyone is going to be happy, although the music is going to help, some people still can be immune to it. (just as in SDF:M kamjin learnt to accept culture but STILL be a little crazy and dangerous character, post-war. Able to still kill the remaining humans and be a real threat.)

Music shouldn't be the silver bullet as it was in 7, just one way of "fighting" to bring peace. This is why SDF:M was "realistic" because it balanced it all, (grand cannon, music, love triangle, need for skill in fights etc) and didn't make characters too one dimensional. A character like kamjin can still be 'cultured' but still want to rape and pillage; which in turn, brings a need for the physical, conventional weapons to exist too. The bad guys can still 'love' but still have their own personal grudges and fight. (just as humans fought wars after the alien ship landed on earth and can't be considered innocent saints just because they have pop idols)

At the end of bubble gum crisis the knight sabers don't say that genom is totally evil even though they fight their boomer robots. They acknowledge that as vigilantes they are using the profits from taking on jobs from anyone to fight genom, but not totally eradicate the company which although it does make weapons of war, it still brings benefits to society through the technological advances seen which the government can use. What would be interesting is if in macross F they have a Sara-like character who hates machines (because they are associated with war) but relies on them for everyday things. I dunno just give them more character depth instead of being saints like basara, which is not realistic to a normal person. Also because that's not how a person would react to danger unless they were newtypish in piloting skill. These are scary monsters FFS.

that is not true. if you don't like j-pop then you will not like the music in macross 7. the nihonjin (japanese) probably say the same thing about american music. turn on mtv or b.e.t., trl and 106 & park play the same videos day after day but those shows haven't been canceled. and people still call in and request the same videos over and over. SOOOO, if you like the music in macross 7 than the music won't seem "overused" to you.

instead of turnin' on mtv japan in order to watch the same video over and over, you can watch the latest episode of macross 7 and hear the exact same song. but it's not like watchin' the same video over and over on mtv japan 'cause there are new scenes to see (excludin' the reused scenes that they used over and over). so you can have 40+ videos for the same song. truthfully, that is pretty smart. the band that played that song did sell alot of singles in japan 'cause of macross 7 (singles are more popular in japan than album sales. it is the exact opposite of the u.s. preferrin' albums over singles, excludin' itunes and p2p.)

Yeah that's the thing. I'd argue that Macross Plus was created to aim at the original grown-up SDFM fans, while Macross 7 was simply created to aime at the teenagers of its time and essentially create a new generation of fans. That's also why they both are so radically different even though they were basically doing both at the same time.

-Sergorn

yea, macross 7 needed to bring in new fans. these new fans would be needed to make macross zero and macross frontier successful.

and if you think macross 7 is bad, at least watch macross dynamite 7 (the ova series.) it has a more serious tone than the tv series. and in regards to anime, it is actually a good ova (no comment on how good it is for a macross sequel, i can talk about flaws in every macross sequel but i can find positives in the sequels in regards to anime). i would watch macross dynamite 7 again but i can't say the same thing for the tv series (all watch all 52 episodes and the movie.)

[Macross_Fanboy]

Well, I've seen all and I can say Macross II sucks and Macross 7 was good, not great, but good. Macross 7 attempted recreations of old things like the Battle 7 transforming and showing images of the anime version of DYRL? And even old characters in Max and Millia. Macross II didn't have much new going on really. I would like them to recreate SDF Macross, but it just won't happen without them changing the story, but then again, the guys at Sunrise managed to recreate all of Zeta Gundam and only change a few things like the ending so Camille didn't get his brain-fried, but after Zeta you don't really see Camille anymore so it doesn't matter. But Zeta Gundam and SDF M have different ways in the way they pursued their war.

As for Macross F, one of my friends here says he doesn't like it because he didn't see much originality, I didn't see too much myself either, but one has to remind himself is that the first episode is all an homage to series that came before F, all 25 years of greatness and crappiness depending on what your opinion is of other series. Macross does have to modernize with Macross Zero being the first, and hopefully Macross F expanding it. That's my take on this whole thing.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Macross_Fanboy

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

that is not true. if you don't like j-pop then you will not like the music in macross 7. the nihonjin (japanese) probably say the same thing about american music. turn on mtv or b.e.t., trl and 106 & park play the same videos day after day but those shows haven't been canceled. and people still call in and request the same videos over and over. SOOOO, if you like the music in macross 7 than the music won't seem "overused" to you.

Whether something is popular and good are two different things. And whether I like it isn't dependent on popularity to others or commercial success with other fans. I thought fire bombers songs were good. But the macross 7 tv series suffered from the repetition from a story point of view. (being 52 eps means you might get tired easier)

This is why people felt it was like monster of the week show: the repetition forced them to have to see the same thing over again. The battle animations looked familiar (same criticism could be said for gundam wing though) the song was the same, but the episode was new. heh. It's a bit like how a super robot show has the hero use the same move and the bad guy never learns to counter it.

Compare that to Priss (and the replicants)in bubblegum crisis who had 1 unique song for each episode and you can really appreciate the range of songs better since it's only an OVA and you never here 1 song overused. I guess it's just that tv series are not designed to be watched like a movie or ova where you sit on the chair and watch them in one long marathon session. This may have had an effect on you because you notice patterns better and would complain more about repetition.

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

Well, I've seen all and I can say Macross II sucks and Macross 7 was good, not great, but good. Macross 7 attempted recreations of old things like the Battle 7 transforming and showing images of the anime version of DYRL? And even old characters in Max and Millia. Macross II didn't have much new going on really.

I always chuckle when I hear a statement like Mac II had nothing new... It was very different from SDFM and DYRL particularly in premise. However, I have to agree that comparatively, Dynamite was much more palatable to adult fans the Mac 7. Hell, even the "Sound Force" equipped Excalibur's bolt on sound pods were more plausible than Basara's super robot shoulder speakers...

Though Mac 7 was a marketing success, it sold a LOT of albums! SDFM has universal appeal (probably not intentional, but it ended up that way), while SK made Plus like a foreign Western fillm (not so well recieved in Japan as opposed to here), and Mac 7 was all Asian. I wonder if Mac F is an attempt to bring both the old and new fanbases together? They need the teenagers in Japan, but they are well aware that most Macross fans in the west are adults. Who knows they may be trying to entice the closet adult Otaku in Japan into watching as well, since dramas are all the rage in Japan at the moment, particularly Korean ones...

[Sergorn]

and if you think macross 7 is bad, at least watch macross dynamite 7 (the ova series.) it has a more serious tone than the tv series. and in regards to anime, it is actually a good ova (no comment on how good it is for a macross sequel, i can talk about flaws in every macross sequel but i can find positives in the sequels in regards to anime). i would watch macross dynamite 7 again but i can't say the same thing for the tv series (all watch all 52 episodes and the movie.)

Heh, I must say I've never been a huge fan of Macross Dynamite 7. Sure it was great technically, but the plot was rather meh. It didn't have much going for it as far as I'm concerned except for the pleasure of seeing the Macross 7 characters again and hearing new Fire Bombers songs. I thought the series was a lot better.

-Sergorn

[Radd]

SOOOO, if you like the music in macross 7 than the music won't seem "overused" to you.

Now that's not entirely true. I love the music in Macross 7, even further Basara is one of my favourite Macross characters (I know, feel free to gasp), and yet...I think the music is horribly overused, especially in the first half of the tv series. The formulaic repetition of each episode hurts the series, too (it's that episode formula that gives people that "monster of the week" impression), and in fact I'd say it's that formula, the way the music is worked in to each episode, that hurts it more than the music itself. After all, people don't complain about the overuse of the opening and ending music, or the BGM in other shows.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't believe a series which features the same song over and over again for maybe 20 episodes, worked in via a formulaic episode design, is comparable at all to a music video show. A music video show is more like listening to the radio. You can walk in on the middle to listen to a song or two and move on. You can keep it playing in the background and tune in and out as songs you want to hear come on.

I think it would be more correct to say that the overuse of the music+formula is one of those things you can overlook if you enjoy the music, character, and show. I'm certain I've even seen people post to the effect that they love the music, but hate the series. I certainly know people like that.

[Radd]

I don't expect anyone who hated the Macross 7 tv series to like the Dynamite OVA. The OVA kinda throws you in to the middle of things, I'd say you need that tv series back story to really enjoy it. And if you didn't like the tv series but managed to finish it, you're probably not going to be in the right frame of mind to embrace Dynamite with open arms.

Also, Dynamite is very much a side story. It's not even as grand or epic as Plus turned out by the end. It's still more about the characters than the action, and while the animation is substantially better overall than the tv series, it's still not great. Certainly low quality for an OVA. I'd recommend it to anyone who enjoyed M7 (though, clearly, their enjoyment is not a given either), as I said I love it and it addresses many of the problems I had with the tv series, but I just don't see someone who hated M7 getting into Dynamite.

[Rhapsodyred99]

I actually like Macross 7, granted I am not all the way through it yet, but I still like it. It is nice to watch something that isn't all gloom and doom.

My main complaint with Mac 7 is that the toys are crap.

I want a yamato vf-17!

The original story was very intense and at times depressing (the whole earth is pretty much wiped out!) and I loved it, but Mac 7 so far, while having its momets of drama (Phisika getting blasted) is on the whole a lighter series. there is a place for that too. Of course I am a huge transformers fan, so the mechs with faces and lighter stories do not bother me as much.

Either way I am just glad they did not stop with the orriginal or I never would have even seen it. it woudl have faded into obscurity, and nothing would have made me want to take a look at it. Because of the continuing story I found a great big universe of cool animation/robots/and toys I never knew existed, or at least never really cared existed.

[DJ Loe Kee]

Whether something is popular and good are two different things. And whether I like it isn't dependent on popularity to others or commercial success with other fans. I thought fire bombers songs were good. But the macross 7 tv series suffered from the repetition from a story point of view. (being 52 eps means you might get tired easier)

This is why people felt it was like monster of the week show: the repetition forced them to have to see the same thing over again. The battle animations looked familiar (same criticism could be said for gundam wing though) the song was the same, but the episode was new. heh. It's a bit like how a super robot show has the hero use the same move and the bad guy never learns to counter it.

Compare that to Priss (and the replicants)in bubblegum crisis who had 1 unique song for each episode and you can really appreciate the range of songs better since it's only an OVA and you never here 1 song overused. I guess it's just that tv series are not designed to be watched like a movie or ova where you sit on the chair and watch them in one long marathon session. This may have had an effect on you because you notice patterns better and would complain more about repetition.

sorry but i didn't like macross 7. all that i am sayin' that that things that the japanese think are GOOD shows are seen as AWFUL in the u.s. macross 7 is the example for that. and things that americans think are GOOD shows are seen as AWFUL in japan. ghost in the shell (i own this on dvd and i think it is an OK movie, i used to think it was REAL GOOD), akira (i own this on dvd and i think it is an OK movie, i used to think it was REAL GOOD) and bubblegum crisis (i agree with the japanese on this one, it is not as great as ppl say it is) are examples of these. so i won't defend m7 or the music anymore 'cause i really don't like either one (sorry, i can't listen to j-pop, c-pop, v-pop, k-pop, t-pop...)

Heh, I must say I've never been a huge fan of Macross Dynamite 7. Sure it was great technically, but the plot was rather meh. It didn't have much going for it as far as I'm concerned except for the pleasure of seeing the Macross 7 characters again and hearing new Fire Bombers songs. I thought the series was a lot better.

-Sergorn

it was ok, i've seen better anime. tho' (watchin' macross 7 is likin' bleach and naruto filler... i'll never watch it a 2nd time.)

Now that's not entirely true. I love the music in Macross 7, even further Basara is one of my favourite Macross characters (I know, feel free to gasp), and yet...I think the music is horribly overused, especially in the first half of the tv series. The formulaic repetition of each episode hurts the series, too (it's that episode formula that gives people that "monster of the week" impression), and in fact I'd say it's that formula, the way the music is worked in to each episode, that hurts it more than the music itself. After all, people don't complain about the overuse of the opening and ending music, or the BGM in other shows.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't believe a series which features the same song over and over again for maybe 20 episodes, worked in via a formulaic episode design, is comparable at all to a music video show. A music video show is more like listening to the radio. You can walk in on the middle to listen to a song or two and move on. You can keep it playing in the background and tune in and out as songs you want to hear come on.

I think it would be more correct to say that the overuse of the music+formula is one of those things you can overlook if you enjoy the music, character, and show. I'm certain I've even seen people post to the effect that they love the music, but hate the series. I certainly know people like that.

i can't defend m7, i have the same viewpoints on why m7 is not good anime. see my previous paragraph and posts on why m7 was popular in japan. i still believe that m7 was targeted towards kids and the kids shows that i watch growin' up sux to me now. but to a kid's point of view, they were good shows. even kid's shows get canceled, kids will not watch a show targeted towards them if they think it suxs. so i'm puttin' macross 7 in the same category as pokemon, transformers, g.i. joe, power rangers, ninja turtles, voltron, speed racer, he-man, silverhawks, thundercats... they are meant to be viewed by kids and anybody over a certain age will think that they sux (alot of cartoons have been canceled when they tried to make them too "complex and other things like that" as if they were an adult tv series. i won't name the cartoons that were canceled 'cause of this, i actually liked them and watched them before they got canceled.)

I don't expect anyone who hated the Macross 7 tv series to like the Dynamite OVA. The OVA kinda throws you in to the middle of things, I'd say you need that tv series back story to really enjoy it. And if you didn't like the tv series but managed to finish it, you're probably not going to be in the right frame of mind to embrace Dynamite with open arms.

Also, Dynamite is very much a side story. It's not even as grand or epic as Plus turned out by the end. It's still more about the characters than the action, and while the animation is substantially better overall than the tv series, it's still not great. Certainly low quality for an OVA. I'd recommend it to anyone who enjoyed M7 (though, clearly, their enjoyment is not a given either), as I said I love it and it addresses many of the problems I had with the tv series, but I just don't see someone who hated M7 getting into Dynamite.

i hated macross 7 and i liked dynamite 7. in terms of anime, i can recommend mdynamite 7, mplus, mzero... in terms of macross, i would recommend that ppl NOT watch mplus, mzero, m7, mii...

I actually like Macross 7, granted I am not all the way through it yet, but I still like it. It is nice to watch something that isn't all gloom and doom.

My main complaint with Mac 7 is that the toys are crap.

I want a yamato vf-17!

The original story was very intense and at times depressing (the whole earth is pretty much wiped out!) and I loved it, but Mac 7 so far, while having its momets of drama (Phisika getting blasted) is on the whole a lighter series. there is a place for that too. Of course I am a huge transformers fan, so the mechs with faces and lighter stories do not bother me as much.

Either way I am just glad they did not stop with the orriginal or I never would have even seen it. it woudl have faded into obscurity, and nothing would have made me want to take a look at it. Because of the continuing story I found a great big universe of cool animation/robots/and toys I never knew existed, or at least never really cared existed.

all watched all of macross 7 and there were only 1-2 episodes that i thought were ok. yea, they shouldn't have stopped with the original. all of the macross sequels were targeted to a different segment of the population imho.

Edited January 21, 2008 by DJ Loe Kee

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't want macross to be targeted to any specific group. Just something that appeals to anyone.

For me bubblegum crisis (the old one) was a fascinating world. It had a lot of mystery, but the pacing was a bit slow. The mecha designs were great, and I like that idea that the knight sabers are a vigilante group fighting for justice using technology to fight the big bad megacorporation that is taking over everything. It also has nostalgia value because of the music that was in it. (it's not jpop, more like metal/hardrock) Also the characters were each unique and likable and like the ones in macross they each had their own life outside the hero, not letting work define who they are as normal people.

It's the kind of thing that appeals to americans because it takes the mecha show, create heroes, and places them in classic cyberpunk setting which is very popular. (one of my fave types of science fiction) But unlike superheroes they go for the "hero that wins through training and hard work" that is so typical of the japanese anime heroes who prefer using the mecha over radioactive powers.

If you didn't like ghost in the shell movie, please see the ghost in the shell manga and gits tv series. I think the movie took out a lot of things in the manga. If you don't like mystery, politics, realistic depictions of mecha (ie like patlabar where limitations of machines are all laid bare) stay away. Gits has no visible war, but it's the dehumanisation of people in society where they are coming to grips with invasive tech that I like about it. (like blade runner it asks what it means to be human, and I think that was what the message of the movie was trying to be: a homage to blade runner)

For me personally an adult anime is something like ninja scroll which combines the romance and drama with the typical action and violence that appeal to boys but done in a realistic way where the hero is always in a situation of great danger and can't just overcome a problem with ability alone and there is a higher reason for going around killing stuff so there is room for complexity of character - maybe there is some philosophical question in it for audience to ponder at the end? (this is opposite of a kiddy 2d character for an american cartoon who escapes and solves problems in 30 min blocks with a happy ending)

You could say that anime that was designed to appeal to an international audience seems to be do well in the US. And really good quality animation like akira (regardless of whether you are "into it") is worth seeing just for the animation itself. No one can deny that Akira stands up well even today. I mean there is no usage of limited animation or cutting corners to save money that you see in other anime by critics of anime who see those cheap techniques used all the time and can't stand them. It would be so cool if there was a macross F movie after the tv series with that level of detail. I really don't care too much if the japanese accept Akira or Macross Plus or if it was commercially successful, if the animation is very good, it's very good and deserves merit. I understand that they want to profit from the audience that consumes it, but maybe there are some creators who want to aspire to something more than the typical anime they see and maybe secretly want to have non-anime watchers appreciate their work through the medium of animation? Ie going beyond who it was targeted towards and hoping someone who doesn't normally read manga, isn't a fan of a genre, but just wants a good story sees it and gets them interested in other things they have done?

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[DJ Loe Kee]

I don't want macross to be targeted to any specific group. Just something that appeals to anyone.

For me bubblegum crisis (the old one) was a fascinating world. It had a lot of mystery, but the pacing was a bit slow. The mecha designs were great, and I like that idea that the knight sabers are a vigilante group fighting for justice using technology to fight the big bad megacorporation that is taking over everything. It also has nostalgia value because of the music that was in it. (it's not jpop, more like metal/hardrock) Also the characters were each unique and likable and like the ones in macross they each had their own life outside the hero, not letting work define who they are as normal people.

It's the kind of thing that appeals to americans because it takes the mecha show, create heroes, and places them in classic cyberpunk setting which is very popular. (one of my fave types of science fiction) But unlike superheroes they go for the "hero that wins through training and hard work" that is so typical of the japanese anime heroes who prefer using the mecha over radioactive powers.

If you didn't like ghost in the shell movie, please see the ghost in the shell manga and gits tv series. I think the movie took out a lot of things in the manga. If you don't like mystery, politics, realistic depictions of mecha (ie like patlabar where limitations of machines are all laid bare) stay away. Gits has no visible war, but it's the dehumanisation of people in society where they are coming to grips with invasive tech that I like about it. (like blade runner it asks what it means to be human, and I think that was what the message of the movie was trying to be: a homage to blade runner)

For me personally an adult anime is something like ninja scroll which combines the romance and drama with the typical action and violence that appeal to boys but done in a realistic way where the hero is always in a situation of great danger and can't just overcome a problem with ability alone and there is a higher reason for going around killing stuff so there is room for complexity of character - maybe there is some philosophical question in it for audience to ponder at the end? (this is opposite of a kiddy 2d character for an american cartoon who escapes and solves problems in 30 min blocks with a happy ending)

You could say that anime that was designed to appeal to an international audience seems to be do well in the US. And really good quality animation like akira (regardless of whether you are "into it") is worth seeing just for the animation itself. No one can deny that Akira stands up well even today. I mean there is no usage of limited animation or cutting corners to save money that you see in other anime by critics of anime who see those cheap techniques used all the time and can't stand them. It would be so cool if there was a macross F movie after the tv series with that level of detail. I really don't care too much if the japanese accept Akira or Macross Plus or if it was commercially successful, if the animation is very good, it's very good and deserves merit. I understand that they want to profit from the audience that consumes it, but maybe there are some creators who want to aspire to something more than the typical anime they see and maybe secretly want to have non-anime watchers appreciate their work through the medium of animation? Ie going beyond who it was targeted towards and hoping someone who doesn't normally read manga, isn't a fan of a genre, but just wants a good story sees it and gets them interested in other things they have done?

actually, i like the ghost in the shell movie, i didn't like innocence. what i should have said was that the anime that i thought were really good when i first saw them... is now just ok anime now that i've seen other anime like sdf macross, full metal panic, the first 10-15 episodes of death note, megazone 23, the first half of neon genesis evangelion (it's good but it's too depressin' for me to watch over and over like macross and fmp)...

i just rate them lower since i've seen some other shows and movies that are so much better than them. but i have no plans to sell my akira, ghost in the shell and two ninja scrolls dvds (even tho' the widescreen ninja scroll dvd was a rip off i'm still goin' to keep it, at least it has 6.1 audio while the non-widescreen is only 5.1 audio.)

now akira is a different subject, i may read the manga. but so far, i've started on bleach and naruto manga and i'm just not into readin' manga. readin' manga on the pc screen just didn't get me into it... like how readin' the x-men comics use to do to me back in the day. what i really want is an akira anime series. i'll keep akira and ghost in the shell manga on my list tho'.

i just wasn't feelin' bgc, but i thought it was really good when i saw ep. 1 ten years earlier. but i did keep it. i wasn't that bad to where i purposely didn't save it onto dvd-r like a did with ninja scroll the tv series. bgc was the first anime that i rented and got me into anime. akira, ghost in the shell, vampire hunter d, ninja scroll, tenchi muyo on cartoon network, wrath of the ninja and poltergeist report came next after a 3-5 year gap (i hadn't had a chance to rent the next chapter in bgc or rent any other anime for a couple of years). robotech, speed racer and voltron were the original series but i don't count them 'cause i didn't know they were anime when i first saw them. so there was no way that i could have deleted bgc.

[Warmaker]

I'm not sure what's your point here - I don't see anyone arguing against that, and I'm sure we're all aware of that

That being said, just because SDFM was the beginning of it all, doesn't necessarilly means that it's the better series though.

-Sergorn

I'm willing to be corrected by anyone as to what post SDF:M show is superior to the original. As far as I've seen, nothing touches the original. Its only weakness is it's now old animation / art style, which I don't mind, but in these days, many will, I wager.

1/1 LowViz Lurker's thoughts on SDF:M are pretty much spot on with my views on the matter... and prevents me from typing out a whole page worth of text

[Sergorn]

I'm willing to be corrected by anyone as to what post SDF:M show is superior to the original. As far as I've seen, nothing touches the original.

The point is - it's just a matter of *personal* preference ; and the fact that SDFM was the original has litterally *no* relevance as to wether or not it is the best one - regardless of its historical significance. Or to put a non-Macross exemple ; as great as the original Mobile Suit Gundam is, I still think Zeta Gundam is the better series even though it doesn't have the same historical significance as the original.

(And personally I like DYRL and Macross Zero better than the original series actually - and I love Macross 7 just as much as the original).

-Sergorn

[KingNor]

it's just a matter of *personal* preference ; and the fact that SDFM was the original has litterally *no* relevance as to wether or not it is the best one - regardless of its historical significance.

This is very true. SDF isn't the best because it's the first. It's the best and it's the first. I personally feel Kawamori has a bit of Lucas' Free Reign Syndrom. When Kawamori, like Lucas, was under tight budget and had lots of outside influence, he produced gold. Now that he can do what ever he wants, his projects have more and more of his personal quirks to them, and they've become less grounded.

and I love Macross 7 just as much as the original

then, you are lost! It's over, i have the high ground, don't do it!

[Exsedol]

I personally feel Kawamori has a bit of Lucas' Free Reign Syndrom. When Kawamori, like Lucas, was under tight budget and had lots of outside influence, he produced gold. Now that he can do what ever he wants, his projects have more and more of his personal quirks to them, and they've become less grounded.

Exactly. Kawamori went off the deep end as far back as m2012. He's turning in to a howard hughes and it's ruining the franchise.

[KingNor]

Exactly. Kawamori went off the deep end as far back as m2012. He's turning in to a howard hughes and it's ruining the franchise.

...hug?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

We need a sidestory with zentradi rogues (using various stolen destroid, old-school VF, variable glaug and zentradi powered armor) who are like the gato character in gundam 0083. Let SK do the mecha design, and have everything else handled by others. Have them infiltrate a UNG bioweapon lab where the bugs being experimented upon escape the lab, and one by one kill all the scientists and zentradi rogues who freed them.

The survivor must use various Robots vs monsters and escape the planet. (but they are cut off from support outside and can't be rescued until a few days time)

Macross has its scary monster movie with violent and realistic horror. Patlabor WXII-style. Only the singing from a recording will make the monster get distracted enough for the lone survivor to get out of there. But we sense that the monster is part human and feel sorry for it. (perhaps it was hikaru inside the monster before it was mutated into this horrible thing? That would be the hint as to what happened to hikaru, misa, and minmay and would stop people asking about what happened to hikaru misa and minmay. The bug got to them and the scientists couldn't reverse the disease. The truth will never be known.)

Edited January 23, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Radd]

I don't feel Kawamori is pulling a Lucas at all. I've seem people saying that Kawamori worked better when he was a cog in a larger production machine, but wasn't that precisely what happened with Macross 7? I've always heard, and looking through the credits in the Compendium it seems to be true, that Kawamori was significantly more involved with the much acclaimed Plus, than M7 where it appears they were under a tight budget, and much moreso than simple "outside influence", all of the scripting and directing duties were handled outright by other people.

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't feel Kawamori is pulling a Lucas at all. I've seem people saying that Kawamori worked better when he was a cog in a larger production machine, but wasn't that precisely what happened with Macross 7? I've always heard, and looking through the credits in the Compendium it seems to be true, that Kawamori was significantly more involved with the much acclaimed Plus, than M7 where it appears they were under a tight budget, and much moreso than simple "outside influence", all of the scripting and directing duties were handled outright by other people.

I also don't feel Kawamori is "pulling a Lucas," in the aspect that Kawamori works better under tighter restrictions. I feel that Kawamori has simply lost his ability to produce a good series.

As a side note, your statement becomes much more interesting if you look at it through Japan's eyes. Macross Plus, the series that Kawamori allegedly had more control over, was only given a lukewarm reception in Japan. Macross 7, the series that Kawamori allegedly only had an "outside influence" over, was very popular in Japan.

Edited January 24, 2008 by TheLoneWolf