SDF: Macross vs Macross Franchise

[miriya]

I don't care if it's a tv show about a dog taking a dump, if it's called macross I'm a fan. That being said, SDF:M is the best and will always be the best. All the newer movies and shows are still packed with coolness but they went in a direction I'm starting to find annoying. I'll watch whatever they release but it's like Startrek the next gen and the original. "Startrek next gen was superior in many ways but it will never be as recognized as the original" - Wayne Cambel

Ok so get ready for Variable Dog dump Valkyrie. I will have to photoshop a mock up for the first episode. May be too obscene for this forum though. That would also make a great custom. I have some beagle stickers I could put on my old jetfire and some fake poo from the joke shop that I could attach as missiles. I think you have something going here!

[KingNor]

I don't care if it's a tv show about a dog taking a dump, if it's called macross I'm a fan.

i find this devotion admirable.

[Strumvogel]

i find this devotion admirable.

I find it a tad disturbing.

Just kidding, kinda....

I really liked the original Macross series and the DYRL movie, though I regard the movie more as eye candy compared to the more fleshed out storyline of the tv series.

Say what you might about Macross II, it had great music and mecha designs, Metal Siren excepted. Don't care about the story in Mac II either and to add insult to injury they blew it up! How dare they! (being intentionally vague here just incase they are some people that still haven't seen the thing)

Macross Plus I found to be a fine side story of the Macross universe. Loved it.

Macross 0 though I found adds nothing to the Macross universe. Aside from great dogfights and designs I didn't really find either the characters or story engaging.

Mac 7 however was too out there for me. Macross had always been about a hard sci-fi series to me. Macross 7 was pushing it to the fantasy range.

Frontier though is looking great so far but we're just going to wait and see.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Strumvogel

[Radd]

I more or less love the whole franchise. There are things I could do without, and things I feel could have been done better, but as far as franchises go I feel Macross has retained a kind of integrity that many other series lose over such a long period of time.

SDF:M is great, but it's age shows a great deal.

Aside from some minor details, DYRL achieves a kind of timelessness and, while not as fullfilling as a full length series, does a great job at delivering SDF in a movie length form.

Flashback 2012 is what it is, and it gave Macross a kind of mystique with it's all too brief segments featuring the VF-4 and the Megaroad.

Macross II is not one I'm a fan of. I won't get in to why, as it does have its fans and that's fine.

I thought Macross Plus was a brilliant return to greatness. Especially the movie version which proves that longer does not necessarily mean better.

I'm in Graham's camp, for the most part, when it comes to Macross 7, I think it's stronger than SDF in some respects. Though I believe some things could have been handled better. The directing and flow of the story for one example. Personally, I never saw spiritua as a kind of magic, and felt the director was giving shiney lights and sound effects to something a lot more subtle. Dynamite 7 addressed pretty much all my grievances with the series, and was a fun little side story in its own right.

I feel Macross 0 had more going for it than a lot give it credit, but it was at least one full episode short, possibly two. It shows that they were really struggling to wrap things up in that last episode. A lot of people are speculating that Frontier will tie in directly with Zero, if so, and done well, I wonder if that might put Zero in a better light with some people.

Not really much to say about Frontier yet. I think the first episode was phenomenal. Most people seem to agree. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the series.

[Heron]

So DYRL? and Macross7 are equally brilliant?

EDIT: I do not mean to be rude but you must like one more than another, right? Even just a little bit?

No, I just think that each installment of Macross builds upon the mythology of the series as well as bringing something new for viewers to enjoy.

Oh. Macross 0 when I first watched was a visual orgasm with music.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Heron

[miriya]

Oh. Macross 0 when I first watched was a visual orgasm with music.

It was good for me too!!!

[KingNor]

so wrong.

[Sumdumgai]

Don't forget that SDF:M is where it all started: "warera rori konda"

Shammy/Sammy in SDF:M.

skip M+.

Mylene and Elma in M7 and M& Dynamite.

Mao in M0 (with a flashback of Sara before she grew up into the machete wielding b**ch machine).

Ranka seems to fit the category. Toss in Ruka/Luka, and you have the male counterpart.

[Rhapsodyred99]

Going to chime in here.

I am a new Macross fan. I never saw even one episode of Robotech back in the day. I was lured to Macross by seeing a Yamato VF-1s turned into a custom Jetfire. I love the transformers. It made me buy a 1/48 VF-1s, which in turn made me pick up a used Robotech DVD set from my local FYE, since they did not have any Macross Subtitled.

After watching the Robotech macross saga I realized the real one had to be even better. I have since found this site, and gotten to watch Zero, SDFM, DYRL?, Plus, and about 30 episodes of M7. And spent a ton of money on yamatos

Bottom line: if they franchise had begun and died with SDFM most likely there would be no high end toys out there now. I would have never gotten into the Macross world. Yes SDFM was a great series but I like the rest as well.

When i first watched zero All I could think of was WOW. It was visually intense. A visual orgasm ill have to agree. I even liked the story, and the strugle to keep thier culture intact was even more intense and sad when you knew it was futile because in a few short years the Zents were going to level the whole damn planet. and yamato got more of my money...

When I saw Plus I liked it as well (movie version) Sharon's singing was haunting as opposed to bubblegumy as Minmay's was. I really liked it...and yamato gets more of my money...

Macross 7 is not really that bad, it has some humor with the spastic Mylene. But I am a fan of fantasy too so do not look at it as heretical. I love that it has Max and Millia in it. I wish it was focused more on them and thier relationship than anything honestly, but still a good series. And some guy on ebay got my money to buy crappy bandai valks from it... damn you yamato make a VF-17 already!

Holding off on frontier until I can see all of M7 so cant comment.

So yeah long post but because the story kept going new fans are getting drawn in.

Anyway Love Everything Macross.

[chrono]

I am utterly alone :-(

No your not.

Every non-SDF related show after SDFM fails a little more each time. But that's usually what happens with sequels due to them merely showing the updated technology's (technology demo's) and lack of a solid & cohesive character driven story element. It's not uncommon as we see it in every SF franchise show.

[Zinjo]

I'd the main difference between Gundam and Macross IMO... and that Gundam tend to be more... "political"... it often have a lot of political intrigue and manipulation... lots of twist and turn in the story, ambiguous characters and so on... in a way I would say it feels more "thought provocking" than Macross... but Macross IMO is just how to put it... more emotionnal there's just this "something" in Macross that just seems to touch your heart and your soul in a way that no Gundam series ever did (and yet I'm a huge Gundam fan...)

-Sergorn

Well that's probably why Gundam is more popular than Macross in Japan as its full of drama, which is something the Japanese eat up. The most popular TV show in Japan last year was a Korean drama!

Oh, and I don't consider Macross II canon. If I could I would deny its existence. That was one VHS tape I could have spent on something else...

May Macross never focus on a self-righteous news reporter as main character ever again!

LOL, yeah replace him with a self-righteous rock star amature pilot and that's sooo much better...

[thankheaven]

SDFM is the original and best.

But i also think that M Plus was a brilliant return to the macross franchise and i really enjoyed it. Maybe because its not a direct sequel or a re-hash of SDFM in anyway. It does its own thing and fits inside the universe established in SDFM perfectly.

M7 im not too happy about but dig the VF-17, 19 and 22 ofcourse.

M Zero started really well but ended kinda disappointing. Still it has the best valk fights of any series.

M Frontier got some good stuff going for it.

But i would never want to end the Macross Franchise after the first show. That would be like ending the Star Trek franchise after The original series.

As long as quality shows are being made for the franchise im all for it.

[Exsedol]

LOL, yeah replace him with a self-righteous rock star amature pilot and that's sooo much better...

Haha totaly. I would take M2 over M7 anyday

[KingNor]

SDFM is the original and best.

But i also think that M Plus was a brilliant return to the macross franchise and i really enjoyed it. Maybe because its not a direct sequel or a re-hash of SDFM in anyway. It does its own thing and fits inside the universe established in SDFM perfectly.

M7 im not too happy about but dig the VF-17, 19 and 22 ofcourse.

M Zero started really well but ended kinda disappointing. Still it has the best valk fights of any series.

M Frontier got some good stuff going for it.

But i would never want to end the Macross Franchise after the first show. That would be like ending the Star Trek franchise after The original series.

As long as quality shows are being made for the franchise im all for it.

I agree, M+ is a pretty neat miniserise. I liked the beautiful fighter sequences, the music is maybe a tad more universal than minmays..

but in the end. If it meant losing M+ to be rid of M7's magic music, M0's muddling of the purpose of variable fighters and utter strangeness, MII's nonsense, and DYRL's lacking rewrite of SDF's plot points.. I'd do it in an instant.

Thats my position.

[miriya]

I agree, M+ is a pretty neat miniserise. I liked the beautiful fighter sequences, the music is maybe a tad more universal than minmays..

but in the end. If it meant losing M+ to be rid of M7's magic music, M0's muddling of the purpose of variable fighters and utter strangeness, MII's nonsense, and DYRL's lacking rewrite of SDF's plot points.. I'd do it in an instant.

Thats my position.

I think that there are some hypnotists that could probably "help" you by making you believe that SDFm is the only macross and whenever you hear or see anything regarding MII,M+,M7,M0 then it just would not register, as if they did not exist! Or maybe you could convince yourself that all the other macross aside from SDFm is not macross at all but something else. I know that it is a pretty absurd idea but for those who do not want the "other" macross to have existed, then you can just ignore it and then people who like the other macross can enjoy it (to themselves of course). I have to take a nap.....

[KingNor]

I intend to force my opinions and beliefs on others, especially in how they conduct their private lives.

I'm ruthless like that.

[TehPW]

One of you said that the VF-0 is K-man's attempt at hitting the reset button on the VF-1...

This a opinion i agree with, to be sure but what if there is more to this.

/me takes a deep breath

DISHARMONY MOLD!

/me sighs

What IF (assumimg the legal issues of owership of Macross & DYRL are finally resolved in Japan) the VF-0 would be the template for a remake of the VF-1, a NON-touchable by HG version for use to a remake of the orginal series?

something they could sell to the US, or anyplace HG can't cause trouble/prevent showing etc...?

/me ducks from the TNT he thinks is light...

[SpacyAce2012]

oh no.. so is it safe to say you're more of a hardline gundam fan than macross? unacceptable!

I like Gundam, but I'm not what you would call a "hard core" fan.

I consider Macross and Patlabor to be better franchises.

[Mr March]

All this Gundam blasphemy. Gundam 0080 rocks!

/thread

[KingNor]

All this Gundam blasphemy. Gundam 0080 rocks!

/thread

for me, saying "gundam doesn't suck" is blasphemy enough. If you're going to be a heathen, go all the way, my hat is off to you sir.

[MechTech]

There's no school like the old school I say. But I have enjoyed the other series as well. Besides the original, I think MF is getting things back on track from all of the mystery magic mumbo jumbo. Macross is about culture, war and big robots (over simplified)! The other stuff was fom drinking too much saki I think - MT

[KingNor]

i need to see MF.. where can i find episodes?

[Sumdumgai]

I prefer Basara to Hibiki, at least Basara can sing sing sing.

[Heron]

There's no school like the old school I say. But I have enjoyed the other series as well. Besides the original, I think MF is getting things back on track from all of the mystery magic mumbo jumbo. Macross is about culture, war and big robots (over simplified)! The other stuff was fom drinking too much saki I think - MT

Run a search for Macross Frontier on veoh.com

[azrael]

There's no school like the old school I say. But I have enjoyed the other series as well. Besides the original, I think MF is getting things back on track from all of the mystery magic mumbo jumbo. Macross is about culture, war and big robots (over simplified)!

Considering we've only seen 1 episode, I don't even think you can make that comment yet.

[azrael]

i need to see MF.. where can i find episodes?

Have you looked at the pinned topics lately?

[KingNor]

Have you looked at the pinned topics lately?

as a matter of fact, i havn't.

I just saw episode 1 though, granted with out subtitles, but honestly, it didn't need them.

It does look promicing, the VF's look pretty sweet minus their space armor, which looks ass.

The one that comes in and gets beat up by that space bug actually looked cool.

[Aegis!]

I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with KingNor on this one.

This might sound like blasphemy, but IMO Macross would be nothing without its sequels, as great as SDF was. If everything ended with the original series Macross would be nothing but just a fond memory of our childhood, something buried in the history of anime, as many 80s series have suffered ( Mospeada anyone ? - RT:SC doesn't count BTW).

Every Macross series has its faults, the difference being in that the original is forgiven for the fact that it was an introductory series so we never had to compare it to any previous series, hence it was conceptually flawless. It was our first ever encounter with the Macross concept.

For me every series has added something to the franchise, even if it's just for media awareness.

DYRL elevated Macross to a cult level franchise, something which would've been impossible with just a TV series.

M+ rejuvenated the entire Macross universe and added new levels of depth to the Macross concept: Valks, Music and Human struggle (in a post SW1 universe).

M7, although not of my entire liking, introduced the whole idea of human exploration in space. If only they'd directed the whole series as they did in Dynamite I think people would've appreciated more this sequel.

I regard M0 as one of the best additions to the franchise since M+, even though some people keep bashing it for its lack of development (maybe it's because they exhausted all possible M7 bashing topics, probably they need a new punching bag), Why ? not because I forget about plot or characters in the presence of mind blowing CG visuals or that I actually liked the mumbo jumbo (that's only if you see things through the islanders eyes, it might as well be all genetics and overtechnology). It's because it's the first ever macross production in which BW and SK have had the balls to unveil the mysteries of Protoculture so directly and into such level of detail. Everything before Zero was rather vague.

As for Frontier, I like what I see so far, it seems like SK has come to terms with his personal grudge against the franchise. From what I see so far it reminds me of the M7 Trash Manga, maybe the froating head is taking some cues from Mikimoto.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Aegis!

[KingNor]

so as of this post, the anti-franchise crowd is 25% of the MW population. You have to admit that is a significant ammount. If you consider how many of you might have answered the other way if DYRL and M+ were as far as the franchise went, I think it's pretty interesting as many of us as there are would be happier with just SDF.

I think what's even more interesting is how few of those 25% actually posted anything. I wonder what this all means.

[Mr March]

It means that for a quarter of the fandom who actually read this thread and voted (which is not representative of MW as a whole), nostalgia was more than enough to sustain their fandom. I'd say it speaks quite highly of SDF Macross and it's importance as an anime. It also means that those who didn't vote due to the lack of an option, such as myself, were not represented at all.

[Radd]

Ja, I think a lot more people fall into the "I hate some parts, but love others" category that doesn't have an option. It's no secret that many Macross fans hate M7, but love MII. Or hate MII and love M7. Hate M7 and love M0. Etcetera, etcetera....

[DJ Loe Kee]

i haven't even bothered to vote so the percentages will not be accurate. the macross sequels are good anime (i've seen some bad sequels like the ninja scroll tv series). it's just that they didn't have the same "feel" as sdf macross.

sdf macross = sdf macross

sdf macross dryl = sdf macross

macross plus = ghost in the shell (a.i.)

macross zero = ninja scroll (supernaturally enemies)

macross 7 = ??? (i'll say pokemon 'cause it seems kiddie like to me, but i've never watched the pokemon series...)

macross frontier = is it finally back to sdf macross?!? i hope so

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Macross needs bugs imo. Mospeada had them. And it fits in well with the islanders being so nature loving because they must have experienced destruction in ancient times so they want to preserve life. Weapons of war being seen as evil enriches the franchise and makes them seem more realistic.

You now have humans technology mixed with pc, islanders with brains designed to interface with the highest of all technology (like an ancient key - you've seen this in many indiana jones style adventure movies where the world's religious artifacts are believed to have magic occult powers and must be gathered together in order to obtain ultimate power and every bounty hunter in the movie mutually uses each other to get it and then backstabs the other to keep it all for themselves) , mind-controlled giants used for warfare by the PC, possessed biological weapons which came to life when a spirit from another dimension took control of them but required the souls of the victims to feed upon (lets just call them "space demons from space hell", like the story of the vampire who is forced to kill humans and feed on people it loves despite having some emotions and not liking it so we feel pity for the "misunderstood monster" like in those old monster movies where the villagers demand to have it hunted and killed to feel at peace due to fear).

Bugs are the next enemy. PC must have experimented in many different things because they were so smart. All the mystery about origins of humans and creation of zentradi is like one long backstory. Maybe we evolved from the bugs, and these bugs are our brothers but unlike us just have smarter brains? (like how monkeys are like dumber versions of humans? And that might explain why the bugs seem like piloted mecha?)

I wonder if harmony gold would block a release of macross f if it didn't have the un spacy kite symbol? Is the mystery of why there is no un spacy kite symbol anymore, to do with some attempt to bring future macross shows into other regions?

Maybe they can explain that the government changed the logo by that year, because the old one looked crap to them?

The reason I like gundam is that it is in basic form just a show about a knight fighting for peace. Going to war with others to end war. It's sword (beam saber) and shield (the special armor) is what makes it the hero robot because it doesn't need to use guns and can disarm the attacker in a peaceful way if it wants to.

In macross you don't have a hero, but an ordinary joe who gets caught up in real world events surrounding him and being an unlikely hero, is able to save people without necessarily being of any importance to the rest of the universe. The original reason for saving the damsel in distress is out of an emotion to protect the cute girl and have her like you. But it then matures into something more: protect everything. It's really the core of what makes a hero likeable because they are doing it out of unselfish reasons. Although they are both mecha shows with robots, I find the core for what makes SDF:Macross unique is the "grounding in reality" that it brings to the universe.

Hikaru is not amuro ray with a psychic ability, just a skilled pilot using training. He can die easily if he is in the wrong place just like a cannon fodder, so there is that sense of danger we all want. (this enemy is a serious and very real threat! some of this was lost in macross 7 and one of the main reasons people criticise it as a sailor moon "monster of the week" show. The show even plays with your mind by titling one episode: "Basara Dies!" and then having him come back to life ) So long as the characters are kept grounded in reality and seem like real people, not unstoppable heroes like Basara, I think the fans of SDF:M won't worry so much.

Southern cross and mospeada had flat characters, death was not common for the main characters, (no danger) and after the war was over you really didn't wonder: "so what happened later after the war?" like you did for SDF:M where you wondered what happened to the three main characters. That is what the adults like imo: it's the soap opera element that you didn't get from mospeada and SC, where the world exists beyond the three characters and when they grow old and age, life still goes on just as in the real world. (the events are later noted in whatever sequel is made for their significance) But as I mentioned, that space war I is now over, so there needs to be some new threat or a new thing for humans to see. SDF:M told its story, and the fact is new stories need to be told that gives us a bit more info rather than a repeat of the same thing like with gundam. Ie the story of a lone knight fighting for "justice and peace" but while doing so, not actually killing people to achieve the goals. (which if it did kill, would make it a hypocrite no different than the trained soldiers fighting for the government or politicians for power or control)

SDF:M = the soap

DYRL = war story of two sexes who make love after almost killing each other

Plus = top gun

Zero = indiana jones (antiun and un are just rival bounty hunters archealogists fighting over ancient treasure for power)

7 = monster of the week show

hopefully macross f is more like SDF:M (grounding in reality, feels like a soap with drama/realism/sadness) but not a retread of old things like gundam. (which is the criticism I often see about it: it's just milking an old idea to make new toys to sell to children, instead of expanding and making the new show different) If they just show the limits of the characters, we get more realism, danger, drama.

Edited January 19, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Warmaker]

Of the two poll choices, I chose the first since it's closer to what I feel.

No Macross production comes close to SDF:M. DYRL? is great namely due to the artwork and animation (at least to me). But due to the time constraints of a movie, it had to chop down and alter the story from the TV series. If a character wasn't one of the major ones, then they had very short, very minor roles in DYRL?. Heck, Quamzin, who played a huge role in the TV series, was merely fodder in the movie and saying very little before getting killed.

Macross + was so so to me. Blaspheme to some, but the story and characters didn't grow on me whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I despised the 2 main charactrs, Guld and Isamu, but I relegated Isamu lower since he's just an all-around-a**hole. The only good thing with Macross + were the YF-19/21 and the flight / action sequences. Everything else was a painful pause before the YF's were flying again.

Macross 7? I won't go there right now. I've had plenty of Macross 7 hate threads in the past here.

I'll hold off on Macross Frontier until I see it.

SDF:M nearly had it all. Lots of characters and room for development, many of whom had the chance to shine. Characters had time do DO something, unlike in DYRL?. Great mecha. Lots of action, enough episodes for story / character development. Artwork and animation was good overall for it's day, but some of the shortcomings are very evident when the show was new.

[KingNor]

what baffles me in my likes/dislikes in macross, is how, while not really interested in watching it end to end, M7 has become sort of an interesting show to me.

I find watching the VF-1's in new context utterly facinateing now. In SDF they were the newest baddest thing in the sky, in M7 they're old, used for all sorts of unglorious things. Seeing Max and Millia in the new context and PATICULARLY Millia keeping her Valk in working order, that is a awesome demension to her character.

Because of it's closer ties to SDF I'm sort of finding more interesting than any of the other macross's. There is a LOT I don't like, but sad to say it feels closer to the original than some of the others in quite a few ways. Granted I hav't seen much and tend to fast forward when ever it looks like Basara or FireBomba are gonna sing so... I'm sure I'm missing a lot.

Anyway Thanks for posting Warmaker. :-)

Maybe one of the things that endears me to SDF is that in the shows diagetic world, the people in the show are closer to being like "us" than most other Macross show. Space travel is still not something the general public are used to, aliens are new, no one knows what's going on. It's no people starting out in an interstellar space vessal in the far reaches of the galaxie. The heros of Space War 1 are people that started out more or less like you or me.

That may be a big part of it.