The Ultimate Macross Variable Fighter!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah. Give it also a Baton and shotgun as well as an omni consumer products logo on the shield. There would also be a speaker pod gun with a strap so you could strap it to its back like the one on the gunpod of the vf-1 though.

The shield and baton are for when there are riots.

speaker pod gun would be for space when they need to tell them to pull over if they couldn't hear the siren in space.

For easy use the three close quaters combat moves are:

Pinpoint barrier punch to the face.

Shield ram to push them back

baton swirl which leads into smack to the knee.

Combined with the exo suits (make bubble gum crisis versions of those) the police will be able to properly control violent destroid crimes. The police would only call in the labor crime unit for these types of crimes involving mecha-jacked valkries which the ordinary police can't handle because the valkries fly too fast. Many criminals will prefer to spacefold by the time the police get there so speed is of utmost importance. The zentradi gangs living in the poorer neighborhood areas of the city cause a lot of trouble for the purebred humans who don't tolerate the troublemakers since the first space war. So these cops need to be ready for when the big fights break out and drunken zentradi start getting in their vintage destroids to hold their illegal street fights after being depressed that there is barely any space to hold street races aboard a colony ship. In the old days it was just bikie gangs, now its people with illegally obtained mecha holding fighting tournaments and organised fight clubs underground in heavily modified robots due to boredom. Much more dangerous.

Edited January 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Kurisama]

YF-19 FTW! VF-9 Gerwalk is gorgeous too me thinks - The Zero and VF-1 are also beautiful. Thats my 2 cents - which i'm sure everyone wants to know...

[JB0]

In the old days it was just bikie gangs, now its people with illegally obtained mecha holding fighting tournaments and organised fight clubs underground in heavily modified robots due to boredom. Much more dangerous.

Your vision of the future inspires me, and gives me hope.

[SpacyAce2012]

I'm a big fan of the VF-1 and YF-19. The VF-11 holds a special place in my heart.

But I voted for the VF-2SS. Something about all that firepower (SAP), in such a sleek package, is just downright sexy.

[Macross007]

I have to go with Isamu's and Basara's variable fighter.

[Radd]

I compare the VF-4 to the A-7 Corsair there ugly ducklings in my book. But if Yamato or Hasegawa decided to produce the VF-4 I would buy it just to say I have one.

Are we talking about the same VF-4? I don't see how it compares to the A-7 corsair at all. Are you sure you're not thinking the VA-3 or something?

[VF-7000 THUNDERHAWK]

Are we talking about the same VF-4? I don't see how it compares to the A-7 corsair at all. Are you sure you're not thinking the VA-3 or something?

I meant what I said the VF-4 and the A-7 Corsair are ugly ducklings!

[Greyryder]

I gotta vote for the VF-2SS, with the VF-1J a very close second.

[Black Spiral]

I'd have to go with the DYRL version of Roy's Skull 001 as my all time fave valk, which IMHO was 'the only' Skull 001. I wasn't a big fan of how they tossed the 001 squadron coding off to Max and then Hikaru after Roy's death...to me, it seemed to take away from Roy's death.

A close second to Skull 001 would have to be Isamu's YF-19. I mean seriously...this thing was so overpowered and agile that it actually killed and or mangled like what? 4 of the original test pilots before Isamu? I mean come on, it took a lunatic's raw piloting skill just to get this thing under control let alone sorted out for testing against the YF-21.

A distant third would have to be the Mac II, VF-2SS SAP Special with all five of it's accompanying 'squire' drones. Firepower? 'nuff said.

[Kelsain]

I meant what I said the VF-4 and the A-7 Corsair are ugly ducklings!

Whew, thought for a minute that you were dissing the F-4U. It would have been on.

Personally, I voted for the 11. As I've mentioned before, I like it's utilitarian look. The asteroid scene in M+ was one of the best action scenes in all of Macross, but oh, too short... Finally, it was the first true successor to the VF-1 I ever saw. For the longest time, I couldn't figure how they went from the VF-1 to the Logan... Then I wised up upon seeing MII. The VF-2SS is pretty cool, and I always liked the almost Zentraedi look to the fast packs (or whatever they're called). But then I happened upon M+ at the video store and saw the prodigal VF-11. In love ever since, desperately yearning for a 1/72 Hasegawa or 1/60 Yamato... sigh.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Kelsain

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Hopefully the upcoming vf-11 toy doesn't have the damn shoulders spread so far apart. You hear me yamato? Don't make the arms so far apart this time. I couldn't stand that about the battroid mode so I never have it displayed in that mode for the 1/72.

[Nausica]

To me there is only one VF that is true to the my image of macross..

and that is the VF-1 series especially the 1J cause of the Head appearance..

the VF-1 is the only VF mecha i can believe in when it is in Battloid mode

the rest of the VF series looks like pure Sci-fi in comparence..

still it is all fun to watch.. and that i believe is the essence of watching anime...

[VF-7000 THUNDERHAWK]

Whew, thought for a minute that you were dissing the F-4U. It would have been on.

Personally, I voted for the 11. As I've mentioned before, I like it's utilitarian look. The asteroid scene in M+ was one of the best action scenes in all of Macross, but oh, too short... Finally, it was the first true successor to the VF-1 I ever saw. For the longest time, I couldn't figure how they went from the VF-1 to the Logan... Then I wised up upon seeing MII. The VF-2SS is pretty cool, and I always liked the almost Zentraedi look to the fast packs (or whatever they're called). But then I happened upon M+ at the video store and saw the prodigal VF-11. In love ever since, desperately yearning for a 1/72 Hasegawa or 1/60 Yamato... sigh.

I would never make fun of the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, it is one of the greatest Fighter jets in U.S. History.

As for the VF-11 Thunderbolt, its one of my favorite VF mecha as well. In my opinion it looks more graceful then the VF-1 Valkerie.

The VF-2SS Valkerie II is a nice VF mecha, It looks so cool with the SAP system. The fire power on those things are awesome.

I'm with you there, I wish Hasegawa would produce a 1/72 scale of the VF-11.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't get why 1J head turret is so popular. 1S looks smoother and more aerodynamic to me. Is it because it hangs down like a nutsack in fighter mode so it makes the fighter look ugly or just that you hate rounder curved shapes? Four head lasers means you can fire more rapid stream of laser pulses so it is more practical as an antimissile weapon. In gerwalk as an anti-personell weapon it can kill little targets quicker then a single or dual head laser head turret. The 1J reminds me of Cyclops from the x-men.

Edited January 12, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

I admit, I love the VF-1J head unit the most of the VF-1 variants, but the VF-1S is also a really good design. I think the one aspect of the VF-1S head unit design I don't like is the fact that it's just a bit too simple. It looks just a bit too much like a helmet rather than a head. That's not inherently bad but, as I've mentioned before when stating my preference for explicitly mechanical looking designs as opposed to more "humanoid" creations, I like the more mechanical look of the VF-1J head unit.

[Nausica]

I admit, I love the VF-1J head unit the most of the VF-1 variants, but the VF-1S is also a really good design. I think the one aspect of the VF-1S head unit design I don't like is the fact that it's just a bit too simple. It looks just a bit too much like a helmet rather than a head. That's not inherently bad but, as I've mentioned before when stating my preference for explicitly mechanical looking designs as opposed to more "humanoid" creations, I like the more mechanical look of the VF-1J head unit.

my point exactly its more unique with the 1J

when mechanical heads of VF's become too human looking it

kinda gives too much "gundam look" thats why the 1S is my least favorable head!

same goes for heads of most the succesors of VF-1

Edited January 12, 2008 by Nausica

[JB0]

I admit, I love the VF-1J head unit the most of the VF-1 variants, but the VF-1S is also a really good design. I think the one aspect of the VF-1S head unit design I don't like is the fact that it's just a bit too simple. It looks just a bit too much like a helmet rather than a head. That's not inherently bad but, as I've mentioned before when stating my preference for explicitly mechanical looking designs as opposed to more "humanoid" creations, I like the more mechanical look of the VF-1J head unit.

That's the same way I view it.

That and.... the M&Ms were 1J.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

..but these are human-shaped robots with 5 fingers and a thumb. *shakes head* They go into space and use the arms the way a human would to hold and shoot a gun. (rather than having gun turrets are arms like the destroids who have no head at all) They are humanoid enough in other ways that the head is not going to matter much.

face it, you subconsciously think it's a nutsack that hangs under the fighter mode so you are scared it will get hit. That is why you fear it. /joke

My reason for liking it is that smooth surfaces seem to be more "futuristic". Like the hardsuit things in bubblegum crisis. The smoother it is, the more practical they seem when moving through the air even though it will make very little difference. I don't necessarily think of it as a humanoid helmet, just a part of a machine (like a boat or a surfboard or head of a golfclub) that just happens to want to have a smoother surface for some reason. Wheels and ball bearings are smooth and rounded, and they are mechanical and used for some purpose in a greater thing. Why can't a head turret be?

Edited January 12, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

..but these are human-shaped robots with 5 fingers and a thumb. *shakes head* They go into space and use the arms the way a human would to hold and shoot a gun. (rather than having gun turrets are arms like the destroids who have no head at all) They are humanoid enough in other ways that the head is not going to matter much.

Yes, but this is not a discussion so much of the degree of mechanization as it is personal preference. All the same, one of the things I love about the humanoid robot designs of the Macross mecha is their clearly inhuman appearance. The Valkyries look more like robots than many other mechanical robot designs in anime. As an examples I've posted here before, the Gundams are so humanoid in appearance as to be almost human in proportion. If you took away scale, could you really tell the RX-78-2 Gundam was a giant robot and not just a guy in an armored suit like the Master Chief from Halo?

That's why I love the Valkyries, because they are so decidedly non-human. If scale was taken away from the VF-1, I could instantly tell it had to be a robot. The torso and hips give it away completely. The YF-19 and YF-21 are even better, looking even more decided inhuman than even the VF-1, which is why they are some of my all time favorite designs. Going back to the head units of the VF-1, the VF-1J just looks more inhuman and mechanical, hence it's my favorite. The VF-1S is also somewhat mechanical, but just not as much and it's style simply isn't as attractive to my personal tastes that it would beat the VF-1J head unit.

[JB0]

..but these are human-shaped robots with 5 fingers and a thumb. *shakes head* They go into space and use the arms the way a human would to hold and shoot a gun. (rather than having gun turrets are arms like the destroids who have no head at all) They are humanoid enough in other ways that the head is not going to matter much.

Which is a long-running gripe I have with most mechs.

I LOVE the destroids, in part because they acknowledge there is no rational reason for them to be humanoid.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I do see what you mean: for example I like that the SDF-1 is very pieced together as seperate parts docked with each other to make a whole, rather than one big giant robot that has to resemble the parts of a human. It's not obvious that the humanoid shape is even there or that it is trying to look human. I don't like that about the battleship in macross 7. I prefer the old SDF-1.

I do think it is still possible to have a curvy and rounded shape but retain the simplicity that makes it feel non-human though. The Qrau to me for example, has a nice futuristic look to it (no blocky or hard edges) and those smooth curves and claws still remind you that this is machine to fight stuff with and not trying to follow the human body in every way. (it's got better, more practical, feet than the VF-1, the fingers look sturdy, and the faceplate sits right where the pilot should be looking out through her mechanical "suit". So its head is a practical and functional part of the whole machine that serves a purpose. It is like this because it is intuitive to a pilot just like the right control stick being in control of the right arm/gun, and the left control stick being in control of the left arm/gun just makes practical sense. If the valk ever has to *"swim", the rounded head would make it just a little easier and possibly faster. (streamlined curves pushing water to the sides)

*both in battroid and in gerwalk. I am reminded of a scene where hikaru has the vf-1 floating in the water at one point.

Edited January 13, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Nausica]

ok i cant keep silent about this no more... as i have seen written

alot of times throughout the WWW...

erhmm in space shape and size doesnt matter, in terms of speed..

only things that can be improved is agility.

looking at the SDF-M anime where u actually see SDF-1 from behind

u notice that when in flight the engine keeps thrusting.. wich isnt neccesary lol

u only need to keep thrusting untill u have reached max speed... then u can turn off

engine.. and ull keep moving the same speed untill u brake...

(space dust and solar winds arent enough to brake a ship..

well only if the plan to fly without stopping for 1million years..

so the only thing to give a VF is enough vernier thrusters.(for quick turns, brake and altering direction .

then size and shape doesnt matter..

Edited January 13, 2008 by Nausica

[Mr March]

I do think it is still possible to have a curvy and rounded shape but retain the simplicity that makes it feel non-human though.

Of course it is. My opinion and this particular point are by no means mutually exclusive. In fact, the VF-1 is much smoother and more rounded than nearly every other anime mecha of it's time. But digressing, there are many examples of smooth and supple humanoid mechanical designs in robot anime that appear non-human in proportion. Some of the more curved and rounded Mortar Headds from Five Star Stories are a perfect example.

Just a note, I think the Q-Rau is a poor example to make your point about rounded, smooth mecha that are non-human in proportion. The Q-Rau basically IS a suit of armor and due to the size of the Zentradi pilots, the Q-Rau has to be designed to accommodate human appendages within it's arms, legs and head. I do understand your points and I agree, but the Q-Rau doesn't exactly work as a design for comparison.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Mr March

[KingNor]

I wasn't a big fan of how they tossed the 001 squadron coding off to Max and then Hikaru after Roy's death...to me, it seemed to take away from Roy's death.

well in real life if a pilot dies in a plane they don't retire the plane or the squadron, even if it is the wing commander.

Look how long the real life jolly rogers have been around, you think they hanv't ever lost a CO?

While maybe it would have been nice to have a big pomp episode of the entire SDF crew mourning the loss of Roy and retiring his plane and liquidating Skull Squadron, the fact that none of that happend gave his deat real meaning.

War is hell, you die, and hardly anyone notices, and you move on.

Fits the over all theme of SDF Macross quite well.

All this culminates in my liking of everything SDF above the rest.

OH and one more thing, a few pages back someone had said that the VF-1 gunpod was boring and had no detail. Well if it's good enough for the US military, it's good enough for my anime. Again what i love about the VF-1 and SDF is when in doubt the show would lean on reality, not spiky anime tech.

[KingNor]

Which is a long-running gripe I have with most mechs.

I LOVE the destroids, in part because they acknowledge there is no rational reason for them to be humanoid.

even the destroids sorta bother me. though macross is nearly unique in supplying a somewhat believable reason for giant robots: threat of giant invading aliens.

This is why the implication of Mzero that transformable mecha planes are just inherently bad ass compaired to conventional fighters pisses me off.

IRL the first transformable fighter plane would be less capeable than the purpose built fighters of the day. Take for example VTOL tech in real life.

imagine if when the harrier was designed it somehow was 10x better than every other plane in the air. or if the f-117 stealth fighter (which maxes out at around 600mph) could go mach 5 or soething.

NEW TECH = substandard performance in most cases when first introduced.

It's a very anime and hollywood concept to think a prototype will be better than the production run. I think concept cars have given us that impression, "man look how cool that car is, if only the production car was that good." But in reality those concept cars are just fluff, they dont' work usually and if they do they're 90% some other tried and true car, the prototype never* sets the land speed record.

*usually :-)

In SDF the VF-1 was designed and sent into the feild. When war broke out it was apparent the plane was only just capeable of doing it's job so the fast/super packs and armor kits were designed.

One of my many problems with the subsequent VF's (and the VF-0, goddamn i hate the VF-0) is that they took a cool concept from SDF and turned it into an inexplicable staple of the serise. now EVERY vf comes out with a fast pack kit, why not just make the plane faster, why do they keep building planes that can't handle the work? They had a legitimate "unknown" before, but now it's just stupid.

ok ok,, geeze you guys. got me ranting :-)

[JB0]

ok i cant keep silent about this no more... as i have seen written

alot of times throughout the WWW...

erhmm in space shape and size doesnt matter, in terms of speed..

only things that can be improved is agility.

But as Valkyries are aerospace fighters, aerodynamics DOES matter.

They are intended to operate in both space AND an atmosphere(and I'm of the opinion they were designed for atmosphere first, space second).

looking at the SDF-M anime where u actually see SDF-1 from behind

u notice that when in flight the engine keeps thrusting.. wich isnt neccesary lol

u only need to keep thrusting untill u have reached max speed... then u can turn off

engine.. and ull keep moving the same speed untill u brake...

There's no such thing as max speed in space.

As long as you're thrusting, you're accelerating. Painfully slowly, if the thrust is very low or you've reached a significant fraction of c, but thrust = acceleration in space. Always.

The fact that you understand that you won't slow down once you turn the thrusters off, but not WHY, is sad.

And SINCE thrust = acceleration...

The longer you burn your engines, the shorter your trip.

It actually MAKES SENSE for the Macross' engines to be in constant burn outside of battle. They want to return home as fast as possible.

so the only thing to give a VF is enough vernier thrusters.(for quick turns, brake and altering direction .

then size and shape doesnt matter..

Actually, the verniers will largely only alter orientation. The big engines in the back are the only ones capable of generating an appreciable alteration of velocity in a reasonable time frame.

Braking thrusters are an exception, and are of limited use, since they're oriented along the primary thrust axis(and far smaller than the main engines). The plane HAS to be facing the exact direction it's traveling to use them. Or face the exact opposite direction and use the more powerful main engine to stop faster.

They're not the best way to slow down, by any stretch of the imagination. They're only really useful during ceremonial performances and landing.

Also, the wings serve a useful purpose in space. They get the thrusters on the wingtips farther from the center of mass. Which means it's easier to initiate the desired rotation from them. Simple lever mechanics. The fighter nose is a good place for similar reasons, though the effect isn't as pronounced.

[JB0]

In SDF the VF-1 was designed and sent into the feild. When war broke out it was apparent the plane was only just capeable of doing it's job so the fast/super packs and armor kits were designed.

One of my many problems with the subsequent VF's (and the VF-0, goddamn i hate the VF-0) is that they took a cool concept from SDF and turned it into an inexplicable staple of the serise. now EVERY vf comes out with a fast pack kit, why not just make the plane faster, why do they keep building planes that can't handle the work? They had a legitimate "unknown" before, but now it's just stupid.

To be fair, a lot of the later FAST packs are less jury-rigged than the original.

You could make the argument that they allow a single fighter design to be optimized for atmosphere or vacuum operations by swapping parts, saving the expense of buying and maintaining a second sets of fighters.

Of course, the FAST packs on the 19 and 21/22 would be better integrated into the design.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

erhmm in space shape and size doesnt matter, in terms of speed..

only things that can be improved is agility.

But going by that logic robots don't have to have arms to shoot a gun. Just gun arms like the destroid. The reason I mentioned the round shape was to illutrate that there are as many practical functional reasons for making a shape more streamlined as there would be to leaving it simple and box/rectangular shaped like something off a tank. (by using examples of things like the surface of a dolphin, fish, boats, etc)

And remember the valk isn't just used for space: unlike gundam these are designed for atmospheric combat as well. Otherwise kawamori wouldn't have to bother making them look like fighters and just go the gundam route with robots lying on their face.

Just a note, I think the Q-Rau is a poor example to make your point about rounded, smooth mecha that are non-human in proportion. The Q-Rau basically IS a suit of armor and due to the size of the Zentradi pilots, the Q-Rau has to be designed to accommodate human appendages within it's arms, legs and head. I do understand your points and I agree, but the Q-Rau doesn't exactly work as a design for comparison.

But that's what I mean: the zentradi went a different path: being "1 with the machine". The head is where their own head should be, the arms are controlled by where their arm would be, the legs are what their real legs would be doing out in space. No need to create complexity where complexity isn't required. VFs can get away with this since they are fighters and the people are "used to using flight controls" so it's intuitive. But my point about the shapes of robots is that the Qrau uses more smooth surfaces where there isn't stuff just "hanging off" it (to remind you this is a machine with parts all over the place) and this is actually useful/functional/practical for combat reason:

If I punch you in the head with a clenched claw that looks like a boxing glove that is not going to smash the delicate fingers. If the lasers (whatever those gatling arm guns are) are integrated INSIDE the armor they can't be snapped off like the vf-1 head laser. The shape of the outside armor which looks humanoid hides the machinery inside. Just like when you open up the hood of your car all the mechanical stuff will be revealed, hidden by the sexy outer frame. I like both types of mecha: the destroid and valk, but I just wanted to say that smoother surfaces and "helmet-like" shapes are no different from the curvy, practical, surface of the Qrau. Just because it's not box shaped or angular doesn't mean it's not machine-like. Yes organic things have smooth surfaces but it's not like this is exclusive to living organisms only. I think the block shapes are appealing more because it reminds us that these are mass-produced in large number cheaply, rather than made to look like special luxury items with all the bell and whistles. It shows that humans have a limit to their budget and gradually improve stuff when the profit made from the earlier stuff gives them the funding to keep improving over time, adding realism to the macross world. (the toilet bowl shaped head turret to me just shows that there is better parts you can add to the base mecha, like how you can upgrade the pc you have based on your unique requirements and income stream, not be forced to buy the most expensive setup)

This is why the implication of Mzero that transformable mecha planes are just inherently bad ass compaired to conventional fighters pisses me off.

I think they just wanted to show that Overtechnology = aliens enhanced tech, and it just so happens that this tech is superior to human tech. If the aliens had dedicated fighers that look just like ours on the outside, (no transformation) they would still be the hero machine because of the benefits to scientific knowledge that the crashed ship brought about.

Maybe if SK does an area 88 type anime show and ignores robots, just have fictional fighters then people wouldn't have to complain. (but would the toy sell as much a valkyrie? Or would it be like the sales of destroids which are dedicated walking gun turrets?)

Edited January 13, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Black Spiral]

I totally agree with 'KingNor'on how military aircraft and any serialized military kit in general is ultimately recycled; regardless of whether or not the original user of which died using or not. But... my original comments were for Roy's DYRL Skull 001, which was completely destroyed along with him, deterring it from being handed off to anyone. The TV series Skull 001 of course, was indeed handed off to another pilot after Roy stubbornly flew it home despite his wounds.

War is certainly hell and the general public don't tend to pay as much attention to the loss of their own troops as much as they should perhaps. Soldiers differ radically in this regard I can assure you. Soldiers...unlike the general public in some unfortunate cases, definetly notice the loss of their friends. Believe me, I've had enough of my closest friends come home in a box from Afghanistan to notice.

In the end, I was simply voting for Roy's Skull 001 as my personal choice for ultimate Valk. To each his own of course.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Black Spiral

[Mr March]

Most Valkyries are general purpose superiority fighters, at least the main line fighters. Also, there isn't a huge array of variable vehicles like there are fighters in the big military organizations in real life. The UNS and New UNS function as the main branch of the UNG's military and utilize only a few different models of variable fighter at most. Even functions such as Bombing and Elint are performed by modified versions of the very same Valkyrie rather than a specialized craft. As time goes on a few more variable bombers, variable attack craft and variable shuttles were introduced, but these are small potatoes compared to the variable fighter forces used in actual action and there is nowhere near the vast array of specialized craft and support vehicles that would be needed to support a military like the UNS. If anything, their forces should be larger and far, FAR more varied than a conventional military. However, just the opposite is true.

Having analyzed the UNG military as such, I see no problem with the continued use of Armored and Super Part systems for the Valkyries when they are general purpose vehicles expected to operate in so many different, specialized roles. It's impossible to design a single vehicle for every specialized operation in which it is to be used, that's why specialized vehicles are built. But since this isn't the case nor policy of the UNG, it only makes sense that different hardware suites would be utilized to suit whatever specialized sortie in which the general purpose Valkyries are to be deployed.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Mr March

[Mr March]

But that's what I mean: the zentradi went a different path: being "1 with the machine". The head is where their own head should be, the arms are controlled by where their arm would be, the legs are what their real legs would be doing out in space. No need to create complexity where complexity isn't required. VFs can get away with this since they are fighters and the people are "used to using flight controls" so it's intuitive. But my point about the shapes of robots is that the Qrau uses more smooth surfaces where there isn't stuff just "hanging off" it (to remind you this is a machine with parts all over the place) and this is actually useful/functional/practical for combat reason:

If I punch you in the head with a clenched claw that looks like a boxing glove that is not going to smash the delicate fingers. If the lasers (whatever those gatling arm guns are) are integrated INSIDE the armor they can't be snapped off like the vf-1 head laser. The shape of the outside armor which looks humanoid hides the machinery inside. Just like when you open up the hood of your car all the mechanical stuff will be revealed, hidden by the sexy outer frame. I like both types of mecha: the destroid and valk, but I just wanted to say that smoother surfaces and "helmet-like" shapes are no different from the curvy, practical, surface of the Qrau. Just because it's not box shaped or angular doesn't mean it's not machine-like. Yes organic things have smooth surfaces but it's not like this is exclusive to living organisms only. I think the block shapes is appealing more because it reminds us that these are mass produced in large number cheaply not made to look special luxury items with all the bell and whistles. It shows that humans have a limit to their budget and gradually improve stuff when the profit made from the earlier stuff gives them the funding to keep improvements over time, adding realism to the macross world.

I have to honestly say I don't know what you're talking about.

My original reply was an answer to the question that was posted: why some fans (like me) prefer the VF-1J head unit more than a VF-1S head unit. To do so I explained that the VF-1J satisfied my own personal preference for a more mechanical appearance. But as I said, "more mechanical" does not necessarily mean square/blocky at the expense of smooth/round. I repeat, smooth/round is not necessarily less robotic or mechanical in appearance, nor did I ever write that it was.

What I did write was my love for a mechanical design with clearly robotic form and structure as opposed to mechanical design where form and structure appear far too human. Whether a Valkyrie is round/smooth or square/blocky, I prefer the Valkyrie designs because they are more robotic and less human in form and structure. The VF-1 has an inhuman shaped torso and hips; hence it's form and structure is more robotic and more mechanical to my eyes. If I was a science fiction fan, but didn't know anything about Macross, you could sit me down in front of a single scene where two VF-1 Valkyries were fighting and I'd instantly know they were robots, not men in armor. Same thing for most Mortar Headds and Evangelions. Now depending upon the Gundam, I might be inclined to say it was a guy in a suit (assuming I didn't know better and assuming scale was NOT immediately obvious).

It might also help to explain that I am talking about appearance only. Yes, we all know better, that these are indeed giant robots with internal components like engines, gears and machinery, not suits of armor worn by men. BUT if these supposedly giant robots don't LOOK like robots because their external appearance is just too human in form and structure, it personally hurts my suspension of disbelief. Most giant anime robots can run, duck, roll, flip, dive and move like an athlete and because of that, they can often feel too much like a human in an armored suit. To avoid that problem, the best mechanical design (at least, in my opinion) provides an obvious outward indicator that these creations are quite obviously robotic in nature. That's my feeling and I know some people don't have similar preferences, but I do.

If you showed me two mecha drawings, of relatively equal aesthetic merit, and asked me to choose, I would always favor the mecha that looks more outwardly, structurally robotic. Comparing the VF-1J head and the VF-1S head, I think the VF-1J looks more robotic, more mechanical and thus, I prefer the J even though the S is almost equally as artistically appealing. But that's just my opinion, nothing more.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But to some people it looks like a guy wearing night vision and a mouth guard, just as people claim that the yf-19 looks like a human wearing a helmet and that because it reminds them of this, it just isn't "robotic" enough. I guess it's all just opinion in the end. One of the reasosn I like the SDF-1 is because it looks nothing like a human compared to the macross 7.

I do understand what you mean, just don't get why S isn't robotic while J is. I figure because people think it looks like a face to them, but to me it's not different to the shape of a toilet bowl. There is no nose, no two eyes (like gundam), no mouth (like basara's valk) and like the destroids with guns as arms, the two sets of dual lasers are just like turret guns from star wars, retaining the look of a machine part, that serves a purpose. (like the claws on the Qrau to grip objects)

I used the Qrau as an example because to me it looks less humanoid than the VF-1 with its claw design, the head is housed inside and well protected unlike the vf-1 head, and the bulky arms are not humanoid at all, more like alien shaped. (they are too deformed to be human) Remember there are many things in nature that have "limbs" that might look like humans beside humans. My point is that VF-1 has 5 fingers with a thumb so it's hard for me to see what "robotic" really means when people say it. Like how some transformer fans say kibble but won't define the term. If we were ostriches, and we looked at the Regult, we would all be complaining that the regult just doesn't look robotic enough because it looks like us with the way the legs work and that it looks too much like it was based on us. But it just might not be that it was trying to look like us, just that the design serves a purpose: maybe the deisgner just wanted the round frame because he like submarines, or that the round shape might be proven in tests to deflect bullets better, or be harder to crush or virtually impossible to grapple when an enemy want to throw it with its hands. And the long bird-like legs were chosen so that when it comes up from out of the water it can leap up and surprise the victim, and not because he wants the robot to look like an ostrich which he might never have seen before. Taller legs might just mean it can hop above obstacles better. (like giant planets with tall grass or uneven terrain)

Edited January 14, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

So because in your opinion the Q-Rau is less human than the VF-1 that means that the VF-1S head unit cannot look more mechanical than the VF-1J? And if a robot has hands with five fingers instead of claws, that means the VF-1J head unit cannot look more mechanical than the VF-1S head unit? I'm afraid I fail to see the logic in this sequence of analogies. What I can see is the two of us going in circles. But just for clarity, I'll point out that I'm strictly speaking within the bounds of anime-style humanoid robots. Regulds and other non-humanoid designs are irrelevant to my preferences for clearly robotic humanoid mecha by virtue of being non-humanoid by default.

I do believe the Q-Rau is a poor analogy to my point because as I said, it basically is a powered suit and further, it's designed to look alien. The VF-1 Valkyrie is designed to look human, but not so human it is mistaken as such (which is why I like it). If scale was removed from the Q-Rau would it appear more robotic than human? I believe it would. Does the Q-Rau look less humanoid than the VF-1? Possibly, but I don't really care. What bearing does that analogy have on the mechanical merits of the VF-1J head unit versus the VF-1S head unit? I see absolutely none. If the VF-1 is too human looking compared to the Q-Rau, can the VF-1S head unit be faulted for looking too human? To me, such irrelevance is just that; irrelevant.

I certainly can't speak for others or what they may have to say of the YF-19 head unit. All I can say is for a humanoid mecha, the VF-1J head unit appears more robotic than the VF-1S and that's why I like it more. Removing sclae, the J appears less like a helmet than the S. All other artistic considerations being equal, I'd choose the J as my favorite. And I do

[KingNor]

I totally agree with 'KingNor'on how military aircraft and any serialized military kit in general is ultimately recycled; regardless of whether or not the original user of which died using or not. But... my original comments were for Roy's DYRL Skull 001, which was completely destroyed along with him, deterring it from being handed off to anyone. The TV series Skull 001 of course, was indeed handed off to another pilot after Roy stubbornly flew it home despite his wounds.

War is certainly hell and the general public don't tend to pay as much attention to the loss of their own troops as much as they should perhaps. Soldiers differ radically in this regard I can assure you. Soldiers...unlike the general public in some unfortunate cases, definetly notice the loss of their friends. Believe me, I've had enough of my closest friends come home in a box from Afghanistan to notice.

In the end, I was simply voting for Roy's Skull 001 as my personal choice for ultimate Valk. To each his own of course.

"My bad" - Optimus Prime (apparently)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the DYRL Skull 001. In the case of a total loss of vehicle yes, it would make total sense to "retire" the plane. The new "Skull 001" would just be the "Skull 00#" of who ever got promoted to be the new commander of skull squadron.

The SDF Skull 001 would definately been returned to service, at most with it's distinct "Roy" paint job replaced with a standart paint job. Since the plane is officially designated Skull 001 though it obviously can't be reissued a new serial number. One could argue that the SDF flight wing DID repaint Skull 001 to some standard paint job only to have Hikaru repaint it to Roys colors as a tribute.

Of course that's ret-con and totally not even hinted at in the story, Skull 001 stayed the way it looked because it was a cool looking plane.

Anyway I agree with you and appologize for misreading your post.

[VF-7000 THUNDERHAWK]

I admit, I love the VF-1J head unit the most of the VF-1 variants, but the VF-1S is also a really good design. I think the one aspect of the VF-1S head unit design I don't like is the fact that it's just a bit too simple. It looks just a bit too much like a helmet rather than a head. That's not inherently bad but, as I've mentioned before when stating my preference for explicitly mechanical looking designs as opposed to more "humanoid" creations, I like the more mechanical look of the VF-1J head unit.

The head units on the VF-1J/S have very unique designs (even though there designed for junior and senior officers).

For me I prefer the VF-1S head unit, it looks sleek and aerodynamic and it lets other VF pilots know who you are and that your a Veteran pilot with many years of service.