Just saw Macross Zero for the first time.

[mriboy]

Man I'am so glad I found this site and found out all these diffrent Macross movies. Watched Macross Plus the 4 series set and enjoyed it. my Macross T.V. set got here last night to so going to start watching them.

[Heron]

Well with all the ties Macross F has to Macross 0 (Sheryl Nome, Nome matching Sara Nome, Priestess of Mayan Island. Same symbols on rocks and such in Macross 0 match or are very similar to what we see on the "alien" attackers in Macross F and the events of Macross 0 where kept secret for at least 50 years, which is exactly when Macross F begins: 2059, 50 years after Macross 0 ) maybe will get some closure for Sara, Shin and what the frak we saw go down in Macross 0.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

We chose Macross because it was realistic and serious.

It can still be serious and realistic with magic though. For example the antigravity the humans use to lift the ships may relate to how the mayan priestess could self-levitate the rocks and fly around on them. Their powers might be just as 'real' as nostrodamus predictions, haunted houses, or the possibility of aliens with more knowledgeable scientists than our own who lived in a much older civilisation and had access to superior tech living somewhere in the universe who left clues on earth through ancient ruins and vanished and then left the planet before us.

What's understood naturally by sophisticated races could be seen as magic by more "uncivilised" races. So a torch and a candle might be a more primitive way to see in the dark, because fire is common, but if you use a lightbulb and that person has never seen something like it before, they will think you had some magic power.

some examples:

-The natural version of Folding might be teleportation (a super power in many comic books)

-using head lasers to shoot down missiles, might be poorer version of using tentacles. (entangles groups of them rather than shooting each one by one)

-antigravity abilities are replaced by levitation using the mind (flying characters in comic books like superman)

-communication using your mouth might be replaced by probing of someone's mind psychically to read their feelings (jedi mind tricks in star wars, newtypes feeling pain of their slain enemies in gundam)

-eating food could be replaced by absorbing energy through the skin like a solar panel (an organic-looking robot which looks like a real lizard but inside it's a sophisticated environmentally-friendly mecha) etc

I don't see how having magic = not serious. It just seems more "mythical/untrue/psuedo-scientific" because it's just seen from the point of view of humans who are a young race compared to other aliens where stuff that is written about that sounds impossible for us may be a reality to them. So an alien race of cat people that can see well in the dark might be more sensitive to some moving objects at night or hear things we can't because of the way we humans are physically wired in our brains or limited hearing and sense of smell for example. Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it must be actual magic.

You could say that for example in macross F, the insect creature has a portable version of a grand cannon or a macross cannon in its body which requires very little energy to power compared to ours, so it appears like magic. Just as tiny computers could seem magical to people a century ago because of how small and how little power they consume. (computers once needed a whole room of space) The protoculture then, could just have miniturised versions of what we possess (using nature) and also be more power efficient, (guzzling less energy so smaller creatures can use them) which to us lower life forms, it must look 'magical' because we never knew it could be possible. (so much so that the levitiation and warping and communication is really just performed biologically and organically, rather than artificially which relies on machines that need oil to run or parts to physically make by hand or from polluting factories)

Even though the religious priestesses (like the jedi knights with a high 'midicloron' count) are anti tech, (jedi knights don't like blasters) they could have their own version of things which are just more natural/better but don't which don't rely so much on other people to fix. (ie a self repairing organic robot that heals itself naturally vs a mecha that requires maintenance by a crew of people who will oil and grease and replace broken parts)

And I don't think midicloren counts are mentioned anywhere in the original trilogy but something that was added later. (prequel trilogy movies were not made at the same time as origial trilogy ones) So it falls into the category of "tacking extra stuff on" that doesn't belong. Now if star wars can get away with it, how come macross can't? (by fleshing out the world with the "magic powers" theme and linking it to "genetic manipulation of humans" talked about in SDF:Macross?) The ancient legends of bird humans (people that could levitate/fly) is just macross' version of star wars "clone wars" where you might have heard mention of some event that happened in early times and it gets explained in more details. So just like how humans were inspired to attempt to fly by seeing birds do it, the PC could have been inspired to 'teleport' (fold) by studying a bunch of teleporting frogs from some remote planet before they could duplicate it artificially for themselves with technology, similar to how we can make artificial hearts that pump blood which replace the real ones, or learn to walk by watching adults as a child and copying it.

Humans are essentially the more savage version of the PC in the same way that a person using a bow and arrow to shoot and knives to cut you close range is a more savage version of a soldier with a gun to shoot and sidearm to defend upclose. The tech is just different but from the point of view of those who don't understand how it works or can't produce it in factories, its voodoo. A rocket going into space could be seen as a magic tower with wings. A flying plane might be seen as a featherless bird with magic firey powers. (bombs) Robots are magic horned demon giants that fire lightning from their eyes. (head laser) They might use different terminology using a description that is primitive. A sound weapon could be used by a race of alien to heal (relaxes the target) or harm (makes dogs howl due to their sensitive hearing) something. Its song causing earthquakes or shattering objects. Maybe it will take the form of a wind god or a earth god to some primitive civilisation that doesn't understand it, but there is some natural explanation which is recreatable with further study. Whatever energy it was could be feeded to some alien organism which either is harmed or healed by it. The sound could also be a switch to turn on a voice-activated mechanism of some sort that reacts to the energy. To the alien designed to respond it wouldn't be magic, but a switch in their brain that gets them to react in a certain way. (like how a snake will sense vibrations on the ground and interpret them based on how violent it was and this triggers an emotion like fear)

Edited January 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[jenius]

It's not about weird or "realism" it's that SDF:M and DYRL established certain rules for the Macross Universe and then the sequels subsequently introduced a whole new element that wasn't even hinted at in the original shows. Minmei's song had a very explicit reason for being effective and suddenly it became the precursor to some sort of psychic energy attack.

It would be like if we suddenly found out that Jedi's *really* got their powers from a blood infection or something.... damn it.

That sums up my thoughts exactly for both Mac and Star Wars.

It can still be serious and realistic with magic though.

No, once it appears to fantastic it goes from technologically dismissed to fantasy. Anti gravity is completely unexplained but it has a scientific name and the viewer knows their are big machines making it happen (we see them tear through the hull of the SDF-1). Flying rocks have no machines inside them, that's magic.

What's understood naturally by sophisticated races could be seen as magic by more "uncivilised" races.

True, and that's precisely the retcon we see happening now in the Macross series. We did see a little bit of this in the original series from the Zentraedi perspective. The problem there was the viewer had the angle of the civilized civilization. The retcon now is splashing a bunch of magic in our faces so that later (probably at the end of Mac F) we can be shown that we were simply the uncivilized civilization all along (both humans in the show and the viewer in general). The problem is that the audience went from enjoying the show for its lack of magic to now being inundated with what appears to be magic. You can't blame someone who loved Macross for not liking MacZero because of its magical elements either. MacZero does nothing to solve the problem, it leaves everything dangling as magical quirkiness (hopefully to be resolved years later by MacF). C'mon, Mao appearing to Shin wasn't way over the top? At least Mac7 did a little to give substance to its magic (although I'd argue it failed miserably).

[VFTF1]

I didn't interpret anything in what happened in Macross Zero as magic...

Sound Energy is a scientifically established "fact" in the Macross universe - just like anti-gravity... and just like anti-gravity has "machines producing it" - Sound Energy also uses machines - recall that Sound Force wore special back-packs that harnessed and focussed their sound energy into sound-beams.

However -the protodevilon were capable of generating Sound-Energy without machines - because apparently the structure of organisms is such that it too can be made atune to Sound-Energy via will....

I don't see it as magic - the religious aspects in M Zero are there because people can't explain certain things without reference to higher powers - but these references are of course purely symbolic - in reality - what we are dealing with is the power of song as a life-generating and life-sustaining agent - and not just any song - but songs of love...not the Song of Destruction...

I agree with the assesment that certain advanced technologies seem 'magical' to those who are incapable of explaining them - and this is where religious symbolism arises as a means of making certain phenomena remotely comprehensible....

As to the ending in Macross: Zero....

Well..

I think it's very beautiful - and I would only remind everyone that realism does not mean sterile clinicalism... artistic license has always been a part of the Macross universe...

In fact - it's not the "realism" that makes Macross special - it's the blending of elements; just like the blending of personalities and situations and complexity - that makes Macross better than the rest.

VFTF1

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I didn't interpret anything in what happened in Macross Zero as magic...

purely symbolic

Ok then explain how sara could sing and the flowers could grow fast right in front of shin's eyes?

Or how Sara could generate that protective ball using her mind?

Or how they didn't die when the floating rocks they were "flying on" (I think it was just sara levitating them using telekinetic powers which are supernatural) were destroyed mid air?

What about the telepathic messaging mao used to project an image of herself? (who needs a cell phone when you got that?)

The mayan priestesses are like the jedi, where although it might seem magical to humans (who are a younger race than the PC in years) there may be a "type of science" yet to be labelled for humans to later discover and create rules and formulas for. (just as ancient people had alchemy before chemistry. And the alchemist was a "magician" to the ordinary folk. Or how people who are seen "reading" a book, might look like they are possessed by the devil in a trance to someone who has never heard of books or understood the individual characters that make up written words which then become meaningful information for the brain, before. In many role playing games for example "nature" itself, is the source of magic: with the elements of fire, water, wind, earth etc being the basis for conjuring spells because nature is 'alive'. So there are terms for it, but because it doesn't exist to those in the real world who don't practice it, don't believe in voodoo curses, or superstitions it becomes fantasy. (just not fantasy to those who know it works for them)

For example a martial artist who has trained for years in a discipline that allows him to use his conditioned body to break things (like concrete block with their heads) might seem like "people using magic powers" to those who witness it, but it's explainable in *scientific terms. Those who don't know any better just might not have had the chance to create the terms needed for them to make logical sense of it just yet because it's "new" to them, and not new to those doing it and proving it can work consistantly enough to be able to train others in it and pass it on in secret.

The humans therefore are like that in macoss: most of the people don't have the power, don't believe it exists, don't understand and can't explain it in scientific terms so they make no attempt to just accept it at face value. (just like the existence of 5 million alien ships in misa's report to the global military leaders in SDF:M, who were naturally skeptical about the claims due to the loss of her camera which would have been solid evidence to back it up - people tend to believe their eyes more) ....but ....my question is... why is that more acceptable in star wars (not really science fiction to be honest) and gundam (even though the idea of space colonies is a real possibility) but not macross? (has realistic planes, contains antigravity, shows pilots doing things that would kill them in real life) Star Wars had the "Force" in the original trilogy, but macross had the existence of a "older race". Why couldn't this older race just have been a bunch of beings who were shamans, expert witch doctors, or some kinda never-before-seen alien wizard with jedi like mind powers? Couldn't they have just been like a martial artist who had trained for years how to use their brains to grow plants quickly, (saras singing) lift objects (the earth quakes in role playing games could be interpreted as "casting an earthquake spell by talking to the god of the earth or some rock spirit") create a magic barrier (force field seen in macross zero), or talk using an ancient version of the cell phone? (mental telepathy?) Why can't aliens have contact with ghosts/the dead from another world helping them to manipulate nature from behind the scenes just as magic worms in your body is a "scientific" explanation for why jedi have these powers in the star wars universe, or how the lack of gravity in space is the "scientific" explanation for why newtypes have more sensitivity that allows them to be better than oldtypes in spatiat awareness because their brain can evolve faster in that environment?

*there was actually an attempt at this a while ago in a national geographic documentary (Fight Science! see below for wiki and see if you can find a torrent of it to watch it for yourself ) using crash test dummies and sensors to measure (therefore prove) the power of a strike (so a cynic can't say it's a mere hollywood effect) and the effect it would have on the object using math/physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Science

Edited January 13, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[VFTF1]

1/1 Low Viz Lurk: Ok then explain how sara could sing and the flowers could grow fast right in front of shin's eyes?

VFTF1: In the same way as Bassara could sing and bring an entire pyramid out of the water. Song Energy has enormous power.

Or how Sara could generate that protective ball using her mind?

VFTF1: In the same way as Sivil could generate a protective ball and take Bassara on a voyage across the galaxy.

1/1: Or how they didn't die when the floating rocks they were "flying on" (I think it was just sara levitating them using telekinetic powers which are supernatural) were destroyed mid air?

VFTF1: Because they were shielded by the protective ball you mentioned in your last question.

1/1: What about the telepathic messaging mao used to project an image of herself? (who needs a cell phone when you got that?)

VFTF1: All of this happens because of the heightened emotions of love and hope that Mao feels because she is in love with Shin. Her positive emotions serve to awaken the power of the Birdman's head, and the Birdman's head in turn makes these thing possible. The more love and hope it detects, the more it uses its' powers to help those who open themselves to it, the more hate and evil it detects, the more it seems to resort to the Final Solution of exterminating humanity - the "failed experiment."

VFTF1

[Kelsain]

I'm in the camp that looks at the "magic" of M0 under the umbrella of Robert L Forward: Any sufficiently advanced technology will appear indistinguishable from magic.

As VFTF1 has most recently stated, song energy/spiritia is now an established fact in the Macrossverse. It was being used by the PC tens to hundreds of thousands of years ago. It simply wasn't unraveled by UNS scientists in the first 50 years of the established timeline - had Aries not been killed, it might have shown up sooner in UNS technology. We see in M7 that song energy has the capacity to heal, to make plants move, and communicate across vast distances. (I think it was even present in M+, when Myung somehow snaps Isamu out of hypnosis before he crashes in Macross City.) I believe that through the use of spiritia, Sara and Mao were able to communicate with Shin, make flowers bloom, and encourage the growth of insects. I think that through their pure PC bloodline, along with the training they likely received from birth attuned them to harness the power of spiritia.

As for the floating rocks, and the absence of machinery to interpret the use of spiritia; who's to say that the technology isn't there? Those rocks may well have been fragments of preexisting machines. Really, it comes together when you consider that Mayan may very well be the actual equivalent of the Altlita protoculture city from DYRL.

Think about it: according to legend, the birdman dropped a turtle shell for Roy Kaanu to live on, but the shell broke and formed Mayan and the surrounding islands. In the shallow waters around the main island, Mao takes shin down amond some interesting tower-like formations, and shows him the head of the birdman, which is obviously plugged in to something and being powered. On the island itself, the topography consists of many tightly packed tower-like mountains, criscrossed by deep chasms and caves. I'd be hardpressed to think of a natural process by which these formations would come about. Also, somehow the islanders were able to evacuate their village quickly into a high mountain to watch the events of the first UN/AUN battle over the island. Thus, I'm of the opinion that the entire island was a protoculture city, that has existed for over 10,000 years. It has deteriorated, eroded and been claimed by forests and reefs, but still retains some of its original functionality. As a result, the equivalent of the sound energy collectors (remember, those were actually located on Battle7) still function somewhere under the city, perhaps as part of the birdman's maintenance systems.

This begins to explain the supernatural abilities of the Nome sisters, and the flashy effects are exactly what we saw in M7 - visual representations of spiritia at work. When you consider the background information and read between the lines of dialog (particularly Sara's) there's a lot of information about the protoculture in M0.

Now as for the ending of episode 5 where Shin's VF-0 folds out among spectral feathers, I'm still thrown by that one...

Edited January 13, 2008 by Kelsain

[jenius]

As VFTF1 has most recently stated, song energy/spiritia is now an established fact in the Macrossverse.

Yes but when? Certainly not in the original Macross or DYRL.

We see in M7 that song energy has the capacity to heal, to make plants move, and communicate across vast distances. (I think it was even present in M+, when Myung somehow snaps Isamu out of hypnosis before he crashes in Macross City.) I believe that through the use of spiritia, Sara and Mao were able to communicate with Shin, make flowers bloom, and encourage the growth of insects. I think that through their pure PC bloodline, along with the training they likely received from birth attuned them to harness the power of spiritia

Exactly my point... the Macross universe currently has a completely crappy version of Magic being explained by "spiritia" (in Mac7, they don't even bother attempting an excuse in MacZero). I believe that, through the use of spiritia, any possible thing beneficial to pushing a plot forward can magically be accomplished... WHOA, look at that, it works! Rocks fly to help the protagonist escape, people can communicate telepathically at just the right moment, and naked chicks can levitate and grow flowers when the plot needs a twist. It's like the epitome of the laziest writing ever and it has almost ZERO connection to the original series. Mac7 at least makes a (crappy) attempt of providing some sort of scientific basis for "sound energy" but just when the viewer is about to have to puke from having digested that crock MacZero comes along and steps it up to an even more ridiculous level (and the whole time I watched Firebomber dance their way out of a conflict I never would have imagined things were about to get more ridiculous). The Star Wars reference is valid because in the very first Star Wars movie we were given The Force and told it was the shiz so we accept it every time we encounter it hence forth. There ain't crap in the original Macross that has me ready to accept floating rocks, floating chicks, or the ability to sing to flowers and make them brow.

Your theory about Mayan being ruins of a protoculture city is cool and all but aren't you just really filling in giant holes the writers of MacZero couldn't be bothered with? "Um, you think we should explain what any of this means?" "No, if we explain things now it makes retcon harder later."

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

There ain't crap in the original Macross that has me ready to accept floating rocks, floating chicks, or the ability to sing to flowers and make them brow.

But gundam never explained the newtype power. It just exists like psychic powers and only certain people have it. Not once do they go into any detail in gundam how amuro's own brain is able to know stuff. We have to accept it.

The PC could have evolved to be so much more advanced than us that it seems like magic but isn't. It's just that scienctists from the human point of view haven't create the terms needed to explain it so you never see our scientists explaining it the way you see the jedi explaining the force.

If SDF: macross had shown actual flashback of the pc, maybe they could copy what george lucas did (with retcon of star wars by introducing midichrlons) we might be able to see the "magic" explained from their point of view. But in the macross world we always see the events from our point of view which is from our scientists who are limited in knowledge and can't explain how everything works because they are still reverse engineering it all.

Why is it so easy to accept anti-gravity and not floating rocks? Because you see a machine doing it? That would be like me saying birds shouldn't be able to fly or glide because they have no engine. You know what I mean? Part of the reason for why we can get machines to fly is to do with generating the lift and with science (just create a paper plane) we can prove this. But we are dealing with "alien science" (overtechnology) so we shouldn't expect aries to know how the pinpoint barrier works or why the psychic can communicate with others because they don't know either.

It's unfair to expect it, just like it would be unfair to expect spiderman's peter parker to be able to explain his super powers, (which he has no idea how it works even though he has a bit of knowledge of science) or spawn's magic chains or whatever. Liking it? I can see how a fan can not LIKE it, just like how some people don't LIKE the use of "midichlorens" to explain the mystery of the force. But to not accept it (ie the magic of PC 'mind power') on the basis that PC were not advanced enough of an alien race for thier high scienctists to understand it themselves, (even though they are more evolved than us just like how the newtypes are more evolved than oldtypes in gundam) is the part I don't understand. It's like you are picking on macross but not picking on gundam or starwars which are also both sci-fi. Macross can have both hard sci-fi and stuff that isn't explainable and still be ok with me. If I can accept telekineses, (one form of "human generated" anti-gravity? M.Bison/Vega from street fighter II is an example: using his psychic power to an object just like sara can lift rocks: the object being himself to look like he "flies") telepathy, (american comic books have this: charles xavier from x-men) force fields, shrinking someone's consciousness into another clone body, (sdf:M) transforming robots, ..then I don't see how an ancient atlantean race with older knowledge than our own scientists have, who used this knowledge to create beings with demonic powers from another dimension... can be so hard to swallow to be honest. (not anymore than the ghosts in ghostbusters or the alien ghosts in Final Fantasy: The spirits within) For me "folding" is like the magic "teleportation" you see in dragon ball z.

Remember one thing: in the very beginning of SDF:M the anti-gravity engines broke out from the sdf-1 and humans couldn't get them to work properly. It might be due to damage, but part of it is due to being of an alien science which we don't quite understand ourselves yet. (otherwise we would have to have used conventional tech to get off earth) So long as macross is told from the point of view of humans we will always be years behind whatever new enemy race will be thrown at us. It would be pretty boring (no danger) if humans were already the most advanced out there. The element of danger seen in mospeada (bunch of bugs still being better than robots) SDF: macross (giants that are stronger and more numerous than us) and gundam (the zeon have developed mobile suits and like the nazi with tanks and jet fighter, going to use this to conquer others with it unless the good guys copy it and invent a better one with better weapons) ... are examples of why they are interesting. If we knew everything and the science was already obvious to the scientists trying to create advanced weapons from it, there would be no story to tell.

Edited January 14, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[jenius]

But gundam never explained the newtype power. It just exists like psychic powers and only certain people have it. Not once do they go into any detail in gundam how amuro's own brain is able to know stuff. We have to accept it.

I've never watched a single episode of Gundam.

Why is it so easy to accept anti-gravity and not floating rocks? Because you see a machine doing it? That would be like me saying birds shouldn't be able to fly or glide because they have no engine. You know what I mean?

Um, birds have wings they move to fly. I think it's perfectly logical to accept anything flying that has a means of flying, even if said means are explained away by scientific babble like antigravity would be. A rock, on the other hand, has no means in any way of elevating from the ground. Therefore, if it were to elevate there would need to be an unseen force acting against it (ie. magic). To then require a girl singing to said rock or otherwise controlling it... No, the writers got too lazy to even attempt to explain any of this. If they were going for a mystical feel (as it seems they were) then the audience has gone from the non-mystical original series to a mystical sequel... that will irritate some, as evidenced here. Again, there's NOTHING EVER AT ANY TIME in the original series that sets us up for this kind of hocus pocus. We're going from a series that strived to have a bit of a realistic feel (difficult when dealing with transforming jets, giants, etc) to one that mocks itself by embracing magic (or, if it makes you feel better, a technology the series has thusfar been entirely unable to describe).

Remember one thing: in the very beginning of SDF:M the anti-gravity engines broke out from the sdf-1 and humans couldn't get them to work properly. It might be due to damage, but part of it is due to being of an alien science which we don't quite understand ourselves yet. (otherwise we would have to have used conventional tech to get off earth)

Also remember that that scene was not followed by Minmay singing to the SDF-1 and thus lifting it off the ground and pushing it into space. The problem was solved by using thrusters. Again, a precedent was set that was later abolished. You accept all the freaks in Xmen because they've been there since the beginning and backstories are given to them. It's the same in pretty much every show you've hinted at. It's not the same in Macross. It's non-sensical to argue Macross must go this route to stay interesting. It's establisehd logically in the first series and movie that there was a MUCH more advanced civilization out there and that all humans can do is reverse engineer from this Easter egg they've received. That provides a huge variety of avenues for the story to go in. You don't NEED to have telepathy, happy music rays, telekinesis, or any other form of magic to keep it fresh.

Edited January 14, 2008 by jenius

[mike_s_6]

Macross Zero was cool for 3 things:

#1: Fokker

#2: Pre-invasion war

#3: Kick ass pre-invasion mechs

The story was lame which unfortunetly is becoming a trend

I didn't find the story lame, although I do go with the group that says I'd like as little magic as possible. But that's a personal choice.

Another personal observation - I wish the theme didn't have a screeching soprano. Over-all, I thought that it was a good animation

[Kelsain]

Yes but when? Certainly not in the original Macross or DYRL.

I will grant you that. Spiritia was not in the original deck of cards that Kawamori dealt us in SDFM. But somewhere in the 90's he decided to add it to his fictional universe; as the overall creator, that's his right. Now there's nothing directly contradicting it in the original series either, so it's inclusion in later plot elements is ok. You may not like it, it may not fit your definition of Macross. Hey, that's your prerogative. All fiction, especially scifi, requires a suspension of disbelief; we all have individual tolerances for this. For you, it seems spiritia and the way it's been presented in Macross since M7 has gone too far. As the consumer of a creative work, it's fine to say "I don't like where the story's going."

As a personal example: I loved the original Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, then I thought Speaker for the Dead was pretty interesting, but by the time I got through Xenocide, I hated where things were headed. I tried to read the 4th book, but just didn't care anymore. But I'll still reread the first one. Similarly, many cried foul when Lucas brought in the midichlorians in Episode I and it "ruined their childhood." Yeah, he retconned it. Did it contradict the originals? Not explicitly. Could it have been handled better? Oh yeah!

So Kawamori gave us spiritia. Could it have been explained better and represented better? Definitely. I think that M0 could have been an excellent canvas to show us more about this aspect of the PC in a more realistic setting than M7. But it could have been handled better, yes. I'd love for a lot of anime to give a more direct explanation of events; but it rarely seems to be the case. So I've learned to infer a lot when watching anime to fill in those blanks. Doing so, I see a lot of info in Sara's dialog that, though it may not definitively ANSWER many questions about M0, it shows that the writers did put some thought into it. Other people may interpret these things differently, and that's fine because that's what makes the story work for them, and then we can discuss it here.

Macross is ultimately Kawamori's baby, and he has the right to take it in any direction he wants. As the viewer, you have the right to say "I love how it started, but this is crap." Like the Matrix

I didn't know how to take it the first time I saw M0. I had only seen SDFM, DYRL, & M+ at that point, so it came out of left field. After watching M7, it made more sense. I'm OK with spiritia, but I'd like to see it better handled. It's a safe bet that it will come into play in Frontier; so we'll see what they do with it then.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It's non-sensical to argue Macross must go this route to stay interesting.

Oh by no means do I want it to go down that route, just pointing out that it would be possible to meld some fantasy with sci-fi and still make it good. It's just that as I mentioned, humans can't possibly know everything there is to know out there. Why couldn't the aliens have a god of their own, their own versions of ghosts, their own versions of love songs, their own versions of demons, their own versions of communication (not using your physical mouth to speak), their own versions of picking things up (having hands replaced by tentacles), way of reporducing (not engaging in sex to procreate etc) method of walking (they use telekinesis to lift themselves), way of thinking. (war is life)

A bird must fly to get from a to b, whereas a snake slithers, and a human walks. Aliens should be no different: we are bound to come across what appear to be "supernatural tech" and "supernatural biological beings" the same way we might run into humanoid aliens (giants from SDF:M). This is a science fiction show with people going to different planets, seeing funny looking alien lifeforms, and discovering new things that become new breakthroughs in science due to all the diverse things out there. You can't just limit it to advances in robotics. It's just not realistic. But I do see those who are fans of macross "only as a mecha show", being annoyed at the change in focus from robot technology towards more spiritual/mystical technology. I just think of the mayan priestesses as scientists who kept their "science" secret and very well hidden in the same way the transforming VF-1 was a government secret until the arrival of the zentradi. Just a different science with its own rules.

Even though it is a mecha show, I don't want it to just be limited to humanoid robot mechanics. Why can't it have *biomechanical things out there, and ghosts, and strange creatures that float in the same way we have funny looking creatures in the ocean, ones that can fly by using the wind, and animals that slither? Why can't any aliens also have a communication system similar to mobile phones but with their bio-engineered brains which the PC genetically created in some lab and then mass grew in a farm as a way to communicate at long range? Why does it have to resemble a walkie talkie, or a radar dish or some wire? If they have no need for these machines why on earth would they want to build them like we would. That would be like building fins for humans to aid in swimming when we have boats!

So even though I understand (and prefer) that there wasn't "magic", I'm willing to have an open mind about stuff like levitation, mind powers, the ability to hack into computer using your brain which is designed to interface with a computer (ghost in the shell) because of the theme of the macross story: that an ancient highly evolved race built all this stuff and actually DID understand it and was able to train each other how to use it. Just as luke learns how to use the force in star wars. It doesn't have to be the focus of the wars that take place (after all even jedi are limited physically and can die) but if it was there in the background I would have no problems.

Think of humans as being like the snake which must slither on the ground to get from point to point. The PC are the bird. We just don't "see" things from their perspective and don't understand why a pair of wings would be necessary because using machines we can do those things artificially.

A fish can swim, but we can ride in a boat.

A bird can fly, but we can build planes to fly.

A space whale can survive in space, but we can build spaceships and space suits.

A dolphin can dive in the ocean, but we use a sub to move underneath water.

from the animal's/aliens point of view:

-"humans can build boats to sail, but we fish don't need it since we can swim"

-"humans can make planes to fly, but we birds already had wings long before they could fly"

-"humans use containers which create explosions to push them around in space, but I was able to move in space naturally so I don't understand why that is necessary."

-"humans build subs to sneak underwater, but we dolphins just naturally swim there and use sonar to talk"

So while the aliens might seem strange and it might not be suitable for a "mecha" show with robots in it from the point of view of a human who is a "tool builder", this is the universe we are exploring. The PC had years to develop natural versions of the mechanical devices we use and to them we are the primitive ones because they've evolved more than us. If they wanted to fight a war they wouldn't fight one themselves, just build giant fighters in place of themselves. Similarly humans would build robot drones. (remote control planes with weapons on them)

But the PC may have just preferred biological versions of the "drone robot": ie the zentradi giants because they like nature.

So using this logic why can't it be possible they have biological versions of everything we have as machine? A cellphone brain? a space ship that flies by itself? antigravity that is produced by mind? Machines that absorb energy from the environment rather than need us pouring fuel into them? You see what I mean? This is a race that had thouasand of years to perfect their science so it seems "like magic" to those who still think in terms of using "tools" to do those things where it requires manual labor. Just as modern day cars might seem silly to those who can teleport because they have a portable fold device which has been miniturised to the size of a cellphone. (ie the way computers have miniturised to fit in your pocket thanks to rapid advances)

A fish doesn't need a boat to move across water, (to be interesting) -nature gave it that ability

A human doesn't need two legs to move on the ground (to be interesting) -we just learned to use them after birth

An evolved alien specialising in genetics doesn't need to build giants to fight wars when they could have built robots (to be interesting) - they just went down that path instead of using mecha controlled by a prgrammed AI

I'm just saying that it wouldn't be *uninteresting* if aliens also had methods of solving problems biologically and/or using the mind, just as martial artists used their bodies and skill as a weapon when they could have used guns or bombs. Technology isn't going to be the same from race to race, just as the type of weapons invented are going to differ depending on the environment and history of that race. (ie close range combat for animals/bugs, bullets fired from a tube for modern day soldiers, developed by wizards/scientists who had knowledge of the mysterious powder needed to produce the explosion needed to simplify combat. (and be more energy efficient to the attacker so he can kill better and more things)

As a fan of mecha, I don't necessarily want to see macross 7 style combat, just that I'm also not closed to the possibility of a show that can combine some of the "magic" and mecha without making it "crap". (Regardless of whether we saw magic in SDF:M - star wars has fighters dogfighting, gun fights, sword fights, and magic "force" fights. Just as we have car chases, martial arts, gun fights, and supernatural themes (with themes of ghosts, ancient curses, religious artifacts, hidden ruins) in an Indiana Jones, or Star Gate or "The Mummy"-type adventure movies and still *enjoy* them.)

*technically mospeada gets away with it by making the leader a spirit that uses alien magic to evolve its bugs. It's never explained how it works. Oh, so it gets off easy but macross mustn't? This is magic in a mecha show. The alien didn't need a machine. Is macross zero any more guilty than mospeada for introducing the mayan priestesses?

Edited January 14, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[jenius]

A bird must fly to get from a to b, whereas a snake slithers, and a human walks. Aliens should be no different: we are bound to come across what appear to be "supernatural tech" and "supernatural biological beings" the same way we might run into humanoid aliens (giants from SDF:M).

I think more what I'm arguing against is the fact that Macross has been doing such a horrible job of de-magic-fying things. I'm okay if something shows up on screen that seems magical only to be explained three episodes later as scientific. That's fine, it keeps the audience on their toes. What we're seeing in Macross though isn't that. We're seeing really random stuff and never offered the slightest hint as to how it's happening. There's also a lot of subjectivity here too. I was okay with the AFOS lifting all the ships out of the water and dealing out all sorts of death and destruction because it's an alien craft with alien technologies. I was not okay with Mao appearing to Shin in a vision and communicating with him that way. Mao may have had a rare blood type or whatever but, as a viewer, I have a hard time swallowing that her and Sarah are magic-wielders and that's okay because a gabillion years ago the Proto-Culture swung by and played with some island residents. I also hated Mao's blood being a match with the AFOS' but that's probably just a personal qualm.

Why can't it have *biomechanical things out there, and ghosts, and strange creatures that float in the same way we have funny looking creatures in the ocean, ones that can fly by using the wind, and animals that slither?

It can have lots of stuff in it but it can't take existing de-mystified stuff, like a rock, and mystify it and then fail to write in a reason for having done so. A lot of the stuff you're talking about is fine but why have it in a show called Macross? The original Macross didn't have a bunch of crazy mystic crap in it so if you want to make a sci fi mystical show shouldn't you just start with something new rather than adapting something existing? There was lots of dialogue in the original series but we never heard the Zents talking about anything scarier than miclones. That's not to say the stuff isn't out there it's just to say that the original series did nothing to associate itself with all these half-baked "sequels" it has sprung (although obvioulsy plenty of contextual/chronological ties exist).

*technically mospeada gets away with it by making the leader a spirit that uses alien magic to evolve its bugs. It's never explained how it works. Oh, so it gets off easy but macross mustn't? This is magic in a mecha show. The alien didn't need a machine. Is macross zero any more guilty than mospeada for introducing the mayan priestesses?

YES, Macross mustn't because it doesn't introduce any of these elements. I like my sequels to expand upon the existing... not reinvent it. The other big difference is the Mayan are humans who we're supposed to be okay with having alien abilities after eons of breeding and kickin' it on Earth. What in Macross prepares me for superhumans on Earth pre SW1? Nothing. On the same token, if a prequel to Mospeada showed a human doing what Sara or Mao do it still would seem completely inappropriate. It's the aliens that are capable of crazy stuff, not humans.

Edited January 14, 2008 by jenius

[Keith]

I don't think Zero was ever meant to stand alone. All hints we have right now point to it being a prelude to F. If that's true, then all should be explained.

[mike_s_6]

I don't think Zero was ever meant to stand alone. All hints we have right now point to it being a prelude to F. If that's true, then all should be explained.

I bet it's not a coincidence Sheryl has that surname - it's more impossible that Kawamori couldn't think of any other surname and chose that one just for fun.

[SpacyAce2012]

I think more what I'm arguing against is the fact that Macross has been doing such a horrible job of de-magic-fying things. I'm okay if something shows up on screen that seems magical only to be explained three episodes later as scientific. That's fine, it keeps the audience on their toes. What we're seeing in Macross though isn't that. We're seeing really random stuff and never offered the slightest hint as to how it's happening. There's also a lot of subjectivity here too. I was okay with the AFOS lifting all the ships out of the water and dealing out all sorts of death and destruction because it's an alien craft with alien technologies. I was not okay with Mao appearing to Shin in a vision and communicating with him that way. Mao may have had a rare blood type or whatever but, as a viewer, I have a hard time swallowing that her and Sarah are magic-wielders and that's okay because a gabillion years ago the Proto-Culture swung by and played with some island residents. I also hated Mao's blood being a match with the AFOS' but that's probably just a personal qualm.

What is shown in Macross Zero isn't "magic", which is a word that gets bandied about in reference to that show. More like telekinesis, telepathy, and strong paranormal empathy. There have been shows similar to Macross that added, or further elaborated later in the same fashion as Kawamori, paranormal elements in the storyline.

Just because mystical elements in society embrace the paranormal in their occult disciplines, doesn't make it "magic" in the same sense as seen in the fantasy genre.

While I agree that Kawamori has gone a little too far in the "New Age" direction with the franchise, it hasn't taken away from the overall theme of the Macross saga, set by the original series. Which is the end of Man's isolation in the universe, and his forced venture into a vast and dangerous unknown for the sake of survival.

Macross isn't just a military-oriented war story. Or a romance show featuring the ever-tiresome "love triangles". Or simply a cartoon about giant robots, piloted by angsty teen-agers, kicking alien ass.

It's far more than that, which has been the secret to it's long-term success. And there is room to explore other things.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

What in Macross prepares me for superhumans on Earth pre SW1?

You could say the giants themselves were superhumans because britai was able to survive in space without a spacesuit. They didn't just tack on his ability in later shows. He really is more powerful than the zentradi grunts who after britai fell to the ground in the battroid fight against hikaru and asked him if he was ok, mentioned "I was not built as fragile as you" so the PC may have found a way to clone all these superhuman guys and base their entire reasearch on cloning and then later on trying to meld technology with organic creatures who were "self sufficient". (like how the fish doesn't need scuba suit to survive in water, or a bird doesn't need a plane to fly)

*what I mean is if they can survive in hostile environments for a short time they won't need the suit like a weaker creature would. So this leaves open the possibility of the PC taking some alien creature's ability to survive in space (like the space whale) and through genetics, making a mutant creature which can also survive in that environment for a short time. So just as dolphins are not fish, (and need to come out of the water at some point for air) they could make humans with "super" abilities like resistance to diseases, bioweapons, hostile environments etc, while giving them things like the ability to heal fast, or dense bones that allows them to crush a Valkyrie with their bare hands and use their own strength to rip the chest plate off without the use of a tool like a crowbar. ie the creature is independant of tools/tech. They *become* the weapon itself in the same way the xenomophs in the "Aliens" movies are self sufficient weapons without need for repair or maintenance crews or needing oil to run. They are just "natural" weapons.

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If you've seen the movie Akira a similar thing is happening and the government is interested in certain people they could use to study ESP, Telekinesis, and then possibly make their own psychic soldiers (think M.Bison from "street fighter II" with his Psycho Powers) or if possible a living "god". In the movie the experiment backfires and the psychic power goes out of control causing a atomic bomb-like effect killing many people. So at the end a similar thing happens but he dies and goes to heaven where he belongs because he is too dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_%28manga%29

If macross just presented it in a more obvious way (have an episode explaining who the mayan islanders were and why the government wants to study them) in the same way of akira or the "newtype" in gundam then I think people who like to have explanations will be happy. Nobody ever doubts the "jedi force power" in star wars because from the point of view of a jedi it's not "magic" but a discipline with rules that work for them. But in macross the average guy can't float, make plants grow fast, move objects with their minds, so it is just "magic" to them. (if the x-men were real and you were just a normal human without the mutant power, you would think they were "magic" powers wouldn't you? Even though there is a distinction made within x-men between "magic" and mutant powers. ie Juggernaut's super strength comes from some ancient thing that grants him power unlike say the character Rogue where the it's just accepted that her power is "scientific". From a person who never heard of "mutants" they wouldn't know the difference between the magic and science, just see the inhuman strength)

Just think of the mayans as being like a shaolin monk whose fighting ability is kept secret, so it's not commonly known. To them it appears normal, to you as magic but that's your perception of it. It's no different to the bald chics in Minority Report trying to use their precog power to predict events before they happen or neo in the matrix having the ability to "dodge" bullets which would be too fast for a human to do. He would have to be "psychic" to maybe predict that they were going to fire there and move early making it seem like magic. The secret training might not be well known or shared widely for scientists to observe it, that's all. It's still science just not well known.

Now I'm not saying that macross NEEDs this to be good, but that if the PC were just like us humans, they would have to have something similar: their own ancient ruins, science, art, songs, weapons, and given they are older than humans, much of it isn't understood by the humans yet.

Just because mystical elements in society embrace the paranormal in their occult disciplines, doesn't make it "magic" in the same sense as seen in the fantasy genre.

In many RPGs the "magic" is usually you as a wizard casting a spell and it's elements of "nature" (wind, fire, water, earth) against man-made technology. (dude wearing some armor, a monster built in lab from unnatural means, mechanical machines made by governments to invade) So a wiccan would be our real world equivalent, some invisible power nobody understands (how it works) being called/summoned for help. So I ask: Why wouldn't the PC have their own versions of this given we stem from them? I'm not asking people to like it, (because I agree that if it was explained better people wouldn't have a big beef over it, just like how they accept star wars' "force powers") just that if gundam and star wars has and even mospeada has a alien witch, why does macross have to be restricted to not having it?

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[jenius]

What is shown in Macross Zero isn't "magic", which is a word that gets bandied about in reference to that show. More like telekinesis, telepathy, and strong paranormal empathy.

You just effectively said "What's shown in Macross isn't Magic, it's Magic!" Telekinesis, telepathy, and "paranormal empathy" don't really exist. Just because these fictional forms of magic have cool sounding names doesn't make them scientific of factual. They're all the stuff of legend.

Just because mystical elements in society embrace the paranormal in their occult disciplines, doesn't make it "magic" in the same sense as seen in the fantasy genre.

I think you're splitting hairs in a big way. There is no telekinesis, telepathy, or "paranormal empathy" in the original Macross series. Anything that seems beyond the realm of modern man is given an explanation (sometimes as vague as "over-tech"). There were no Maos appearing in cockpits just like there were no witches casting ice spells.

While I do disagree with you as to what the theme of the show was, I do agree that there's plenty of room to explore things. When humans are wielding magic though then something has gone wrong. Leave inexplicable powers to unknown aliens.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

When humans are wielding magic though then something has gone wrong.

Humans = macross version of gundam "old types" (so I doubt the average joe will ever have powers)

PC descendants with shamanic training = "new types" (but with stronger psychic powers than the NT in gundam. More like the powers you see in Akira or the big bad guy in Street Fighter II)

And yeah although magic (as we see it in movies) doesn't exist, the religions/beliefs do exist. So in the anime world you've got to expect them to exaggerate things for excitement just as videogames and comic books and role playing games do it.

So instead of uri geller, you have charles xavier, Jean grey, jedi, or the kid in akira.

Instead of dedicated fighter jets, you have transforming robots.

In gundam it's newtypes with psychic predictive ability which allows them to sense what the other is thinking.

In macross it's some mayan priestesses who uses ceremonial magic to gain some kind of power.

Whether they can be made real or not is another subject. If macross goes down a path like that of gundam, I wouldn't be surprised if they try to link the mayan's (who were linked to the visitation to earth by the PC which tampered with our genes to make us evolve quicker) in zero, to the really advanced technology of any space monster that might appear in macross F.

The reason I say this is because the nature-loving magick-wielder tends to favour natural methods of doing things over relying on manufactured things artificially created and sold for money. (because it is materialistic/greedy and would go against the belief) In rpgs materialism is for the fighter classes who relies on "steel", (conan ) physical muscles, money, and their own skill. Whereas the magicians/priests tend to favour the gods or some nature spirit helping them. If the bugs in macross F are sort of a merging of technology with nature, then it brings into question: can the PC have made living robots (organic ones like the cyborg in robocop that has a brain which must be fed to sustain that living organ?)

Now before you judge realise this: in DYRL they have a brain in a jar controlling a ship. This is just one example I can think of where the PC use organic things and connect them to manufactured things. And it reminds me of the bioroid from southern cross. Could these ideas have been floating in the creator's minds back then? It doesn't seem that far out to me. Global mentions something about not being sure he believes that humans are the PC/zentradi, but the similarities can't be denied. What if the atlantean race in DYRL specially-designed only certain individuals to be more evolved than others just like how the zentradi have some clones (like britai) stronger than others for control purposes?

It doesn't seem that out there why they wouldn't just clone britai since he is stronger than all the other ones below himself, unless they had a good reason. So similarly the humans that don't have the powers of the PC descendants, can be thought of as the equivalent of the zentradi grunt, while pc descendants are the equivalent of a bodol or britai. (but instead of more evolved physically, the PC are just more evolved mentally - like how the newtypes consider themselves more evolved than the old types?)

Now the same sort of thing happens in the X-men: the mutants think they are more evolved than humans, and humans have to build robots (sentinels) to keep up with them. I see it as the PC purposely stunting our evolution on purpose so that the mayan descendants of PC who were designed differently have a way of controlling us. (so no, I predict you will not see pilots with powers, just the select rare few characters, linked to the ancient atlantean culture that visited earth to get away from the giants' war of the sexes) Technically it won't be humans with the powers, just the select few mayans who were put here by the "star people" to watch us. The magic wasn't for greedy intent like in RPGs but as protection against the less evolved humans who would eventually fight. (so using esp, seeing visions of a death could be like an early warning of danger vs using a radar or a telescope to see the danger coming using a tool/machine to help)

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[SpacyAce2012]

You just effectively said "What's shown in Macross isn't Magic, it's Magic!" Telekinesis, telepathy, and "paranormal empathy" don't really exist. Just because these fictional forms of magic have cool sounding names doesn't make them scientific of factual. They're all the stuff of legend.

Actually, no. That's not what I was saying, in any shape or form. And it's debatable weither or not such phenomena actually exists in nature. I lean more toward the "it's all bullsh*t" camp. But I have an open enough mind to acknowledge the fact that science can't prove/disprove everything, and that anything is possible until proven otherwise beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So,no. Paranormal phenomena can't accurately be called "magic" in the purest sense. Cool sounding name, or not.

Of course, this is just my take on the matter. Others will differ.

I think you're splitting hairs in a big way. There is no telekinesis, telepathy, or "paranormal empathy" in the original Macross series. Anything that seems beyond the realm of modern man is given an explanation (sometimes as vague as "over-tech"). There were no Maos appearing in cockpits just like there were no witches casting ice spells.

Just because they didn't appear in the original television series, doesn't make it a cardinal sin to include such in later installments in the franchise. It's a science fiction series, despite the elements of "realism" and "scientific" sounding explanations.

Which pretty much means anything goes.

Now, as fans, we all have different tastes. Which means we all have "lines in the sand" that, when crossed, makes a given series/franchise too hokey from our point of view. And from my perspective, Macross Zero didn't cross too far over my particular "line".

But I will say, in my opinion, the "New Age" angle has been explored enough with Macross Zero and Macross 7. It's time to move on. I'm hoping that Macross Frontier will move the franchise from that element, into something new.

While I do disagree with you as to what the theme of the show was, I do agree that there's plenty of room to explore things. When humans are wielding magic though then something has gone wrong. Leave inexplicable powers to unknown aliens.

I'm glad we can agree on something.

As for the disagreements, I actually welcome a different take on things. It helps me keep things in perspective.

[BEAST]

Actually, no. That's not what I was saying, in any shape or form. And it's debatable weither or not such phenomena actually exists in nature. I lean more toward the "it's all bullsh*t" camp. But I have an open enough mind to acknowledge the fact that science can't prove/disprove everything, and that anything is possible until proven otherwise beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So,no. Paranormal phenomena can't accurately be called "magic" in the purest sense. Cool sounding name, or not.

Of course, this is just my take on the matter. Others will differ.

But all "magic" was, originally, was the collection of phenomena surrounding the magi, who were the priests of the ancient Persian religion of Zarethustranism. In that sense, "magic" is just tapping into and applying the energies and forces of the gods as they work within nature. (Coupled with a bunch of hype and propaganda...)

That's basically all science and technology are. They are tapping into and applying the energies and forces of the creating-phenomena-of-nature as they work within nature. Even with all the cool sounding names, that's really all the pure sciences ("sciences") and applied sciences ("technologies") are. Science and supernaturalism each has its own distinctive methodology and lingo, but . . . yeah.

And it would seem that both the Mayan and Protodeviln practices should be similarly categorized.

That is to say, in the world of sci-fi/sci-fant.

---

In the real world, I call "bullsh*t" just as fast as the next guy.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The newtypes in a sense wouldn't term it magic. To them, sensing the other pilot is a very real thing that can be "proven" within the UC universe when up against other ace pilots, because they'll do it consistently in the same manner a martial artist can break concrete slabs with his fist in front of a camera and have people analyse it, and explain the biomechanics.

Now if macross F goes down this path(humans are the older less evolved ones): could the creators please explain it or at least link this in some way to "how machines get it to work" rather than giving us the mysterious ending they gave us in macross Zero? That would make a lot of people (like me) happier. (someone mentioned that perhaps the island itself wasn't even natural, just covered in trees and stuff which could reveal it to be an artificial island with artificial gravity device able to be activated momentarily? - ie just like the sunken islands being lifted in DYRL after misa and hikaru get back to earth?)

Although zero made an attempt to link antigravity with the AFOS and floating rocks, I would like to see the explanation for things. No mysterious endings, just try to legitimise it to the humans who were last seen studying the islanders in Mzero.

Perhaps the military is partly going to the dangerous parts of space just to test the powers of these people and pacifcy or control the PC bugs to learn more about thier limits in combat so they can eventually capture one themselves and learn how they work? (which they failed to do in macross zero as the head escaped)

If they knew about these for 50 years, had time to study the islanders, and learned a bit more about the anima spiritua thing from macross 7 (transmitting emotions from song to a person's heart to affect their feelings which wakes their soul from zombie state to normal state) then it stands to reason they would have their own secret plan to harness this power in some way to try to communicate to the PC that humans are friendly (since we were allowed to access the information in the ruins in macross 7 using mylenes blood as a test) and want to learn more. Maybe all that are left of the PC are guardian robots, or perhaps those remnants forgot their own history and decided it didn't matter if the protodevlin were gone now, because they lost so much and want to be left alone? (so all the bugs are set to see humans as hostile beings due to their wars on earth)

Edited January 21, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker