Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[ChronoReverse]

I was thinking more in line of the performance of the Ghost. If you didn't have a pilot inside a smaller fighter than the rather large 19/21/22, presumably (and apparently from Plus) it would be more maneuverable. In which case, whether you had a more simplistic AI or fly-by-wireless, there'd be advantages (cheaper to manufacture, smaller so you can store more, don't have to worry about pilot lives, etc.). Jamming was a perfect way to completely get rid of all the advantages.

Edited January 8, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Duke Togo]

I don't quite get the confusion from some over what happened with the Ghosts. The ECM went up, and there was a close up of one of the Ghost's eye, with an electrical discharge sparking across its electronics. They then start careening into eachother. Seemed pretty obvious to me, these things got fried.

[Sumdumgai]

I still say, the ECM in Macross Frontier seems eerily reminiscent of the Vindiriance group's anti missile ECM from Digital Mission VFX-2 (used on Macross-13)

Anybody else notice this?

Maybe less based on as much as whoever "they" are, had already developed and advanced this type of technology already. Nice catch, it does seem a lot like it.

[azrael]

I don't quite get the confusion from some over what happened with the Ghosts. The ECM went up, and there was a close up of one of the Ghost's eye, with an electrical discharge sparking across its electronics. They then start careening into eachother. Seemed pretty obvious to me, these things got fried.

It could have been an EMP-type weapon.

[chrono]

I don't quite get the confusion from some over what happened with the Ghosts. The ECM went up, and there was a close up of one of the Ghost's eye, with an electrical discharge sparking across its electronics. They then start careening into eachother. Seemed pretty obvious to me, these things got fried.

It's fanboy intelligent masturbation. Because they REALLY hate that the Ghosts are the modern equal to Brown VF's and will continue to be that way as long as the Bishie is still the shows star.

[Strumvogel]

I think you're also forgetting that the Ghost in Mac + had a different hardware setup, namely the use of the bio-chip which made it capable of highly advanced decision making, unfortunately it also meant that it's also more volatile and unpredictable as well. There was a reason that even in Mac +, its use was controversial in the military, therefore a secret and I believe, outright outlawed outside of it.

And after the Sharon Apple incident, I doubt the military even considers utilising that chip in the current Ghost units we see in Frontier.

Computers onboard military aircrafts are the most well protected systems onboard, otherwise considering how computerised entire planes are these days with fly-by wire systems and so on, effective electrical interference would make them all useless. This certainly wasn't the case in Frontier since the VF-25s and VF-171 didn't seem to be affected.

What we saw in Frontier was probably the result of effective sensor jamming which spoofed the Ghost's images and readings which ended up sending false signals back to it's control ship behind the lines and led to atleast one of them accidentaly crashing into another.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Strumvogel

[Graham]

Computers onboard military aircrafts are the most well protected systems onboard, otherwise considering how computerised entire planes are these days with fly-by wire systems and so on, effective electrical interference would make them all useless. This certainly wasn't the case in Frontier since the VF-25s and VF-171 didn't seem to be affected.

Agreed that computers onboard military aircraff/vessels/vehicles are usually extremely well shielded.

Also agreed that any interference powerful enough to take out the Ghosts electronics would also take out the electronics on the VF-171 and VF-25.

Two reasons I think why the VFs were not effected: -

1) The interference was localised to the area around the bugs base. The Ghosts approached too close and were affected. The VF-171s and VF-25s didn't get that close.

2) The NUNS and SMS were already aware of the interference and had set a higher protection level.

Graham

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The ghost is going to be the hero of the show. Alto will end up getting hurt in a horrible accident, they transfers his brain into a new experimental cyborg body. This cyborg is then wirelessly in communication with the ghosts so it can see everything ahead of time and process all the information instantly.

Alto then uses these ghosts as gundam style "Bits" combined with his tough body to be able to fly at much higher speeds than is humanely possible, but he is unable to love people without real sexual organs. He then becomes an emo cyborg wishing to have his old body cloned again and his mind transferred back into it. Only the military won't let him. Alto goes crazy, and in a kamjin-like backstabber moment of fury, turns all the ghosts against the government and joins the bug race to hunt down the lost PC descendants. The bugs betray him because they just can't trust him, and he then in a char like moment turn against the leader to win the war. After the war nothing is ever heard of him again.

Edited January 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gui]

EMP cannot happen in space: this requires both a geomagnetic field and an atmosphere to prevent the dispersion of gamma rays

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Beyond a certain altitude a nuclear weapon will not produce any EMP, as the gamma rays will have had sufficient distance to disperse. In deep space or on worlds with no magnetic field (the moon or Mars for example) there will be little or no EMP. This has implications for certain kinds of nuclear rocket engines.

[Duke Togo]

Maybe not, but this is anime. We're talking about transforming robots fighting space aliens.

[chrono]

Maybe not, but this is anime. We're talking about transforming robots fighting space aliens.

Oh!! Now that's signature worthy material.

[The_WOZ]

But they're orbiting a gas giant, which can have a very strong magnetic field...

[ChronoReverse]

EMP cannot happen in space: this requires both a geomagnetic field and an atmosphere to prevent the dispersion of gamma rays

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

EMP can exist in space. It's just that a NUKE won't produce an EMP if explode in space. It just so happens the easiest way for us to produce a massive EMP is using a nuke (in our terrestrial plane).

Not that it was likely to be an EMP anyways. It seemed to be just plain jamming used by the bugs.

Edited January 9, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Mr March]

Space is filled with all kinds of electromagnetic radiation and is certainly a medium where EMP can exist. ChronoReverse is absolutely right that while nuclear detonations may have a more limited EMP effect in a vacuum, other types of more exotically generated EMPs can propagate through space. Explosively pumped flux compression generators can be used to create electromagnetic pulses without a nuclear detonation and I think it's safe to say that OverTechnology opens up a whole new field of possibilities for enhanced radiation weapons.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Mr March

[Final Vegeta]

By the way, I don't remember which thread it was, but there was a question about VF-25's missiles. I think I spotted a place where they could be: it's the thing that was thought to be a hip laser; maybe it's a hip missile launcher. The piece does have exit ports for the exhaust gas. Besides, while in Battroid's front picture it seems it is just a stick, judging from the FAST Pack / Armored Pack piece that covers it it's bigger than that, it includes even a hexagonal piece that complete side's outline of the Fighter (a missile magazine).

FV

[Nausica]

Maybe not, but this is anime. We're talking about transforming robots fighting space aliens.

Well said Duke!!

like i always say to my little sister, when she ask my about something that

happens in a movie and its a little far fetched lol hun its a movie

anything can happen!!!

still its interesting to see them.. and at the same time have a debate/discussion

about it..

but dont get at each other throat!

still a very interesting subject.. what can be done, and what can not?

[Nausica]

but imo i still think the old VF-1A and VF-1J are the coolest

maybe im just being nostalgic:P

[Mark Nguyen]

Picking up about the M-25 fleet, that REALLY REALLY cool zoom-in showing the Ghost deployment on the tactical view shows clearly to me that Macross 25 is a single ship. The "pill ships" we're talking about seem to be oversized Aschio-type modules that were built, as needed, trailing from the main ship. There isn't much rhyme or reason to the number of modules, which seem built randomly with a different number of "pills" in each of the two branches trailing from the main City module.

As to why M-25 doesn't have several colony ships like M-7, I figure it's just how the ships ergonmically grow out of neccessity and according to the needs of its colonists, rather than as a standard "fleet" deployment. It seems understood that transportation between the various fleets is possible, and in MF an even routine occurence. It would be astronomically expensive to ship someone from Earth, but all the various fleets would still in general be in contact with Earth unless Something Bad happens to them.

Point being, that M-25 could be a simple colony ship not unlike Megaroad-01. It would be generally self sufficient, but would have all the life-support systems, recreation facilities, science labs, etc. contained within to begin with. Then there's other fleets like M-7, which have specialized ships giving some fleets some additional oomph in certain areas. So, M-7 might be more priviledged in having an entire ship dedicated to movies, or training, or what-have-you. Each fleet operates to an extent as a city-state, just as we have here; but Inasmuch as the United States all of Hollywood, Canada has part of Vancouver. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

But on that note, are there any shots of the tactical displays we see available, made by some of the folks here? I haven't seen any yet...

Mark

Edited January 9, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[chrono]

*cough*

The M-25 is a multiple ship just like M-7 was. You can cleanly see Battle 25 on the front of her in tactical mode. Everything is cleanly labeled. M-25 does have other colony ships. The science ship was the first to be attacked. As for the others not being the in first episode... the M-7 fleet was fairly dispersed and was rarely caught in the same view as the M-7 herself. I do find it completely plausible that the pills were built in transit and were added because the M-25 was designed in the 'forward mobile base' ideal.

I'm beginning to think that some of the ship scales were slightly retconned, they did attempt to match the scales, or the 2D in M7 wasn't well done.

[Beltane70]

I don't recall seeing a science ship being attacked in the first episode despite numerous re-watchings.

[Mark Nguyen]

I think he's referring to the explosion of the "Haruna-esque" ship that was shown in the pre-air advert - the one that we see destroyed in three big explosions. Lots of people, including myself, thought it was an Einstein-class science ship. We've since been corrected, or are we talking about a different segment?

Macross 7 was quick to point out that there were several colony ships in their fleet. I'm a pretty firm believer that M-25 is a single-colony-ship that has expanded over time. City 7 has also expanded over time, but by adding additional ships as well as small "off the grid" Aschio-type pods. M-25 is one ship that has expanded by the addition of multiple large "pill" modules.

Next bit: the original background information says that the Macross 7 fleet was the 37th long-distance emmigration fleet; Battle 7 is the name of the New-Macross class carrier, and City 7 is the name of the colony ship. MF posits that M-25 is indeed the 25th such fleet. However, the warship is clearly referred to as "Battle 25" and "Macross 25" in the aforementioned tactical view. The main city module is labelled simply "Frontier", and the "pill" modules are called "Islands". Discuss.

Mark

PS - Incidentally, the two closest modules that are directly attaced to the big city chip are called Island 2 and Island 3, the main module is directly called "Island 1" in dialogue.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[azrael]

I don't recall seeing those ships either. But there's only been 1 episode so...

I'm beginning to think that some of the ship scales were slightly retconned, they did attempt to match the scales, or the 2D in M7 wasn't well done.

It's a 2-D issue/hand-drawn issue. Most animation these days use some CG whether in scenery, coloring, or even full animation, CG is a cost cutting solution so I expect things to look different.

On that note, the Island 1 module does look bigger, which may account for the fact that it is a larger population and less skyscrapers, i.e. dome is taller so everything fits underneath. M7's population was only in the hundred of thousands. M-Frontier's population is in the millions (I believe it was close to 10 million or something in that range).

[chrono]

I think he's referring to the explosion of the "Haruna-esque" ship that was shown in the pre-air advert - the one that we see destroyed in three big explosions. Lots of people, including myself, thought it was an Einstein-class science ship. We've since been corrected, or are we talking about a different segment?

Macross 7 was quick to point out that there were several colony ships in their fleet. I'm a pretty firm believer that M-25 is a single-colony-ship that has expanded over time. City 7 has also expanded over time, but by adding additional ships as well as small "off the grid" Aschio-type pods. M-25 is one ship that has expanded by the addition of multiple large "pill" modules.

Next bit: the original background information says that the Macross 7 fleet was the 37th long-distance emmigration fleet; Battle 7 is the name of the New-Macross class carrier, and City 7 is the name of the colony ship. MF posits that M-25 is indeed the 25th such fleet. However, the warship is clearly referred to as "Battle 25" and "Macross 25" in the aforementioned tactical view. The main city module is labelled simply "Frontier", and the "pill" modules are called "Islands". Discuss.

Mark

PS - Incidentally, the two closest modules that are directly attaced to the big city chip are called Island 2 and Island 3, the main module is directly called "Island 1" in dialogue.

Not at all. The object that is the FIRST attacked looks like the old science/tech ship from M7, it's even got a name. You know the first time where ECM & the Ghosts are used (anybody figure out what the DRG or ORG tags mean?). (see attachment)

I've only seen 1 clam shell ship in 35 episodes of M7 that was in the M7 fleet, so I assume that you are referring to the specialist ships as "colony ships". If so that we are agreed upon.

In the Tactical view if you look closely enough under the 'Frontier' name it also puts a '25', which could mean that it's military tag is City 25 or that it's part of Fleet/Battle 25. Also when you look at the fleet tag pyramid it also labels Macross Quarters. Would this be the catch all name of "military quarters"?

[chrono]

It's a 2-D issue/hand-drawn issue.

I'd like to agree, but so much has been generally "re-imagined" (asshattery to umbrella the alt universe material) in minor ways that it's kinda hard not to call it retcon. Especially when the '2d issue' turns into vapor when you bring in the concept sketches that don't change during animation.

[Zinjo]

Macross 7 was quick to point out that there were several colony ships in their fleet. I'm a pretty firm believer that M-25 is a single-colony-ship that has expanded over time. City 7 has also expanded over time, but by adding additional ships as well as small "off the grid" Aschio-type pods. M-25 is one ship that has expanded by the addition of multiple large "pill" modules.

Next bit: the original background information says that the Macross 7 fleet was the 37th long-distance emmigration fleet; Battle 7 is the name of the New-Macross class carrier, and City 7 is the name of the colony ship. MF posits that M-25 is indeed the 25th such fleet. However, the warship is clearly referred to as "Battle 25" and "Macross 25" in the aforementioned tactical view. The main city module is labelled simply "Frontier", and the "pill" modules are called "Islands". Discuss.

Mark

PS - Incidentally, the two closest modules that are directly attaced to the big city chip are called Island 2 and Island 3, the main module is directly called "Island 1" in dialogue.

I disagree.

The Island ships may have been physically "connected" to Frontier City over time, but they are far too large to have been built on the fly (no pun intended). The emigration fleet has 10 million people, the Mac 7 had only 1 million. The Island ships number about 30 compared to the 7 industry ships in the Mac 7 fleet. Then you add the compliment of NUNS capital escort ships, the analogy of a City State is really not that far fetched. It might also explain why the fleet has a "President" as opposed to only a "Mayor"...

This is the 11th Super Long Distance Fleet, but we can surmise the this may be the 25th New Macross Class City ship (complete with Battle section), which does track since we know that the 13th New Macross Battle Fortress was already deployed in 2050. Sheryl's surprise with the Island ships' bodies of water suggests that the Galaxy fleet (being older) may not have such things or possibly may not be as large.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Zinjo

[wolfx]

Not at all. The object that is the FIRST attacked looks like the old science/tech ship from M7, it's even got a name. You know the first time where ECM & the Ghosts are used (anybody figure out what the DRG or ORG tags mean?). (see attachment)

Eh? I thought that diamond-shaped thing is the "unknown" they are attacking?

And about the islands....it would seem that the Island 1/City25 is the capital city whereas the other islands are used more for suburban housing, agriculture and maybe some are specialised as resorts etc. The 1s island sheryl comes across when she arrives at the Frontier fleet seems to have an ocean and it looks like an undeveloped hilly country-side.

I find it funny that M7 fleet was so specialised that it has a whole ship dedicated as a "graveyard" called Heaven.

[Noyhauser]

Not at all. The object that is the FIRST attacked looks like the old science/tech ship from M7, it's even got a name. You know the first time where ECM & the Ghosts are used (anybody figure out what the DRG or ORG tags mean?). (see attachment)

No that looks like the Protoculture temple from Macross 7 which contained the Gold Protoculture Avatar. Its the one that Exedol visits on the Planet Rax before Gigil destroys it.

[Zinjo]

No that looks like the Protoculture temple from Macross 7 which contained the Gold Protoculture Avatar. Its the one that Exedol visits on the Planet Rax before Gigil destroys it.

It looks like a placeholder icon for an unknown ship. They were experiencing jamming remember, I doubt they got a decent scan of what was out there...

[wolfx]

It looks like a placeholder icon for an unknown ship. They were experiencing jamming remember, I doubt they got a decent scan of what was out there...

I'm inclined to agree. Considering it has "UNKNOWN" circulating around it.

[DestroidDefender]

I'm inclined to agree. Considering it has "UNKNOWN" circulating around it.

Hmm. I just assumed it was an Einstein R&D Science ship since it was the same shape.

[Noyhauser]

It looks like a placeholder icon for an unknown ship. They were experiencing jamming remember, I doubt they got a decent scan of what was out there...

Oh don't get me wrong... It could be that too. But it "could" also be a protoculture base, since we know they used that exact shape for some of their buildings.

[Gui]

EMP can exist in space. It's just that a NUKE won't produce an EMP if explode in space. It just so happens the easiest way for us to produce a massive EMP is using a nuke (in our terrestrial plane).

[...]

I stand corrected, then

Space is filled with all kinds of electromagnetic radiation and is certainly a medium where EMP can exist. ChronoReverse is absolutely right that while nuclear detonations may have a more limited EMP effect in a vacuum, other types of more exotically generated EMPs can propagate through space. Explosively pumped flux compression generators can be used to create electromagnetic pulses without a nuclear detonation and I think it's safe to say that OverTechnology opens up a whole new field of possibilities for enhanced radiation weapons.

Indeed: with a little research, I could find this and that

Thanks for the indication about 'Explosively pumped flux compression generators'

[Nausica]

Not at all. The object that is the FIRST attacked looks like the old science/tech ship from M7, it's even got a name. You know the first time where ECM & the Ghosts are used (anybody figure out what the DRG or ORG tags mean?). (see attachment)

I've only seen 1 clam shell ship in 35 episodes of M7 that was in the M7 fleet, so I assume that you are referring to the specialist ships as "colony ships". If so that we are agreed upon.

In the Tactical view if you look closely enough under the 'Frontier' name it also puts a '25', which could mean that it's military tag is City 25 or that it's part of Fleet/Battle 25. Also when you look at the fleet tag pyramid it also labels Macross Quarters. Would this be the catch all name of "military quarters"?

if i remember correctly, considering the order in wich it takes place... that pyramid shape is indeed a placeholder for an unknown entity!

and notice also that the small purple fighters approacing the shape is probably the ghost fighters!/?

notice also the rocks floting around the "unknown" i didnt see those around the fleet!

or am i totally offtarget???

Edited January 10, 2008 by Nausica

[briscojr84]

Oh don't get me wrong... It could be that too. But it "could" also be a protoculture base, since we know they used that exact shape for some of their buildings.

The ruins on Rax were not pyramidial shaped.

http://www.un-spacy-qmtdb.com/Locations/pab1.jpg

[chrono]

if i remember correctly, considering the order in wich it takes place... that pyramid shape is indeed a placeholder for an unknown entity!

and notice also that the small purple fighters approacing the shape is probably the ghost fighters!/?

notice also the rocks floting around the "unknown" i didnt see those around the fleet!

or am i totally offtarget???

Ok I see what I did now.

Because of how it was filmed, showing only the red bugs eye(s), I assumed that the bugs jumped in like a VF with an FTL drive would and further assumed that icon was the Einstein science ship (shown to still exist earlier in the shows intro). I didn't think that it was a carrier ship. So it looks like the Ghosts provoked a response.

Also when looking into this bit I stumbled upon how the Islands may have not been constructed 'in flight', but built with the main city ship probably as an experiment or as I posited earlier a forward mobile front line base. Look at time 2:08.

As for the screwy numbering conventions... I can only say that it looks like not all colonizing fleets got the Aircraft Carrier & City Ship colony set-up OR they didn't care about numbering conventions because they made the distinction between the Fleets of Earth and Eden.