Zinjo Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Well, people anyway. But they did the right thing sending the Ghosts in first. For all we know, the Ghosts ARE the frontline fighter for NUNS and everyone else; they would work perfectly fine against Zentradi or other conventional, known threats, before they got close to the fleet. When the Ghosts were innefective against the computer jamming of the enemy bio-machines, the wimpy and inexperienced (in REAL combat, anyway) pilots head in with their specialized VF-171s. Heck, it's entirely possible that the 171s ARE the specialized mecha already, and that it's the pilots who freaked out and were completely outmatched by the enemy. Thus, call in the civilian third wave and their really, REALLY powerful mecha. Mark I suspect the VF-25 are not much more outstanding than the VF-171s. You put an experienced pilot behind the stick and toss on some uber fast packs and then the aircraft becomes formidable. I suspect the SMS would have lasted much longer against the hammerheads in the VF-171s than the NUNS greenhorns did.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 (edited) you know MF ep1 they use Ghost the way the USAF wants to use UAVs UAVs go in frist than F-22s and F-35s funney huh Also as for the Ghost could be BCS and BDI control abroad ship They also did this in SDF:M. They had those black things when the airshow was on and they didn't seem to do much. robot drones will never be as smart as humans. The government just wanted to save money in macross plus since they wouldn't have to pay people to fly the planes, cheapasses. Good thing dyson beat the drone boss in plus even though it had mind control powers through the use of holograms of naked women to hypnotise and confuse you. This should be a tactic of future wars they could use against the bugs, so they can get close enough to shoot them in a weak spot (the nuts) like in many arcade shoot em ups. This is how yang managed to beat the sdf-1 with dyson's: aim for the brains. Edited January 7, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
briscojr84 Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) They also did this in SDF:M. They had those black things when the airshow was on and they didn't seem to do much. robot drones will never be as smart as humans. The government just wanted to save money in macross plus since they wouldn't have to pay people to fly the planes, cheapasses. Good thing dyson beat the drone boss in plus even though it had mind control powers through the use of holograms of naked women to hypnotise and confuse you. This should be a tactic of future wars they could use against the bugs, so they can get close enough to shoot them in a weak spot (the nuts) like in many arcade shoot em ups. This is how yang managed to beat the sdf-1 with dyson's: aim for the brains. The QF-3000E was not black it was dark blue, and they were only shown two or three times and after the air show, they are first shown taking off from the runway then flying past the SDF-1, and I forget what the third was. *Sigh* Watch M+ more closely, Gomez wanted to cut down on the loss of human life, that is why he was pushing the X-9 Project. And it was actually mostly the music she was using to hypnotize people. Edited January 8, 2008 by briscojr84
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) I would argue that the holograms themselves help enhance the mind persuasion. Yang didn't care about the music, and didn't seem to be that much a sharon apple fan compared to the rest of the audience at the concert who were focused on her (choosing instead to try to hack her). It was more the cute holographic girl from my memory. It was only after the holograms started going inside the cockpit in the last episode that he had to be ejected, so maybe certain types of things work more effectively on some people than other things? Also sometimes dark blue in anime represents black. Just like how batman in comics might have a greyish bluish suit instead of black in the movies. I'm willing to think it is more blue now. About loss of life: that might be what they say but could there also be that desire to cut out pilots and replace them like they do the street cleaners which are now robots and would mean no need to pay someone to do that mundane work? Just as doing your banking through phone or internet banking instead of face to face with a person saves banks from having to pay to have a bankteller there every working day? It's not out of the ordinary to think this as it is a theme in pretty much every science fiction show imo. (from drivers of cars, to shop assistants, to military weapons (ie star wars battledroids). After all the mayor of macross city was complaining in SDF:macross how much money they spent on the ship when global had doubts it was ready yet to launch into space, so there could also be a money factor in it too. Everything costs money even in fictional universe. In the instance where drones appeared to be "good enough" they probably looked at how much *cheaper it would be too, and were persuaded to go with the cost saving option. (just my opinion here) I still don't see a drone being superior to a thinking human in a sensitive mission where so many things could go wrong. Speed isn't everything. The ghost in macross plus fought Dyson and Guld after they had used up all their ammo fighting each other. So just because it appeared threatening and quick doesn't mean its superior as that wasn't a fair fight. Part of the deadliness was due to sharon apple having controlled it too which adds another factor. (maybe it was *"smarter" due to sharon being a more humanlike-AI than a normal drone?) *assuming for a sec that a non-transforming vehicle with less moving parts is going to be less costly and complex to mass produce than valks. **the mad scientist used a banned technology to get her to feel more realistic and emotional which might have enhanced its thinking in some way Edited January 8, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
Thai Boxer 9901 Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 im not sure if this has been asked or answered before but does the VF-25 have a name? Come to think of it, the VF-0 didnt have a name either
azrael Posted January 8, 2008 Author Posted January 8, 2008 im not sure if this has been asked or answered before but does the VF-25 have a name? Come to think of it, the VF-0 didnt have a name either No name yet.
wolfx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 im not sure if this has been asked or answered before but does the VF-25 have a name? Come to think of it, the VF-0 didnt have a name either The VF-0 was named "Phoenix", according to the Macross PS2 game's promo video. (The VF-0 wasn't part of the playable valks in the final game) No official name for VF-25 yet. But right now I call it Albatross.
macrossvf-1msx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Ghost could be control BY BCS and BDI form the ships I say thae B/C they where jammed how do you jam a Ghost ??? is it on its own or control abroad ship if its is control abroad ship why not have controlled by BCS and BDI by your pilots before they go off in thier VF
macrossvf-1msx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 The VF-0 was named "Phoenix", according to the Macross PS2 game's promo video. (The VF-0 wasn't part of the playable valks in the final game) No official name for VF-25 yet. But right now I call it Albatross. Why Albatross????
Graham Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I’m still bothered by how the bugs managed to jam the Ghosts. After all, how do you jam an autonomous A.I.? Jamming in the classical sense is defined as techniques to limit the effectiveness of an opponent's communications and/or detection equipment. At best jamming would have cut off communication between the Ghosts and the Macross 25 and reduced the effectiveness of the Ghost’s onboard sensors. Jamming should not have stopped the autonomous A.I.s from continuing to operate independently. However, what we see on screen is Ghosts appearing to veer out of control and crash into one another and electrical discharges around the Ghosts dorsal sensor pod. This leads me to suspect a number of possible conclusions: - 1) By 2059 Ghosts are no longer controlled by onboard autonomous A.I.s, but are instead controlled remotely from a mother ship. Perhaps after the Sharon Apple incident the use of autonomous A.I. fighters is prohibited and the Ghost Fighters are now remotely controlled, perhaps as somebody else suggested by BDS/BDI systems similar to the YF-21. If they are remote controlled, this would explain why they lost control when the jamming started. 2) Or if the Ghost are still controlled by onboard autonomous A.I.s, perhaps what we saw on screen was not jamming per se, but rather a massive Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP), strong enough to overcome any shielding and disrupt the Ghost’s control systems. If it was an EMP, why did the bugs not use it against the VF-171’s and VF-25s as surely it would have been effective against them too? The only thing I can think of is that the EMP or jamming originated from the bugs asteroid or mother ship and is limited in range, so was only used against the Ghosts when they came in range. Graham
Thai Boxer 9901 Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 The VF-0 was named "Phoenix", according to the Macross PS2 game's promo video. (The VF-0 wasn't part of the playable valks in the final game) No official name for VF-25 yet. But right now I call it Albatross. Thats why I couldnt remember it! Thanks for reminding me that it was phoenix. But i dont agree on albatross. Heres my idea....VF-25 K.A.V.F Kick A$$ Variable Fighter
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) The monsters might not be monsters though, just that we think they are. How do we know that they aren't sophisticated biological computers which psycho-kinetically interfere with the machines? If sara could create her own barrier in macross zero, float, make rocks move, communicate telepathically to her sister, create holograms of herself in people's minds, then why not a space monster creating emp? The interference trick worked for the zentradi in the early episodes where the reguld could hide in the water. The monster might have some mutant power and perhaps being intelligent enough was able to manipulate the PC radar thing which the technology humans use is reliant on to attack stealthily. Without that special radar, they couldn't find the AFOS. Or am I am just making poo up? What was the special radar they needed in macross zero to find stuff again? Edited January 8, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
ChronoReverse Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 When the VF-171's were being prepped for launch, you hear a voice talking about the heavy interference and setting the protection level (to 7 or something). I'd presume that they have a special mode that makes the hardware much harder to interfere with (perhaps with some sort of detriment that would make them not always use it).
wolfx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Well jamming probably jammed the Ghost's radar making them "blind" so they don't know where to fly, where to shoot and eventually either collided with each other or got shot down easily. They mentioned that the electronics jamming messed with their missiles and Ghosts. As for why the VF-171s weren't affected by it....they were told before launch to set their jamming protection level to level 7 due to the enemy's strong ECM.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) I wouldn't be surprised if reaction weapons fail, I remember the space whale wasn't killed when they used them. This thing might survive. Edited January 8, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
chrono Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 PS - The phone frog is certainly not a bio-engineered life form. I'm sure it's just a regular cellphone for 2059, built into a cute squishy exterior. Call it a Tickle-Me Elmo with attitude and an actual practical USE. psst!! Current bio-engineering is already at the point of attempting to create organic circuits and we've been using rat neurons in celluar computing experiments. Now take into consideration that macro & micronization is understood, extended exposure to OverTech, and that they've already attempted to fly the VF's via brain it would be hardly surprising to see a consumer level bio-form at this point. Especially since they've seen and been exposed to this tech for a full 50 years. Graham, I'd say that the Ghosts are still AI flown and that the jamming was more than advanced enough to disable them. Not totally the current mind set of brute force noise jamming, but constructed attempts at hacking the Ghosts and giving them virus's as well.
Graham Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Well jamming probably jammed the Ghost's radar making them "blind" so they don't know where to fly, where to shoot and eventually either collided with each other or got shot down easily. They mentioned that the electronics jamming messed with their missiles and Ghosts. I don't buy that. Even if the Ghost's radar is blind, I'm sure they don't fly just on radar alone, but rely on a fusion of multiple sensors and different cameras. Graham
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Basara. He's floating out there in space jamming the signal because the monster is on an endangered species list and wants to preserve it for future generations.
Zinjo Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) The VF-0 was named "Phoenix", according to the Macross PS2 game's promo video. (The VF-0 wasn't part of the playable valks in the final game) No official name for VF-25 yet. But right now I call it Albatross. Well if you can provide a screenshot to that effect I'll believe it. As far as I know the term "Phoenix" was coined by Newtype USA. The VF-0 was called the "Zero" as a homage to the Mitsubishi Zero of WW2... Edited January 8, 2008 by Zinjo
Kelsain Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 When the VF-171's were being prepped for launch, you hear a voice talking about the heavy interference and setting the protection level (to 7 or something). I'd presume that they have a special mode that makes the hardware much harder to interfere with (perhaps with some sort of detriment that would make them not always use it). Perhaps the Ghosts were simply set to level 1 protection or something, so were more susceptible. This is another good use of the Ghosts, to get a little test of the enemy's abilities before sending in your pilots. If Level 7 protection did have some sort of negative effect, it may explain the poor performance of the NUNS fighters. Speaking of that scene, I like what they've done with the flight suits. They look very Macrossy, unlike those ridiculous things from M7. I really wish they'd gone back to Isamu's flight suit though, the transparent visor was a great idea;maintaining a full field of view while still hearkening back to SDFM.
wolfx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I don't buy that. Even if the Ghost's radar is blind, I'm sure they don't fly just on radar alone, but rely on a fusion of multiple sensors and different cameras. Graham And nothing says that those electronics and sensors can't be messed with as well. Its as you say it might not be just radar being jammed but electronic warfare/counter measures as well. Maybe its just a matter of translation and its more like ECM rather than "Jamming" since jamming is mostly radar. At least with human pilots, less things can go wrong since there's someone controlling the valks whereas in a Ghost if any of the components were to fail ie: radar, optics, targetting computer, A.I etc, the Ghost is as good as useless. Well if you can provide a screenshot to that effect I'll believe it. As far as I know the term "Phoenix" was coined by Newtype USA. The VF-0 was called the "Zero" as a homage to the Mitsubishi Zero of WW2... http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=549587 Its in the last few seconds of the video in the valkyrie selection screen.
Graham Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Yeah, I guess we have to consider it as being some type of powerful ECM that can affect electronic systems such as A.I.s. Hopefully, the Ghost’s protection level can be increased so that they will be immune to it like the VF-171s. Same goes for the missiles as well, because at the moment all missiles are effectively useless. Graham
azrael Posted January 8, 2008 Author Posted January 8, 2008 Yeah, I guess we have to consider it as being some type of powerful ECM that can affect electronic systems such as A.I.s. Hopefully, the Ghost’s protection level can be increased so that they will be immune to it like the VF-171s. Same goes for the missiles as well, because at the moment all missiles are effectively useless. I'm sure the Ghosts can have their systems bumped up in protection, it was just a case of "we didn't know". Odd though, the interference was only close to the unknown ship. The bugs seem to use decoys against the missiles. So maybe the electronic interference was localized to just the ship and not the bugs.
Valkyrie addict Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I got a question does the VF-25 carry internal micro-missiles?? I haven't seen completely seen the detail pictures of the VF-25 but I didn't notice the classic micro missile holes in the fuselage... I ask this because before Guilliam enters the colony after the red monster he ejects all his packs and his wings aren't carrying any missile, but when the monster is firing at Alto, he gets two missile shot from the VF-25 so where they come from?? mistake? or there are micro missiles somwhere?
David Hingtgen Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 We need ECCM. Honestly, ECCM should be able to be piggy-backed onto active stealth or something. If valk tech is so advanced by 2040 to have active stealth able to deceive/overwhelm any sensor tech, then cutting through/ignoring/overpowreing jamming should certainly be possible with the same technology 20 years later.
Mr March Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 (edited) Whoa, does that mean this "Phoenix" handle is official? Like Zinjicky, I thought that was an apocryphal title for the VF-0. Any insight? Edited January 8, 2008 by Mr March
azrael Posted January 8, 2008 Author Posted January 8, 2008 Whoa, does that mean this "Phoenix" handle is official? Probably not. It may have the same influence that "Star Mirage" had on the VF-5000. Unofficially added for the game. does the VF-25 carry internal micro-missiles?? I haven't seen completely seen the detail pictures of the VF-25 but I didn't notice the classic micro missile holes in the fuselage... I ask this because before Guilliam enters the colony after the red monster he ejects all his packs and his wings aren't carrying any missile, but when the monster is firing at Alto, he gets two missile shot from the VF-25 so where they come from?? mistake? or there are micro missiles somwhere? The jury is still out on that one.
wolfx Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Yeah, I guess we have to consider it as being some type of powerful ECM that can affect electronic systems such as A.I.s. Hopefully, the Ghost’s protection level can be increased so that they will be immune to it like the VF-171s. Same goes for the missiles as well, because at the moment all missiles are effectively useless. Graham Yeah. But also consider that an A.I's system is more sensitive and unable to deal with scenarios outside of its programming should something mess it up. I wouldn't say the 171s weren't affected by it entirely but since there are live pilots piloting them and not autonomous drones, there's less chance of ECM messing them up. Probably sensors and missiles get affected but they at least can still evade fire and fight back (to some extent ) I got a question does the VF-25 carry internal micro-missiles?? I haven't seen completely seen the detail pictures of the VF-25 but I didn't notice the classic micro missile holes in the fuselage... I ask this because before Guilliam enters the colony after the red monster he ejects all his packs and his wings aren't carrying any missile, but when the monster is firing at Alto, he gets two missile shot from the VF-25 so where they come from?? mistake? or there are micro missiles somwhere? This is entirely a hypothetical guess but I think the shoulder pads house some micro missiles. They do look like missile boxes. Whoa, does that mean this "Phoenix" handle is official? Like Zinjicky, I thought that was an apocryphal title for the VF-0. Any insight? That's the only "official" source of VF-0 Phoenix I've seen so far but still can't be considered official considering the valk itself never made it into the final release of the game.
Graham Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I got a question does the VF-25 carry internal micro-missiles?? I haven't seen completely seen the detail pictures of the VF-25 but I didn't notice the classic micro missile holes in the fuselage... I ask this because before Guilliam enters the colony after the red monster he ejects all his packs and his wings aren't carrying any missile, but when the monster is firing at Alto, he gets two missile shot from the VF-25 so where they come from?? mistake? or there are micro missiles somwhere? You are right, I hadn't noticed the two missiles that hit the red bug just before we see Gilliam's white VF-25 fly down into the colony. Looking at the two missiles though, they appear to be full size missiles, not micro missiles, so I think they would definitely be too large to fit in the shoulders. My guess is internal leg bays like on the YF-19. Graham
deadghost Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I still dont get how the newly operated Ghost's were just taken down like fly's, I mean you guys saw what they did to the yf-21, damn you shoji . But I was so happy to see the new vf-25, and after seeing that bit in manga with the knife action , all I have to say is to give it to that red bug real goooood.
Graham Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 We’ve been discussion the Ghosts the last few posts and seem to have reached a consensus that the ECM from the bug’s base somehow disrupted the Ghost’s A.I., thus rendering them ineffective. Hopefully, the Ghosts will be made more resistant to the bug’s ECM and will prove to be effective in future encounters. Graham
Noyhauser Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 We’ve been discussion the Ghosts the last few posts and seem to have reached a consensus that the ECM from the bug’s base somehow disrupted the Ghost’s A.I., thus rendering them ineffective. Hopefully, the Ghosts will be made more resistant to the bug’s ECM and will prove to be effective in future encounters. Graham I still say, the ECM in Macross Frontier seems eerily reminiscent of the Vindiriance group's anti missile ECM from Digital Mission VFX-2 (used on Macross-13) Anybody else notice this?
ChronoReverse Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 The Ghost in Plus took on two damage VF's which have mostly expended their ammunition piloted by two tired pilots plus it had the advantage of first strike. It still took a long time for it to defeat just the YF-21 (and arguably Guld simply realized he would eventually lose and thus let the Ghost smash up his plane earlier so that he'd the first strike advantage). It definitely OUGHT to be a VF in a dogfight, but we don't know the win rate. In any case, jamming is the perfect excuse to mitigate the Ghost and I was glad for it.
Mr March Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Probably not. It may have the same influence that "Star Mirage" had on the VF-5000. Unofficially added for the game. The jury is still out on that one. Yeah, though the VF-5000 designation was apparently adopted for publications, like Shoji Kawamori's Macross Design Works. It's hard to say. Given that there's unlikely to ever be a decision made on the issue, I don't think there is harm in accepting or rejecting the "Star Mirage" title, so long as a note is made of the questionable officiality. That's the only "official" source of VF-0 Phoenix I've seen so far but still can't be considered official considering the valk itself never made it into the final release of the game. Very good point. Probably best to keep it off for now.
azrael Posted January 8, 2008 Author Posted January 8, 2008 It definitely OUGHT to be a VF in a dogfight, but we don't know the win rate. In any case, jamming is the perfect excuse to mitigate the Ghost and I was glad for it. The Ghost in MF probably does not use the same programming that the Ghost X-9 uses. While the design structure of the Ghost X-9 may have been a proven choice, the programming behind it may have been experimental and deemed too experimental for mass production. I still say, the ECM in Macross Frontier seems eerily reminiscent of the Vindiriance group's anti missile ECM from Digital Mission VFX-2 (used on Macross-13) It very well could be based on the Sound Jamming system from VF-X 2. Unfortunately, we are still over 3 months away from knowing. The individual bugs didn't seem to give off that jamming while the unknown ship did.
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