Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[grss1982]

WAIT!!! WAIT!!!! WAIT!!!!

There was blood coming out of the Red Bug!!!

Malcontent Zentraedi giants in newer suits???

DAMN!!! Graham's image gives us more reason to speculate about the new baddies. :-(

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Which begs the question, do bugs have nuts?

They have armor plated ones magically enhanced by the PC's experimentating with nature and dabbling in the occult so much.

The truth is zentradi evolved from alien apes with tough balls that got harder and harder over millions of years of breeding in a warlike planet (rumoured to be the planet of the apes) where the "hard nut" gene was discovered by scientists to have made them survive this hostile enivornment for so long. Think of the "Saiyans" from dragon ball z only without superhuman strength. On a full moon these apes would go crazy and eventually the pc took this part out of the zentradi to make it easy to control them and later they became more humanlike.

It was only a matter of time before they discovered the powers of the ape's magic nuts and how it could generate enormus power (especially on a full moon) and so they created armor-plated ones for use in mechanoid bugs that need them to breed quickly to increase the chances of survival of certain endangered species. Eventually the insects that had these nuts became smarter and more aware and learnt of their origins and turned against the pc for their frankenstein-like experimentation. Now they are after humans because we remind them of the PC. Fortunately the PC were smart and developed a counter to this in case the insects ever got out of control and had spells to defeat them. You have to chant a certain set of phrases repetitively while standing in a circle to trap them, and then on a full moon stab them in the nuts (does not have to be with a sacrificial dagger or a stake) to kill the monsters once and for all. Only DR.Chiba has the ancient spellbook to save us from this crisis and he lost it. But he was clever although a bit eccentric: In order that he never forgot the spellwords he made it into a song so nobody could forget it.

This is why the PC use music to control things because they know their civilisation will eventually fall (or get destroyed) so they hope people will pass the songs down to others to prevent their own mind-controlled abominations from turning against future races who are too uneducated to understand the science behind their great achievements. (in the form of innocent songs used to entertain children - ie they use people's brains to store the information like a disc hoping it accumulates over a long time to save each following race from eternal doom) The armored bug race knows their time is up (just like the one in space battleship yamato) so they are after the innocent virgins who represent a threat to their kind as these will perform the encantation that defeats them and magically cuts their balls off and makes them weaker and less warlike. I think that might be the reason the AFOS asked if we were a warlike race in Macross Zero, to see if we were in fact strong enough yet to kill their greatest enemies from the universe once and for all and be their Gods bringing punishment on all the mistakes of nature they created which turned on them.

So you see: The AFOS attack on us in macross zero was testing to see how strong we truly were: if we died, then we weren't ready to fight. If we survived, that meant we were granted the right to fight these monsters by proving we could live through all the events they foretold would happen to us in the future. But humans would be allowed only one chance and only if they had the balls to accept the challenge the first time and get off earth quickly to go and fight the monsters they had waiting for us to go and kill with our powerful weapons. It's sort of like a videogame and the universe is a big arena to see who is the strongest as we entertain the bloodthirsty audience waiting for us in the subuniverse which is where all the creatures who are forbidden from playing must go, too injured to continue.

Unfortunately the government needed to tell the humans it was "for our safety" that we should leave earth but the real reasons are much darker: we are going to overthrow the rulers and become their enslavers using all the cool weapons that the PC gave to us and be "the ancient cataclysm" that would destroy the zentradi as told in the legends. (zentradi were peaceful compared to us since they are dumber due to their origins from the apes which only fought against their own kind and had no ambition to rule other planets, only following orders obediently)

The humans = vanquishers of all evil, to those PC that secretly genetically-modified us on earth ages ago. The power is waiting for us like a treasure in an abandoned ruin for us to raid and become rich, having no regard for the dead spirits who guard all this stuff and who come back as ghosts to attack us for taking their stuff.

Basara's songs was one way to trick the PD into giving up their greatest weapons and leaving the bodies of the people they magically possessed. Only the magic spells can ward off the evil ghosts we anger as they are bound by the programming that the immoral PC planted into their heads to make them slaves to do their bidding. The official story was that the releasing of the PD into the world was an accident, but it was possibly done intentionally to revive the dead ghosts in the subuniverse to fight again as undead warriors inhabiting a clone body for use in an emergency when an undead army may be required. It wouldn't work since like vamps they need the energy source from living things to feed them. They turned to the devil for power rather than using natural means which is what caused their own fall.

On the surface the wars are just a war for survival. But underneath it's a generation-spanning holy war in space to see if the good guys can beat the monsters who shouldn't even exist due to ancient tampering with nature in the first place. All the existing monster exist only because they were superior killers and survivalists and not for beauty reasons. Although innocent, they are threatening all the other future species that need to appear, so we are like the immune system trying to defend the universe from the unnatural diseases spreading throughout it which are warlike and self-destructive. Earth had to be destroyed so that other races wouldn't. Of course a universe exists within ourselves too, in the form of emotions and decisions we make in our everyday lives which creates an inner conflict which can't be solved easily. And that is why humans are unique and complex due to having a more democratic approach than other mind controlled beasts in the universe who have no culture except survival of the fittest and who can't take responsibility of themselves. We could have killed the Zentradi but we merely made ourselves immune to the disease so they could still fight and we could survive better by using them naturally without need for mind programming or tampering. This way both are happy: warriors can fight, humans can conquer as the PC destined us. PC treated the monsters like mere Pokemon to be used and abused without giving them freedom to think, whereas humans gave the aliens choice and the ability to not fight if they didn't want to which builds more trust since we won't kill things if they disobey orders like the zentradi leaders who have no problem killing thier own kind which is self destructive.

Edited January 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sqidd]

I figure that gravity control would also put extra strain on the pilot during those high g maneuvers. It seems like it would be a superfluous system.

Wouldn't you be able to use the gravity control to counter act the G's?

[chrono]

I also think the Macross universe 2059 is very different one than we are used to...

Agreed. It's more like The Big Head is attempting to make yet another political statement instead of entertaining us.

ANYWAYS!!!! BOT! ---------------

The new Ghost... It's kinda like a merging between the X-9 and M0's. Upgrade or newer version?? I'd have to say it's an X-9 with a 'sensor pallet'.

Also did everyone see how the Megaroad 1 on the Galactic map curved back towards M25's & MF's routes?

[azrael]

I guess we will have to wait for episode 2 to verify that knife.

[SpacyAce2012]

I posted this elsewhere but I think it can be plausibly explained by economy. If you don't mind I'll just copy and paste my previous post... I'm a bit too lazy to rewrite it

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...4559&st=580

An interesting bit of speculation. And one that makes sense. However, I'm going to have to take issue with the deal of AFVs versus destroids.

Considering the fact that destroids have superior terrain management, mobility, armor, and firepower, a highly mobile destroid similar to the Cheyenne air defense platform, or Spartan MBR, would serve the need better. And I have my doubts that a more conventional AFV would be as effective as a combat system as the destroid.

"Cost-effective" only goes so far. Sure, the upfront costs are cheaper in the short term. But once you factor in losses, training new replacements, etc in actual combat versus what you get out of the system before it gets DXed, the destroid is the better long term investment. Quality versus quantity works better when one doesn't have the luxury of a Warsaw Pact sized military.

As for as the deal of not damaging streets and buildings, that's only a concern in peacetime, over the course of routine patrol duties and exercises. In actual combat, it's far less of a worry. In any case, as the Cheyenne, Macross II destroids, and the M7 "patroids" demonstrate, it's possible to devise a simple secondary motive system on destroids to keep the PR guys happy over the course of peacetime duties.

Now, I'm not completely dismissing traditional combat vehicles. In fact, they still have a role to play in the late 21st Century Macross. Typical security duties, militia use, "first response" units (as we saw in Macross Frontier), and low-intensity conflicts are some roles that come to mind. However, as a primary replacement for the destroid? Not a good idea.

I still hope to see some new destroids in the series as the war heats up. But considering the cameo-only appearance in everything since DYRL, I won't hold my breath.

[jenius]

I guess we will have to wait for episode 2 to verify that knife.

<- Praying against mecha knife fights but also remembering some pretty crazy stuff from the final Macross episodes (like giant cigars, turkey legs, etc.). If this happens it won't be the end of the world, it just won't be something I love.

[biggooftoybox]

Hi everyone,

About the artificial gravity on the colony ship jsut as Sheryl stepped on board (the boob scene). It said the gravity was being brought to 0.7g. But wouldn't that be too low for gravity? Isn't earth normal gravity 1g? If the colony was running only on 0.7g that would cause all sorts of weird problems for the colonists. i.e. body mass etc all get affected, joints dislocation etc?

[Noyhauser]

An interesting bit of speculation. And one that makes sense. However, I'm going to have to take issue with the deal of AFVs versus destroids.

Considering the fact that destroids have superior terrain management, mobility, armor, and firepower, a highly mobile destroid similar to the Cheyenne air defense platform, or Spartan MBR, would serve the need better. And I have my doubts that a more conventional AFV would be as effective as a combat system as the destroid.

"Cost-effective" only goes so far. Sure, the upfront costs are cheaper in the short term. But once you factor in losses, training new replacements, etc in actual combat versus what you get out of the system before it gets DXed, the destroid is the better long term investment. Quality versus quantity works better when one doesn't have the luxury of a Warsaw Pact sized military.

As for as the deal of not damaging streets and buildings, that's only a concern in peacetime, over the course of routine patrol duties and exercises. In actual combat, it's far less of a worry. In any case, as the Cheyenne, Macross II destroids, and the M7 "patroids" demonstrate, it's possible to devise a simple secondary motive system on destroids to keep the PR guys happy over the course of peacetime duties.

Now, I'm not completely dismissing traditional combat vehicles. In fact, they still have a role to play in the late 21st Century Macross. Typical security duties, militia use, "first response" units (as we saw in Macross Frontier), and low-intensity conflicts are some roles that come to mind. However, as a primary replacement for the destroid? Not a good idea.

I still hope to see some new destroids in the series as the war heats up. But considering the cameo-only appearance in everything since DYRL, I won't hold my breath.

Question is, just how effective were destroids in the first place? With the exception of the HWK Monster, which played a different role than most destroids, probably not very. They were large, slow, very easy to pick off... had limited weapons ect. Destroids were designed in an era when humans had little clue about how their opponents would fight... and from the looks of SDF macross and DYRL they were terrible compared to Valkyries. Even in built up areas, Valks seemed more effective there too... so for stopping a major threat to the colony, neither destroids or tanks are really the answer.

At the same time, they there still is a need for civil defence work: ie police duties and maybe helping during an attack. But if they never encounter an opponent inside the dome, what justifies the expense of destroids? Very little.

[jenius]

Effective in terms of the animation is impossible to determine since we weren't given a hero destroid pilot. They were mobile defense platforms on the SDF-1 though and I have to imagine that's more effective (less cost effective) than fixed ones. There are lots of arguments for and against destroids but they HAVE to be cheaper than Valks to build and they HAVE to be more versatile in combat than a tank. I really see no reason why they wouldn't exist at all. I'd be happy to see them in their standard cameo-type role. If it's a worry about streets and buildings why not just have smaller Destroids?

[Kelsain]

Maybe, given the suddenness of the attack, the tanks simply got there first?

Although, as we saw in M7, use of destroids within the dome might not be the best idea...

[glane21]

Hi everyone,

About the artificial gravity on the colony ship jsut as Sheryl stepped on board (the boob scene). It said the gravity was being brought to 0.7g. But wouldn't that be too low for gravity? Isn't earth normal gravity 1g? If the colony was running only on 0.7g that would cause all sorts of weird problems for the colonists. i.e. body mass etc all get affected, joints dislocation etc?

I believe that they were allowing for the fact that if you were born and lived exclusively in space, 1g of full gravity would probably be debilitating to your bones and muscles. Arthur C Clarke wrote a lot about that in one of his 20x0 series books.

[azrael]

Destroids inside colony ships is probably not a good thing considering the amount of firepower they hold. The tanks on Frontier are probably more than the recommended defenses. Any fighting within a colony ship is prohibited considering that you could blow a hole in the enclosure. Another thing to consider is room inside a colony ship. Destroids need room to maneuver. That's fairly hard especially when you pack in the people and buildings. And speaking of which, there's also collateral damage caused by Destroids. I'd hate to see a Destroid go through a narrow street, hence tanks.

[Duke Togo]

Nothing like a Monster clomping along in downtown Frontier. I remember that shot from SDF Macross where the Monster fires up and starts to move. That first foot goes out and just smashes the deck beneath it.

[thankheaven]

I guess the reason they don't have any VF-19's or VF-22's is because they would be too expensive to mass produce ?

An upgraded and maybe a bit simpler version of the VF-17 was cheaper. Maybe the VF-25 is also cheaper and more production-friendly then the 19 and 22.

The VF-25 seems more like a proper replacement for the VF-11 then the 19 and 22 also.

[azrael]

I guess the reason they don't have any VF-19's or VF-22's is because they would be too expensive to mass produce ?

An upgraded and maybe a bit simpler version of the VF-17 was cheaper. Maybe the VF-25 is also cheaper and more production-friendly then the 19 and 22.

The VF-25 seems more like a proper replacement for the VF-11 then the 19 and 22 also.

Dunno. Info about the VF-19 and 22 in 2059 hasn't been released yet.

[Zinjo]

I guess the reason they don't have any VF-19's or VF-22's is because they would be too expensive to mass produce ?

An upgraded and maybe a bit simpler version of the VF-17 was cheaper. Maybe the VF-25 is also cheaper and more production-friendly then the 19 and 22.

The VF-25 seems more like a proper replacement for the VF-11 then the 19 and 22 also.

Actually the VF-25 could be the 2059 equivalent of the VF-5000!

For it's day the VF-5000 was a formidable aircraft designed primarily for colonial defense and used to an extent in Spacy. The use of Armor and Fast packs leads me to believe that the NUNS SOC fighters are probably much more advanced and expensive to produce, thus we don't see many outside military fleet operations (an assumption there).

I expect the issues of available resources, production time and cost are other factors that not only require the use of Contract Defense Wings, but also limit the amount of "special" equipment available to emigrations fleets.

Keep in mind the logistics of patrolling and maintaining the peace on dozens of separate systems would be enormous and by 2059 it is easier to upgrade existing aircraft and/or simplify their construction to get the fleets out there, hence the VF-171.

It is doubtful the VF-171 packs nearly the same kind of specialized hardware the VF-17 did. The removal of internal missile bays, and beam weaponry to possibly the removal of the active stealth systems that made the Nightmare a stealth aircraft to begin with. The use of the design shows us that the plane has proven it is an effective variable fighter and thus the general production version is the adopted fleet defense aircraft of NUNS, replacing the VF-11.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Zinjo

[Graham]

It is doubtful the VF-171 packs nearly the same kind of specialized hardware the VF-17 did. The removal of internal missile bays, and beam weaponry to possibly the removal of the active stealth systems that made the Nightmare a stealth aircraft to begin with. The use of the design shows us that the plane has proven it is an effective variable fighter and thus the general production version is the adopted fleet defense aircraft of NUNS, replacing the VF-11.

Note, the VF-17 has passive stealth, not active stealth.

It looks like the VF-171 may still have the arm beam guns afterall and possibly internal micro missile launchers on the lower legs, but these last two are still to be confirmed.

Graham

[Zinjo]

Note, the VF-17 has passive stealth, not active stealth.

It looks like the VF-171 may still have the arm beam guns afterall and possibly internal micro missile launchers on the lower legs, but these last two are still to be confirmed.

Graham

Passive stealth in what way?

It's shape is that of a typical flock of birds (patterned after the F-117) which is not really relevant to space, the materials that would absorb or deflect Cyclops radar would be expensive to produce and for a mass produced front line fighter may be cost prohibative for the construction of the masses of fighters needed in a fleet the size of Macross Frontier.

I've always felt that passive stealth on a space based "stealth" fighter would be essentially pointless and would have to be active to be really effective, however that is my opinion.

In terms of destroids, one must wonder why new designs of destroids with more effective weapons packages and mobility would NOT have been considered for Colonial defense, Marine Divisions and even internal fleet defence? If variable fighters could advance to such an extent as they have, would it not make sense to have destroids with roller wheels on their feet similar to the Mac II designs and with weaponry like GU-11 gunpods replacing slow reloading cannons, etc...

Yes the variable fighters are a formidable weapons platforms, but their complexity, cost and ultimately their availability would certainly limit their uses to space and air engagements as first line of defense and offensive weaponry.

Granted the destroids are not the stars of the shows, but even marginally they'd have some sort of role in the military arsenal, one would think.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Zinjo

[Gui]

I believe that they were allowing for the fact that if you were born and lived exclusively in space, 1g of full gravity would probably be debilitating to your bones and muscles. Arthur C Clarke wrote a lot about that in one of his 20x0 series books.

IIRC, your skeletton and muscles suffer from the lack of gravity when it is below 0.6G or something like that: I think I read this in G. K. O'Neill's The High Frontier a while back but I don't remember exactly now...

[Noyhauser]

Effective in terms of the animation is impossible to determine since we weren't given a hero destroid pilot. They were mobile defense platforms on the SDF-1 though and I have to imagine that's more effective (less cost effective) than fixed ones. There are lots of arguments for and against destroids but they HAVE to be cheaper than Valks to build and they HAVE to be more versatile in combat than a tank. I really see no reason why they wouldn't exist at all. I'd be happy to see them in their standard cameo-type role. If it's a worry about streets and buildings why not just have smaller Destroids?

Because there is no point... its a waste of money against maneuverable power armor like that used by the Zentredi. You might be right that the animation may not have shown the "true capabilities of a destroid" but it does show us something else: no new destroids ever appear after SDF macross in an actual frontline combat role. In the three series set after SDF and three canon games, no destroid other than the Monster are shown. Kawamori stuffs these series with almost a dozen new valkyries, but not one new destroid design emerges, save for one exception (which I'll get to in a sec.) Instead they are portrayed as museum relics in Macross 7, mostly converted into construction vehicles. Macross Zero has them... but thats a pre-Space War period when Destroids were being built and thought of as being useful because they didn't have real combat experience of fighting against the Zentredi. I don't think this is all coincidence or unintentional.

The only exception is the Monster, which does appear in every series and all of the games, but its not the same as its brethren. It is designed for long range bombardment... not short ranged defence like the Tomahawk, Spartan ect. And guess what happens to the monster? They upgrade it with a transformation sequence to give it greater mobility. That alleviates it from the problem shared by every other destroid: they are immobile, slow, and vulnerable to attack. ITs probably cheaper and more effective for them to add a couple of turrets on the outside of the hull, and bring valks into a city area to deal with anything that might leak through.

Now I could be wrong, and Kawamori might decide to add Destroids to Macross Frontier, but if I had to bet, I'd say its pretty unlikely given his track record.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Noyhauser

[Graham]

Passive stealth in what way?

The Compendium makes no mention of active stealth for the VF-17, but does say the following: "In order to maintain passive stealthiness, the VF-17 does not normally use any Super Parts or external weapon stations"..

I take passive stealth to mean shaping and RAM (radar absorbant materials).

It's shape is that of a typical flock of birds (patterned after the F-117) which is not really relevant to space, the materials that would absorb or deflect Cyclops radar would be expensive to produce and for a mass produced front line fighter may be cost prohibative for the construction of the masses of fighters needed in a fleet the size of Macross Frontier.

We went over this already in one of the other threads. The F-117 does not have the radar cross section of a flock of birds. It has the radar cross section of a bird (singular). Speculating about the capabilities of Cyclops radar is pointless. We know nothing about it.

I've always felt that passive stealth on a space based "stealth" fighter would be essentially pointless and would have to be active to be really effective, however that is my opinion.

Why? Stealth is stealth. If it deflects or absorbs radar wave to prevent detection in an atmosphere, it should also work in space.

Graham

[Graham]

1stly, if the gunpod folds and is stored, does that mean the firing mechanisms are only located in the 1st half of the gunpod? I don't remember the firing ports on the Bandai VF-17S....gotta go home and check but in any case the gunpod doesn't fold and store on the legs. But if the gunpod fires from the bottom of the fighter, whereas it opens up in the opposite direction in battroid mode...wow that just means the legs area is hollow and there's no place to have engines. Or am I misunderstanding your description of where the gunpod fires in fighter mode?

Wolfx, as promised, here's some lineart with notes, showing how the VF-17 stores and ejects it's gunpod and where the firing port is for fighter mode.

Presumably it's the same for the VF-171 as in the manga, the VF-171's gunpod looks identical, or nearly so.

Graham

[IAD]

Ok... I'm a little tired of the flock-of-birds thing.... Radar screens don't show high-resolution images of the shape of the target generating the return... Just dots. (OK, dots, sometimes with lines extending off them, to show travel heading.) Even the F-22 radar doesn't show airplane shapes, and it's the latest/greatest thing around, radar-wise.

Radar waves striking a non-stealth aircraft tend to bounce back towards the radar station. The angular shape of the -117 causes radar waves to bounce off in various directions... (For stealth, any direction besides that of the source radar station is a good thing.) This reduces the amount of energy returning to the radar station, which in turn makes the aircraft appear very small. (A very small dot... Like a bird.)

As Graham said, stealth works in space, too. The US seems to have deployed a stealth satellite as early as 1990. (Code-named MISTY. See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/afp-731.htm Good site, not an "Above-Top-Secret"-type. )

Having said all that, I never really liked the VF-17/171 (sorry Graham!), for the simple reason that the faceted shape of the F-117 was due to the limited computing power available at the time. Newer stealth aircraft (B-2, F-22, YF-23) are nice and smooth, and have excellent stealth characteristics. (And, coincidental, are nothing like a flock of birds in size and/or shape.) For me, seeing facets on a stealth OT variable fighter is like seeing tiers of oars on a modern battleship. (Now, the SB-10/10 Starwing... Much better. ( http://www.un-spacy-qmtdb.com/Macross%20Plus/starwing.htm ))

~Luke

Edited January 5, 2008 by IAD

[l_e_m]

It is doubtful the VF-171 packs nearly the same kind of specialized hardware the VF-17 did.

The VF-171 has the same wraparound interface pioneered on the YF-19, which is something I believe the original VF-17 did not have.

Ok... I'm a little tired of the flock-of-birds thing.... Radar screens don't show high-resolution images of the shape of the target generating the return... Just dots. (OK, dots, sometimes with lines extending off them, to show travel heading.) Even the F-22 radar doesn't show airplane shapes, and it's the latest/greatest thing around, radar-wise.

An AESA radar linked with an EOTS system pioneered in the F-35 would show images of the target.

As far as I know, the F-22 does not have this capability yet.

[Mr March]

Oh, this latest discussion of the VF-17 gun pod just gave me another idea for some analysis pictures I can add to the M3

[chrono]

Why? Stealth is stealth. If it deflects or absorbs radar wave to prevent detection in an atmosphere, it should also work in space.

Graham

Only IF current radar is involved.

Besides it doesn't void the secondary systems that would see generations of further development. IR, UV, MicroWave, EM, and Mass becomes equal to or greater sensor than simple radar. And these only cover the ones that we know about! Who knows what other fields they've expanded on with all of that Overtech!

So IF they have stealth in the current Macross it would most definitely be of the active type and active stealth doesn't mean jamming it means actively reducing everything that will give you away. Extra cooling, extra shielding, reduced & shielded engine output, reduced usage of systems, reduced mass, & etc.

The shape is to help keep the audiences attention and to keep it "familiar".

[Mr March]

When it comes to stealth and detection in Macross, I think the only thing we can be certain about is parity of the two technologies. They make mention of cross-dimensional radar in both Macross 7 and later in Macross Zero as well as more exotic sound energy (Macross 7) and detection methods like gravity wave sensors (in the official literature for the Zentradi Quel-Quallie Theatre Scout). However, we have to assume that stealth technologies in Macross have maintained pace with the more powerful and exotic detection methods that are used through OverTechnology. Otherwise, stealth would be meaningless in any practical application.

Active stealth is a good catch all for Macross stealth, which is why I believe its utilized by Kawamori and Co. so often. It doesn't require a Valkyrie to be shaped a certain way and allows Kawamori to design his Valkyries in any way he sees fit without having to draw them in a stealthy manner. Active stealth can also use the same exotic types of OT to avoid electronic detection on the modern Macross battlefield. I think that's as specific as we can get.

[briscojr84]

Someone mentioned an upgunned Bolognese, anybody have a screen cap of it.

[wolfx]

Wolfx, as promised, here's some lineart with notes, showing how the VF-17 stores and ejects it's gunpod and where the firing port is for fighter mode.

Presumably it's the same for the VF-171 as in the manga, the VF-171's gunpod looks identical, or nearly so.

Graham

Thanks for the pics Graham! Gosh the way the gunpod is stored is causing me to tilt my head all over the place but i finally got it. The gunpod is like basically next to the engines and the legs are crammed! I'd be surprised if what you assumed to be micro missile launchers on the 171 are true.

[jenius]

Because there is no point... its a waste of money against maneuverable power armor like that used by the Zentredi.

But a tank is better?

no new destroids ever appear after SDF macross in an actual frontline combat role. In the three series set after SDF and three canon games, no destroid other than the Monster are shown. Kawamori stuffs these series with almost a dozen new valkyries, but not one new destroid design emerges

Isn't it true that Kawamori didn't actually design the original destroids? Is it possible that he has simply excluded them (or relegated them to museum status) as simply acknowledgement that they were never his babies? Yeah, he's gone nuts with new valk designs but he always stated that was his passion. There inclusion in MacZero seems to be his way of making all of this okay by implying that they were just early technology that became obsolete. The problem is that doesn't really make sense. In fact, a destroid makes WAY more sense in space combat than a transformable jet. Think about it, if you were on a colony ship due to spend 99% of its existence outside of the atmosphere wouldn't you have the majority of your arsenal be composed of vehicles that were built without the restrictions of atmospheric combat? Macross can't do that though because then it would be like Gundam and I think that's the real reason we've seen the demise of the destroid. Another show already has cornered the market on big, human-shaped, robots. Think what the destroids would be like if they had evolved... they would be completely friggin' awesome and in a show based on space combat you'd wonder why everyone wasn't floating around in space in destroids more reminscent of GBP'ed Valks than the ol' clunkers of the original show.

Edited January 5, 2008 by jenius

[Noyhauser]

But a tank is better?

As a cheap civil defence measure. Purchasing weapons rarely has to do with what is better, but what is better for what we can afford. I doubt that its considered an effective

Isn't it true that Kawamori didn't actually design the original destroids? Is it possible that he has simply excluded them (or relegated them to museum status) as simply acknowledgement that they were never his babies?

But the monster does appear, in every series and game produced, and even gets a new version the VB-6. Its really the exception that proves the rule. Moreover Kautaka Miyatake (he designed the destroids and almost everything else) did mechanical designs for M+ M7 as well sooo I don't think it was just because Kawamori is racist towards the destroids.

Yeah, he's gone nuts with new valk designs but he always stated that was his passion. There inclusion in MacZero seems to be his way of making all of this okay by implying that they were just early technology that became obsolete. The problem is that doesn't really make sense. In fact, a destroid makes WAY more sense in space combat than a transformable jet. Think about it, if you were on a colony ship due to spend 99% of its existence outside of the atmosphere wouldn't you have the majority of your arsenal be composed of vehicles that were built without the restrictions of atmospheric combat?

Macross can't do that though because then it would be like Gundam and I think that's the real reason we've seen the demise of the destroid. Another show already has cornered the market on big, human-shaped, robots. Think what the destroids would be like if they had evolved... they would be completely friggin' awesome and in a show based on space combat you'd wonder why everyone wasn't floating around in space in destroids more reminscent of GBP'ed Valks than the ol' clunkers of the original show.

There are numerous problems with your analysis. First off its pretty clear that economics make up a huge part of the Macross universe. Its the reason why the VF-5000 replaces the VF-4, the production of the VF-9, and the selection of the 19 over the 21. Its obvious that they want all environs combat vehicles, partly because its more economical than just space combat use destroids. As seen in Macross 7, colonization fleets do spend significant time on the ground, even if they don't colonize a planet. Are you then forced to buy two wholly separate arms, one space based and then one atmospheric based? Thats a completely unacceptable waste of resources. Its better to have one vehicle that do both jobs at 80%.

Moreover there is something to be said about having the weight of your research on one area, especially after the destruction of earth. If all your research is on transformable fighters, then its likely that you're going to continue to focus on transformable fighters as your main design of choice.

[Kyp Durron]

I guess the reason they don't have any VF-19's or VF-22's is because they would be too expensive to mass produce ?

An upgraded and maybe a bit simpler version of the VF-17 was cheaper. Maybe the VF-25 is also cheaper and more production-friendly then the 19 and 22.

The VF-25 seems more like a proper replacement for the VF-11 then the 19 and 22 also.

I'm sure the VF-19 is still a major contender in 2059, but it may very well be due to financial and production logistics issues. We'll just have to wait and see. but it seems pretty obvious that the VF-25 is the newest, bleeding edge fighter and appears to be best they have. The VF-25 strongly reminds me of the VF-0's.

-Kyp

[azrael]

The VF-171 has the same wraparound interface pioneered on the YF-19, which is something I believe the original VF-17 did not have.

Actually, if the VF-171 is a dumb-down version of the VF-17, then it inherited the cockpit layout (and wrap-around imaging screens) from the VF-17, not the YF/VF-19. And the VF-17 did have wrap around imaging.

Link

wrap-around imaging monitor screens in Battroid mode.

[azrael]

I'm sure the VF-19 is still a major contender in 2059, but it may very well be due to financial and production logistics issues. We'll just have to wait and see. but it seems pretty obvious that the VF-25 is the newest, bleeding edge fighter and appears to be best they have. The VF-25 strongly reminds me of the VF-0's.

Part of me still suspects that the VF-19 is reserved for combat units, not colonial units. The VF-25 may be the new unit for colonial units. Unfortunately, we don't have enough info yet.