IAD Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Dunno, precision stabilization like that is much harder than stability augmentation, like you find on an F-117... I mean, automated mid-air refueling is just starting to be developed, and that's a lot easier than trying to fully stabilize an object in space, such that it has zero motion relative to another object... I mean, if we want to pretend this is real.... Keep in mind that any accelerations (movement of arms/legs/head, aiming of the rifle, opening of the rifle's cooling array, etc.) would cause linear and/or angular accelerations of the aircraft as a whole. Those would be a real pain to counteract in real time (i.e. NO movement), given the locations of the maneuvering thrusters, vs. the possible acceleration vectors. Plus, you'd really end up burning through a lot of thruster reactant. The grapple is a simple and effective method of achieving a stable firing position, and pretty neat-looking, too. ~Luke
Macross007 Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Constant readjustments, yes. Constant MANUAL adjustments, though? I'd have a hard time believing that, since we've had flight control computers with the main purpose of making numerous tiny adjustments to planes' flight control surfaces so that pilots can keep less-than-aerodynamic planes like the F-117 in the air since at least the late 80's. Honestly, if Mikhail's VF is dependent on standing on something to be stable enough to fire its sniper rifle, that kind of limits its role. Might as well be a Destroid. Oups, I did not think about that ...
Macross007 Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Maybe the gun's recoil is so powerfull that it requires quite a lot of thrust to compensate; and that will give away the sniper position. Maybe ...
Macross007 Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 (edited) Dunno, precision stabilization like that is much harder than stability augmentation, like you find on an F-117... I mean, automated mid-air refueling is just starting to be developed, and that's a lot easier than trying to fully stabilize an object in space, such that it has zero motion relative to another object... I mean, if we want to pretend this is real.... Keep in mind that any accelerations (movement of arms/legs/head, aiming of the rifle, opening of the rifle's cooling array, etc.) would cause linear and/or angular accelerations of the aircraft as a whole. Those would be a real pain to counteract in real time (i.e. NO movement), given the locations of the maneuvering thrusters, vs. the possible acceleration vectors. Plus, you'd really end up burning through a lot of thruster reactant. The grapple is a simple and effective method of achieving a stable firing position, and pretty neat-looking, too. ~Luke So in your opinion, the trusters are not enough stable and the cable is fully stable. So with a cable is a lot easier to control the recoil. Edited April 23, 2008 by Macross007
raymond Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 So in your opinion, the trusters are not enough stable and the cable is fully stable. So with a cable is a lot easier to control the recoil. I think that the point of the cable was just a way to get Mikhail quickly onto to the City 25 hull. It would then be a matter of the Valkyrie's feet getting him a firm hold onto the hull which would serve to provide stability to his shot. Kind of like the same way Spiderman or Batman would use their web/rope-and-anchor to get from one place to another quickly without having to jump or run or use some complicated jet pack or other.
Holocause Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Would'nt it have been faster for Mikhail to jus jet his way into the hull of the ship rather than grapple to it? I too find it unnecesary function wise but added in more for the purpose of flare. I mean if he needed to be in contact with a large mass for better stability in space... then all the other fighters should be too even using standard gunpods.
wolfx Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Taking a break from knives, cables, and thrust/mass ratios... Has anyone else noticed something that's been MISSING since episode 1? Something that was almost uniformly reviled? I speak, of course, about the green energy arc during the 25's transformation. It just hit me on my last viewing - and sure enough - no green lights, except for that first transformation of Ozma's fighter. (It is still present in the broadcast version of Ep1) I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned before! Most likely it's b/c the transformations just seem right now, where before, they definitely seemed wrong. It happens too fast that you don't notice it anyway. Doesn't really mattter. Who knows...maybe not visible if within atmosphere? I think that the point of the cable was just a way to get Mikhail quickly onto to the City 25 hull. It would then be a matter of the Valkyrie's feet getting him a firm hold onto the hull which would serve to provide stability to his shot. Kind of like the same way Spiderman or Batman would use their web/rope-and-anchor to get from one place to another quickly without having to jump or run or use some complicated jet pack or other. Exactly. Why are people having a problem with the cable? Its a 0 g environment and getting into that position quickly is easier with a cable rather than thrusters.
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 It just hit me on my last viewing - and sure enough - no green lights, except for that first transformation of Ozma's fighter. (It is still present in the broadcast version of Ep1) I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned before! Most likely it's b/c the transformations just seem right now, where before, they definitely seemed wrong. I think it may have been a beauty shot for the first episode that was never meant to be continued. The extra work to keep doing it would be a waste of time that doesn't serve the story. On a TV production schedule, time is at a premium, so all unnecessary work is often culled from the herd so to speak...
Kelsain Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 I think it may have been a beauty shot for the first episode that was never meant to be continued. The extra work to keep doing it would be a waste of time that doesn't serve the story. On a TV production schedule, time is at a premium, so all unnecessary work is often culled from the herd so to speak... Ah, but it's also missing in the opening credits, the traditional home of the beauty shots. Honestly, whatever the reason, I'm glad they decided to do without it. Feels like Macross again, instead of Transformers Energon or Power Rangers. Now, if they would just show the dang VF-171 transforming and kicking some ass...
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Ah, but it's also missing in the opening credits, the traditional home of the beauty shots. Honestly, whatever the reason, I'm glad they decided to do without it. Feels like Macross again, instead of Transformers Energon or Power Rangers. Now, if they would just show the dang VF-171 transforming and kicking some ass... Maybe, but if it's in the openning credits the audience would be expecting to see it all the time, not necessarily good.
Knight26 Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 In regards to the cable and standing on the hull to snipe. Sniping is hard, it is one the most difficult tasks there is because of all the forces and distances involved. Traditionally a sniper stays as still as possible, making only minute adjustments to their position in order to take a shot, taking a shot while on the move is extremely difficult. The best targets are ones that are static, but in this situation that isn't possible. In space you have movement along and about all three axis' on the part of the target and the shooter. By having the valk with the sniper rifle shooting from the "stable" position of the city-25's hull it taxes six movements out of the equation, unless you count the movement of city-25 itself. It is the therefore easier to compensate for movement of the target when all motion is relative to a "fixed" point in space, city-25. If he were free floating he would have to compensate for his own movement, rotation, velocity, acceleration, pertubations due to position adjustments, etc... along with those of the target. By sitting on the hull of the ship those factors are effectively reduced to zero. Remember even if the valk is still except for moving the rifle while free floating any movement will impart a motion on the whole, be it a spin or translation movement. Now as for the cable. Fuel/reaction mass, is expensive, no matter how you look at it. In order for the valk to quickly reach its shooting perch it can either twist about to jet down, loosing sight of the target, then reorient and slow to a soft landing, burning fuel and time, or... As seen in the show fire its anchoring cable and reel itself in at a know speed, assuming some kind of overtech cable system it might even be able to brake itself relatively easily to cushion the impact. This has been experimented with by astronauts aboard the space shuttle and space station, mostly the russians aboard MIR, back when she was flying. Beyond the retraction capability of the anchor cable, it could also provide some limited stability in the case where the sniper doesn't have time to reel into the surface. If the valk is attached to the city-25 and can somehow make the cable go rigid, say through some kind of overtech Energy Converting Armor system, or muscle fibers in the cable, it can achieve a similar effect tolanding on the surface of City-25, though pertubations would be more likely and more exagerated then on the surface, but less then while free floating.
azrael Posted April 23, 2008 Author Posted April 23, 2008 Just to mess with you guys more. Specs for Mikhail's gunpod only list it as a "sniper rifle" and that his VF-25G is normally equipped with it. Luca's green RVF-25 is designed for electronic warfare.
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Just to mess with you guys more. Specs for Mikhail's gunpod only list it as a "sniper rifle" and that his VF-25G is normally equipped with it. Luca's green RVF-25 is designed for electronic warfare. I dunno, the "G" seems to be a specialized VF-25A to me with equipment to serve a specific function. I'm not sure who said it, but the VF-25 seems like it is set up like a sqaud of soldiers as opposed to a generic squadron that just happens to transform into Battroids with common weapons loadouts... I am liking it...
Mr March Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Just to mess with you guys more. Specs for Mikhail's gunpod only list it as a "sniper rifle" and that his VF-25G is normally equipped with it. Luca's green RVF-25 is designed for electronic warfare. *sobs* I was hoping for more. Guess we have to wait
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 *sobs* I was hoping for more. Guess we have to wait There, there, Marchysuckybaby.... Here have your bottle...
Mr March Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 There, there, Marchysuckybaby.... Here have your bottle... "There is no curse in elvish, entish or the tongues of men for this treachery!"
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 "There is no curse in elvish, entish or the tongues of men for this treachery!" LOL...
IAD Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 So in your opinion, the trusters are not enough stable and the cable is fully stable. So with a cable is a lot easier to control the recoil. Yep, that's basically it, but more important than recoil mitigation, a secure mounting prevents any other unwanted movements. Like I said, anything mass being moved (gunpod, arms, legs, gimballed thrusters, etc.) would induce an opposite movement (though of smaller magnitude) of the entire vehicle. What I don't get is why Mihkail has to work so hard to snipe... I mean, in real life, the THEL (tactical high-energy laser) turret can slew an IR laser onto a mortar or artiliery round in mid-flight, at a range of several miles, and automatically track the projectile for the 3-5 seconds required to destroy it. Mind you, these targets are only ~24" long, and maybe 4" in diameter. If Macross was real, Mihkail would only have to lase the target, designate a strike-point, and sit back, and let the -25 do all the hard work. ~Luke
The_WOZ Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 My guess is that's what Luca was trying to do, but the Vajra must have some kind of countermeasure...
Mr March Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 I agree with IAD's point. This was pin point accuracy required and even the slightlest movement could jeopradize Ozuma. So Mikhail looked for a solid pearch from which to snipe. Also, he was probably looking for cover as well, to keep himself and his VF-25 safe while he took extra time to aim and fire. The Vajra was still an offensive threat at the time.
Duke Togo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 My guess is that's what Luca was trying to do, but the Vajra must have some kind of countermeasure... I have a feeling Luca may not be very good in actual combat, which is why he is on recon.
Mr March Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 I have a feeling Luca may not be very good in actual combat, which is why he is on recon. That could be it. Or it could be that Luca is a competant combatant and the scene was designed to yet again emphasize Mikhail's far superior skills above those of the average pilot.
Zinjo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 I have a feeling Luca may not be very good in actual combat, which is why he is on recon. Well his strength is his ability with communications and computers. He probably was looking for an automatic lock-on from the VF-25 and when it couldn't he was lost. Michel on the other hand was an accomplished combat pilot able to think on his feet so to speak and didn't need to rely on the fighter's auto systems to fight.
azrael Posted April 23, 2008 Author Posted April 23, 2008 Well his strength is his ability with communications and computers. He probably was looking for an automatic lock-on from the VF-25 and when it couldn't he was lost. Michel on the other hand was an accomplished combat pilot able to think on his feet so to speak and didn't need to rely on the fighter's auto systems to fight. And it's hard to aim when Ozma and the Vajra keep moving around...
Duke Togo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 And it's hard to aim when Ozma and the Vajra keep moving around... Not too hard for Mikhail...
azrael Posted April 23, 2008 Author Posted April 23, 2008 Not too hard for Mikhail... Mikhail got a better vantage point to shoot from. Luca just stopped and pointed his gun.
Duke Togo Posted April 23, 2008 Posted April 23, 2008 Mikhail got a better vantage point to shoot from. Luca just stopped and pointed his gun. Exactly, which shows his lack of real combat skills.
Holocause Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Does Luca's VF even have guns? Maybe some EMP's but from the looks doesn't appear that that green little VF is packing any heat. That Radome sure does look though like a big bull's eye. All Luca need to do now is paint a big "Hit Me" on his fighter. And don't diss the Recon/Electronic Warfare specialist. Any of you who've played Chromehounds Multiplayer will appreciate the value of a good tactical weapons officer. Hard enough piloting a mech across terrain avoiding enemy fire but keeping an eye on where the enemy is and giving situational awareness to the rest of your squad at the same time too is harder than anything.
Graham Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Does Luca's VF even have guns? Maybe some EMP's but from the looks doesn't appear that that green little VF is packing any heat. That Radome sure does look though like a big bull's eye. All Luca need to do now is paint a big "Hit Me" on his fighter. According to the new pics on the official site, Luca's RVF-25 has a standard gunpod and of course should also have the inbuilt hip/wing root beam guns. I'm wondering where the ventral Elint fin goes when in battrooid mode.
Mr March Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 I'm cleaning up the latest website pictures right now and ventral ELINT fin of the RVF-25 rests on the outer edge of the left arm, just underneath the shield.
Morpheus Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 According to the new pics on the official site, Luca's RVF-25 has a standard gunpod and of course should also have the inbuilt hip/wing root beam guns. I'm wondering where the ventral Elint fin goes when in battrooid mode. Don't forget the head laser. ??????
Graham Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Don't forget the head laser. ?????? Not sure if Luca's RVF-25 has head lasers or not. Those things on the head look too thin and may just be specialist comms antennas. Graham
the_foul_fowl Posted April 24, 2008 Posted April 24, 2008 Aye, also the two pointy ends on the head seemed to be joined via a thin arc-like structure, via the website pics. Could be some sorta enhanced antenna thingamajig.
taksraven Posted April 25, 2008 Posted April 25, 2008 Is the SMS carrier fitted with a Wave Motion Gun? Or does the Captain just dig glasses that look like welders goggles? This detail has probably been talked about before but I missed it. Taksraven.
Mr March Posted April 25, 2008 Posted April 25, 2008 They are Death Star goggles! "You may fire when ready"
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