Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[Ironside]

Err..........no we don't.

While I don't want to re-ignite the whole "Armored VF-25 can/can't fly in an atmosphere" arguement, I do feel I need to say say that I personally disagree with the above quoted statement. As, as far as I know and I'm open to being corrected, there is nothing officially published or nothing shown so far in the anime to back up this statement.

At the momen't about the only official hard data we have about the VF-25 are it's height, length and wingspan.

Ironside, I freely admit I am arguing semantics here, but if you had written "I think the VF-25 has performance similar to the VF-19", I wouldn't be writting this post.

For all we know, the VF-25 may be as much of an improvement performance-wise over the VF-19 as the VF-19 was over the VF-11.

Until we get some hard stats from Kawamori, anything else is just pure fan-based supposition, nothing more, nothing less and should not be presented as fact.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that the VF-25 with have around 30%-40% higher thrust than the VF-19 and be of a similar weight, or even slightly lighter without Super or Armored Packs, thus likely having a far higher thrust to weight ratio. Again, just pure guesswork on my part. Heck for all we know it may even have some sort of gravity control system, inertial cancelling system and other fancy new tech.

Graham

I admit it's not a hard stat, but the official site carries a statement to that effect (translated second hand knowledge to be sure). While such a statement isn't sufficient to derive hard numbers it is good enough to produce a ball park figure, which is all I was after.

I think folks are getting way too hung up on accuracy. Accuracy is impossible with the information we have on every VF except the Valkyrie, and I'll go out on limb and say even then it's next to impossible. With respect Graham, I never presented anything as fact. Here's the complete quote you reference.

We know the -25 has performance similar to the VF-19. We know the -25 is about the same size as the -19 and it could be in similar weight category (I think it would pushing the boundaries of believability to argue that the 25 weighs so much more than the 25 as to make a difference). So, while we can't use real stats for VF-25 the VF-19 can act as a stand-in for the -25 and give us results close enough to the ball park to determine whether or not the VF-25 full armor could fly in Earth gravity.

Also relevant:

Using our worst case scenario YF-19 based simulation....

So our simulated YF-19 based VF-25 Heavy...

I wouldn't call "close enough to the ball park", and "worst case scenario simulation" an attempt to present clearly identified speculative data as fact. While it is true that the VF-25 is suggested to be faster (and probably is--designers do try to meet fan expectations), for the purposes of my analysis that doesn't matter. I think Mr. March's voiciferous opposition to my post has given many people the wrong idea. Let me put it this way:

If, as Mr. March would have it, we stick only to official data, my analysis proves the following:

1. The YF-19, if given an armor system like the VF-25, could not only fly, but could also carry ~7 to ~12 tons of extra weight.
2. Unless we assume A) VF-25 is atleast 229% heavier than the YF-19, B)the Armor system is about 30% heavier than the GBP-1s, AND C) the VF-25 has less powerful engines than the YF-19, the VF-25 should be able to fly at least as well as the YF-19 from the point above.

I make no claims as to the specific performance of the VF-25, beyond interpreting a statement from the official site. I never did. I thought it would be obvious that if I could demonstrate that an older, less powerful fighter--carrying extra weight--could fly in heavy armor, the there's no reason to think the anime unreasonable by showing the VF-25 doing the same. Please note, even the specific reference you object to was used only to set a lower boundary for the discussion.

The only fan speculation assumed to factual I can see in my posts is summed up as, "The VF-25 is at least as powerful as the YF-19." That is the entire basis of my analysis.

[Ironside]

I could have sworn I heard that the SK designed the VF-25 to be slimmer than it's predecessors to accomodate the FAST Packs and Armor Packs. With the apparent "lack" of internally stored ordinance, would not the thrust to weight ratio be increased on a non-augmented fighter?

We've been told that the FAST Packs are primarily for speed (although I am sure they are armed with micro missiles, if one considers the tell tale ports on the top) and the Armor Packs are for superior weapons loadout.

Gilliam jestisoning of his FAST packs in ep 1 makes sense, since he didn't need them to fly around an environment that is only 15km long with a ceiling of 2 km, however utilizing an Armor Pack would be tactically wise for close combat in the same environment. Now since the classic GBP was primarily designed as ground based weapons augmentation, would not the designers keep that in mind with the new Armor pack? Thus, would they not possibly utilize light weight ceramic alloys to provide maximum protection along with minimal weight gain for atmostpheric engagements?

The most efficient way to get to a combat zone with an Armor Pack quickly is via GERWAK mode, since transformed jet air flight would be like trying to fly a "truck"! I suspect or would expect the armor pack NOT to be made out of iron, but much lighter, stronger alloys, to accomplish this end. IMHO.

At the risk of getting into another round of speculation furor, I think the VF-25 does not lack internally stored ordinance. Gilliam fires two missiles at the Varja before it kills him, and after dumping his packs. This, is of course, what I think, but I've been modeling the VF-25, and I've been combing the net and the raws for images of the legs. There appears to be a single micro-missile exit port on the outside of each leg at the knee joint.

Of course, it could be that the production team simply thought explosions would really cool at that point.

[azrael]

Zinjo

I could have sworn I heard that the SK designed the VF-25 to be slimmer than it's predecessors...

It's a note in the Compendium. http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-25

Graham

Yeh, things have a tendency to get lost around here.

Mr. March

Just so you understand, that was just 1 machine translator I took that text back to then and translating the jumbled English into some coherent sentences gives me a headache to no end. I scrutinize those machine translators much more now and I run them through using a gauntlet of of machine translators (and it gives me a bigger headache). But it's no substitute for someone who actually can read the original Japanese text. If I ran that line through the gauntlet now and tried to formed a sentence, it reads more like this: "Its form is reminiscent of the VF-1 but it can be said that its combat performance makes it a legitimate successor to the VF-19 and VF-22 series." This is using Google, BizLingo (Excite), Yahoo, Livedoor, Fresh-EYE, Dictionary.com, Alta-Vista, and So-net to translate.

そのフォルムは名機ＶＦ－１を思わせるが、戦闘性能はＶＦ－１９およびＶＦ－２２シリーズの正統的な後継機といえる。

It's also something that was on the Info page on the official website. So it may not make it to the official texts for the VF-25 (they have removed a couple posts on that page).

[Graham]

Hmm......there's a big potential difference in meaning between:-

"......a legitimate successor to the VF-19 and VF-22 series."

and

"Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series".

I think we really need a native speaker to clear this up.

Graham

[Graham]

At the risk of getting into another round of speculation furor, I think the VF-25 does not lack internally stored ordinance. Gilliam fires two missiles at the Varja before it kills him, and after dumping his packs. This, is of course, what I think, but I've been modeling the VF-25, and I've been combing the net and the raws for images of the legs. There appears to be a single micro-missile exit port on the outside of each leg at the knee joint.

Of course, it could be that the production team simply thought explosions would really cool at that point.

I'm also of the opinion that the VF-25 does have the capability to carry at least some internal ordnance. however, in episode 1 and the Deculture edition it may actually be carrying larger, what look like medium range missiles, not micro-missiles.

We discussed this back in December when the Deculture edition first aired. Gilliam's VF-25 launches what appears to be a pair of medium range type missiles, not micro-missiles. See the attached screen capture which shows the first of Gilliam's missiles about to strike the red Vajra. From it's size it's definitely too large to be a micro missile.

I'm also curious as to why we have not seen any of the VF-25 armed with wing-mounted missiles yet. The opening animation clearly shows 3 hard points per wing and the early trailers also showed a VF-25, carrying wing-mounted ordnance.

Graham

[Zinjo]

I'm also of the opinion that the VF-25 does have the capability to carry at least some internal ordnance. however, in episode 1 and the Deculture edition it may actually be carrying larger, what look like medium range missiles, not micro-missiles.

We discussed this back in December when the Deculture edition first aired. Gilliam's VF-25 launches what appears to be a pair of medium range type missiles, not micro-missiles. See the attached screen capture which shows the first of Gilliam's missiles about to strike the red Vajra. From it's size it's definitely too large to be a micro missile.

I'm also curious as to why we have not seen any of the VF-25 armed with wing-mounted missiles yet. The opening animation clearly shows 3 hard points per wing and the early trailers also showed a VF-25, carrying wing-mounted ordnance.

Graham

Fair enough, however the weight of 2 mid-range missiles in 2059 could very well be less than that of 12 mini-missiles along with launch carriages in each leg.

Essentially the 2040's era fighters were much more self contained weapons platforms as opposed to the VF-25's bolt on weapons packages. The impression I get is that the VF-25 is primarily an atmospheric/trans-atmospheric fighter with add-on mission packs for whatever environment it is tasked to engage in. Very much old school thinking, however much more cost effective than an all environment self contained variable fighter system. A much more modular approach, with the potential for faster re-deployment time in combat situations.

[Ironside]

Graham,

That is a pretty big missile. It might be able to fit through the possible exit port, but I'm not going to suggest it could. It is a pretty big port. The attached screen has the candidate port circled in red.

On the other hand, I accidentally caught a much better shot of the leg, and it seems there's another launch port candidate, circled in yellow. I'm iffy on that one, as it seems thin, and it looks as though it would be flush the bottom of the wing root in fighter mode.

I'm only mildly confident about the first candidate. Mostly because it seems like a regression to lose internal weapons after the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22. Reading the minds of mecha designers is not one of my skills though.

Zinjo,

I'm inclined to agree. The VF-25 seems designed around a "jack of all trades" mentality. If it is carrying missiles of that size in the legs(a big if), I can't see it holding alot of them. With 6 wing pylons and two bolt on augment systems, ELINT capacity and Mikhail's sniper rifle, it seems like the VF-25 is trying to put the multi back in multi-role.

[Graham]

Good screen capture Ironside.

I'm going to go with the port you have circled in red as the more likely candidate for a micro-missile port, just because it does look more like what we have come to expect a traditional micro-missile port in the Macross universe to look like.

Of course for the large missiles, there is the possibility that they may launch from more tradional bays mounted in the sides of the lower legs, with hinged opening doors, like on the VF-19Kai's legs.

Or as I've suggested before, those two missiles may have just been a continuity screw up.

Graham

[taksraven]

At the risk of getting into another round of speculation furor, I think the VF-25 does not lack internally stored ordinance. Gilliam fires two missiles at the Varja before it kills him, and after dumping his packs. This, is of course, what I think, but I've been modeling the VF-25, and I've been combing the net and the raws for images of the legs. There appears to be a single micro-missile exit port on the outside of each leg at the knee joint.

Of course, it could be that the production team simply thought explosions would really cool at that point.

Thats just the point. It is quite possible that the production team thought that it was a good moment to have the VF-25 appear firing missiles, regardless of how many missiles it can carry. There is no point in getting too worked up about it, even "hard" SF has to struggle to be "realistic". Ultimately, in SF, there will always be some magic.

Taksraven

[Ironside]

Thats just the point. It is quite possible that the production team thought that it was a good moment to have the VF-25 appear firing missiles, regardless of how many missiles it can carry. There is no point in getting too worked up about it, even "hard" SF has to struggle to be "realistic". Ultimately, in SF, there will always be some magic.

Taksraven

I know this one well, being a Star Trek fan, once long ago. The Next Generation Tech Manual provided a wealth of info, but it was all grain of salt from the get go. Because standard policy for Trek production was, "This is the technical info we use for the show. It's canon until we contradict it in the show. A we will probably contradict it because we feel the story should never be held back by the supporting material."

I doubt it's any different in Macross productions. I get the impression that half of Kawamori's fun is reinventing the Variable Fighter. And I can't hold that against him, because if I were him, I'd do the same thing. I also get the feeling that Studio Nue is detail oriented when it comes to fighter design. I think more specifications for VFs exist, but aren't released because they doesn't want to hem themselves in. Release too much info and you are bound to contradict yourself.

Graham,

I was thinking along the same lines as far as hinged doors go. I think there must be hinged doors on the leg, if only to explain were the ventral stub-stabilizer vanishes to in GERWALK and battroid modes.

[Mr March]

azrael

Don't worry about it. You're apparently not the only one who's translator is broken. One of my previous posts apparently translated as a voiciferous debate about the YF-19's non-existent armor system. As a matter of bookeeping, I've been saving copies of everything translated about the VF-25 from the magazines or the official website. My intention was to retain the material for a temporary point-form VF-25 profile for the next update to the Macross Frontier section of my website. Just something that would serve as a summary of the known translated facts about the VF-25, a list that could easily be replaced later when more solid descriptons become available. Information on the VF-25 is so scarce and as you've mentioned, really easy to get lost in the numerous pages of our discussion thread so it would help to have an accumulated list.

I'll have to note the official website translation is suspect information until we can get some translation help.

[Mr March]

On the subject of VF-25 missiles, is it possible the VF-25 was designed specifically not to carry internal ordnance? Dwelling upon the discussion between Zinjozzel and azrael for a moment, Kawamori made the VF-25 slim to accomodate the armor system in all modes. Could it be possible the intention was to fit the missiles externally (inside extra Super/Armor parts) so that more missiles could be loaded? The all-mode deployment of the armored parts means the VF-25 wouldn't have to eject the launchers to change modes, so the possible lack of internal bays could be a design compromise in order to achieve superior capabilities. They could have chose to fit the VF-25 with a few internal micro-missiles but instead built the VF-25 slim so the Armored System could be used in all modes and thus would allow the VF-25 to hold far more missiles than internal bays ever could. Just a thought. Of course, the missiles from Gilliam's VF-25 sans-Super Parts creates a problem, but as others have mentioned it could just be creative license for the scene. The VF-171 seems to indicate a return to external ordnance, so it might be a plausible theory. The ports on the VF-25 legs could be machinery connection panels or reverse/vernier thrusters.

On the other hand, the VF-25 could be similar to the YF-19 in that it would hold both internal ordnance and external ordnance in the Super/Armored parts that have to be opened before the internal missiles can launch. The ports on the VF-25's legs could be micro-missile ports, especially since the ports are in a very similar location to the likes of the VF-5000 and the YF-19/VF-19. This certainly would parallel the "combat performance similar to the VF-19/VF-22" if that translation has any merit.

[Final Vegeta]

As far as I can understand Japanese...

が、

Although

そのフォルムは

VF-25's shape

名機ＶＦ－１を思わせる

makes people think of the VF-1,

戦闘性能は

as for combat ability

といえる。

it can be said

正統的な後継機

the legitimate successor

ＶＦ－１９およびＶＦ－２２シリーズの

of the VF-19 and as well the VF-22 series

Meaning that it is better than both.

FV

[Noyhauser]

I know this one well, being a Star Trek fan, once long ago. The Next Generation Tech Manual provided a wealth of info, but it was all grain of salt from the get go. Because standard policy for Trek production was, "This is the technical info we use for the show. It's canon until we contradict it in the show. A we will probably contradict it because we feel the story should never be held back by the supporting material."

I doubt it's any different in Macross productions. I get the impression that half of Kawamori's fun is reinventing the Variable Fighter. And I can't hold that against him, because if I were him, I'd do the same thing. I also get the feeling that Studio Nue is detail oriented when it comes to fighter design. I think more specifications for VFs exist, but aren't released because they doesn't want to hem themselves in. Release too much info and you are bound to contradict yourself.

I don't think that Kawamori "reinventing" the Valkyrie is inherently unrealistic. I've pointed this out in here but I think he's got a more realistic idea about aircraft procurement than in most SF. Major replacement programs for aircraft seem to emerge every 10 years (from 2010 to 2040) in the Macross universe, then it seems that there isn't a major program between 2040 and 2056. That would make sense if;

#1 The UNG seems to be going through some sort of economic slowdown or stagnation (which seems to be the case)

#2 Project Supernova really pushed the boundaries of aerospace design, leaving no reason to build a new major superiority fighter for quite some time.

Thats actually something that was true for the real aircraft manufacturing industries in the 1970s, 80s and even into the 1990s. The F-15/F-16 combo stood (and still does) sit as the main fighters for the United States, when in the thirty years previous fighters were replaced every five to 10 years.

[Ironside]

I don't think that Kawamori "reinventing" the Valkyrie is inherently unrealistic. I've pointed this out in here but I think he's got a more realistic idea about aircraft procurement than in most SF. Major replacement programs for aircraft seem to emerge every 10 years (from 2010 to 2040) in the Macross universe, then it seems that there isn't a major program between 2040 and 2056. That would make sense if;

#1 The UNG seems to be going through some sort of economic slowdown or stagnation (which seems to be the case)

#2 Project Supernova really pushed the boundaries of aerospace design, leaving no reason to build a new major superiority fighter for quite some time.

Thats actually something that was true for the real aircraft manufacturing industries in the 1970s, 80s and even into the 1990s. The F-15/F-16 combo stood (and still does) sit as the main fighters for the United States, when in the thirty years previous fighters were replaced every five to 10 years.

I don't think it's unrealistic either. I meant reinventing, as in tinkering with his designs. I think his tinkering makes it inherently impossible to know exactly what any VF is capable of. It's not a complaint, or a flaw. It's a bonus feature. Fans want to be surprised by cool stuff, and speculate on what might be in store. It's all for the good.

Mr. March

I agree it's very possible that VF-25 has no internal missiles. I think the reasoning that it is intentionally kept slim to allow for flexible add-on modules is well in line with Zinjo's suggestion that I called "jack of all trades" mentality. Historically, Macross armor components have the next thing to disposable. We often see pilots dumping armor and packs. It follows that the launch systems in the armor are cheaper to build than those in the Fighters themselves. The Fighter systems are meant to be maintained and last the life of the fighter (in a way. I don't mean to imply that the internal launchers built into fighter at the factor are the same launchers, component for component, 10 years later...only that they have to last a while), where as FAST pack launchers might have a life expectancy as short as one mission.

Moving the launch systems to wing pylons, and Armor packs could result in a leaner, simpler and cheaper weapon system. Designing a fighter that is really add-on centric could lead to a vastly more flexible weapon.

I still think there are missiles internal, but there are good and logical reasons for all of the VF-25's missile power to be external.

[Zinjo]

One thing not considered, is "Could Gilliam have fired a couple of missiles from the fast packs (off camera) that ultimately homed in on the Vajra lobster as he approached?"

It seems a bit weak and reaching, but I thought I'd toss it out there...

[Zinjo]

#1 The UNG seems to be going through some sort of economic slowdown or stagnation (which seems to be the case)

#2 Project Supernova really pushed the boundaries of aerospace design, leaving no reason to build a new major superiority fighter for quite some time.

Thats actually something that was true for the real aircraft manufacturing industries in the 1970s, 80s and even into the 1990s. The F-15/F-16 combo stood (and still does) sit as the main fighters for the United States, when in the thirty years previous fighters were replaced every five to 10 years.

Well we don't know for sure if there was economic stagnation or if there was a change in the political landscape of the universe. The UN Spacy lasted for 40 years (at least) and then within a decade of 2050, we see a NUNS organization come on the scene, with no initial reason. If all was happy in the home, why reform an effective military organization of 40+ years?

Supernova as well as the Ghost X9 project certainly pushed the envelope of design, however it appears with the VF-25, the needs of the military have changed to a more utilitarian requirement as opposed to bleeding edge weapons systems. It gives me a sense of building a fighter system bred for large scale war (similar to the VF-1) rather than testing the boundaries of what is possible with variable fighter aircraft design.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Ironside

Cost effectiveness is a good point. It would be easier and cheaper to maintain external launch systems than internal ones, I would think anyway. And with the SMS being a "civilian" organization it makes sense that cost effectiveness would become more important to the SMS than it is in a government funded military where budgetary excess is more easily accepted/expected. Also, an all-mode Full Armor system would also enhance the deployment and operational usefullness of the system, allowing the VF-25 to get more out of it's "disposable" Super/Armor systems than traditional Valkyries.

Zinjury

I like that thought! The VF-25 does almost seem like a return to the wartime sensibility of the VF-1. It could be that variable fighter design has reached a plateau and is now going through a consolidation of all previous era designs and technology. The VF-25 is cutting edge to be sure and it may have one or two new technologies itself. But perhaps it is as you suggest and the VF-25 is more a nuts-and-bolts fighter that prioritizes evolutionary capabilities rather than innovative fringe technologies found in previous era developmental testbed Valkyries like the YF-19/VF-19 and YF-21/VF-22 series.

[grss1982]

Zinjo,

I'm inclined to agree. The VF-25 seems designed around a "jack of all trades" mentality. If it is carrying missiles of that size in the legs(a big if), I can't see it holding alot of them. With 6 wing pylons and two bolt on augment systems, ELINT capacity and Mikhail's sniper rifle,it seems like the VF-25 is trying to put the multi back in multi-role.

I totally agree.

So if that was the case, it would be possible for us to still see the VF-19 and and the VF-22 in MF thrust into the role of specialized fighters, then?

IIRC, weren't the VF-19 and VF-22 at one point in time in the Macross Universe used as Special Forces-type fighters/Specialized Fighters especially with their use of those darn fold packs?

BTW, is that a Shield I see on the left arm of the VF-25? Looks kinda small though to be of any use.

Edited April 22, 2008 by grss1982

[wolfx]

I totally agree.

So if that was the case, it would be possible for us to still see the VF-19 and and the VF-22 in MF thrust into the role of specialized fighters, then?

IIRC, weren't the VF-19 and VF-22 at one point in time in the Macross Universe used as Special Forces-type fighters/Specialized Fighters especially with their use of those darn fold packs?

BTW, is that a Shield I see on the left arm of the VF-25? Looks kinda small though to be of any use.

Yes its a shield. And yeah it seems smaller than the ones on the VF-11 and VF-19, and those were small to begin with.

[Noyhauser]

Well we don't know for sure if there was economic stagnation or if there was a change in the political landscape of the universe. The UN Spacy lasted for 40 years (at least) and then within a decade of 2050, we see a NUNS organization come on the scene, with no initial reason. If all was happy in the home, why reform an effective military organization of 40+ years?

Well we do have indications that both are the case, and they don't have to be mutually exclusive. The development of cheaper fighters for production (VF-4 vs VF-5000) is one sign of economic problems. Its quite possible as the financial position of the UEG decrease it starts increasing the taxation on colonies. That taxation for "protection" by UNSPACY, or the use of the galactic network, which might be a non opt out able. Yet some colonies might feel that the assessment is not fair, particularly if they feel they don't need the protection. That chafe might spill out to open rebellion. I'm completely extrapolating here but I don't see how this can't be realistic.

In any case, Mac Plus makes clear that rebellions are occurring, first by actively showing such a rebellion in its opening scenes, and then as a reasoning behind the implementation of Operation Supernova. Its stated that the project Supernova is not intended for the conventional role of taking down large scale Zentredi fleets, but instead penetrate high value targets and kill them without using reaction weaponry which might cause a political incident.

This is reemphasized in digital mission VFX2 when a terrorist group almost overthrows the United Earth Government. I think traditional threats like the Zentredi don't really scare the UEG anymore. As macross 7 seems to indicate, UN Spacy have a practiced routine against them, where they can face massive numerical inferiority and come out on top. All UN Spacy ships are equipped with reaction weaponry which seem to be far more powerful than previous generations.

Supernova as well as the Ghost X9 project certainly pushed the envelope of design, however it appears with the VF-25, the needs of the military have changed to a more utilitarian requirement as opposed to bleeding edge weapons systems. It gives me a sense of building a fighter system bred for large scale war (similar to the VF-1) rather than testing the boundaries of what is possible with variable fighter aircraft design.

I think so. This would also help reinforce my point about economic stagnation. This brings me to another theory, that the NUNS see SMS and private military providers as a cheaper way to defend against major threats. Regular NUNS forces deal with the common threats to colonization missions like Zentreadi fleets, and train purely for those missions. Specialized units like SMS are brought in when special threats emerge.

[Zinjo]

Well we do have indications that both are the case, and they don't have to be mutually exclusive. The development of cheaper fighters for production (VF-4 vs VF-5000) is one sign of economic problems. Its quite possible as the financial position of the UEG decrease it starts increasing the taxation on colonies. That taxation for "protection" by UNSPACY, or the use of the galactic network, which might be a non opt out able. Yet some colonies might feel that the assessment is not fair, particularly if they feel they don't need the protection. That chafe might spill out to open rebellion. I'm completely extrapolating here but I don't see how this can't be realistic.

In any case, Mac Plus makes clear that rebellions are occurring, first by actively showing such a rebellion in its opening scenes, and then as a reasoning behind the implementation of Operation Supernova. Its stated that the project Supernova is not intended for the conventional role of taking down large scale Zentredi fleets, but instead penetrate high value targets and kill them without using reaction weaponry which might cause a political incident

Who is to say that the economic woes of the UNG were not caused by colonial independence movements? When you get a pay cut you can't live at the same standards as you had before. It appears that seceding worlds were considered rebels, however it is possible that over time if the movement becomes wide spread the UNG would have to accept the independence of colony worlds as they wouldn't have enough resources to "enforce" the status quo on all of them. Each world carried a certain amount of resources they'd contribute to the treasury and with that gone, the UNG would be weakened financially.

This is reemphasized in digital mission VFX2 when a terrorist group almost overthrows the United Earth Government. I think traditional threats like the Zentredi don't really scare the UEG anymore. As macross 7 seems to indicate, UN Spacy have a practiced routine against them, where they can face massive numerical inferiority and come out on top. All UN Spacy ships are equipped with reaction weaponry which seem to be far more powerful than previous generations.

Just for the record, THAT game premise is dodgy in my opinion. A rebel group or a colony based take over attempt is more plausible to me. Now if the UNG is splintered by colony separations, then the need for a low cost, low maintenance, quickly built fighter system would be needed to build up the stellar naval forces. If anything VFX2 would demonstrate to the UNG that they were vulnerable internally and needed to protect themselves.

It almost seems that the VF-25 is akin to the cold war arms race. Build up as much as you can as powerful as you can in preparation for a "possible" all out war. Then you have the Military Industrial Complex on both sides getting rich off of their paranoia...

Just a speculation of course.

[Mr March]

I also don't think the Zentradi Battle Suits in Macross Plus were ever identified as anything other than Zentradi. We don't know if they are new units built by cultured Zentradi of the UNG sphere or if the suits are old technology from the ancient Zentradi fleets that were only then encountered in Macross Plus by the UN Spacy.

[wolfx]

I wanna discuss the dagger Ozma uses and the possiblity that it might be a PPB on a dagger. Well 1stly, i have to ask, what's the purpose of a PPB punch? A PPB i suppose protects the manipulator/hand when its punching an object, as well as forming a "denser" material impacting on a less dense object.

Best analogy i can think of, if you tried to punch a brick wall with your barehands, you're gonna get a bloody fist with wall probably undamaged. But if you had a metal gauntlet and assuming you had the strength, your hands would be fine and you at least get to damage the brick wall rather than get a bloody fist.

So with that in mind, if the dagger used by Ozma was a PPB dagger, would it work? A PPB punch is more of impact damage whereas a dagger is piercing damage. I think a PPB on a dagger is quite pointless. Would covering a dagger with stronger material/shield make it better as a penetrating weapon? Because if my interpretation of a PPB is correct, I don't think it works like a beam saber.

[Mark Nguyen]

Well, that's the reason you use a sword in the first place - it's all about area. The tip of the blade, in a thrust vs. a punch, will have the same force behind it as a fist, but distributed over a much smaller area, thus being far stronger. This is why chain mail is great against people trying to bludgeon you with something, but why it's basically useless against someone trying to stab you.

I've always thought that the PPB doesn't really INCREASE the amount of damage someone would inflict, but rather it more easily protect the hands/arms of the Valkyrie equipped with it. Armored or not, a strong enough punch could shatter the machine's hands - so a PPB punch allows the machine to throw a much stronger punch without the user being scared of breaking the articulation underneath. For the knife, it's possible that PPB technology has been refined to the point where the stabbing point of the knife is effectively really, really small - again, increasing the damage at the impact point by reducing the impact area. Since regular bullets were having no real effect, the knife might apply the required force to finally pierce the soft parts in the armor of the red.

Mark

[Mr March]

Well, like I've commented on the subject of Macross Plus before, I've never understood the fan interpretation that the YF-19 and YF-21 somehow needed the pin-point barrier to punch each other "safely." I'm sure the manipulators are just as powerful and robust as those on the VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-17 or all the other non-PPB-equipped mecha. The Valkyries are all military machines after all so the manipulators would be specifically designed for combat and of course, they are already part of the Energy Converting Armor system. IMO, they wouldn't be "weak hands! weak hands!"

Having said that, I'm not sure what the heck that knife is. If the VF-25 knife is an entirely new and exotic technology for Macross, it could be anything or it may be something more traditional the vibroblade or monofilament. If the VF-25 knife is an established OverTechnology, it could very well be some kind of pin-point barrier shrouded weapon. We know the super dimension energy of the pin-point barrier/full barrier system can be used offensively (with usually disasterous results for both friend and foe) but perhaps on a smaller, more limited scale it can be utilized safely as a physical weapon.

I also had the thought that the knife could be a variation on Energy Converting Armor. The knife could be utilizing a power source to strengthen or "charge" the blade to such a degree that the blade material becomes strong enough to cut through virtually any Valkyire armor and even something as strong as the Vajra. An Energy Converting Blade if you will.

[ChronoReverse]

I don't think it's a matter of punching safely but rather being able to punch even harder. There's some validity in assuming that the PPB helps protect the fist structure from impact damage.

[s001]

Don't you guys think that cable on Mikhail's valkyrie is completely unnecesary?

[ChronoReverse]

Well, if it's zero-G, you need two hands to operate the sniper gun and you need stability... then it makes sense.

[s001]

I don't know... I think the trusters should give the valk enough stability to need a cable.

Edited April 22, 2008 by s001

[Macross007]

I don't know... I think the trusters should give the valk enough stability to need a cable.

He used the cable so he did NOT need to control the trusters. Like that, he was only concentrated on his sniping skills. Using the trusters require constant readjustments unlike the cable.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Macross007

[wolfx]

Well, like I've commented on the subject of Macross Plus before, I've never understood the fan interpretation that the YF-19 and YF-21 somehow needed the pin-point barrier to punch each other "safely." I'm sure the manipulators are just as powerful and robust as those on the VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, VF-17 or all the other non-PPB-equipped mecha. The Valkyries are all military machines after all so the manipulators would be specifically designed for combat and of course, they are already part of the Energy Converting Armor system. IMO, they wouldn't be "weak hands! weak hands!"

For me the protection is 2ndary, not the main reason. If i punched someone with my bare fist compared to punching with a brass knuckle, the difference in effects are quite obvious. That's how I've always regarded a PPB punch...the mecha version of a brass knuckle. That said, i'm not so sure if that will work with a dagger for extra penetration. But your explanations would work too i suppose.

[Kelsain]

Taking a break from knives, cables, and thrust/mass ratios...

Has anyone else noticed something that's been MISSING since episode 1? Something that was almost uniformly reviled?

I speak, of course, about the green energy arc during the 25's transformation.

It just hit me on my last viewing - and sure enough - no green lights, except for that first transformation of Ozma's fighter. (It is still present in the broadcast version of Ep1) I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned before! Most likely it's b/c the transformations just seem right now, where before, they definitely seemed wrong.

[mikeszekely]

He used the cable so he did NOT need to control the trusters. Like that, he was only concentrated on his sniping skills. Using the trusters require constant readjustments unlike the cable.

Constant readjustments, yes. Constant MANUAL adjustments, though? I'd have a hard time believing that, since we've had flight control computers with the main purpose of making numerous tiny adjustments to planes' flight control surfaces so that pilots can keep less-than-aerodynamic planes like the F-117 in the air since at least the late 80's.

Honestly, if Mikhail's VF is dependent on standing on something to be stable enough to fire its sniper rifle, that kind of limits its role. Might as well be a Destroid.

[The_WOZ]

Maybe the gun's recoil is so powerfull that it requires quite a lot of thrust to compensate; and that will give away the sniper position.