Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[Ironside]

The VF-171 pilots are using a vintage of the classic flight suit.

[Zinjo]

The VF-171 pilots are using a vintage of the classic flight suit.

True, the SMS are using a derivative of what was used in VF-X2.

[Mr March]

Ironside

You are in error and continue to be so. You have damned my use of official figures and you perpetuate this position. I've gone through every effort to distinguish where official ends and speculation begins in my posts, which is in direct contrast to your posts which continually attempt to merge them. Your speculations are impossible to prove or disprove (by yourself most of all) as are the specualtions of any other fan (myself included). So for the last time, stop attempting to force others to play by your own fan-made rules by demanding they solve your unprovable speculation.

I used official numbers to say the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons because that's all we have. My speculation BEYOND that (such as when I add a speculative 5.25 tons) is as debatable as any fan theory; your's, mine, the dog's on the corner. I believe my fan speculation is closer to the truth, but that's opinion, nothing more.

As for debate, that's going nowhere. You continue to suggest the official numbers are only the lower spectrum of a fan-invented low/high weight range you've arbitrarily invented. To such refusal to abide by canon there can be no other response but to say it's wrong.

As for the misconception, there is no excuse for dwelling upon it. The misconception has since been acknowledged, resolved, my original point proved, my original observation that the VF-25 can fly in gravity proved and all made clear for those who previously in doubt. Further fixation on this misunderstanding is motive driven, an attempt to dismiss my entire point that the VF-25 can fly, a position you profess to share. All I can say from this point forward is ignoring this particular point will be met with similar response.

[sketchley]

It flies. Does anything else matter?

(Yes, I like stats as much as the next stats fiend. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that we saw it fly in the anime.)

[Master Dex]

You know guys... perhaps we can just say the VF-25 Armored can fly in gravity, because after all this we know it surely can... and just leave it at that. Lets stop this battle, it is getting old. You can always agree to disagree. In the end this debate serves nothing since we do know the armored VF-25 can fly in gravity, whether by the science of you two or the fact that it did it in the show anyway. I'm just trying to resolve this issue as peacefully as possible.

Edit: Well Sketchley seems to have beat me to it, we basically said the same thing.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Master Dex

[Mr March]

Quite right. I suppose nothing else does matter.

[Zinjo]

REPULSOR LIFTS!!! No wait, wrong franchise

Grav control generators, superior thrust capacity, anime magic...please somebody pick one...... PULEESE...

[Duke Togo]

It flies. Does anything else matter?

(Yes, I like stats as much as the next stats fiend. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that we saw it fly in the anime.)

QFT. Its a cartoon, its not real.

[azrael]

anime magic...please somebody pick one...... PULEESE...

Fine. It's frakin anime magic. End of debate. You happy now?

[Ironside]

It flies. Does anything else matter?

(Yes, I like stats as much as the next stats fiend. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that we saw it fly in the anime.)

You know guys... perhaps we can just say the VF-25 Armored can fly in gravity, because after all this we know it surely can... and just leave it at that. Lets stop this battle, it is getting old. You can always agree to disagree. In the end this debate serves nothing since we do know the armored VF-25 can fly in gravity, whether by the science of you two or the fact that it did it in the show anyway. I'm just trying to resolve this issue as peacefully as possible.

Edit: Well Sketchley seems to have beat me to it, we basically said the same thing.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. It seems we agreed from the beginning. I never said it couldn't fly. I set out to prove that it is reasonable to think it could. Any impression that we are having a real disagreement about the fighter's ability to fly was solely created by March. I don't begrudge anyone the impression that I might have been saying it could not fly. My posts are long and detailed (like this one), and causal readers had no reason to slog through them. Mr. March, however doesn't have that excuse. He choose to vigorously attack them several times. He should have double checked them by now.

It flies. We've both independently proven that it should fly with a high degree of mobility. As Sketchley points out, nothing else matters. I have some ideas as to why he thinks there is something worth attacking in my posts, but there's no point in discussing them here. If any of my ideas are correct I'll just have to ignore March's posts, which would be a pity, because he's a smart fellow and of strong opinion. I love a good debate. I'm not much for getting mean about it, however.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was about to erupt in flaming attacks. It's not my bag. But enough of this navel gazing. If I haven't made myself clear now, nothing I do ever will. As corny and fake as this will sound, I sincerely apologize for wasting so much forum space on this subject.

True, the SMS are using a derivative of what was used in VF-X2.

I kinda see the connection, but uggh. That VF-X2 suit is ugly. Way too steampunk. It's more like a real space suit, with locking collars at the bicep and ankle, but that doesn't strike me as a good thing. As for the VF-25 suit...I don't dislike it anymore. I did to start. I'm a fan of Plus suit, but the -25 helmet is growing on me.

[Gui]

Fine. It's frakin anime magic. End of debate. You happy now?

All the more as mid-way into the series, the less fast unit will be upgraded with more powerful engines which will allow it to surpass the other, and the other way around a bunch of episodes later

Or something like that...

[Kronnang Dunn]

You know guys... perhaps we can just say the VF-25 Armored can fly in gravity, because after all this we know it surely can... and just leave it at that. Lets stop this battle, it is getting old. You can always agree to disagree. In the end this debate serves nothing since we do know the armored VF-25 can fly in gravity, whether by the science of you two or the fact that it did it in the show anyway. I'm just trying to resolve this issue as peacefully as possible.

Hehehe, same here. However, I should add something I noticed in the first episode. Gilliam got rid of his armor to reach the Vajra faster... So, I conclude that while the Armored VF-25 can fly in gravity it must make the fighter slower...

Now some Vajra comments...

I re-watched Macross: Zero some days ago & I found several connections between the "Vajra mecha" & the "Birdman"...

First, the "spiral" symbols.

Second, the overall destructive power & speed of the "mecha" (however, it is described as a life form in the official site).

Three, the mecha's organic/biomechanical nature... (however, the Birdman seemed like a sentient intelligent machine, while all the Vajra behave more like a pack of animals... The Wardogs of the Protoculture perhaps?).

Fourth, their use. The Birdman seemed to be programmed to attack/destroy hostile or belligerent humans. Perhaps the Vajra were created by the Protoculture to attack any beings that resemble the Zentradi? Maybe they are keeping anything from entering Protoculture Space (The Center of the Galaxy?).

Fifth, the way they were stopped. If u remember Zero, the Birdman was found with its head cut off. Ozma stopped the first large Vajra stabbing its head (chopped it off in the manga)...

Edited April 19, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Mr March]

Petty parting shots notwithstanding, I'm curious about the difference between the Sniper Gun Pod and the Standard Gun Pod. Is the Sniper Gun Pod a ballistic weapon like the others or is it a variant of the beam weapons. It could simply be a ballistic gun with a much higher muzzle velocity and other technologies at work. I'm getting the impression from watching episode two that the Sniper Gun Pod is ballistic, but I suppose the real question is what does the gun fire and how? The gun could be like the M82 Barret, a sniper/anti-materiel rifle. But whereas on a human sized scale the M82 would be used against light armor vehicles, the sniper gun pod would be a scaled-up, mecha-sized version of an anti-materiel gun that would find use against targets like Full Armor mecha, heavy valkyries (such as attacking a VB-6 Konig) or even light warships like Bolognese Class Stealth Frigate and what not.

The only other parallel I can see with established Macross canon would be the XS-06 Long-Range High-Piercing-Round Gun Pod for the VF-11 Protect Armor. Perhaps the Sniper Gun Pod is a similar albeit much more compact version of this gun that doesn't fire as fast. Damn, I want stats on some of this stuff so bad

Edited April 19, 2008 by Mr March

[Holocause]

Seeing Raw Ep3... I'm pretty much convinced that the sniper weapon is indeed projectile based. Its unclear what the propellant is wether it be magnetized particles (i.e. Railgun) or a form of gunpowder or whatever accelerant but the Episode did show a slug moving at matrix style visuals towards the Vajra. I highly doubt it was a beam weapon of sorts seing as how the hole it created was far larger than the slug.

But as I type this I'm now leaning towards it being gunpowder or accelrant based as opposed to a railgun... for the sake that the weapon is Single shot/ semi-auto. A reason for such being that it has to compensate for recoil created by the propulsion of the slug, and probably the dissipation of heat from the combustion. If it was a railgun using magnetics propulsion, you wouldn't need a pause in between shots as there is no friction in space and no recoil created since there is no combustion as the slug is simply being pushed by the weapon through magnets.

But then this is all based on Hard Sci-Fi... which is still Sci-Fi as in Fiction so who really knows whats in the head of Kawamori... its still looks cool though.

[Awacs]

But as I type this I'm now leaning towards it being gunpowder or accelrant based as opposed to a railgun... for the sake that the weapon is Single shot/ semi-auto. A reason for such being that it has to compensate for recoil created by the propulsion of the slug, and probably the dissipation of heat from the combustion. If it was a railgun using magnetics propulsion, you wouldn't need a pause in between shots as there is no friction in space and no recoil created since there is no combustion as the slug is simply being pushed by the weapon through magnets.

True, but if the weapon was built around a capacitor based power system you would be restricted by the charged/discharge cycle time on the capacitors. The VF-25 would be able to supply power to the weapon fairly readily, it has a fusion reactor after all, but you would still be limited by the cycle time of the weapons power accumulation system.

Karl

[Zinjo]

I am leaning toward a DEW personally. If one looked closely at the frames, it exit wound was a vaporized "hole" similar to that created by the Lobster Vajra's back cannon on the capital ships.

I tend to wonder if it is some sort of micronized buster/macross cannon or high energy plasma thrower. It doesn't do devastating destruction, but is capable of doing critical damage to whater it hits.

[TehPW]

Ironside

You are in error and continue to.... similar responses about flying space pigs.

*yahn* about as informative to here like my spat with Sketchy (/me pees on any retort)

My two cents...

VF-25 looks awesome. period. if ya'll want to argue statistics like Star Trek NCC's numbers... meh. I am curious about many things (does it have PBB? does the various gun pods availible have reload capability? how many VF-171 pilots safely ejected in Ep.01. Can Ranka get sighted for animal abuse for her phone?)

stuff like that.

[ChronoReverse]

Interesting, the Red is vulnerable to a headshot from the sniper gun. We already knew it was strong enough to puncture the Whites but it could take out the face area of the Reds too.

Too bad the Red can operate headless XD.

I'm thinking that it's likely to be a projectile based weapon too but the glow gives me some doubts. Maybe it's some kinda of encapsulated plasma shell.

[azrael]

Interesting, the Red is vulnerable to a headshot from the sniper gun. We already knew it was strong enough to puncture the Whites but it could take out the face area of the Reds too.

Too bad the Red can operate headless XD.

I'm thinking that it's likely to be a projectile based weapon too but the glow gives me some doubts. Maybe it's some kinda of encapsulated plasma shell.

Normally, there's less armor on the head. Although the main body is a bigger target, it may have more armor.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, the actual red areas seem to be heavy armour. Mikhail's shot seemed to go through the whitish face area. Then again part of the red part got vaped too (lighter armour as you say in the head).

It's also worth noting that the sniper shot didn't decapitate the Red but only put a hole in the head. Yet the head came off?

Edited April 20, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[sketchley]

It looked like the shot vaporized the parts of the head inside the armour, along with the neck, and a good portion of the head armour. Perhaps the bullet exploded into plasma? Or some other high heat reaction caused by a chemical reaction with the blood/whatever the Vajra are made out of?

[Mr March]

hehehe

Holocause

Yeah, I've seen the RAW of 3, but that's what actually what inspired me to ask the question. I felt the Sniper Gun Pod was ballistic based on episode 2, but then when I saw episode 3 it skewed my perception toward the possibility the gun is a beam weapon. I agree that some aspects of Mikhail's shots make the weapon feel ballistic, but they also open the possibility for a beam weapon.

In particular, the way the sniper gun pod damages the red Vajra in episode 3 could very likely be heat-induced melting/evaporating from a directed energy weapon. We've seen similar effects in Macross before, from the SDF-1 Macross super dimension energy guns and Zentradi warship heavy converging energy beam cannons. The Meltran gunboat melting the main guns of the SDF-1 in DYRL comes to mind. We've also seen similar effects of damage from the beam cannons on the YF-19 Heavy Weapons Cluster when it destroys the Destroid Monster.

I'm not sure what to make of that gun this early in the series.

Zinjizzel

Yeah, the nature of the damage is really throwing me off. Like I described above, the gun felt so kinetic at first, but that damage really looks like a melting/evaporation from a very hot energy beam. Do we ever seen any kind of shell casings being expelled from the gun when it fires?

ChronoReverse

Yeah, you beat me too it. I noticed the sniper gun shot passed through everything on the Vajra, head and main body armor alike. I'm really torn on this one. It could either be a really high speed rail gun or a beam weapon. Whatever it is, it's more powerful than all the standard weapons on a regular Valkyrie.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Mr March

[mechaninac]

...If it was a railgun using magnetics propulsion, you wouldn't need a pause in between shots as there is no friction in space and no recoil created since there is no combustion as the slug is simply being pushed by the weapon through magnets.

But then this is all based on Hard Sci-Fi... which is still Sci-Fi as in Fiction so who really knows whats in the head of Kawamori... its still looks cool though.

Yes and no. By throwing a slug out the muzzle of the sniper gun the FV-25 is expelling mass and would receive a recoil (back-wards push) equal and opposite to the energy imparted to the bullet by either magnetic or chemical means. If the VF is firmly standing on solid ground within a gravity well, this recoil would be minimal, but in space you'd need to exert some force to counteract the momentum of the projectile. The thing does look cool, and is yet one more variant to be milked in the forthcoming toy lines.

[Zinjo]

Zinjizzel

Yeah, the nature of the damage is really throwing me off. Like I described above, the gun felt so kinetic at first, but that damage really looks like a melting/evaporation from a very hot energy beam. Do we ever seen any kind of shell casings being expelled from the gun when it fires?

Well I won't rule out a rail gun, since theoretically if the projectile is fired at sufficient speed it would become a bolt of plasma, thus giving a similar affect.

[sketchley]

Rail guns exist in Macross; on the VB-6. The flashy shooting effect they have is akin to that of the SDF-1's main cannon - glowing coming out of the cannons along with some electric arcs before the cannons fire. Which is quite different from the sharpshooter gun pod in Macross F.

As Kawamori Shouji did the storyboarding for that sequence in the opening animation of VF-X2, I tend to interpret that as how a rail cannon firing looks like in Macross. Though, I add the grain of salt of since they are on the VB-6, the effects have been embellished to make it look that much more powerful.

Edited April 20, 2008 by sketchley

[Graham]

I'm going to go with rail gun for the moment, or possible some sort of plasma cannon.

Graham

[Graham]

We know the -25 has performance similar to the VF-19.

Err..........no we don't.

While I don't want to re-ignite the whole "Armored VF-25 can/can't fly in an atmosphere" arguement, I do feel I need to say say that I personally disagree with the above quoted statement. As, as far as I know and I'm open to being corrected, there is nothing officially published or nothing shown so far in the anime to back up this statement.

At the momen't about the only official hard data we have about the VF-25 are it's height, length and wingspan.

Ironside, I freely admit I am arguing semantics here, but if you had written "I think the VF-25 has performance similar to the VF-19", I wouldn't be writting this post.

For all we know, the VF-25 may be as much of an improvement performance-wise over the VF-19 as the VF-19 was over the VF-11.

Until we get some hard stats from Kawamori, anything else is just pure fan-based supposition, nothing more, nothing less and should not be presented as fact.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that the VF-25 with have around 30%-40% higher thrust than the VF-19 and be of a similar weight, or even slightly lighter without Super or Armored Packs, thus likely having a far higher thrust to weight ratio. Again, just pure guesswork on my part. Heck for all we know it may even have some sort of gravity control system, inertial cancelling system and other fancy new tech.

Graham

[wolfx]

Hehehe, same here. However, I should add something I noticed in the first episode. Gilliam got rid of his armor to reach the Vajra faster... So, I conclude that while the Armored VF-25 can fly in gravity it must make the fighter slower...

Not a matter of fast or slow but more like more drag and less aerodynamic in athmosphere thus not so maneuverable.

[Mr March]

Zinjab

That could very well be. I noticed the animation almost looks like there is some sort of white hot object at the front on the "beam." Of course, then we can look at it again from either viewpoint; is this small white hot object a projectile or is it energy?

sketchley

I remember a while back there was a discussion about rail guns in Macross and someone noted the original SDF-1 Macross has rail guns. Also, the way the "high speed cannons" on the Destroid Defender are described (complete with a muzzle velocity of 3,300 meters per second) sounds like a rail gun. And of course as you mentioned, the rail guns on the VB-6 Konig.

Graham

I remember azrael had provided some translated facts for us from one of the magazines and the VF-25 was said to have "Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series." I suppose "combat performance" can be a relatively generic term that could mean speed and maneuverability in combat or it could just as easily refer to defense/offensive systems and firepower. Anyway, I think that's what most fans are using as reference for that particular point, myself included. Is this official or is it unofficial?

Edited April 20, 2008 by Mr March

[Valkyrie addict]

you guys analyze things too much...all i wonder if the armor will be too heavy for a model or toy to stand and fall on it's back, hahahaha

[Mr March]

I know, but it's just too much fun not to geek out, especially when you're enjoying the series so much. Besides, I have to write profiles for the Macross Mecha Manual, so call it an occupational hazard

[Graham]

Graham

I remember azrael had provided some translated facts for us from one of the magazines and the VF-25 was said to have "Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series." I suppose "combat performance" can be a relatively generic term that could mean speed and maneuverability in combat or it could just as easily refer to defense/offensive systems and firepower. Anyway, I think that's what most fans are using as reference for that particular point, myself included. Is this official or is it unofficial?

I've just been searching through azrael's posts, but haven't been able to find anything so far about the VF-25 having equivalent performance to the VF-19 and VF-22. Mind you, I only searched back through 10 pages of his posts.

I did however find this translation of a magazine article by MWer Cyde01: -

read all the text but there's really not a lot of new info. a lot of it was written to make it sound like it was speculation. please don't make me translate it all, as there really isn't that much that's new.

new things that i noticed:

vf-25 dimensions in fighter mode: length 18.72m width (with wings fully extended) 15.5m height (not including landing gear?) 4.03m my bad if this is not new info.

vf-25 battroid: height including lasers: 15.59m

armored vf-25 is just as fast as standard vf-25, but substantially slower than vf-25 fp (as seen when gilliam out ran ozma back to the dome).

the yf-19 and yf-21 reached a certain limit where they couldn't go any faster or risk endangering the pilot (guld in mac plus). however, the vf-25 is even faster, which must mean that some new technology exists to make this possible. it is also safe to assume that there are many other new and as yet unrevealed technologies (thanks for nothing mag).

and

actually, it says a lot more than that but you're right about the no news part.

"heavy armor attachment system designed to expand weapons capability, designed for the VF-25. it has overcome the main weakness of the vf-1's armor system, which was limited to battroid mode. it is able to transform and fly with the armored parts still attached. further details unknown."

vf-25 caption:

"next generation variable fighter being developed to replace NUNS' VF-171. in keeping with all the previous series, it transforms into 3 different modes depending on the situation. weapons that can be confirmed include machine gun(s), beam cannons, machine gun lasers, and a newly designed gunpod. as it is a top secret unit under development, details are unknown. one of it's unique features is it's ability to link with a pilot wearing the ex-gear exoskeleton suit."

While I think this should still be treated as speculation, the key sentence above is:

"the yf-19 and yf-21 reached a certain limit where they couldn't go any faster or risk endangering the pilot (guld in mac plus). however, the vf-25 is even faster, which must mean that some new technology exists to make this possible. it is also safe to assume that there are many other new and as yet unrevealed technologies".

Graham

[Mr March]

Well, the two sources could still work together. If we take "combat performance" to mean offensive/defensive systems (firepower, armor, etc) then it could merge nicely with the "VF-25 is even faster" quote. So we have a VF-25 that's as good in combat as the VF-19/VF-22 series but is much faster than those two fighters.

I've found azrael's post. It's not from a magazine (my mistake), it's from the official website:

Post #337, page 17 (by azrael)

New info on the VF-25 from official site (from the naming contest):

- The VF-25 is currently undergoing performance evaluations done by S.M.S..

- Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series.

- The VF-25 transformation system allows for a smoother and quicker transition from Fighter->GERWALK->Battroid than in previous generations.

- The VF-25 is very customizable according to mission-specifics and pilot preference.

- The Full-Armor system improves armaments. The Super-packs improves maneuvering performance.

- (Already mentioned) The VF-1 Full-Armor system was restricted to Battroid use but the VF-25's does not carry this restriction.

- Currently, the VF-25's Full-Armor system is limited to S.M.S. squadron leader-use.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Mr March

[Graham]

Interesting. I don't recall seeing that post from azrael before.

Graham

[Zinjo]

I could have sworn I heard that the SK designed the VF-25 to be slimmer than it's predecessors to accomodate the FAST Packs and Armor Packs. With the apparent "lack" of internally stored ordinance, would not the thrust to weight ratio be increased on a non-augmented fighter?

We've been told that the FAST Packs are primarily for speed (although I am sure they are armed with micro missiles, if one considers the tell tale ports on the top) and the Armor Packs are for superior weapons loadout.

Gilliam jestisoning of his FAST packs in ep 1 makes sense, since he didn't need them to fly around an environment that is only 15km long with a ceiling of 2 km, however utilizing an Armor Pack would be tactically wise for close combat in the same environment. Now since the classic GBP was primarily designed as ground based weapons augmentation, would not the designers keep that in mind with the new Armor pack? Thus, would they not possibly utilize light weight ceramic alloys to provide maximum protection along with minimal weight gain for atmostpheric engagements?

The most efficient way to get to a combat zone with an Armor Pack quickly is via GERWAK mode, since transformed jet air flight would be like trying to fly a "truck"! I suspect or would expect the armor pack NOT to be made out of iron, but much lighter, stronger alloys, to accomplish this end. IMHO.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Zinjo