Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[Noyhauser]

From what we have seen in the anime and manga so far, it appears the VF-171 is lacking the VF-17's shoulder mounted micro missile launchers.

However, it looks like it may have a pair of micro missile launcher ports on the ventral surface (on both lower legs). See the attached scan from the manga and also the attached screen capture from the anime, showing the underside of the VF-171 just as it is detaching from the launch arm.

The position of these launchers would make them impractical, not to mention down right dangerous to fire in Battroid and Gerwalk mode, as they are on the inner leg.

The VF-171 may also have had the wrist and elbow beam guns deleated, as it appears to have streamlined fairings over the elbows, where the elbow gun would normally be on a VF-17.

Graham

Realism issues aside, it makes sense tactical sense.

If we keep with the economic motif and that the VF-171 is an downgraded VF-17... then deleting arm lasers (maybe), and all the advanced equipment of the VF-17 would make sense. The VF-17's legs contained the one shot beam weapon and a second ammo clip for the stealth gunpod, a load out that was more useful against high value targets. Thats why it was given to elite pilots like Gamlin. With the VF-171 now facing more conventional opponents, like a zentredi fleet, you don't need all those specialized equipment. So removing all those weapons, and adding more missiles which are useful against a numerically superior zentredi opponent makes sense. It also makes it cheaper, so that it can be mass produced, rather than limiting it as a low production fighter.

But look what happened when the VF-171 faced fewer, more technologically superior foe, like the "Space Monster" in Frontier; it gets crushed. They even used the classic anti-Zentredi tactics at the start: a massive missile barrage, followed by close combat... which was completely ineffective and it showed.

Also, I don't see it so much as a "downgrade." I'd bet that the VF-171 is kinda like the VF-1 Plus. It probably has upgraded engines, maybe more powerful but less verniers as well. But its been optimized for taking out massive quantities of enemies as a standard fighter, not a top end fighter designed to take down a less numerous, more technologically advanced opponent.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Noyhauser

[Graham]

Spoilers ahead regarding VF-25 weapons and it's hand-to-hand combat capability.

Although I haven't scanned those pages of the manga yet, Ozma's VF-25 is shown fighting the red bug using

a large serrated edge combat knife.

Graham

[Duke Togo]

That's... interesting.

[jenius]

Oh God, I hope that's a Manga only thing or that they handle it very carefully.

The last thing I want to see is Valks with swords. In my experience a gun has more ability to pierce armor than a knife.

Edited January 4, 2008 by jenius

[grss1982]

Spoilers ahead regarding VF-25 weapons and it's hand-to-hand combat capability.

Although I haven't scanned those pages of the manga yet, Ozma's VF-25 is shown fighting the red bug using

a large serrated edge combat knife.

Graham

DAMN IT!!!!

Now I'm starting to get GS/GSD vibes with MF. And to a lesser extent SUPER ROBOT vibes!!!!!

Anyways, I just hope I'm wrong.

Maybe the knife could be the same as the FMP's Arm Slaves.

Edited January 4, 2008 by grss1982

[jet660]

Hey Jenius,

Did you forget about Macross Plus Ep.1 where Isamu knifed a power armor while using the vf-11? Blood came out first before it exploded.

[grss1982]

@jet660: I just remembered that scene. SO I guess I must have over reacted on my earlier post here. :-)

I'm curious though:

Why a knife? Why not a bayonet mounted on the VF-25's Gunpod?

Also

Does the VF-25 have a shield on its left arm like the VF-19? I've re-watched MF Ep.1 sooo much that I failed to notice if it had any.

[Noyhauser]

I've never bought into the "private Military" idea. Because in M7 we see that the Military still had control over defense even though there was a normal Civilian police force. What M7 did was bring in the historical nation "Military Defense vs Civil Defense" which is something that is seen through Japanese history especially in the eras of 2-400 years ago. Basically a re-balancing of powers.

So I view the SMS as merely the Civil form of today's SWAT team which helps to explain why the City 'Mayor' has a military adviser just like any other large city/state/country.

While I think your point is interesting, I don't think that its quite what Kawamori intended.

The Froating head seems pretty up to date about modern military issues. While you say Macross 7 talks about Military vs Civillian defence in Japanese history, I disagree. Its actually more reflective of the Japanese Security debate in 1994 and 1995. Remember that Macross 7 played over the summer of 1995, right with the 50th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing.... it was a period of much discussion about what should the JSDF do in the absence of a major security threat like the Soviet Union. Thats what I think the whole concept of Soundforce vs the Military was a comment of. He was trying to suggest that maybe we don't require massive military force, but its more important to have dialogue.

Now what is a major trend today in the military? Alternative Service Delivery and Private Military Companies. Private Airforces are a reality today, and I think SMS is Kawamori's idea of a futuristic example of one. The text pretty clearly says "Civilian Military Provider" when describing SMS in the episode. Now looking at the japanese text, Civillian military is spelt out in Kanji (I think: minkan guun), as these are formal words in Japanese. But "provider" is in Katakana... its a japanese transliteration of a modern english word. He could have used the word squadron (sentai) or battalion or something else. Instead he used the word "provider," a modern concept, not a classical one as you suggest.

I also think the Macross universe 2059 is very different one than we are used to... maybe not as prosperous as it once was. The implication in Macross Plus is that rebellions are breaking out across UN space, and in VFX-2 one almost takes down the entire U.N. As I've pointed out, cost seems to be a fairly important consideration for procurement of military equipment. Instead of maintaining major military formations like Diamond force, they might prefer paying for highly skilled private military services on a "per use" basis.

[P.W.Royce]

I've never bought into the "private Military" idea. Because in M7 we see that the Military still had control over defense even though there was a normal Civilian police force. What M7 did was bring in the historical nation "Military Defense vs Civil Defense" which is something that is seen through Japanese history especially in the eras of 2-400 years ago. Basically a re-balancing of powers.

So I view the SMS as merely the Civil form of today's SWAT team which helps to explain why the City 'Mayor' has a military adviser just like any other large city/state/country.

Art imitates life, and as such we know have a Macross series staring a "Blackwateresqe" valkyrie squadron.

[azrael]

Remember, this is a mecha/technology thread folks. Leave the talk of real-world mercenary groups out of this.

[Noyhauser]

Remember, this is a mecha/technology thread folks. Leave the talk of real-world mercenary groups out of this.

I wasn't going to discuss real world examples... just pointing out the likely inspiration for SMS.

[azrael]

I'm curious though:

Why a knife? Why not a bayonet mounted on the VF-25's Gunpod?

Also

Does the VF-25 have a shield on its left arm like the VF-19? I've re-watched MF Ep.1 sooo much that I failed to notice if it had any.

Perhaps to reduce the chance that it may be lost when the gunpod gets knocked out of the hand and serve as a better or true melee weapon.

Bullets and missiles don't seem to be effective so they might as well get down and dirty.

And yes, it does have a shield. See the magazine images.

[jenius]

Did you forget about Macross Plus Ep.1 where Isamu knifed a power armor while using the vf-11? Blood came out first before it exploded.

No, I think that's a very cool scene, but a bayonet is different from a separate knife. It turns the expended gun you have from a bludgeoning weapon to a stabbing weapon. Also, it wasn't like the bad guy was shown being unaffected by all of Isamu's bullets only to finally be injured by his bayonet.

[wolfx]

Are you referring to the VF-17 or VF-171? The VF-17 has always been able to fire it's gunpod in fighter mode.

If you are talking about the VF-171, can you try to post a screen shot of the scene you are talking about.

Graham

Yeah I was talking about the VF-17....i was always perplexed by how the gunpod is able to be stored in the legs in battroid mode (space does not seem to allow it) and what more its able to open from the knee section to fire in fighter mode , as shown in Macross7. So it would be interesting to see a re-engineering or at least see how Kawamori designs the leg compartments. Or maybe there is such line-art that I have not seen.

Considering anything that comes out from the legs to date was not successfully translated into the toys like the YF-19/VF-11 missile launchers.

You are right about the manga, we do see the elbow guns in gerwalk mode (attached pic). I guess the VF-171's streamlined elbow fairings open up to allow the guns to extend out.

Regarding the VF-17's wrist guns, the Compendium says the following: -

I have always taken that to mean a barrel at the wrist and a barrel at the elbow (the retractable and traversable one). Also, although I don't have my artbooks in front of me now (I'm at work), I'm pretty sure that the wrist gun is labled as such.

Graham

If the wrist and elbow lasers are one in the same, it does make sense, based on the position of the lasers on my Bandai VF-17S. I just didn't know that it was able to fire from the wrists as well in battroid mode.

[jet660]

here's the pic

and the scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAESJ2hL2c

it is at 2:56

You can use a bayonet for hand to hand combat, but that would be suicidal; likewise with a knife as well. I don't know how mauverable a vf can be for CQC. In fighting those aliens in Macross F, you probably have to nail right at the head (canopy?) to kill it.

[Graham]

So far, the red bug's skin seems pretty immune to gunpod fire so I was thinking perhaps the red bug's skin acts something like the shields in Frank Herbert's Dune, in that it will stop high velocity attacks, i.e. gunpod rounds, but slow velocity attacks, i.e. knife thrusts or slashes will penetrate.

Or perhaps, the knife has some sort of localised pin point barrier on the blade, giving it more penetrating power?

Graham

[Graham]

Yeah I was talking about the VF-17....i was always perplexed by how the gunpod is able to be stored in the legs in battroid mode (space does not seem to allow it) and what more its able to open from the knee section to fire in fighter mode , as shown in Macross7. So it would be interesting to see a re-engineering or at least see how Kawamori designs the leg compartments. Or maybe there is such line-art that I have not seen.

On the VF-17, the gunpod shoulder stock splits in two lengthwise along the top and the two halves of the stock fold back along the main body of the gunpod greatly reducing it's overall length. There is no firing port in the knee. The firing port is on the inner side of the lower leg. This alows it to fire in fighter mode, as the inner side of the leg becomes the fighter's ventral surface. However, ithe VF-17 cannot fire it's stored gunpod in Battroid or Gerwalk mode as the exit port is pointing at itself. The Bandai VF-17D/S toys actually have two gunpod firing ports, one on each leg, which is incorrect.

Considering anything that comes out from the legs to date was not successfully translated into the toys like the YF-19/VF-11 missile launchers.

If the wrist and elbow lasers are one in the same, it does make sense, based on the position of the lasers on my Bandai VF-17S. I just didn't know that it was able to fire from the wrists as well in battroid mode.

FYI, the VF-11 leg weapon bays are not considered canon by Kawamori. Only those on the VF-17 & YF/VF-19 are.

Graham

[wolfx]

You can use a bayonet for hand to hand combat, but that would be suicidal; likewise with a knife as well. I don't know how mauverable a vf can be for CQC. In fighting those aliens in Macross F, you probably have to nail right at the head (canopy?) to kill it.

Well considering the battroid mode was made for the purpose of going hand to hand with giant aliens, I can see how its obviously maneuverable enough for CQC. The knife is probably a vibro blade or like Graham suggested has a PPB or something to make it go through armour like butter.

On the VF-17, the gunpod shoulder stock splits in two lengthwise along the top and the two halves of the stock fold back along the main body of the gunpod greatly reducing it's overall length. There is no firing port in the knee. The firing port is on the inner side of the lower leg. This alows it to fire in fighter mode, as the inner side of the leg becomes the fighter's ventral surface. However, ithe VF-17 cannot fire it's stored gunpod in Battroid or Gerwalk mode as the exit port is pointing at itself. The Bandai VF-17D/S toys actually have two gunpod firing ports, one on each leg, which is incorrect.

FYI, the VF-11 leg weapon bays are not considered canon by Kawamori. Only those on the VF-17 & YF/VF-19 are.

Graham

Is there lineart for this?

1stly, if the gunpod folds and is stored, does that mean the firing mechanisms are only located in the 1st half of the gunpod? I don't remember the firing ports on the Bandai VF-17S....gotta go home and check but in any case the gunpod doesn't fold and store on the legs. But if the gunpod fires from the bottom of the fighter, whereas it opens up in the opposite direction in battroid mode...wow that just means the legs area is hollow and there's no place to have engines. Or am I misunderstanding your description of where the gunpod fires in fighter mode?

[Graham]

Yes, there is line-art showing how the VF-17's gunpod folds and how it stores in the leg. I'll scan and post it when I get home, if nobody beats me to it first.

The VF-17's lower legs are quite bulky, so theoretically there is also room for the engines, especially if VF engines have become smaller as technology advances.

However, Kawamori has a lot crammed into the VF-17's ower legs, as there are also the rear landing gears and an internal weapons bay for a reaction weapon!

Graham

[Graham]

But if the gunpod fires from the bottom of the fighter, whereas it opens up in the opposite direction in battroid mode...wow that just means the legs area is hollow and there's no place to have engines. Or am I misunderstanding your description of where the gunpod fires in fighter mode?

Yes, the firing port for fighter mode and the ejection port where the gunpod is expelled for use in battroid mode are on different sides of the leg and no it doesn't get in the way of the engines. The line art will make it all clear.

Graham

[wolfx]

Yes, the firing port for fighter mode and the ejection port where the gunpod is expelled for use in battroid mode are on different sides of the leg and no it doesn't get in the way of the engines. The line art will make it all clear.

Graham

Ok will await the lineart then. I have strangely never seen the lineart for the VF-17's leg's internals so I was quite perplexed on how the gunpod stores and fires in fighter mode.

[Graham]

Here's the manga pic of Ozuma's VF-25 with combat knife.

Graham

[jet660]

strange, I don't remember seeing that in the episode. looks like a hunting or bowie knife (rambo style?).... up to this point I haven't seen any knife fights in Macross before.

[wolfx]

Here's the manga pic of Ozuma's VF-25 with combat knife.

Graham

Pierce him where it hurts most. The eyes. YEAH!

[Graham]

strange, I don't remember seeing that in the episode. looks like a hunting or bowie knife (rambo style?).... up to this point I haven't seen any knife fights in Macross before.

That's beacuse it hasn't happened in the anime yet. The manga covers not only the events in episode #1 of the anime, but also some of what may happen in episode #2. This knife fight if it happens in the anime will take place in episode #2.

However, bear in mind that the manga is quite different from the anime, so we may not see this knife fight happen in the anime.

Graham

[Graham]

up to this point I haven't seen any knife fights in Macross before.

Ahem, while it's true we haven't seen any mecha knife fights before, you are forgetting the famous knife fight between Max & Millia in the original SDFM TV series.

Graham

[P.W.Royce]

Remember, this is a mecha/technology thread folks. Leave the talk of real-world mercenary groups out of this.

I don't think that discussing the designer's possible real-world inlfuences is going off topic. This is a giant robot cartoon we are talking about here, and the machines in these shows are always built the way they are built for one reason or another.

[jet660]

Thanks for the reminder Graham. I should have said "Mecha" knifefights

These bugs/aliens can out run the valks and their micro missiles and guns because of their shield and speed. Hand to hand combat looks interesting. Right now (at least the anime version) they have the slight advantage.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

As long as they don't have acid for blood they aren't doomed. Maybe they can blind the aliens with light and then stab them in the nuts while they are distracted or something? Sorta like how the ride armor guys had to aim for the eyeball to kill the inbit when sneaking around in mospeada? Maybe the humans would need some kind of biological weapon instead of using gunpods? Like a poison-tipped, pinpoint-barrier enhanced spear? heh, a Spartan destroid with a shield and spear being the last line of civilian defence. Maybe put a red cape on it added effect. Or a black one like they did for that death scyth gundam in gundam wing only this one uses optic camouflage and hunts the bugs like the predator? I could see that as SK's revenge against all the people that didn't like the "monster with claws" idea in macross zero.

Edited January 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Graham]

Maybe they can blind the aliens with light and then stab them in the nuts while they are distracted or something?

Which begs the question, do bugs have nuts?

Heh, and how many MWers are now gonna start going through the anime frame by frame, trying to capture that elusive screen shot of the bug's nuts?.......LOL!

Graham

[wolfx]

Eugimon ate them.....i know cause I saw them...

in Eugimon's Omega Pants.

[Graham]

Bug's nuts?

Graham

[grss1982]

Hey Graham, was that the only scan of the Mecha-sized knife?

You know

I had expected a folding knife like the ones on the Strike Gundam or maybe the throwing knives of the ARX-7 that were hidden in the torso.

Wait a minute were did Ozma pull the knife from? Torso? Leg? Arm?

EDIT:

WAIT!!! WAIT!!!! WAIT!!!!

There was blood coming out of the Red Bug!!!

Malcontent Zentraedi giants in newer suits???

Edited January 4, 2008 by grss1982

[Morpheus]

Maybe they'll develop a new valk named Valk-Buster and equipped with a buster beam to deal with the space bugs (...hides).

I wonder if the bugs have their own hive ships or something.

[Graham]

Hey Graham, was that the only scan of the Mecha-sized knife?

I think so. The whole manga is now posted here, so you can also check if you feel like it.

Wait a minute were did Ozma pull the knife from? Torso? Leg? Arm?

Don't know. I'm guessing that it's stored inside the arm shield. Just a guess though. Or maybe he pulled it from eugimon's omega pants^TM.

Graham