Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[wolfx]

One scene later (the sequence that shows the title) the VF-25 Full Armor is shown flying in GERWALK mode, not hovering along the ground slowly. Remember, Ozuma was way up high when he found Alto and the Vajra, such that he needed the cockpit to magnify the distant image.

I agree that the commander armour pack will be more of a hindrance in earth-like gravity but still possible to have on during flight/hover in said environment. With the armour on, while you may not have the air lift , you'd have to rely on the verniers and boosters of the Valk + Pack and is not the most maneuverable configuration to have in an atmosphere. If you wanted to do air acrobatics like Alto did in an atmosphere, you'd have to purge the armour. And seeing Ozma was going CQC on the Vajra, i think he didn't really need to purge the armour anyway.

On another matter, Alto said luckily Ranka's ear drums were intact regarding her short exposure to space and she mentioned it was ok as she was 1/4 Zentran, hence resilience to vacuum of space. But how about Alto? I doubt that training helmet would provide him any protection from the effects of vacuum. Or was he just relieved that Ranka being a girl is more susceptible to damage from space and was just being caring?

[taksraven]

Thanks for Mr March for the website link to create this.

Taksraven

[Mr March]

ChronoReverse

Your post initially sounded as if you believed the VF-25 Full Armor was not capable of atmospheric flight because it seemed to labour just hovering. Which is why I posted my reminder. Nonetheless, the VF-11 hovering while carrying the YF-21 is a simple matter compared to an Armored Valkyrie. The VF-11 is 9 tons and the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons; the VF-1J Armored Valkyrie weighs 37.1 tons at standard operational mass (sadly, the only Full Armor statistics for weight that are available). Nonetheless, quite a large difference so I don't think the VF-11/YF-21 comparison applies. Of course, all would be revealed if we had some VF-25 stats to compare. Damn Kawamori

wolfx

It's only logical that although the VF-25 Full Armor can fly under gravity in GERWALK mode, it's won't be as nimble as the unarmored mode. However, it's clear from episode 2 that the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK is quite maneuverable in gravity and did not require Ozuma to fly with any special attention. We don't yet know what the limit of the Full Armor flight capabilities.

I think Alto being older and larger was likely more durable than Ranka and his flight suit with EX-Gear would grant him a small measure of protection more than Ranka's civilian dress. I don't think it was a gender issue.

taksraven

LOL Not bad. We have to make some more

[mikeszekely]

Until we have clearer information on the topic, it's an assumption that the entirety of Frontier 1 is operating under 0.75G. The lower gravity zone might only apply to a transitional area. With that in mind, the armored VF-25 might very well have been flying in Gerwalk mode under full gravity.

The Dragon II came first, regardless of what changes or intent the great Froating Head said, or changed his underwear a dozen times over since 1982.

In-continuity, yes. What Kawamori actually designed first is open for debate. The Macross Design Works indicates that the earliest sketches for what would become the VF-1 were from January of '80, but doesn't give a date for the Dragon II. From what little I can glean from the Japanese text, it does mention the F-14 as the design inspiration for the VF-1, and the F-15 as the inspiration for the Dragon II.

I would imagine, although only Kawamori could say for sure, that the VF-1's design was completed first, and that he worked backward to create the Dragon II later when they decided to do an episode about Roy and Claudia's past.

In any case, it might be easy to see how, in-continuity, the F203 evolved from the F-15, and the VF-1 evolved from the F203, but I believe sketchley was quoting the real-world planes that influenced Kawamori's VF designs. The F203 would be disqualified for not being a real-world plane.

[twich]

well, you have to remember the numbers that we are talking about....the compendium states that the VF-19S has 2 Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2550J engines that produce 78950kg of thrust a piece. Now think on that...173690 pounds of thrust per engine....roughly 86.5 tons of thrust....I think that a matter of 20-30 tons on a 10 ton VF-25 is not going to make a heap of worry for that much thrust....and that is for the VF-19S, no telling how much more power the engines for the VF-25 produce.

[ChronoReverse]

ChronoReverse

Your post initially sounded as if you believed the VF-25 Full Armor was not capable of atmospheric flight because it seemed to labour just hovering.

I'm sorry if I sounded that way but I really only meant that the mass (not weight) of the armour was shown and thus it probably isn't that much lighter than the usual armour (addressing someone's conjecture that perhaps this new Heavy Armour was lighter). It's called Heavy Armour for a reason

Nonetheless, the VF-11 hovering while carrying the YF-21 is a simple matter compared to an Armored Valkyrie. The VF-11 is 9 tons and the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons; the VF-1J Armored Valkyrie weighs 37.1 tons at standard operational mass (sadly, the only Full Armor statistics for weight that are available). Nonetheless, quite a large difference so I don't think the VF-11/YF-21 comparison applies.

Of course it applies. The 11 can't even achieve escape velocity on its own. Even with two booster rockets it doesn't come close to the performance of the YF-21. Furthermore, the production engines on the 19 and 22 were much more powerful than the prototypes.

The point is that the 25, by logical extension, should definitely have enough thrust.

well, you have to remember the numbers that we are talking about....the compendium states that the VF-19S has 2 Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2550J engines that produce 78950kg of thrust a piece. Now think on that...173690 pounds of thrust per engine....roughly 86.5 tons of thrust....I think that a matter of 20-30 tons on a 10 ton VF-25 is not going to make a heap of worry for that much thrust....and that is for the VF-19S, no telling how much more power the engines for the VF-25 produce.

Awesome. Numbers are always good when they back up logical analysis.

Edited April 17, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[azrael]

In any case, it might be easy to see how, in-continuity, the F203 evolved from the F-15, and the VF-1 evolved from the F203, but I believe sketchley was quoting the real-world planes that influenced Kawamori's VF designs. The F203 would be disqualified for not being a real-world plane.

*sigh* mikeszekely, if you don't mind...

Mod mode

I love it when someone mis-reads something and gets the context of a post all wrong. Then starts telling someone to

Please STUFF IT up yer shorts.

about something they misread. Gives me that warm smack-down feeling. (hint hint)

[mikeszekely]

*sigh* mikeszekely, if you don't mind...

Mind what? That sighs not for me, is it?

[azrael]

Mind what? That sighs not for me, is it?

Nope. None of it is directed at you.

[mikeszekely]

Nope.

Well as long as I'm good, nope, I don't mind at all! Sigh and lay as much smack-down as you like.

[RichterX]

Now that you mentioned it. When I realized that Ozma's unit was flying in an artificial Earth-like atmosphere with that huge amount of armor, I went WTF!!!!??? If it was in space It was believable. I mean the original full armor from Macross Zero being used by Roy could only hover inside the Asuka.

Over Technology must have really gone a long way in helping those new armor add-ons for the VF-25 become that lightweight. OR am I analyzing this the wrong way and the new add-ons are quite heavy, but is compensated by the VF-25's use of some very powerful engines.

the armored VF-0 actually hovered for a while over the water while Roy unloaded his missiles on Ivanov, after that he boosted it towards the deck of the carrier, so i think the VF had engines powerful enough for the mobility of the armored Battloid from the beginning, considering that the VF-4 was the first variable fighter capable of leaving Earth atmosphere on its own power I would guess technology progress far in in Macross Frontier to allow the VF fast movement with the armor even if somewhat restricted.

[sketchley]

In-continuity, yes. What Kawamori actually designed first is open for debate. The Macross Design Works indicates that the earliest sketches for what would become the VF-1 were from January of '80, but doesn't give a date for the Dragon II. From what little I can glean from the Japanese text, it does mention the F-14 as the design inspiration for the VF-1, and the F-15 as the inspiration for the Dragon II.

I would imagine, although only Kawamori could say for sure, that the VF-1's design was completed first, and that he worked backward to create the Dragon II later when they decided to do an episode about Roy and Claudia's past.

In any case, it might be easy to see how, in-continuity, the F203 evolved from the F-15, and the VF-1 evolved from the F203, but I believe sketchley was quoting the real-world planes that influenced Kawamori's VF designs. The F203 would be disqualified for not being a real-world plane.

Just for the record - I was posting only to clarify the quote from a published book. If the continuity says that the VF-1 evolved from the VF-0 which evolved from the F-203, then I'm cool with that. The point of the article is merely where the design inspiration for various VFs came from.

In addition, at the tail end of the article, is a list of name sources for VFs, and they are, in no particular order:

F-4U Cutlass

F-8 Crusader

P-38 Lightning

XB-7 Valkyrie (posting as it appears in print in the magazine. Isn't it the XB-70?)

Me262 Sturmvogel

P-47 Thunderbolt

A-10 Thunderbolt

De Havilland Vampire (the current wikipedia article has the exact same picture as the mag! What are the odds...)

[Duke Togo]

Just for the record - I was posting only to clarify the quote from a published book. If the continuity says that the VF-1 evolved from the VF-0 which evolved from the F-203, then I'm cool with that.

Wait wait, I thought the VF-0 and VF-1 were developed simultaneously?

[sketchley]

Erm... it's late here and I'm pumped for Macross F. If my post contradicts the compendium, go with whatever the compendium says.

[Zinjo]

Wait wait, I thought the VF-0 and VF-1 were developed simultaneously?

The Zero squadron was a testing squadron never meant for combat, but when the AUN rolled out their new SV-51 and the Valk wasn't ready, they pressed the zero into service.

One definitely gets the impression they were in development at the same time, however it seems that the VF-1's deployment was delayed whereas the VF-0 may have been deployed for some months prior.

[Ironside]

Even at 75% gravity, that still leaves the vast majority of the mass to deal with. If the Full Armor is an extra 20-30 tons, that's still 15-23 extra tons of weight. It's very doubtful the 1/4 less gravity would allow the VF-25 to go from no flight to unhindered flight. Granted, it's possible, but IMO, the VF-25 Full Armor system would have to be much lighter or the capabilities of the VF-25 engines that much more powerful in order to fly around under any significant gravity.

ChronoReverse

Your post initially sounded as if you believed the VF-25 Full Armor was not capable of atmospheric flight because it seemed to labour just hovering. Which is why I posted my reminder. Nonetheless, the VF-11 hovering while carrying the YF-21 is a simple matter compared to an Armored Valkyrie. The VF-11 is 9 tons and the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons; the VF-1J Armored Valkyrie weighs 37.1 tons at standard operational mass (sadly, the only Full Armor statistics for weight that are available). Nonetheless, quite a large difference so I don't think the VF-11/YF-21 comparison applies. Of course, all would be revealed if we had some VF-25 stats to compare. Damn Kawamori

wolfx

It's only logical that although the VF-25 Full Armor can fly under gravity in GERWALK mode, it's won't be as nimble as the unarmored mode. However, it's clear from episode 2 that the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK is quite maneuverable in gravity and did not require Ozuma to fly with any special attention. We don't yet know what the limit of the Full Armor flight capabilities.

SNIP

Okay, I rarely feel the need to post, but I gotta put this to rest.

First, the VF-11 and YF-21 masses are mass EMPTY. The fighters are likely heavier than that loaded, much like the VF-1's 13.25 ton mass empty compares to its 18.5 ton Standard TO (Take Off) mass (assumed to be pilot, life support, 12 missiles, GU-11 w 200 rounds and fuel). It's difficult to say for certain what the -11, -21 or any other VF should weigh loaded, but I would expect their standard TO mass to be in the range of 20 tons. (The tons, btw, are metric...this becomes important in a few paragraphs.)

The GBP-1S Full armor system (VF-1) weighs in at a svelte 16.2 tons. The VF-25 system is larger, more heavily armed and more complex, but it is made with "modern" materials. Since we know modern materials have reduced the weight of VF's we can assume it has done the same for strap-on armor, meaning estimating the VF-25's armor pack at 30 tons is really over doing it. However, I'm not trying to nit-pick, I'm trying to make a point. In the interest of that I'm going to split the difference between my guess at the -25 full armor weight and your worst case scenario guess. I say 18 to 20 tons and you say 20 to 30 so we'll call it 19 to 25 tons.

We know the -25 has performance similar to the VF-19. We know the -25 is about the same size as the -19 and it could be in similar weight category (I think it would pushing the boundaries of believability to argue that the 25 weighs so much more than the 25 as to make a difference). So, while we can't use real stats for VF-25 the VF-19 can act as a stand-in for the -25 and give us results close enough to the ball park to determine whether or not the VF-25 full armor could fly in Earth gravity.

First, lets assume a flat 20 ton TO mass, for ease of calculation. Now let's assume a 25 ton Armor mass. So the simulated VF-25 Full Armor masses 45 tons fully loaded.

Now, to give maximum advantage to anyone who thinks the Full Armor couldn't fly, I'm going to use the lowest applicable propulsion value, YF-19 original specifications, thrust limited by atmospheric flight (40 to 60% of thrust in space):

56500kg maximum in space, at 40% = 22600kg of thrust... x2 Because there are 2 engines. Kg are, of course kilograms which are metric. We're dealing in metric tons, so how many kgs to the metric ton? 1000, of course. (No, I don't think anyone is stupid, I'm making sure all of the information to justify my conclusion is in one post). So divide thrust in kg by 1000 and you get thrust in tons, in this case 22.6 tons x2 or 45.2 tons of thrust.

If I (massing about 105 kgs) want to hover I need overcome the acceleration of gravity. Newton tells us I need a force acting on me pushing against gravity with a power equal to my mass. So to hover I need 105 kgs of thrust. So for our 45 ton Armored VF to hover it needs 45 ton, and it has 45.2.

It can not only hover, but it can climb straight up at a underwhelming rate of 4.355 centimeters per second squared!

Hardly impressive, I know, but I DID give almost every advantage to doubt, and I still got it to hover.

Of course, a "realistic" (for anime values of realistic) mass is a little closer to the 37 ton of GBP-1S. Also, let's perform a strict reading of the VF-25's performance information, indicating that its performance is comparable to the VF-19 not the YF-19. The VF-19F pulls a stupefying 145tons (72.5 tons x2) in space. at a mere 40% (remember, 60% is also a valid number here) that's 58 tons of thrust in atmosphere. That give is an acceleration of 5.157 meters per second or about 18.56 kilometers per hour per second. In American terms that's zero to 60 in about 5.38 seconds. Still nothing to write home about, but definitive proof that the simulated VF-25 can not only hover, but accelerate at least as fast as an economy sports car.

But we've left something out here. The Armor system has engines too. Somewhere on these forums is translation stating that VF-25 Heavy is as fast as the VF-25 but not as fast as the VF-25 Super. This seems born out by the translation I have of Frontier ep.1 where Ozama is unable to catch up with the Varja but Gilliam is. Also, Ozama's use of Super parts in the launch sequence at the end of ep.2 suggests that he would rather be fast enough to catch the Varja than heavily armored.

If the VF-25 Heavy is as fast as the VF-25, then that means its extra engines provide thrust equal to the weight of the armor times the thrust to weight ratio of the unarmored fighter.

Using our worst case scenario YF-19 based simulation we take a 20 fighter that has 45.2 tons of thrust in atmosphere, thrust to weight ratio is 2.26. We estimate the Armor system at 25 tons, so 25 tons times 2.26 is 56.5 tons. So our simulated YF-19 based VF-25 Heavy has 45.2 + 56.5 tons of thrust total for an impressive 101.7 tons of thrust. It accelerates at 1.26 g straight up. This thing can not only fly, it can out fly the F-15. It can do a vulcan climb from standing start.

And keep this in mind. ALL of my acceleration figures were for going straight up in Earth gravity. Any other direction than up and you have to add some fraction of 1g or 9.81 meter per second squared. Of course the VF-25 heavy seems to have the aerodynamics of pregnant tank, so it's unlikely that it gets much lift. However, by the numbers, the Heavy Armor should fly, lift or no. Hell, if the GBP-1S boosters have anything near the thrust of the VF-1 Super booster it can fly, too. Which is why Roy Focker's flying VF-0 Heavy isn't so far fetched.

[sketchley]

Good post. Though, I think you're reading the compendium stats wrong:

The Y/VF-19 engines are only 40 to 60% as powerful in space, as they are in atmosphere (100% in atmosphere, 40 to 60% in space.) This has to do with the cooling, from the engines not having an atmosphere running through them at stupifying speeds to cool them.

Nevertheless, your math stands as proof that in a vacuum, but 1.0G environment, the VF-25 Full Armour can fly.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, I read it the same too that engines have more power in an atmosphere.

But that only makes it even easier to fly in an atmosphere.

[Ironside]

Good post. Though, I think you're reading the compendium stats wrong:

The Y/VF-19 engines are only 40 to 60% as powerful in space, as they are in atmosphere (100% in atmosphere, 40 to 60% in space.) This has to do with the cooling, from the engines not having an atmosphere running through them at stupifying speeds to cool them.

Nevertheless, your math stands as proof that in a vacuum, but 1.0G environment, the VF-25 Full Armour can fly.

When I first read the compendium data, almost 13 years ago...man I'm getting old...I made the same mistake. Something about the phrasing makes it seem like the engines should be more powerful in atmosphere because of the cooling problem.

Two 42700 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere; 67500 [64700] kg [x g] class in space) Shinnakasu Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2500E thermonuclear turbine engines replacing two 56500 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in space) Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2200B engines in beginning specifications. In atmosphere, the engines use air as coolant/propellant, but due to problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core) the maximum thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of thrust in space.

Emphasis mine.

Since the the implication here is that reaction engine propellant is also a coolant one can only assume that the passage above is trying to tell us that the propellant used by VFs is a better thermal transfer medium than the typical mixture of atmospheric gases. Which begs the question; Why don't they just use space propellant in atmosphere, and I have no answer to that. I'm sure serveral thousand answers could be suggested, but I don't have one.

However, It does add one point to the discussion, that being the VF-25 Heavy armor appears to cover the fighter's intakes. This may prevent the use of atmosphere as propellant, forcing the heavy to rely on internal fuel...actually improving its thrust output, to 169.5 tons giving it an insane 3.725 to 1 thrust to mass ratio.

This thing is beginning to scare me.

EDIT: spelling

Edited April 17, 2008 by Ironside

[sketchley]

The use of atmosphere is easy - it means less use of reactant. In space, reactant is used for both the creation of energy, as well as the mass sent hurling out the rear of the engine.

I'm not exactly certain about why the space and air thrusts are different, but, and I'm repeating someone elses arguements here, in an atmosphere, things like drag (friction), and headwinds must be taken into consideration. In addition, in space, there is less thermal transfer. True, air/reactant rushing through the engine will cool things, but what from there?

Again, I must stress that I'm repeating someone else's arguement (can one of the more technically proficient people step in?), so I suggest withholding a reply until then (plus it's late here, and I'm having trouble keeping the eyes open, let alone keeping a coherent train of thought!)

[ChronoReverse]

Hmm, that should really be rephrased. Now that it's pointed out to me I see it though.

[Final Vegeta]

I think this debate over whether the armored can or cannot fly wasn't needed.

Standard operational mass, with 16200-kg GBP-1S system: 37100 kg

Max T-O mass: 37000 kg

The VF-1 could almost fly even with the GBP-1S on (and actually the GBP-1S comes with rear booster packs), the VF-25 is a state-of-the-art Valkyrie and has even more powerful thrusters. In anime you see fly even less aerodynamical mechas.

FV

[Mr March]

mikeszekely

A very good point. Having 1/4 less gravity at an embarkation/debarkation area makes a lot of sense from both a point of transitional acclimation for human passengers as well as assisting in the sending/receiving of cargo. Mostly likely the rest of the ship is at 1g.

ChronoReverse

Hmmm, I think I've lost track of what we're supposed to be debating here, cause I'm not following your post. I only meant to imply the VF-11 carrying the YF-21 is not nearly as heavy as a Valkyrie equipped with a full armor system (and the statistics agree). So I don't really understand the comparison to the VF-11/YF-21 and the VF-25 Full Armor.

Digressing to the whole point I was making, I think the weight of the VF-25 Full Armor will be significant, like all armor systems in the past have been. But a combination of lighter weight materials, a more stream-lined armor system on the VF-25 and the VF-25's own powerful engines are likely the reasons why the Full Armor GERWALK can fly in gravity.

RichterX

That's not a bad point and a good example to cite. But like you said, I don't think there was ever any doubt that an Armored Valkyrie would have some thruster mobility even under gravity. Just that it's likely an Armored Battroid can't fly in gravity.

Ironside

Okay, first and foremost (and this is by no means directly only at Ironside but to everyone who's said the following in the last two pages of this thread), let's lose the whole "I don't post here often" garbage. Your posts will be given as much or as little consideration as the content of the posts warrants and no more or less than any other member here, newbie and veteran alike. This thread already has enough pretentious drama.

Onto the subject of Valkyrie mass, after the VF-1, all we have for official numbers are empty weights. So anyone arbitrarily assigning a standard take-off mass is only asking for their theory to be discredited outright. We simply don't know, so we use what is known, which I why I use empty weight.

Now, were we to extrapolate simply for the sake of argument, the only meaningful benchmark would be the statistics of the VF-1. I actually have done weight calculations for the Macross Valkyries, both empty AND estimated take-off mass. These are to be part of a special thrust-to-weight ratio section for the Macross Mecha Manual. If we were to use the VF-1 Valkyrie as our only benchmark, the VF-1 has an extra 5.25 tons beyond it's 13.25 tons empty mass for munitions and fuel in the standard take-off configuration. If we want to extrapolate and get into number crunching, you either add 5.25 tons to the later variable fighters or you use 40% of the empty Valkyrie mass. That's as close to semi-official fan extrapolation as we can get.

Of course, we know that this theory is already erroneous. The Valkyries also become lighter over time, not heavier and their munitions become smaller (55mm to 30 mm). So the VF-11 standard take-off weight would actually be far less than an additional 5.25 tons. Regardless, for argument's sake we'll add an extra 5.25 tons to the YF-21 (ignoring the fact that the YF-21 was not fully armed at the time; it was animated without gun pods during the sequence from Macross Plus). This has the YF-21 sitting at 14.8 tons; like I said, a far cry from an extra 37.1 tons of weight.

As for the VF-25 issue, the official literature translated so far says it's comparable to the VF-19 in performance. If we assume the VF-19S was the most advanced the VF-19 ever became, we get results such as:

VF-19S Excalibur (empty)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 18.32

VF-19S Excalibur estimated standard take-off mass (with 5.25 extra tons of weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 11.38

If we were to add the total extra weight of a standard take-off mass VF-1J Armored system to the VF-25 (using VF-19 statistics), we'd have an additional 18.6 tons to account for. So, if we assume 1 gravity and ignored the Full Armor additional thrusters we get

VF-25S as VF-19S statistics (with 18.6 extra tons of VF-1J Armored System weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 4.86

More than enough to fly. All other considerations being equal, the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK would be more nimble in the atmosphere under gravity than the old VF-1 unarmored. Which brings us right back to what I said previously.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

...let's lose the whole "I don't post here often" garbage. Your posts will be given as much or as little consideration as the content of the posts warrants and no more or less than any other member here, newbie and veteran alike. This thread already has enough pretentious drama.

KABUKI anyone????

[ChronoReverse]

I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue Mr. March. Your earlier comments indicate that you didn't think that the Armoured VF-25 should fly but now you're saying that it should?

[Mr March]

I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue Mr. March. Your earlier comments indicate that you didn't think that the Armoured VF-25 should fly but now you're saying that it should?

The biggest "Huh" I can imagine just popped into my head. I posted that the VF-25 DID fly, in my first thoughts on the subject! And I quote from page 31...

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=582559

Further, we see that the VF-25 Full Armor in GERWALK mode can hover and even fly inside the atmosphere! That's pretty damn impressive. I would imagine the VF-25 Full Armor weighs less than previous era Armored Valkyries to accomplish this kind of operation.

As always, I'm eagerly awaiting the statistics on the new Valkyries.

Well, at least I know why I had such a hard time understanding your arguments CR, because we were arguing FOR the same point

*embarrassed*

[Ironside]

Ironside

Okay, first and foremost (and this is by no means directly only at Ironside but to everyone who's said the following in the last two pages of this thread), let's lose the whole "I don't post here often" garbage. Your posts will be given as much or as little consideration as the content of the posts warrants and no more or less than any other member here, newbie and veteran alike. This thread already has enough pretentious drama.

Let's lose the rudeness, too. After all, I said "I don't post here often, but..." Which roughtly translates as, "I'm a n00b, but I'm gonna wade into this anyway.

Onto the subject of Valkyrie mass, after the VF-1, all we have for official numbers are empty weights. So anyone arbitrarily assigning a standard take-off mass is only asking for their theory to be discredited outright. We simply don't know, so we use what is known, which I why I use empty weight.

Weak argument. My intent was to prove the VF-25 Heavy not only COULD fly, but should. As you have pointed out, my basic numbers were high. If I were trying to skew the argument in my favor, I would have gone for a TO mass less than 20 tons, much less. So discrediting my TO mass figures is pointless unless you do so by proving the actual TO mass is MORE that 20 tons and the loaded Armor mass is more than 25 tons.

Now, were we to extrapolate simply for the sake of argument, the only meaningful benchmark would be the statistics of the VF-1. I actually have done weight calculations for the Macross Valkyries, both empty AND estimated take-off mass. These are to be part of a special thrust-to-weight ratio section for the Macross Mecha Manual. If we were to use the VF-1 Valkyrie as our only benchmark, the VF-1 has an extra 5.25 tons beyond it's 13.25 tons empty mass for munitions and fuel in the standard take-off configuration. If we want to extrapolate and get into number crunching, you either add 5.25 tons to the later variable fighters or you use 40% of the empty Valkyrie mass. That's as close to semi-official fan extrapolation as we can get.

Of course, we know that this theory is already erroneous. The Valkyries also become lighter over time, not heavier and their munitions become smaller (55mm to 30 mm). So the VF-11 standard take-off weight would actually be far less than an additional 5.25 tons. Regardless, for argument's sake we'll add an extra 5.25 tons to the YF-21 (ignoring the fact that the YF-21 was not fully armed at the time; it was animated without gun pods during the sequence from Macross Plus). This has the YF-21 sitting at 14.8 tons; like I said, a far cry from an extra 37.1 tons of weight.

I've done the same math. It's pointless because we can't ever know the fuel fraction. You can go all of the guesstimating you like with everything else, but the only VF you can guess at the fuel fraction of is the VF-1. And that's only a guess, based on the assumption that the FAST Packs use the same fuel as the reaction engine.

We can, however, safely guess that the fuel fraction is higher in modern fighters. Light weight structure is an invitation to engineers to add more weapons, more fuel. Modern VF engines are vastly more powerful. To carry less fuel assumes more powerful fuel, or vastly greater fuel efficiency. Having run those numbers, I can promise that you need both more powerful fuel and more efficient engines just to keep the fuel factor the same, or the VF has a lower top speed in space (Yes, they have a top speed in space; the point when they run out fuel and can no longer accelerate). The VF-1 has a max delta v of 7km/s.

As for the VF-25 issue, the official literature translated so far says it's comparable to the VF-19 in performance. If we assume the VF-19S was the most advanced the VF-19 ever became, we get results such as:

VF-19S Excalibur (empty)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 18.32

VF-19S Excalibur estimated standard take-off mass (with 5.25 extra tons of weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 11.38

If we were to add the total extra weight of a standard take-off mass VF-1J Armored system to the VF-25 (using VF-19 statistics), we'd have an additional 18.6 tons to account for. So, if we assume 1 gravity and ignored the Full Armor additional thrusters we get

VF-25S as VF-19S statistics (with 18.6 extra tons of VF-1J Armored System weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 4.86

More than enough to fly. All other considerations being equal, the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK would be more nimble in the atmosphere under gravity than the old VF-1 unarmored. Which brings us right back to what I said previously.

All this is is the exact opposite of my method. I used the highest reasonable numbers and you used the lowest numbers. Same conclusion. What I was trying to establish, based on the fact that your statements on the subject indicated disbelief in the VF-25 Heavy's ability to fly (CronoReverse got the same impression, so it's not just me), was not only that the VF-25 heavy should fly, EVERY heavy Armor system should fly, and VF-25 should actually be damned good at it. Which I believe I did prove.

Edit: Forget the 7 kps thing. That's looking more and more like a Robowreck factoid. Completely useless, especially given the fact that VF-1 Super maxes out at 5.528 kps, a respectable 19903 kph.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Ironside

[ChronoReverse]

In any case, we're all on the same page so let's bury the hatchet okay? (dang my reading comprehension is pretty bad today).

[Zinjo]

KABUKI anyone????

**sorry couldn't resist....

[Mr March]

Ironside

The only rudeness is coming from you. Every member can clearly see your post count and does not need to have the blatantly obvious explained to them. That would be rude. Thus, we're back to what I said the post was; needless drama. And let's also keep in mind that my post "asked" that it not continue.

Regarding...official figures: Continuity works via unification of the known facts. Hence, empty weight figures work just fine as a basis for comparison. The VF-11 weighs less the the YF-21; we know this because of empty weight figures and that's the only OFFICIAL basis for comparison we have. So I use the figures in the only way they can be used. You might as well have said 15 tons or 100 tons for all the unofficial irrelevance your 20 ton figure has. What you've done is pull numbers out of nowhere and in turn damned my use of official figures as a basis for straight comparison. I can't imagine any way in which you could be more in error.

Regarding...Fan Speculation: Beyond official figures, my speculations are as valid as your speculations. Use 20 tons if you like to speculate. Personally, I argue for the VF-1 benchmark of 5.25 tons or ratio. Regardless, in the realm of fan speculation, our only option is to agree to disagree on what each of us has used to obtain our own figures. In the end, who cares? No one can prove an argument of fan speculation just as one can't win an argument of opinion.

Regarding...the supposed misconception: I was as baffled by ChronoReverse's statements as apparently he was by mine. Nonetheless, a direct quote has proven I stated the VF-25 can fly, complete with a quote and link. ChronoReverse honestly made a mishap understanding my posts as did I understanding his. That matter has now been resolved. If my proven correct opinion on the matter is ignored by other members, I don't have to state where the obvious fault lies.

ChronoReverse

Things are good on my end.

[azrael]

Are we done with this "rude" stuff or shall I get some coffee?

[Mr March]

Fair enough.

"I must have that emoticon!"

[Ironside]

Regarding...official figures: Continuity works via unification of the known facts. Hence, empty weight figures work just fine as a basis for comparison. The VF-11 weighs less the the YF-21; we know this because of empty weight figures and that's the only OFFICIAL basis for comparison we have. So I use the figures in the only way they can be used. You might as well have said 15 tons or 100 tons for all the unofficial irrelevance your 20 ton figure has. What you've done is pull numbers out of nowhere and in turn damned my use of official figures as a basis for straight comparison. I can't imagine any way in which you could be more in error.

But I'm not in error. I'm just not providing actual numbers. Which I don't have to provide to prove my point. You insist that my using higher masses to prove the Heavy could fly is in error, but my numbers prove it could fly with 3.7 gs og acceleration. And your argument is that I should use lower numbers, which only serve to make it fly faster. Which number should be used is irrelevant to the discussion. I took and official number, VF-1 Standard TO mass 18.5 tons, and then made it bigger. Let us not forget that you said:

snip I would imagine the VF-25 Full Armor weighs less than previous era Armored Valkyries to accomplish this kind of operation.

snip

The numbers I used, by your own argument are too high, yet it still flies with a Thrust to weight ratio 3 times that of the F-15. I proved that the VF-25 could weight substantially more than the original Heavy armor system and still fly well. Arguing that my math fails to prove anything, when anyone seeking to prove me wrong would have demonstrate that 45 tons IS NOT HEAVY ENOUGH is the error.

I did not "damn" your methods, I simply said they were the opposite of my own. But I will damn them now, but only to illustrate a point. You added weight to your VF-19S. You had no more justification for doing so than I did. There are no figures to prove your additional weight figure, just some off the cuff estimates you made by comparing the VF-1 and the VF-19 empty weights. But you see, I did the same. I compared empty mass, assumed mass shrinkage on the weapons, and then added mass back in to account for the VF-19's larger weapons load, then ball parked on the extra fuel needed to power engines that are some 3.4 times more powerful than the VF-1s. After all of that I concluded that the VF-19's TO mass was probably around 18 tons. I added 2 tons just to be conservative. So my numbers were based on official data as well and have as much fudge factor as yours do. So I damn your methods using your rules. Using my rules, I simply question your methods, as I prefer a more conservative approach. That way, if I am wrong, the right answer still proves my point.

Regarding...Fan Speculation: Beyond official figures, my speculations are as valid as your speculations. Use 20 tons if you like to speculate. Personally, I argue for the VF-1 benchmark of 5.25 tons or ratio. Regardless, in the realm of fan speculation, our only option is to agree to disagree on what each of us has used to obtain our own figures. In the end, who cares? No one can prove an argument of fan speculation just as one can't win an argument of opinion.

The beauty of this, in my opinion is that we aren't arguing over anything. Certainly I made a detailed case against you, but it was a case based on a misconception. We already agree to some extent. Your off the cuff remark that VF-25 would need to be lighter to perform as it did was obviously just that, off the cuff. Your own calculations prove that. Even if you assume the mass has not decreased and use the GBP-1S loaded mass of ~37 tons, you still get a thrust to weight ratio of 4.256 to 1. Your own estimates for the Heavy show it to be highly mobile. As do mine.

Regarding...the supposed misconception: I was as baffled by ChronoReverse's statements as apparently he was by mine. Nonetheless, a direct quote has proven I stated the VF-25 can fly, complete with a quote and link. ChronoReverse honestly made a mishap understanding my posts as did I understanding his. That matter has now been resolved. If my proven correct opinion on the matter is ignored by other members, I don't have to state where the obvious fault lies.

ChronoReverse

Things are good on my end.

The misconception wasn't supposed. It happened. CR misunderstood you, I misunderstood you, and you misunderstood him, and seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm past proving that VF-25 Heavy can fly. I'm defending my methods. My methods are provably valid, and you continue to say they are not. You seem to believe, for reasons unclear to me, that I'm attacking your conclusions. At most, I'm guilty of suggesting that your posts were written in a manner that encouraged misunderstanding. Your conclusions match mine, and I have no reason to attack them. In your zeal to prove me wrong you choose to attack my methods and I have defended them. This is not a matter of opinion. Certainly I have opined that empty mass is not the best starting point, but I did not suggest that your method gave the wrong answer. You, however, have blatantly said that I am wrong. Either I am wrong or I am right. Clearly the Heavy can fly, it's in the anime. My method proves that even if you stack the deck against the heavy, it can still fly and fly well.

EDIT: With apologies to the Moderator. I did not know you had posted. This post edited to remove discussion of rudeness.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Ironside

[grss1982]

BTW, three episodes have come and go and I'm wondering.....

Am I the only one who is missing the old flight suits from DYRL, and Macross Plus (Isamu's Suit) variety?

The new flight suits are just... I don't.

[Gui]

Frankly, I'm very pleased they dropped the old flight suit design: these shining shoulders were... uuurg...