Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[sketchley]

Good questions. Very good. I guess we'll have to wait until later in the series.

Though I have the following two thoughts:

1) Kawamori San loves Gundam. Gundam has sharpshooter GMs with enhanced beam rifles.

2) there were no power cables attached to the gunpod; thus decreasing the possibility that it's an energy weapon (though, there's the possibility of having a small thermonuclear reactor or something similar inside, but that'd make the weapon much heavier and more dangerous than it needs to be.)

[azrael]

I agree as well. I recognize snipers as sharpshooters that's in an undisclosed location. Just because someone uses a long range rifle doesn't make him/her a sniper IMO. The deciding factor for me would be whether the shooter is concealed or not.

A "sharpshooter" or "marksman" usually works with a regular unit and provides long-range support. Snipers usually act independently (normally with an observer/spotter) with a specific objective. The traditional term for "sniper" is "assassin". Mikhail's role is more support which is why I would lean toward "sharpshooter". But these days, "sharpshooter" and "sniper" are used interchangeably.

[azrael]

Good questions. Very good. I guess we'll have to wait until later in the series.

Though I have the following two thoughts:

1) Kawamori San loves Gundam. Gundam has sharpshooter GMs with enhanced beam rifles.

2) there were no power cables attached to the gunpod; thus decreasing the possibility that it's an energy weapon (though, there's the possibility of having a small thermonuclear reactor or something similar inside, but that'd make the weapon much heavier and more dangerous than it needs to be.)

What about a railgun or linear gun? VFs do generate a large amount of energy. That energy could be used to power a railgun or linear gun. Linear guns seem to be popular in Gundam right now.

[kensei]

I really like the design of the VF-25 more than ever right now. It's like the VF was always meant to use FAST Packs, and almost that of many types. All the parts seem to fit well and look good, unlike the earlier ones where it's like: "Let's find a place to stick it on."

[Radd]

My favourite FAST packs are still the originals, however these new ones are growing on me. Actually, is the armour on Ozma's VF-25 different in episode 2? It is, isn't it? I thought his armour in the first episode was a bit over the top, but I dig the armour in the second episode. Just so I'm clear, he's got Super/Strike armour in the second episode, and "full armour" in the first, right?

[kensei]

Correct. And Luka had a different one yet again, although it seemed to build on the original "lite" FAST pack type, as it's got a huge radome and also a large fin sitting underbelly like the VF-171 in the first ep. The Full Armour version that Ozma used seems to have some sort of advanced radar too, judging to a smaller but prominent radar type protrusion on the back.

Looks like there is heaps of variation in accessories. This is great!

[badboy00z]

My favourite FAST packs are still the originals, however these new ones are growing on me. Actually, is the armour on Ozma's VF-25 different in episode 2? It is, isn't it? I thought his armour in the first episode was a bit over the top, but I dig the armour in the second episode. Just so I'm clear, he's got Super/Strike armour in the second episode, and "full armour" in the first, right?

The one in episode 1 was the full armor and the one in episode 2 was the super pack.

[ChronoReverse]

errrrrrr...sorry about changing the topic, don't know if it was answer, don't want to check 26 pages for this

anyone has a problem with the VF-25 cockpit?? seems a bit lowtech and a downgrade from previews VF's, I mean, from the YF-19 forward, all the cockpits had the nifty full view screen, as well as the VF-17, so why would the VF-25 just have the classic 20th century cockpit with just the canopy view????

any ideas!?

The Battroid mode seems to have the wrap-around view (ep2 8:27 Ozma) but it doesn't seem to be there for the other modes. The whole xgear thing does seem to take up more space (or perhaps the cockpit is smaller?). Perhaps it's one of compromises they had to make for the 25's versatility (with the addons).

[Graham]

My favourite FAST packs are still the originals, however these new ones are growing on me. Actually, is the armour on Ozma's VF-25 different in episode 2? It is, isn't it? I thought his armour in the first episode was a bit over the top, but I dig the armour in the second episode. Just so I'm clear, he's got Super/Strike armour in the second episode, and "full armour" in the first, right?

In episode 1 and the first half of episode 2, Ozma is using the Armored Pack (AKA Full Armour). When he launches again near the end of episode 2, his VF-25S is equipped with the Super Pack.

Graham

[grss1982]

The Battroid mode seems to have the wrap-around view (ep2 8:27 Ozma) but it doesn't seem to be there for the other modes. The whole xgear thing does seem to take up more space (or perhaps the cockpit is smaller?). Perhaps it's one of compromises they had to make for the 25's versatility (with the addons).

Homage to Macross Plus? Too bad Ozma and the Red Bug did'nt have the fast paced brawl like the one Isamu and Guld had in the last part of Macross Plus. :-( I would have loved to see the PBB Punch again.

BTW, was the PBB system ever seen in action in the two episodes thus far?

I wonder what weapon Luka/Luca has since he is the Skull Squadron's ELINT Seeker-type unit, wouldn't that mean that he is unarmed and thus more vulnerable than the rest of the squad.

Edited April 14, 2008 by grss1982

[nemesis_trooper]

Homage to Macross Plus? Too bad Ozma and the Red Bug did'nt have the fast paced brawl like the one Isamu and Guld had in the last part of Macross Plus. :-( I would have loved to see the PBB Punch again.

BTW, was the PBB system ever seen in action in the two episodes thus far?

I wonder what weapon Luka/Luca has since he is the Skull Squadron's ELINT Seeker-type unit, wouldn't that mean that he is unarmed and thus more vulnerable than the rest of the squad.

Dun worry abt Luka, I would bet that he will survive all engagements until 2/3 of the way through the series whereupon he will have a Gundam 00 style Lock-on dramatic death (probably moreso than Kakikazi, given anime these days)

That aside, I think he's the spotter of the team?

[veffidas]

I haven't had the chance to read through the entire thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up yet.

It's been a while since I've read the manga, but, watching episode 2 and noticing the skates, doesn't the X-Gear seem like a throwback of the T-Crush from Mikimoto's Macross 7 Trash?

[sketchley]

That's new to this thread.

I agree. I was reminded of the T-Crush... I'm not sure how related, if at all, the two are. The impression that I got from the 25th anniversary special was that the X-Gear developed out of the real world development of power assist suits. If there is a link between the two, it wasn't mentioned. Perhaps we'll learn more about the history of the X-Gear when a Macross F book gets published... (if must be stressed... Macross 0 having lacked it's own dedicated book.)

[Alastar]

What about a railgun or linear gun? VFs do generate a large amount of energy. That energy could be used to power a railgun or linear gun. Linear guns seem to be popular in Gundam right now.

Yeah that could be a possibility also. Rail cannons/ linear guns need a large source of energy and do heat up a lot. The Gun pod opening could be a way to release the heat thats built up.

But that could also mean it functions more like a Rifle and not a full automatic gun pod....Nice change if thats the case...

Only plus i see to the Private Military Contractors is they don't hold back when using new technology on their VF's. so its not all off the Shelf products. And we get some Diversity also not only with the fast packs.

[ChronoReverse]

Homage to Macross Plus? Too bad Ozma and the Red Bug did'nt have the fast paced brawl like the one Isamu and Guld had in the last part of Macross Plus. :-( I would have loved to see the PBB Punch again.

I wouldn't say it's so much homage as a logical continuation. Since BDI is out, the wraparound view is the best they can do.

It does look like the interface and computer in the VF25 is more advanced now. They were able to pinpoint, target, or zoom seamlessly.

How large is the VF25? The 22 and 19 were quite large (compared to the 11) and the cockpits had tons of space even in fighter mode. The 25's cockpit in comparison seems rather small.

[Mr March]

VF-25 is 15.59 meters tall (includes head lasers) in Battroid Mode and 18.72 meters long in Fighter Mode.

YF-19 is 15.48 meters tall (without cannon) in Battroid Mode and 18.62 meters long in Fighter Mode.

YF-21 is 15.5 meters tall in Battroid Mode and 19.62 meters long in Fighter Mode.

[azrael]

I wouldn't say it's so much homage as a logical continuation. Since BDI is out, the wraparound view is the best they can do.

It does look like the interface and computer in the VF25 is more advanced now. They were able to pinpoint, target, or zoom seamlessly.

How large is the VF25? The 22 and 19 were quite large (compared to the 11) and the cockpits had tons of space even in fighter mode. The 25's cockpit in comparison seems rather small.

It looks like the VF-25 gives a wrap-around imaging (in battroid only) set-up with the infamous front-control panel from fighter mode. Although, I'm gonna need lineart to confirm that.

The VF-25 is longer than the 19 by about 4 m IIRC.

[Alastar]

I wouldn't say it's so much homage as a logical continuation. Since BDI is out, the wraparound view is the best they can do.

It does look like the interface and computer in the VF25 is more advanced now. They were able to pinpoint, target, or zoom seamlessly.

I wouldn't put BDI out as a option. There could be a much more watered down system now that is used for small task and not fully control the fighter. We have technology that reads face muscle movements that release the use of moving your hands to press buttons to bring up info on ur hud and what not. So suing a BDI type system wouldn't be surprising. We are only human only so much we can do and taken in at one time. Being able to mentally being able to transform or call a wing mate wouldn't be so bad.

[ChronoReverse]

I wouldn't put BDI out as a option. There could be a much more watered down system now that is used for small task and not fully control the fighter. We have technology that reads face muscle movements that release the use of moving your hands to press buttons to bring up info on ur hud and what not. So suing a BDI type system wouldn't be surprising. We are only human only so much we can do and taken in at one time. Being able to mentally being able to transform or call a wing mate wouldn't be so bad.

You're thinking BDS (Brain Direct System Interface?)? BDI is Brain Direct Imaging. Since they're using a wraparound screen and their eyes, I'd say they're not using BDI

As for the control part, even in Zero, they already had eye-tracking, so more than 50 years later, who knows what level of control they have without resorting the more problematic BDS. It's certain that the control is beyond merely touchscreen since the SMS pilots were able to locate, track and zoom with their HUD with the appearance of only a glance.

[mikeszekely]

As for the control part, even in Zero, they already had eye-tracking,

They had it in Zero because, as far as I know, we already have something like that on real-world fighters.

[TehPW]

They had it in Zero because, as far as I know, we already have something like that on real-world fighters.

Thus why the 1st battroids HAD guns on the head. It wasn't something they did much at all in the original series but then again i doubt the idea of eye tracked weapons was even considered in macross or real-world military aviation in 1981. Heck, Vector thrust paddles probably was just a idea then... Zero uses all the bang because in real-world terms, the inpsiration already existed then...

[azrael]

They had it in Zero because, as far as I know, we already have something like that on real-world fighters.

We have similar systems with the HMCS or HDMS as well as lots of eye-tracking studies and system (in fact, one that is very similar). Most likely (i.e. VF-1 onwards) have computer-aided targeting for faster acquisition. I'm not sure I would want to track an Itano circus....

[mikeszekely]

I'm not sure I would want to track an Itano circus....

Very true, but (in defiance of pretty much every Ace Combat game) real world air combat has become more about shooting one or two missiles from a few miles away, so for now fighter pilots don't have to worry about an Itano circus.

...Yet.

But yeah, it makes sense to let the computer track targets faster than than a human pilot can in a fictional universe where swarms of missiles are so common even civilian craft that shoot speakers instead of bullets pack a few missiles.

[grss1982]

Very true, but (in defiance of pretty much every Ace Combat game) real world air combat has become more about shooting one or two missiles from a few miles away, so for now fighter pilots don't have to worry about an Itano circus.

...Yet.

But yeah, it makes sense to let the computer track targets faster than than a human pilot can in a fictional universe where swarms of missiles are so common even civilian craft that shoot speakers instead of bullets pack a few missiles.

A feel sorry for the modern day fighter pilot who will be the first to experience the effects of an Itano Circus.

Anyways,...just a thought when Alto's Gun Pod ran out of ammo why didn't he reload? Would this suggest that the VF-25 uses the old school VF-1-like gun pod that needs to be reloaded at a F.O.B. and not the new one's like the VF-19's GU-15, which uses clips of ammo and can be reloaded by the VF itself?

Speaking of missiles, I've read somewhere here in MW something about the VF-25 being "thin" compared to previous VFs. Am I to assume that the VF-25 has no internal missile bays like the VF-19 & VF-22 then?

ALSO...

Just had a thought that if the technology in Macross mirrors some of the advances in the real world wouldn't it be a safe bet to say that in MF's 2059 timeline the roles of the various fighters that appeared since Macross Plus are like:

F-15 & F-14 = VF-19 & VF-22 | Since they are expensive to produce and maintain, only a small number of them are in service, thus leading presumably to development of the VF-25. (I'm taking a wild guess on this one.)

F-18 Super Hornet; F/A-18 Hornet & F-16 = VF-25 | Since they are multi-role/all-around fighters (thanks to the different packs it uses) and are (I'm assuming) inexpensive to produce and maintain. They also inherited technology (I'm assuming again) that are derived from the VF-19 & VF-22.

VF-17 = No idea what real world fighter it reflects.

Edited April 15, 2008 by grss1982

[Heron]

A feel sorry for the modern day fighter pilot who will be the first to experience the effects of an Itano Circus.

Anyways,...just a thought when Alto's Gun Pod ran out of ammo why didn't he reload? Would this suggest that the VF-25 uses the old school VF-1-like gun pod that needs to be reloaded at a F.O.B. and not the new one's like the VF-19's GU-15, which uses clips of ammo and can be reloaded by the VF itself?

Speaking of missiles, I've read somewhere here in MW something about the VF-25 being "thin" compared to previous VFs. Am I to assume that the VF-25 has no internal missile bays like the VF-19 & VF-22 then?

ALSO...

Just had a thought that if the technology in Macross mirrors some of the advances in the real world wouldn't it be a safe bet to say that in MF's 2059 timeline the roles of the various fighters that appeared since Macross Plus are like:

F-15 & F-14 = VF-19 & VF-22 | Since they are expensive to produce and maintain, only a small number of them are in service, thus leading presumably to development of the VF-25. (I'm taking a wild guess on this one.)

F-18 Super Hornet; F/A-18 Hornet & F-16 = VF-25 | Since they are multi-role/all-around fighters (thanks to the different packs it uses) and are (I'm assuming) inexpensive to produce and maintain. They also inherited technology (I'm assuming again) that are derived from the VF-19 & VF-22.

VF-17 = No idea what real world fighter it reflects.

The VF-19 and VF-22 (as well as the YF-19 and YF-22) are based on the USAF's Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program YF-22 and Northrop YF-23. The YF-19 was also partially based off the Sukhoi Su-47.

The VF-25 has more in common with a Variable geometry fighter than an F-18/F-16...I would say it has DVI, Combat AI, AESA Radar and other 5th and greater generation type avionics.

VF-17/171's are based of the F-117 Nighthawk...

Edited April 15, 2008 by Heron

[Graham]

Anyways,...just a thought when Alto's Gun Pod ran out of ammo why didn't he reload? Would this suggest that the VF-25 uses the old school VF-1-like gun pod that needs to be reloaded at a F.O.B. and not the new one's like the VF-19's GU-15, which uses clips of ammo and can be reloaded by the VF itself?

Speaking of missiles, I've read somewhere here in MW something about the VF-25 being "thin" compared to previous VFs. Am I to assume that the VF-25 has no internal missile bays like the VF-19 & VF-22 then?

While Alto has some flight training and seems to be a naturally skilled pilot, he has not been specifically trained on the VF-25 systems yet, so even assuming that the VF-25 does carry spare magazines for the gunpod, he probably wouldn't know that and wouldn't know which controls to operate to reload the gunpod.

Also, even if the VF-25 carries no spare gunpod ammo, if Alto had known how to operate the VF-25 properly he could have used the internal wingroot/hip lasers to attack the red bug, once his gunpod clicked empty.

As for internal missiles, we don't know yet. However, in the Deculture edition, when Gilliam flies into the city after ejecting his Super Pack, he is shown firing two missiles at the red bug. These missiles had to come from somewhere and no missiles were shown being carried on the 6 wing hard points. So, either there are internal missile bays, or it was a continuity/animation error.

Graham

[azrael]

Speaking of missiles, I've read somewhere here in MW something about the VF-25 being "thin" compared to previous VFs. Am I to assume that the VF-25 has no internal missile bays like the VF-19 & VF-22 then?

It doesn't help that the story behind the VF-25 is that it is undergoing performance evaluations. So for now, we just have to wait and see. Mikhail's sniper gun pod may be a new gunpod meant for all specialized VFs. The knife could be just specific to Ozma's VF-25S.

Just had a thought that if the technology in Macross mirrors some of the advances in the real world wouldn't it be a safe bet to say that in MF's 2059 timeline the roles of the various fighters that appeared since Macross Plus are like:

...*snip*

Right now, it's anybody's guess as to why the VF-25 is replacing the VF-171. Or why we even have the VF-171 in the first place. Right now, we only have the production reason from the Compendium (Kawamori didn't want the VF-19 because it looked too "hero").

[ChronoReverse]

For which I'm glad actually. I'd be really sad to see the VF-19 being used as cannon fodder TT

[grss1982]

For which I'm glad actually. I'd be really sad to see the VF-19 being used as cannon fodder TT

I cringe at the thought of VF-19s being pwned by the Varja.

BTW, props to "UN Spacy" for providing a possible pic of the battroid mode of Luca's green VF:

NOTE: Click for larger version. 56Kers beware.

I guess the mystery on what Luca's Battroid mode looks like is finally revealed. Is it just me or does it look a bit different than Mikhail's unit.

Edited April 15, 2008 by grss1982

[Zinjo]

I cringe at the thought of VF-19s being pwned by the Varja.

BTW, props to "UN Spacy" for providing a possible pic of the battroid mode of Luca's green VF:

NOTE: Click for larger version. 56Kers beware.

I guess the mystery on what Luca's Battroid mode looks like is finally revealed. Is it just me or does it look a bit different than Mikhail's unit.

I said earlier it had a different head, but I was wrong, it has a standard "A" type head, like Michel's.

[l_e_m]

Does anyone think that some of the Ghost AI is featured in the VF-25?

The advanced optical system used so far seems to be completely animated. In fact, we don't see pilots use any control inputs extensively except the HOTAS.

If this optical system works the way I think it does, it can overcome nearly any optical deficiency of the pilot. Michael is without his glasses when piloting.

[Mr March]

You mean "automated"

The official statistics for the YF-19 from Macross Plus make specific mention of Super AI systems as part of the variable fighter control suite. I think it's likely the next generation fighters include similar technology. The Ghost fighters, by virtue of being unmanned, likely have a much broader AI control system than manned fighters like the VF-25.

The image magnification feature and internal cockpit holographic displays could still be pilot-controlled to some extent. The actual magnification system might be automated, but perhaps it requires the pilot to actually look in that direction and concentrate on it for additional display information to be activated. We know from Macross Zero (circa 2008) that the helmets contain laser tracking systems for the pilot's eyes. In the much more advanced 2059 era, it's not a leap to assume the internal AI control computer knows when the pilot is "squinting" to get a closer look at something. The computer registers pilot interest by eye movements and bang, instant magnification without any hands-on control.

[Sorata]

Wow thats the best explanation for that I have heard yet my hats off to you Mr March.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The YF-19 was also partially based off the Sukhoi Su-47.

No it wasn't. From what I remember, Kawamori was actually surprised to see the SU-47 years after he had designed the YF-19. Primary design influence of the YF-19 is the X-29. Hell if you want a random rumor, we can say Kawamori's head exploded once he saw the Gijoe Conquest X-30, and just had to make it transform into a robot with a kite symbol on it.

Since Mikhail and Luka have different armnaments than Alto's base VF-25, it makes me wonder if he himself will get something unique to make his VF-25 stand apart from all the others.

[Smiley424]

I really like how it seems that the VF-25 can take on different packs for different roles. So far we've seen a Super Pack, Heavy Weapons Pack (a la GBP), Sharpshooter Pack (though we don't get a clear pic of Michel's valk so he could just have different gunpod though I would assume some more specialized sensors to go along with it) and Elint Pack.

It also seems that there is some tactile feedback in the control stick when Altoh goes to pick up Ranka with the valk. While it does add some tension to the scene what about after when Altoh is escaping? Does the system automatically lock itself so that if Altoh is holding the control stick tightly (which I assume he does as he is doing some crazy moves to try and escape the Vajra) he doesn't crush what he's holding?