Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[Master Dex]

I can't seem to find it, but what is the date for when the series 'officially' starts, I'd like to know.

As for all of this, I can see both ways how Frontier could be connected to Megaroad 1 and Macross Zero. The spiral designs on the Vajra make me wonder if they have a related to AFOS from Macross Zero. There was a lot of mystery left behind with that, it would be nice to learn what exactly the Birdman was. At the same time it could have been the Vajra that caused Megaroad 1's disappearance.

There are many possibilities, only time can tell.

[Zinjo]

I'm leaning toward the notion that Kawamori is leading us to a final resolution to the whole Megaroad mystery with PC overtones, that were sparked with the Birdman from Macross Zero.

I doubt we'll see many if any of the original characters, after all it is 50 years after the start of Space War 1.

As with all Kawamori controlled Macross productions, one resolution tends to spark a new mystery or at least an open ending, to keep us wanting more.

I doubt very much the fleets were sent on the same course on some sort of SAR mission, but rather followed the same general course of the Megaroad 01 and had prepared to deal with whatever was responsible for its disappearance. Humanity does tend to become somewhat full of itself when it advances and possibly figured with the VF-25 they had a powerful enough weapons system to defeat whatever was out there. The Megaroad only had the paultry VF-4 to work with.

The most logical course for humanity is to travel to the galactic core where stars are closer together and thus have a greater chance of finding habitable worlds to colonize.

A part of me is expecting the old standby "surprise" that the Varja are actually controlled by the descendants of the Megaroad populace who stumbled upon a PC outpost 40 years earlier.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Zinjo

[TehPW]

A part of me is expecting the old standby "surprise" that the Varja are actually controlled by the descendants of the Megaroad populace who stumbled upon a PC outpost 40 years earlier.

Certainly not without some unknown hostility, considering the Varja actively Head Hunted every VF they engaged. (though maybe, possible some pilots could have punched out, though ejecting into space around a exploding aircraft makes me more to think any SAR attemps will find vaccum exposed dead pilots regardless. we could hope Froaty Head has been watching BSG for inspiration)

if the Varja are somehow related to Megaroad-01, certainly they not human anymore...

[mikeszekely]

Battroid aside, I'm a little disappointed that the VF-25 looks a bit like the VF-1/VF-0. Between Macross Plus and M3 Kawamori cranked out a lot of interesting designs, but since then, he's cranked out the SW-XA1, the VF-0, and now the VF-25.

[chrono]

It's designed to grab the older fans and newer fans. Which is why it's such a mishmash of design styles. He had to be cross-generational or M:F will turn out like the newer Yamoto anime did. Liked, but generally reviled.

Of course it doesn't help that the entire chronology got crushed together further screwing things up with alternate designers, who thought that their designs were for ONLY a game, having their designs throw in.

Edited March 15, 2008 by chrono

[Master Dex]

Personally I love the VF-25. I do notice it is a lot like the VF-1, but the VF-1 was one of my all time favorites in design. I am an Aerospace Engineering student (focusing on spacecraft) so this kind of thing really is what gets me interested. I can kind of see the VF-25 as a cross between the VF-1 design and the VF-19 in the transformation in some ways. I just like the VF-25 all over now. Before that I was really interested in the VF-22, but now I just can't wait for more episodes of Frontier to see more of this plane.

Also, seriously, when do new episodes start?

[Mr March]

I still don't see in the VF-25 much at all of the VF-1 except the red/white color scheme and the variable geometry wings. As far as lineage within Macross, it's more SV-51 and YF-19 than anything else other than new elements. As far as real world inspiration, the VF-25 is definitely styled after eastern European fighters whereas the VF-1 was clearly inspired by the western F-14.

[Zinjo]

Of course it doesn't help that the entire chronology got crushed together further screwing things up with alternate designers, who thought that their designs were for ONLY a game, having their designs throw in.

M3, VF-X and VF-X2's variable aircraft were all designed by Kawamori himself. Miyataki designed the captial ships and enemy mecha, so unless it's a game that is outside the Nue continuity, they were all designed by the original SDFM mecha design team.

I am not sure how you figured the chronology "got crushed together"? The continuity has seen some retcon over the years, but not enough to completely confuse the fans.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Zinjo

[mikeszekely]

I still don't see in the VF-25 much at all of the VF-1 except the red/white color scheme and the variable geometry wings. As far as lineage within Macross, it's more SV-51 and YF-19 than anything else other than new elements. As far as real world inspiration, the VF-25 is definitely styled after eastern European fighters whereas the VF-1 was clearly inspired by the western F-14.

There's more than a color scheme and VG wings. When I first saw a pic of the VF-25, I thought it was a VF-0. They'd have very similar silhouettes.

[Mr March]

I don't see a similar silhouette. The VF-0 is narrow and the fuselage has almost no angle from front to back, just like the old VF-1. The VF-25 has a clear wedge shape with the hull extending as a wing. The VF-25 has a fuselage shape very reminiscent of the VF-19F/S. The VF-25 also has prominent vertical stabilizers that angle out past the body, unlike the VF-0 that has no lateral overhang. Another major difference in silhouette would be the nose itself. The VF-25 nose is again a wedge in silhouette; the VF-0 nose actually narrows at the mid point.

[Master Dex]

Like I said, I see it as more of a combination of the VF-1 and VF-19 designs. It has the look and feel of the 19 with a general shape of the VF-1. That's just how I feel about it though, for all I know Kawamori never meant it to be inspired by the VF-1 at all.

[Final Vegeta]

I think the VF-25 in Fighter mode is more similar to the VF-3000 than the VF-1.

FV

[Mr March]

Granted, we all may be concentrating on different features of the Valkyries. I tend to think those that see VF-1 (more specifically, VF-0) are largely concentrating on the main wings and their similar leading and trailing edges. Personally, I saw SV-51 the most when I first looked upon the VF-25; that nose, forward fuselage and forward intakes are unmistakable. The VF-25 Battroid strongly felt YF-19-like at first glance. Upon closer examination (and the further availability of pictures) there's a lot more new and unique to the VF-25, most pointedly the transformation. As far as the VF-25 resembling other Valkyries, I see SV-51, YF-19/VF-19F/S and even a little VF-5000, most notably the upper torso in Battroid mode.

Looking at the Macross Frontier anime, I came up with this very quick silhouette comparison (as luck would have it, the VF-0 and VF-25 are almost exactly the same length; 18.69 and 18.72 meters respectively):

Edited March 16, 2008 by Mr March

[chrono]

M3, VF-X and VF-X2's variable aircraft were all designed by Kawamori himself. Miyataki designed the captial ships and enemy mecha, so unless it's a game that is outside the Nue continuity, they were all designed by the original SDFM mecha design team.

Since you design for a game, the designs are for a game. It allows you to design material that would never be considered for an anime. (design freedom) The original Macross concepts show this as fact because some of those designs were only slightly changed and then thrown into VF-X. Which is now considered 'official'. So a series of designs, even by the same designer, will end-up in a mish-mash of styles, and in this case it's because of Kawamori's "growth" as a designer. Besides there is always multiple designers on any game and they only did the materials that they were credited for.

I am not sure how you figured the chronology "got crushed together"? The continuity has seen some retcon over the years, but not enough to completely confuse the fans.

For the people who have not seen every bit of the chronology that is the current retconned Macross they will be confused as to why the designs are like that. Especially any of the newer ships and city designs, because of the lack of Miyataki influence in the designs. So for them M:F will have to stand by itself in many ways. Even if they only saw Macross & M7 there will still be a mild confusion over the designs.

Edited March 16, 2008 by chrono

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Maybe the VF-171 is a retrofitted VF-17. Like the F-14D® was a retrofitted/remanufactured F-14A made into an F-14D. Basically same body but many different enhancements. New engines, radar, avionics, weapons, and other enhancements could make the 171 a totally different beast than the 17 despite looking very similar.

[azrael]

Maybe the VF-171 is a retrofitted VF-17. Like the F-14D® was a retrofitted/remanufactured F-14A made into an F-14D. Basically same body but many different enhancements. New engines, radar, avionics, weapons, and other enhancements could make the 171 a totally different beast than the 17 despite looking very similar.

This we can't really say for sure. The notes on it say it was "based on the VF-17". What they mean by that is unfortunately, not really clear.

[mikeszekely]

Granted, we all may be concentrating on different features of the Valkyries. I tend to think those that see VF-1 (more specifically, VF-0) are largely concentrating on the main wings and their similar leading and trailing edges. Personally, I saw SV-51 the most when I first looked upon the VF-25; that nose, forward fuselage and forward intakes are unmistakable. The VF-25 Battroid strongly felt YF-19-like at first glance. Upon closer examination (and the further availability of pictures) there's a lot more new and unique to the VF-25, most pointedly the transformation. As far as the VF-25 resembling other Valkyries, I see SV-51, YF-19/VF-19F/S and even a little VF-5000, most notably the upper torso in Battroid mode.

Looking at the Macross Frontier anime, I came up with this very quick silhouette comparison (as luck would have it, the VF-0 and VF-25 are almost exactly the same length; 18.69 and 18.72 meters respectively):

I'm glad you put that up, and I think you're absolutely right, when you look at some things you can see the similarities, but when you pay attention to other details, they do look very different. Yeah, the wings have that VF-1/VF-0 look, and while there are differences, but actually what really clicked in my head are those, I dunno, vents, where the fuselage connects to the main body. They're always on the Battroid's chest.

Battroid totally looks like an SV-51 with smaller shoulders and head, and wings that fold back like a beetle instead of folding up like a birds. They both have the same slightly out thrust pelvis, sort of zig-zagging torso, kneecaps that jut upward, and little stubby chunks hanging off their their hips.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

This we can't really say for sure. The notes on it say it was "based on the VF-17". What they mean by that is unfortunately, not really clear.

I got a better one:its like the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, based on the F/A-18A-D Legacy series, with similar components and appearance, but a new plane.

[Zinjo]

Since you design for a game, the designs are for a game. It allows you to design material that would never be considered for an anime. (design freedom) The original Macross concepts show this as fact because some of those designs were only slightly changed and then thrown into VF-X. Which is now considered 'official'. So a series of designs, even by the same designer, will end-up in a mish-mash of styles, and in this case it's because of Kawamori's "growth" as a designer. Besides there is always multiple designers on any game and they only did the materials that they were credited for.

CG modellers are not designers, their job is to translate a design image into a 3D representation (within the capabilities of the console hardware), not create new designs. There may be "background" designers tasked with designing enviroments, landscapes, etc..., but they are not the same as the hero / enemy aircraft designers or the captial ship designers. I don't see any mish-mashing of designs. I only see cg models that are blocky due to the limitations of the rendering hardware of the console.

For the people who have not seen every bit of the chronology that is the current retconned Macross they will be confused as to why the designs are like that. Especially any of the newer ships and city designs, because of the lack of Miyataki influence in the designs. So for them M:F will have to stand by itself in many ways. Even if they only saw Macross & M7 there will still be a mild confusion over the designs.

With the exception of the battleship destoyed in episode one, all the ships we've seen are Miyataki designs from M7 or VF-X2. The only confusion from fans would be from those who've only seen SDFM and Macross Plus. Both of those shows never dealt with the PC history directly or the concept of Anima Spiritia.

Since none of the series' prior to Mac 7 deal with Colony fleets, it isn't all that difficult to accept that in 40 years mankind's colony fleets would look the way they do in the Macross universe.

However, I do agree with the NUNS and various other changes from the SDFM era, this series is definitely designed to be exported as a series in the Macross universe, without the name "Macross" in the title (since HG owns the trademark on the name in the West at the moment). It is distinctly different from any show that could be disputed, ironically the same holds for HG's new series The Shadow Chronicles. They go out of their way to avoid any direct infringement on BigWest's intellectual property owned designs.

[Mark Nguyen]

Yes, which likely means we'll never see a VF-1 in this series. Shame, really. OTOH, they ARE using the Q-Rau, which is easily identified as a variation on the SDFM original.

Regarding the F-18 and VF-17/171, as noted earlier the F-18 E/F series are almost entirely new planes with only a general similarity to the original A-D variants. They only share some avionics components, but otherwise are entirely different aircraft. They are only still called F-18s for political reasons. This is contrary to the F-14Ds, which are indeed mostly upgraded earlier airframes with better engines and avionics - the latter to enable the F-14 to carry bombs, thus expanding its role from "mere" carrier-based interceptor.

And there was indeed a scout fleet in M7 besides the Stargazer. In episode 26 or 27, Macross 7 sends a small fleet of frigates to investigate Varauta. They are quickly destroyed by Grabil as he passes by.

Mark

Edited March 17, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[Zinjo]

Yes, which likely means we'll never see a VF-1 in this series. Shame, really. OTOH, they ARE using the Q-Rau, which is easily identified as a variation on the SDFM original.

Mark

True, however if the show sees our shores, it may be BW way of "testing the waters" to see how HG will react. I suspect there would be no reaction or some toothless C&D letter, because HG has much of its assets tied up in the SC series and probably couldn't afford a court case either financially or the ultimate court decision on a challenge to BigWest's intellectual property rights. Afterall, IP rights are all the rage in hollywood right now...

[VF5SS]

What about this VF-1

[Mr March]

AC comes in for the win. Nice catch!

[VF5SS]

It's on the top of the school so I imagine it'll be in the show anytime they do an exterior shot.

[Zinjo]

As I've already stated, BW has every right to use the designs it owns and any Western claims to it would have to be proven in court. That is where BW could produce their awarded IP rights under Japanese law and essentially settle once and for all who owns what. As well, by proxy, what Tatsunoko was legally able to sell or license.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Zinjo

[Graham]

I have a feeling Bandai Visual (not Big West), is going to be pushing Frontier for an international release. We shall see.

Graham

[Mr March]

I live in hope

[Beltane70]

As do I!

[Sorata]

I hope so too but if not I just hope they release it on Bluray and not DVD. Bluray uses the same region code in the US and Japan so the Movies and Games using it can run on either country's hardware. Which is a bonus to us importers if they make a PS3 Macross game.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Sorata

[Zinjo]

I have a feeling Bandai Visual (not Big West), is going to be pushing Frontier for an international release. We shall see.

Graham

Well BV has been BW home video partner for over 20 years now.

The only limitation they will face is the name "Macross". HG owns the western trademark on the name (got it after Tatsunoko had it's a** handed to them in Japanese court in late 2002). So they'll either have to pay for usage or fight the grounds upon which HG was granted the trademark (the preferred method IMO).

The sidestep is to release it without the Macross name, which is also possible.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Zinjo

[Graham]

All Bandai have to do is digitally add in some V antennas on the mecha and rename it as Gundam Frontier.

GRaham

[Mr March]

M Frontier or Frontier M?

[Aegis!]

All Bandai have to do is digitally add in some V antennas on the mecha and rename it as Gundam Frontier.

GRaham

You do realize that every time you say that , a baby Froating Head looses its froatingness, right ?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Aegis!

[Duke Togo]

I am curious as to exactly what they can and can't do with the Macross name.

[Zinjo]

I am curious as to exactly what they can and can't do with the Macross name.

Well since HG owns the trademark, they are legally entitled to insist that all "Macross" terms be removed from the show or that BV pay some sort of royalty for it's use (knowing them, they'd probably insist that they be able to shoehorn it into Robowreck somehow). The real question remains, what would happen if BW challenged that trademark? They have a legally binding ruling giving them IP rights over the show. Tatsunoko only owns the animated series, not the material that went into it.

Either way, BV could re-name it "Frontier" and the show would not loose any real content. Hell, for all we know they may have shot scenes with and without the "Macross" name in it, just to get it into the Western market.

Personally I could live with the franchise re-named as "Protoculture Legacy" for Western audiences, since that is the general theme of the franchise anyway. From my inquiries, I've seen no trademarking of the term "Protoculture"....

Edited March 20, 2008 by Zinjo