Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[T.V.]

I'm still wondering where the VF-19s and VF-22s are. Apart from the "we need new shiny from Kawamori to make the toys sell better" angle, there's not much to go on. It doesn't make sense at all in universe.

Well, for one thing, technological evolution doesn't have to have a steady linear pace.

Infact, it's rarely linear over a prolonged time period, because requirements and resources are constantly in flux.

To put it more concretely, changing political and economical developments have a big impact on the fielding of new designs.

For example, during WWII the pace of military equipment development was greatly accelerated.

Aircraft roughly doubled performance in 5 years time and tanks grew from 5.000 to >50.000 kg.

Never before, or again, did technology for war-time use evolve at such a rapid pace.

During the Cold War, developments slowed a bit due to changing spending priorities.

After the Cold War, the peace dividend resulted in a massive drop in defense expenditure, slowing down the evolutionary pace and changing its direction.

Additionally, program costs mounted due to the increased technical complexity and developmental overhead needed for each subsequent replacement generation. Platforms have to have a longer lifespan and replace a plethora of older models to remain economical sustainable when budgets don't rise proportionally.

All in all it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that technological developments in the Macross universe are also thusly affected, resulting in changing paces and direction regarding VF evolution.

The "we need new shiny from Kawamori to make the toys sell better" angle isn't all that different from war-time developmental needs.

Both require an accelerated developmental pace sustained over a limited time period, be it for war or an anime supported by merchandise.

Art imitates life. Sometimes even unintentionally.

Edit:

Mr. March responded already before I knew it.

Edited March 10, 2008 by T.V.

[Graham]

Although the VF-17 was not that maneuverable an atmospheric fighter mainly due to it's small control surfaces, in space the VF-17 wasn't too far behind the VF-19 and VF-22 in capability. In fact due to the huge number of verniers (30+), it was probabl

I can easily see the VF-171 being just as capable as early marks of VF-19 and VF-22, perhaps even more so at no doubt a much cheaper cost.

Graham

[Mr March]

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. The VF-19 Excalibur and VF-22 Sturmvogel II were far ahead of the VF-17D Nightmare in terms of performance. It is true that the VF-17 was a dedicated space variable fighter and it is true that for it's class, the VF-17 was a high performance VF. In fact, even though the VF-17 was much heavier than the VF-11 (11.85 tons versus 9.0 tons), the VF-17 engines made the Nightmare much faster and more maneuverable. But compared to the next generation fighters, the VF-17 was far behind, even in space.

The VF-11C has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 6.33 while the VF-17D Nightmare has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 9.28. By comparison, the VF-19F Excalibur has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 16.96 and the VF-22 Sturmvogel thrust-to-weight ratio of 13.61.

The only advantage the VF-17 has over next generation variable fighters is solely against the VF-22 in the atmosphere. The cooling problems with the VF-22 engines limit it's thrust to a maximum of 60% in the atmosphere, dropping the VF-22 thrust-to-weight ratio to 8.17 in the atmosphere.

Edit:

Mr. March responded already before I knew it.

Great minds...and all that

Edited March 10, 2008 by Mr March

[Dendrobius]

It's not so much the VF-25 itself that bothers me. On the official website, it's stated that performance wise the 25 can be seen as THE successor to the 19/22 series by improvements in transformation efficiency, etc. That's fine and dandy.

A quick look at VF developments:

VF-0 = Rollout 2005, initial deployment 2007, never mass produced.

VF-1 = Rollout, initial deployment, mass production 2008 (benefitted a lot from the VF-0 program though)

VF-4 = Rollout 2010, initial deployment 2012, replaced VF-11 2020 (roughly 10 years between VF-1 and VF-4)

VF-11 = Rollout ?, initial deployment ?, replaced VF-4 2030 (roughly 10 years there again)

VF-19 = Rollout 2039, initial deployment by 2046 on Mac7 (so roughly 16 years there)

VF-171 = SOMEHOW rolls out, deploys, AND replaces the 11 and/or the 19 by 2054, all in the space of less than 13 years

What really bugs me is where the 171 popped up from. As I've said, the timeframe doesn't make sense. The 19 was already accepted into service at the end of Mac7 as a direct replacement for the 11. OK, let's say something went really wrong. So we're now in 2046, both candidates from Supernova are found to be lemons. What does UNS have? They've still got VF-11s by the bucketloads, and a few mucho expensive VF-17s (mucho expensive I'm assuming from the fact that we see not a heck of a lot of them onboard Mac7). They need a stopgap main line fighter right now. So they somehow manage to develop a derivative of the expensive bugger, test, and deploy en mass...all within 13 years.

If you argue that it's a war situation, well, why is it that the 25 which is obviously superior to the 171, is stated on the official website to be a successor performance wise to the 19/22 and NOT the 171, which implies that the 171 is inferior in performance to the 19/22? That might account for the hugely accelerated development cycle if it's war and the 171 needed to be cranked out NOW, but we're not exactly seeing a war footing in Frontier.

If you argue that it's peacetime and thus they just needed something better/more versatile than the VF-11, what's with the hasty development cycle and deployment of something that isn't as good as the 19/22, instead of taking their time to iron out any wrinkles that did come up after deployment?

[Mr March]

Well first off, let's start with where you went wrong on the time line

VF-0 = Rollout 2005, initial deployment 2007, never mass produced.

VF-1 = Rollout, initial deployment, mass production 2008 (benefitted a lot from the VF-0 program though)

VF-4 = Rollout 2010, initial deployment 2012, replaced VF-1 2020 (12 years between VF-1 and VF-4)

VF-5000 = Rollout 2018, mass production 2020 (replaces VF-4 sometime in the 2020s)

VF-11 = Rollout 2028, replaces VF-5000 in 2030

VF-17 = development 2026, first flight 2035, estimated deployment time between 2035-2038

VF-19 = official adoption 2041 (YF-19 first flight 2034, Super Nova AVF ends 2040), possible initial deployment 2045

Now as for the rest, you do realize the VF-171 is basically a VF-17 with minor changes, yes? The differences between the VF-17 and the VF-171 amount to no more than the differences between the YF-19/VF-19A and the VF-19F. Ergo, the VF-171 was not a variable fighter designed from the ground up (read previous post) and thus typical "NEW" VF development time frames would not be applicable to the VF-171.

We also know from official text on the subject that the VF-171 does not approach the performance levels of the VF-19/VF-22 just as the VF-17 did not (again, see my post above). Hence, for whatever reason the UN Spacy chose to go with a re-designed VF-17, named it the VF-171 and now had a main variable fighter superior to the old VF-11 but not as good as the VF-19/VF-22. Why did the UN Spacy (eventually becoming the New UN Spacy) choose to go the VF-171 route? Perhaps because of cost, politics, manufacturing, all of the above? We don't know because we've had only one episode so far (once again, see post above).

Edited March 10, 2008 by Mr March

[Dendrobius]

Hmm, I did forget about the VF-5000, good point. That shrinks down the timeframe somewhat, but overall it doesn't make much of a difference in my point that VF development gets longer and longer. Also, I wouldn't count in the VF-17 since I'm looking at main line fighters, not special ops/attack ones, or else we'd need to look at the VA-3 and the VF-14 as well.

Well, YF19 to VF19 took about six years, and that was only to initial limited production. So 2046 at the earliest + 6 years gives 2052 for possible initial limited production. So 7 years for mass production. Starts to fit, starts to fit.

Pity, it either implies that the Supernova planes were all lemons in actual service, or insanely stupidly expensive which still makes them lemons since they were meant to be the next gen main line fighter and obviously budget is something they need to stick to too.

[Zinjo]

Who is to say the events of VF-X2 didn't spark a civil war?

Considering if there were a civil war among the colonies, that would eat up a "LOT" of hardware in a very short space of time. Now in the wake of such a war, whether the colonies all did or did not ally themselves with the Earth again, a reformation of some sort would result. Likely starting with Spacy. Now when humanity has to continue it's efforts to colonize the galaxy as well as rebuild it's space navy, with a likely shortage of manpower, it isn't all that difficult to conclude that upgrading of existing designs would be faster and cheaper than to create a series of new fighters.

It is a possibility that if such an event occured that the VF-25 could be the first "new" fighter design developed since the conflict.

This is all speculation, but it lends itself to canonizing the VF-X2 story as well as the presence of Koenig Monster in the new show and the reformed NUNS. The development pace of variable fighters may well have been stunted due to an internal conflict, such as a civil war or large insurrection that tied up resources for a time.

[Sumdumgai]

In addition to what Mr. March and Zinjo posted.

The VF-171 could be primarily a colony fleet primary valkyrie, much like the VF-14 was heavily used in colony fleets (particularly fleets with lots of zentraedi). If it's weapons payload is like the VF-17, you've got a gunpod, multiple lasers to use in any mode, internal missile launchers, and the 171 also has missile hardpoints for extra firepower. It may even have the ability to use that beam-cannon accesory that Gamlin was so fond of blasting "grin man" with (forgot the name of "Mr beauty").

As the standard cannon fodder fighter, assuming it has the same weapons as the 17, it has a lot more firepower than the VF-11 had (gunpod, headlaser), and is able to use more weapons in more modes than the 19 (just try using the forward aimed lasers in gerwalk or battroid).

Also there could be the problem of pilots not being able to handle something as powerful as the 19. I'm sure they ironed out a lot of problems before it went into production, but don't forget that they lost a LOT of test pilots to the YF-19. It wouldn't be Max and Mirias flying the VF-19 cannon fodders, it would be standard pilots.

Just dont call me "brother Sum", Mr. March. My teeth aren't bad like that. Yes, Kung Fu Hustle reference. I love that movie.

[Macross007]

Also there could be the problem of pilots not being able to handle something as powerful as the 19. I'm sure they ironed out a lot of problems before it went into production, but don't forget that they lost a LOT of test pilots to the YF-19. It wouldn't be Max and Mirias flying the VF-19 cannon fodders, it would be standard pilots.

That makes a lot of sense for me. The number of crappy and normal pilots (the poor ones in the Macross Frontier's first episode for example) outnumbered for sure the brilliant ones. So why spending such money on state of the art variable fighters like the VF-19/22 when UN Spacy surely knows that a majority of its pilots cannot handle such babies ? Only brilliant pilots like Dyson can.

So logically,

Crappy and normal pilots (the majority) get : VF-11, VF-171

Brilliant pilots (the minority) get : VF-19, VF-22, VF-25

Edited March 10, 2008 by Macross007

[Mark Nguyen]

Mission plans could have changed, too. While we only saw a grand total of five military-use VF-19s in Macross 7 (Docker's 19S, Voldick and Matthews in their 19Fs, and the two unnamed newbies who replaced them for a very short period of time), we don't know for sure just how common they are otherwise. I think there is a specific divide between colony fleets and pure military forces, with the former being a little lower on the totem pole for the shiniest new toys.

So when Diamond force got transferred to City 7 defence and they needed a new elite team, of course they'd nab the latest ones and Emerald Force was born. It's not like they got a shipment in from Earth; they apparently tested out the Three Star manfuacturing lines by building Docker's plane first (in the breifly-seen light blue scheme) and then rounding out his squad with two 19Fs. Still, they didn't set about building 19s wholesale and replacing whole squadrons, even though they had the capability; but if you could build three VF-11s for the cost of one VF-19, you'd naturally do that. The VF-25 may be the main NUNS fighter in military squadrons, but the mere colony fleets have to be stuck with the more numerous and economical VF-171. I hope that when we inevitably see the Macross Galaxy fleet they'll support this.

With the USAF as an example. There are currently over 700 F-15s in service (not counting the Strike Eagle). Its replacement, the F-22, will see less than 200 planes built, but it's still going to be the "main USAF fighter". Meanwhile, the not-quite-main USAF fighter, the F-35, is planned to have 1700 or more built, to replace the 1200+ F-16s they have...

Mark

[Mr March]

Denrobius

I would think the VF-17 development would be relevant given that it became a main variable fighter. Regardless, why wouldn't VF development become a longer and more complex process? Modern fighter development is becoming increasingly expensive and complex, and Macross also has OverTechnology thrown into the mix. As development of the newest technologies progresses, complexity ultimately follows. It's not unreasonable to assume as much.

And I think you just answered your own question. Maybe the UN Spacy/New UN Spacy adopted the VF-171 precisely because development times/costs/manufacturing difficulties were growing with each new variable fighter generation. Perhaps the NUNS saw the VF-171 as a way to obtain a better fighter, but allieviate their budgets and allow technology a chance stabilize in the face of ever more cutting edge Valkyries. Only when it became financially/industrially/politically viable to pursue high performance Valkyries once again was the VF-25 introduced, maybe. Ironically, this theory also helps explain why there may be some perceived slowdown in VF development. Like I said, a renaissiance of sorts.

And lastly, we still don't know what happened to the VF-19 and VF-22. I get the impression fans are completely writing them off for their lack of appearance in Macross Frontier episode 1. There's only so much Big West could do with the first episode. Like I said, they already included the VF-17-ish and Ghost X-9-ish, so I don't see what all the worry or concern is about. It seems to me the VF-19 and VF-22 may yet appear. And even if they don't, perhaps their fate will eventually be revealed. Moral of the story: don't jump the gun and stay tuned. We might get some answers.

Zinjlobular

Good point about the obvious plot line connection with the inclusion of the VB-6 Konig. Personally, I'm not sure how the games fit into the chronology. I know at the very least they are official and the Macross Compendium includes their histories in the chronology. But they would ultimately be subservient to the anime productions and given Kawamori's flagrant disregard for continuity, they would be dismissed whenever inconvenient. Still, as a responsible fan, we'd seek to unify the video games within the larger Macross chronology (unless specifically told they were not a part of it) in every area where they aren't contradicted by the anime productions themselves.

Sumbody

I agree. The VF-171, even if we assumed it's performance was only equal to the old VF-17, is a vast improvement over the VF-11 both in performance and firepower. Another good point about the YF-19 being notoriously difficult to handle. It went through seven test pilots. A fighter isn't much good if the majority of pilots simply can't fly the thing.

Also, has anyone ever considered that politics played a big role in the adoption of the VF-171? Think about it, General Galaxy has been playing second place to Shinsei Industry for a long time. Perhaps the UNG voted in someone very partial to General Galaxy. Perhaps even a Zentradi or Meltrandi who thinks very fondly of General Galaxy's designs and decided it was well past time GG was given the coveted main variable fighter contract.

Macross007

Not a bad theory and quite simple. Though we know that not every pilot of the VF-19 was a brilliant one (see Emerald Force)

Mark Nguyen

I see the VF-19 and VF-22 as simply unknowns. Azrael has touched on this issue before and I'm inclined to agree with him. We simply don't know what happened with the VF-19 and VF-22, whether it was in the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era or the Macross Frontier era. There is even dispute over whether the VF-19 was actually mass produced on a large scale (though the appearance of the VF-19P on a fringe world in Macross Dynamite 7 seems to suggest it was). It's also possible these fighters were more widely available but only for a limited number of production years before (as you say) other priorities took over. I've also suggested political reasons came along and radically changed why the NUNS went with the VF-171. The UN Spacy itself was obviously reorganized on a fundamental level and private military companies have really taken center stage. Who knows what changes in mandate have been made in the government of the UNG. All we know from the first episode of Macross Frontier is that there have indeed been many significant changes.

[Final Vegeta]

I think 25 was just a number chosen because it is the 25th anniversary of Macross.

The VF-19 and VF-22 may or not may appear simply because they must be redesigned in 3D. Yamato's toys show that some modifications must be made for the original models to work.

FV

[RDClip]

I think 25 was just a number chosen because it is the 25th anniversary of Macross.

I figured it would be called that when i first heard the series was coming out. Perhaps fans are reading too much into it, rather than it being a nice way to give a wink to the 25 anniversary.

[Gui]

+1

[Zinjo]

I wouldn't go so far as to say private military companies have taken over, but they do have a certain amount of clout. They test the latest military equipment in combat situations (if necessary), thus would be given preferential treatment by the military if conventional gear isn't effective.

The fact that they are manned by experienced, highly trained staff also gives them an edge over the green NUNS troops.

The apparent lack of experience by the VF-171 "alert" pilots and reorganized Spacy tends to lean me toward the idea that some sort of large conflict in the 2050's has depleted the vetran & equipment base of SPACY.

However, why things are the way they are, has yet to be revealed.

[Mark Nguyen]

I agree. "Green" is also a relative term. It's very likely that the M25 fighter force is trained to fight unknowns, but trained on existing or past threats such as Zentradi or (arguably) Varauta. It's clear they were easily outclassed in terms of firepower, speed and maneuverability, so I'd give those pilots a lot of credit IMO. Should they come up against another rogue Zentradi fleet in disrepair, I think they'd be more than adequately prepared for a battlepod turkey shoot, if the Ghost fighters didn't get the enemy first.

Mark

[Zinjo]

I agree. "Green" is also a relative term. It's very likely that the M25 fighter force is trained to fight unknowns, but trained on existing or past threats such as Zentradi or (arguably) Varauta. It's clear they were easily outclassed in terms of firepower, speed and maneuverability, so I'd give those pilots a lot of credit IMO. Should they come up against another rogue Zentradi fleet in disrepair, I think they'd be more than adequately prepared for a battlepod turkey shoot, if the Ghost fighters didn't get the enemy first.

Mark

I think the principle difference between the VF-171 pilots and the SMS is the SMS actually 'have' fought alien threats whereas the green troops have only trained in simulators and in 'safe' excercises. Which would be why they were quickly intimidated and overwhelmed by the Varja.

[twich]

Just had a thought, and I dont know if this has been brought up before and I am at work, so I cant search all 19 pages to see. I noticed in re-watching the first episode that the "large" Red enemy was actually quite a bit larger than the VF-25 and the "small" Enemy was about the same size as the VF-171/VF-25. So my question is, are they bringing the VB-6 Koenig Monster to compete with the "Large" enemies? They would seem to be the same size and probably the same firepower. So, what are people thoughts on this? Could this be the reason to bring in the VB-6?

Twich

[Mr March]

It does make sense that there's a need for heavier firepower. The Valkyries seemed ill-equipped to battle the large red Vajra. The imminent appearance of the heavy combat VB-6 Konig and that large beam cannon thing we see the VF-25 using in the manga would suggest your theory has plenty of merit.

[azrael]

So my question is, are they bringing the VB-6 Koenig Monster to compete with the "Large" enemies? They would seem to be the same size and probably the same firepower. So, what are people thoughts on this? Could this be the reason to bring in the VB-6?

Unfortunately, we don't know how the VB-6 will be used. It's still too early to tell. From the manga, it appeared in the background at the SMS facility. So we know that SMS has a VB-6. As to whether or not it will see usage.....wait and see.

[Zinjo]

It could ultimately become a "happy coincidence" that they have the Konig. The SMS is charged with flight testing new equipment and if VF-X2 is taken into consideration with the Frontier story, then the prototype was initially deployed 9 years earlier. The one in their hangar could be in final testing or just additional equipment assigned to them. Unless it's an upgraded VB-6 similar to how the VF-11C was the upgrade to the VF-11B.

As Az has said, it's just too early to tell.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Seems to me private military contractors like SMS would be tasked with many varied defense contracts and would have an large assortment of materiel. It wouldn't surprise me if they have VB-6 Konigs, VA-3 Invaders and all kinds of other stuff.

[twich]

You are right, we will have to wait and see what happens in the next 25 or so episodes( or is it going to run 36?) Just from a fan standpoint, I would like to see the use of new attachments for the VF-25 and VF-171, as well as seeing the VB-6 make an appearance. I just cant see the VF-25 making a dent in those large red enemies unless they receive a significant increase in firepower in the coming episodes. The way the gunpod rounds just bounced off of the Large Enemy makes me worry a bit.

Twich

[Zinjo]

You are right, we will have to wait and see what happens in the next 25 or so episodes( or is it going to run 36?) Just from a fan standpoint, I would like to see the use of new attachments for the VF-25 and VF-171, as well as seeing the VB-6 make an appearance. I just cant see the VF-25 making a dent in those large red enemies unless they receive a significant increase in firepower in the coming episodes. The way the gunpod rounds just bounced off of the Large Enemy makes me worry a bit.

Twich

Keep in mind one ran from Ozuma in his Armored VF-25 w/ energy weapons, so the VF-25 is effective somewhat against the Red Barons, but not so much with Fast Packs alone.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I liked the idea of the monster fighting a red guy. I wonder how a monster in battroid mode using the arm missiles at point blank range would fare against swarms of the bugs? They just don't seem as threatening compared to the inbit who were small but numerous. If the Monster had add-on Fast packs and a giant version of the beam weapon that it could use as a hand carried weapon in robot mode it would be a great defense.

Also there could be the problem of pilots not being able to handle something as powerful as the 19. I'm sure they ironed out a lot of problems before it went into production, but don't forget that they lost a LOT of test pilots to the YF-19. It wouldn't be Max and Mirias flying the VF-19 cannon fodders, it would be standard pilots.

This is what I was going to suggest a while ago: I wonder if the pilots themselves in modern times are necessarily more skilled then the same cannon fodder pilots of the old days? If not, then it would be a waste of money to see these guys using an expensive robot that just gets blown away easily due to lack of ability of the pilot to manuever quickly. Sure a crap pilot in a crap mech will die more easily than a crap pilot in a good mech, but maybe that money could be better spent on other things like giving the good pilots with experience the new toys and just slightly upgrade the existing valks for the noobs? (just as the VF-1 itself got upgrades as a super valkyrie towards the end of the tv series, not an immediate new valk)

One thing about the speed of the valks is that unless the pilot has maxed out the potential of the existing valk he has, there is no point giving them vf-22, or a 19 unless the pilots can handle it. We saw how gamlin was respectful of basara's ability to withstand the Gs to be able to do all those acrobatic stunts, so it might also be about physical fitness and mental ability as well? What if you get dizzy easily, lose your sense of direction, or black out? Not everyone can be miria, max, dyson, basara. I think it is more realistic that these valks were still limited in numbers even in the future. (it's not like the enemies themselves are necessarily more skilled either, just that they were caught unprepared facing a new type of enemy with different tactics)

Also the 21 as we saw in plus could go faster than what a human/zentradi pilot could handle. The only way to defeat the x-9 was if Guld killed himself. You get to a point where extra speed might not make that much difference in the way you fight efficiently and where money on other things (like better training, weapons, armor material) might be more sensible.

Edited March 12, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mark Nguyen]

All true - but think about what jet pilots today have to face compared to those from the dawn of the jet age fifty years ago. In the Korean war, you have sub-mach F-86 Sabres clashing with almost on-par MiG-15s (I'm generalizing, yes). Flying and fighting was at low speeds and close in - you had to see your enemy to kill him, and you could not pull too much positive or negative G or risk blacking out. Today, an F-15 approaches Mach 2 while being able to kill an enemy outside of visual range with missiles and advanced radar. You can pull much more G than before thanks to a pilot's G-suit, and you can go farther and faster than ever before. You may not be as nimble as an F-86 but everything else more than makes up for it.

How do plots of SW1 compare with those in the Varauta War or the upcoming Frontier conflict? They are certainly trained to operate their machines efficiently, as efficiently as you can with human training. But in war, you'll still see people killed due to lack of experience, pilot error, psychological effect, and simple lucky shots. And against a technologically superior enemy, there's only so much you can do - a turkey shoot is still a turkey shoot, the planes are simply different.

Of course, in anime victory is generally assured depending on how important and popular your character is - we see Gamlin hop into a VF-11 and lay waste to a whole squadron of Elgerzornes. OTOH, Basara manages to annoy just about everyone and yet he survives...

Mark

[The_WOZ]

Just a couple off topic points:

G-suits where initially used in late WW2, and was standard equipment for the F-86 pilots (but not for the Mig-15 IIRC)

Combat speeds where in the zone of 700-800 Km/h and both the Mig and the Sabre could easilly break the sound barrier when diving in combat maneuvers.

[Mark Nguyen]

Thanks for the G-suit correction; though you can still argue that those used today are far better at keeping pilots conscious than the earlier generations, especially with higher-G maneuvers an everyday issue.

Mark

[The_WOZ]

Oh yes, todays G-suits respond way faster and more efficiently than the early ones

[T.V.]

Especially the full body suits.

Then there's also the fluid based G-suit, which makes sustained 12 G turns possible.

In all fairness, humans (even the most fit ones) won't be able to sustain a lot more than 15 G during instantaneous turns.

Although (some) people may survive up to 40 G for a fraction of a second, it won't have any pratical usage, because of the severe trauma involved.

Anything above 15 Gs for a couple of seconds or longer will lead to (possibly deadly) injuries. Going from bruises to internal hemmeraging (sp?).

Unless anti-grav technology will become available, manned craft would be limited to around 15 G for safety standards.

Given that, the main limitation that will sort the aces from the duds, will be information processing capacity.

Pilots with the highest situational awareness will be most sought after.

Also, the screening of pilot canditates will likely have become more stringent as is ever the case (war time emergency nothwithstanding).

The mental, rather than the physical, abilities will be key for the cream to rise above the crop.

Regarding the SMS's and the VF-25's status it's currently just a wait and see game.

My suspicion is that the SMS is a Blackwater-meets-NASA civilian run test and evaluation team, not unlike current Private Financing Initiatives that will lease out the future training of RAF pilots to civillian contractors.

SMS pay is likely to be higher than NUN Spacy's, plus NUNS may suffer from poor reputation and cost cutting measures.

A second reason might be that SMS was a secretly funded initiative specially set up to deal with the, as it appears to be, foreseeable new threat.

The NUN, being redically restructured from UN to it's current from, may simply have been an unwielding aparatus to trust this mission with.

One which secrecy was paramount, because it deals with the disappearance of Megaroad-01, which probably would have caused a lot of upheaval in the populous.

The VF-25 is a new design, not yet accepted by the military, designed specifically to deal with this new (and secret) threat.

Doing so it's mirroring the VF-1's origin making Macross come full circle during it's 25th anniversary.

People who knew Megaroad's, may have been untrusting of the UN's ability to effectively deal with this new threat.

Enter Macross Frontier and the SMS. The Frontier is being steered directly towards the Megaroad's last position (hidden from its populace) and the SMS is the secret contingency plan in effect.

This is just speculation on my part of course, but I base this on the hints we've been fed in the opening episode, such as:

- Macross Frontier and Galaxy changing direction towards Megaroad's last know position (2:18 in the ep).

- The president being aware of the threat existing beforehand.

- Sheryl being secretly brought in by the military.

- The Varja taking note of Lanka's (future singing idol) Spiritia/aura, etc.

- The Varja being cued in to a strong spiritia's existence (reason why it infiltrated the island).

- Sheryl being scurried away, acknowledging she may be targeted by this 'new' enemy.

- SMS squadron getting a specific mission they've expected. Only not this soon (Again based on the proximity to Megaroad's last known location?).

I'm probably too far off topic already, so I'll keep it at that.

Edited March 14, 2008 by T.V.

[Zinjo]

I believe you are reading too much into things.

- The VF-25 is the next generation variable fighter, set to replace the VF-171 after it's finished it's trials.

- If we skipped the events of Mac 7, then I might agree with your assessment of the UNSpacy military, however, there is little indication of it otherwise.

- There is a possiblity that the disappearance of the Megaroad 01 mission may come into play with this series, but it is far too early to tell.

- Sheryl was on a tour afaik and just happend to arrive at the Frontier fleet when they encountered the Varja.

- Indications appear to support the idea that the fleet stumbled or neared something the Varja were protecting. There are indications that the President and the SMS were expecting some sort of encounter. If they were indeed tracing the course of the Megaroad 01, then that could be an explanation, but we don't know yet.

- The only thing secret about the Valkyrie was its transformation capabilities.

- The presence of the SMS on this particular fleet lends one to wonder if the fleet is actually on the same course as the Megaroad. If so then the UNG may have expected some sort of hostile encounter and thus made sure it had its best equipment on board, manned by the best pilots available.

We'll see in a few weeks how this plays out...

[Mark Nguyen]

Indeed - though as the series premiere date approaches, specualtion will only become more rampant. I hope the majority of fans will not be let down - the first episode has caused Frontier to be the most highly anticipated major anime series in years! People have been wanting to find out what happened to Megaroad-01 for almost twenty-five years now, but I'm still with the camp that believes Hikaru, Misa and company are still just "out there", having long since sailed into the sunset. Instead, there seem to be more clues that this is a follow-on to Macross Zero (Nome, the aliens' decorative script, etc.). But I digress...

To keep this on topic, maybe it's not unheard of in the Macross universe, but why would NUNS want to divert two colony fleets to where Megaroad-01 was last heard from? Why risk the lives of milliions of people on a hunch? Assuming there's no conspiracy going on (dun dun dun...), if someone wanted to investigate a clue behind the disappearance of Megaroad-01, I'd send a purely military scout fleet (perhaps sectioned off from one of the colony fleets) to check it out first. The Macross 7 fleet did just that while investigating Varauta, and the wisdom of that was played out when that fleet was annihilated in seconds. Unless someone was dumb enough to think that something that made a fleet disappear almost half a century ago couldn't possibly harm today's military might, they wouldn't want to place millions of civilians in harm's way like that.

And the VF-25 must be public, but probably not widespread knowledge. Alto knew exactly what it was and he was a civilian. Whatever's going on, the 25 has probably had its unveiling back on Earth or wherever it was built and initially tested, and was only secretly shipped out to Frontier for field combat testing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Macross Galaxy or other "way out there" fleets had an SMS squadron aboard, complete with all the coolest toys for testing against known and unknown enemies.

Mark

Edited March 14, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[T.V.]

We'll see in a few weeks how this plays out...

Naturally.

I think you misunderstood me on the VF-25. I didn't mean it was a secret VF.

Rather a "black" program with a "white" front.

The VF-25 is public knowledge, slated to the next gen VF. However, neither its true capabilities nor it's true intended role (designed with the limited secret info that was available on the Varja) are public knowledge as of yet.

Likewise, the VF-1 was public knowledge, except for its -then secret- transforming ability designed to better counter giant sized enemies.

The events surrounding Sheryl's appearance in Frontier make it seem as if she was specifically sent for (perhaps even she's in the dark about NUNS' real intent) under the guise of her galactic concert tour. She was seemingly regarded an asset by the chain of command, and not merely a VIP.

All three are cases of hiding something in plain sight.

As I said before, this is based on conjecture on my part and not to be taken as truth or proof.

I simply connect dots where I see them, but the picture is still far from complete.

Though I think a general outline can be seen with some squinting.

P.S.

I don't expect/wish for the original Macross (cast) to play a significant part in Frontier, except for perhaps a Minmay tribute and perhaps a Megaroad's fleet log recording or last note transmission sent to the UN.

More like Megaroad's great dissapearing act being tied to a plotpoint in Frontier.

Perhaps Misa will have sent a last ditch warning to humanity to "remember the love."

Edited March 15, 2008 by T.V.

[T.V.]

To keep this on topic, maybe it's not unheard of in the Macross universe, but why would NUNS want to divert two colony fleets to where Megaroad-01 was last heard from? Why risk the lives of millions of people on a hunch?

You could turn that question around.

Who says it is indeed only a mere hunch?

Isn't it possible that NUNS has their (justifiable) reasons for sending 2 entire colonization fleets, which simply aren't divulged as of yet?

After all, it's so early in the game you can't rule it out if not confirm it as fact.

[briscojr84]

Indeed - though as the series premiere date approaches, specualtion will only become more rampant. I hope the majority of fans will not be let down - the first episode has caused Frontier to be the most highly anticipated major anime series in years! People have been wanting to find out what happened to Megaroad-01 for almost twenty-five years now, but I'm still with the camp that believes Hikaru, Misa and company are still just "out there", having long since sailed into the sunset. Instead, there seem to be more clues that this is a follow-on to Macross Zero (Nome, the aliens' decorative script, etc.). But I digress...

To keep this on topic, maybe it's not unheard of in the Macross universe, but why would NUNS want to divert two colony fleets to where Megaroad-01 was last heard from? Why risk the lives of milliions of people on a hunch? Assuming there's no conspiracy going on (dun dun dun...), if someone wanted to investigate a clue behind the disappearance of Megaroad-01, I'd send a purely military scout fleet (perhaps sectioned off from one of the colony fleets) to check it out first. The Macross 7 fleet did just that while investigating Varauta, and the wisdom of that was played out when that fleet was annihilated in seconds. Unless someone was dumb enough to think that something that made a fleet disappear almost half a century ago couldn't possibly harm today's military might, they wouldn't want to place millions of civilians in harm's way like that.

And the VF-25 must be public, but probably not widespread knowledge. Alto knew exactly what it was and he was a civilian. Whatever's going on, the 25 has probably had its unveiling back on Earth or wherever it was built and initially tested, and was only secretly shipped out to Frontier for field combat testing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Macross Galaxy or other "way out there" fleets had an SMS squadron aboard, complete with all the coolest toys for testing against known and unknown enemies.

Mark

Megaroad-13 was the one that sent the fleet to Varauta, Macross 7 only ever sent the Stargazer.