Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread *Read 1st post*

[Mr March]

Azrael

Oh gawd, don't remind me! "small hands! small hands!"

Mark

Yeah, as I suspected this is a lot of supposition brought in from elswhere to bear against the actual Macross fiction. It doesn't jive. Despite the logic behind the hands/manipulators as intricate hardware, they are not going to be as delicately designed as the swing wings on an F-14. Valkyrie hands/manipulators are specifically designed for heavy use in adverse conditions including firing, punching, grabbing, lifiting, leveraging, etc. They are going to be, by necessity of function, some of the most robust parts of a Valkyrie.

To take an example straight from Macross Plus, the entire weight of the YF-19 and the YF-21 was brought to bear upon the hand/manipulators as the two Battroids attempted to wrench the GU-15 gun pod away from the grasp of the other. And what part of the Valkyrie actually yields first under all that pressure? The hands? Nope, it's the elbow joint of the YF-21 that yields to the extreme mechanical forces placed upon it.

The hands of early Valkyries were not excessivle large, they were simply drawn that way on the line art. The line art I just posted above is a perfect example of the forced perspective Kawamori used in the VF-1 drawing, perspective that is not used in his later Valkyrie drawings. In accurate perspective adhering to the specifications of each mecha, the hands on the YF-19 are actually larger than those of the VF-1. A comparison of the VF-1 and YF-19 schematics would confirm as such.

The hands are built to handle anything thrown at them and all the instances of the Valkyries using their hands to tear and punch in the anime is more than enough to throw out the weak hands theory.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Mr March

[Sumdumgai]

It wouldn't make sense to rely solely on other things to protect the battroid in hand-to-hand. Gunpods and bayonets can be taken away or broken. PPB seems to be relatively new for valkyrie use. The hands in gerwalk/battroid make the valkyrie even more versatile. If anything, the advance in technology and all that probably allows for the hands to be less bulky than in the VF-1.

Mr. March sums up what I was going to write, but better and in more detail.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If the hands have to punch through armor they might get wrecked. If they punch an unarmored thing they won't be so bad. If kamjin can bust up the head with a crowbar or britai can rip off the chestplate, then there has to be the possibility that the hands might get broken, And yeah you do see the hands rip through the wall in DYRL, but remember how in the tv series when max and hikaru and kakizaki had to use the head lasers to burn their way out of a ship complaining that they'd run out of ammo? I wouldn't trust the imagery in the anime since it is inconsistant. Just like the scene of roy flying up into space to meet the sdf-1 without the aid of special boosters.

I like to think that the hands like the head turret is still more delicate to the other parts of a valk in the same way that a valk still benefits with GBP armor even though it is pretty 'tough' without it and can smash into concrete without being crushed. There must be varying levels of armor, and something like a Spartan can crush the hands of a valk if the two ever tried to thumb wrestle, maybe because of the better construction and overall thickness and level of armor put into it? So a lighter fighter plane is not going to need or have as much of this armor as a heavy-use ground mecha which might be weighed down with thicker armor that a fighter wouldn't have because it might slow it down?

It's such a geeky discussion. Personally I don't mind skinny hands because it needs to fit into the sleeve, (I just like big hands included with the toys ) but I'm just saying that although a robot might look tough because it can bash into a building and not get wrecked, it might get wrecked in a close to close fight with another robot which is more heavily armored than it and that is where you might see those delicate parts like the head laser and hands and joints be under threat of snapping and breaking. Part of it is the armor level, part of it is leverage (a qrau uses beefy looking claws for example which could crush more easily by being set further apart to grip things than the fingers on a 'hand') and another is the overall size of the mecha. (as pointed out: yf-19 is still a bigger valk than a vf-1 so naturally even though proportionally it has small hands compared to itself, the hand might still be bigger compared to the vf-1) And yeah we all know that the bubble hand is to make it easy to draw for the animators, but in the event that a mecha comes out with beefier design, does it not make sense to assume that the bigger and thicker and bulkier design will natrually be more robust than the same thing at a smaller level? (given both use the exact same armor/materials as each other)

Edited February 15, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[badboy00z]

I personally think it's just the style of art in that era. You guys are reading too much into it. Lol.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well DYRL and tv series show two different types: one with more robotic looking hands and the other with bubble hands.

But if a mecha with larger hands got into a fight with one with smaller hands and they wrestled, does it not make sense that the larger and more bulky mecha would have some advantage? (if they both had equal armor type and had the energy converting armor) Just saying...vf-11 might take a bit longer to crush a head turret than a yf-19 if it were forced to fight without gunpod due to some reason. (like the shortage of ammo as seen in SDF:M post war)

I would say if the battroid with small delicate hands had to grip a rounded object with its fingers it would have more chance of slipping from its hold than one with larger hands and a wider grip. (just because wider offers better leverage)

It would be like comparing an adult who can hold a large basketball in his palm with one hand upsidedown (palm facing floor) vs a kid who can't hold it because his hand is too small and offers less grip. The basketball would slip free from his grip due to his fingers being short. So the design of the hand does matter if close combat is the specialty. (which I don't think valks are designed for, but just wanted to make the point that size and design would matter in the real world)

Now there might still be advantages to smaller hands: you can press buttons easily, fix things and do more fine work that requires precision over power. Your skinnier fingers might be able to grip a gunpod trigger from a gunpod that wasn't designed to be used with your mecha and you can still fight using weapons you pick up along the way. So it's not all bad! Just as a boxer wearing boxing gloves can't grip anything with gloves, only punch.

Edited February 15, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

One interesting speculation about the PBB.

It is conceivable that the the Macross itself had a form of energy converting armor and when it was "folded" with the fold system, they discovered that the energy converter could be modified to provide a focused barrier of intense directed energy as opposed to an omnidirectional weak barrier, thus the PBB was born.

[Mr March]

I wouldn't trust the imagery in the anime since it is inconsistant.

It's such a geeky discussion. Personally I don't mind skinny hands because it needs to fit into the sleeve, (I just like big hands included with the toys ) but

When Kamjin in a 35 ton N-Ger drops with terminal velocity on top of Roy in a 13 ton Valkyrie, I wonder what's going to happen? Same thing with Kakizaki versus Britai. These scenarios are hardly relevant and if anything, the minor damage the VF-1 head unit suffered from all that force only proves my point. And how is tearing through an interior deck wall and cutting through the thick armored outer hull of a battleship in any way the same thing? The only inconsistent thing I see is the "weak hands" theory and if it came about because of something as stupid as another "small hands" mentality, I really need my head examined for even starting this conversation

I personally think it's just the style of art in that era. You guys are reading too much into it. Lol.

I think we just struck gold. "weak hands! weak hands!" is going to be the new cry of lameness

Edited February 16, 2008 by Mr March

[skull1 leader]

Question 1: Are the super armored fastpacks specifically designed for squadron leaders?

Question 2: Why don't we see an explosive decompression on Island 1 when the Bio-mech blasted through the dome? I see a shield system in place before the explosion, but not after!?!

[briscojr84]

Question 1: Are the super armored fastpacks specifically designed for squadron leaders?

Question 2: Why don't we see an explosive decompression on Island 1 when the Bio-mech blasted through the dome? I see a shield system in place before the explosion, but not after!?!

Most likely there is a secondary membrane type of shield in place as well, this sort of thing also happened in Macross 7 as well.

[azrael]

Question 1: Are the super armored fastpacks specifically designed for squadron leaders?

1) No. Full-armored packs are usually used when the need for overwhelming firepower is necessary. Full-armors are also not made in bulk like Super packs because of the added armament. In that case, you'll want to reserve Full-armored packs for people who you know and trust to handle them.

[skull1 leader]

Thanks Azrael and briscojr.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah but mr march you also saw kamjin punch the chest plate and dent it with his hand. Now imagine say another robot punching it? (just as milia was seen punching right through the cockpit of the male zentradi powered armor and blasting that guy point blank in the face?)

I think it's not just about the armor, but the leverage you get by having the manipulator fingers set wider apart for gripping. A little kid with small hands wouldn't be able to grip a basketball with a single hand with palm facing toward the ground without it slipping out of his hand. But a hand with longer fingers and bigger hand might be able to do it easily. It's just that bigger hands would be more suitable if the manipulater was designed for more heavy work.

So let's say the two battroid are in a wrestle up close (like in SDF:Macross post war when ammo was scarce) the guy with the claws or big hands can grip much easier and then rip a limb off because the hand can easily wrap around say an arm or a wrist and it won't slip when the other guy struggles to break free. A small-handed robot trying to fight a mecha with bigger hands upclose is going to have more problems gripping the body part of the mecha due to the way the hand was designed. I'm just saying that there would be a real world advantage to have bigger hands, not that small hands are necessarily weak and useless. (personally it never bothered me since valks kill with gunpods)

True in the tv series they were simplified to make them easier to draw, (I know this) but if these boxing glove designs *were* canon, the vf-1 with bigger hands would have advantages as I outlined above due to better grip, fingers are wider apart, and generally being thicker.

A head laser or small finger is still *more* delicate than a part on the robot that isn't fine and skinny. (assuming the energy converting armor is equal on all parts of the robot) Small hands do not mean it's 'weak', but bigger ones do not mean there are zero advantages over smaller ones is what I'm trying to say.

So if a larger mecha needed to grip the arm of a smaller mecha it could easily provide a stronger grip (better leverage) because of the way the palm and fingers could wrap around the arm and then proceed to throw the smaller mecha. But if a smaller mecha wanted to grip a larger mecha's arm, it would have problems gripping because it's hand might not be able to wrap around the arm properly due to being smaller and having shorter fingers. (and not being designed for that role in the first place, more of a secondary role)

It's like comparing GBP armored valk to a naked valk. A GBP still offers better protection than a valk without the extra armor. Not to say that the energy converting armor isn't already good enough, just that having that PLUS some GBP is going to increase chance of survival with the extra thick armor you just added on top of what you already have. (The weakness being you might be slower and bigger with the armor on so you are an easier target to someone with anti-armor weapons.) I'm just saying there are advantages and disadvantages to each design based on what role the mecha was supposed to be good for.

Small hands: better accuracy manipulating small things like people, pushing little buttons on a console, pulling triggers on smaller weapons where the skinny finger can fit through. But poorer grip, smaller joints on the wrist etc

Boxing gloves/bigger manipulator: thicker armor, better grip (like the claws on the Qrau) more mass meaning a heavy punch. But less accuracy/poorer articulation due to armor/fat getting in the way.

Is this overanalysing? Yes. But size and thickness of the armour along with mass, and the design matters. I think a realistic robot show should allow for those things to make a difference to make it seem more realistic. So a race of aliens who specialise in fighting up close and prefer to outnumber the others by attacking from multiple directions with sheer numbers is going to have mecha that is good for that style of killing vs a race who get by fine on pinpoint barriers and giant cannons that can kill whole groups of things with one shot at a long distance, but who are doomed if the shot misses and could never win with small numbers if they didn't rely so much on those weapons. In shows like gundam they take into account the range of weapons too and have certain mecha that are helpless upclose but great for long range. So all this stuff does matter to the geeky fan who finds the stuff of interest.

Edited February 17, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

Way too much to get into and I'm not feeling these explanations are going in any new directions than arguments that have already been addressed. Each point is simply throwing more unknowns at the problem rather than going with the simple explanation that is most supported and unified by the official fiction and the anime productions. Digressing, this is also way off topic, so a new thread should be made in any case.

[Zinjo]

Most likely there is a secondary membrane type of shield in place as well, this sort of thing also happened in Macross 7 as well.

Consider the fact that Island 1 is much larger than City 7 and that explosive decompression would occur in a confined pressurized place.

The hole would cause decompression to be sure, but with a ceiling of 2000m there is a LOT of atmosphere to evacuate as opposed to a small compartment aboard, say a Uraga class carrier. The damage would need to be sealed as soon as possible, but it wouldn't necessarily drain the whole dome immediately.

[Kurisama]

Bubble hands look crap.

DYRL hands FTW!

Kurisama wins!

[azrael]

Enough with the hands already. Keep your discussion to M Frontier mecha and tech.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The ex-gear: do you think this was inspired by the valkyrie girl idea?

^

What happens when in the future the technology gets so miniturised that macross no longer becomes a mecha show but a powered armor show with humans becoming the robot itself?

Will you stop watching when in the year 3000 valks become obsolete and teams of EX-gear equiped soldiers have enough firepower inside their suit to destroy 30 alien red bugs with their portable buster cannon?

Edited February 17, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[chrono]

Enough with the hands already. Keep your discussion to M Frontier mecha and tech.

Ok.

The current "hero" plane has visually weak looking hands. 'Skeletal' would be a fair description of them. Unarmored another. It's more an issue with proportion to the body. The whole issue would be moot if the hands were set more deeply in the forearm or had a single bit of armor on the hands back adding to it's thickness.

Anyways the whole mech gives of the "This is your starter mech!" vibe from Super Robot Wars. You know that mech you dump as fast as you can for a better one.

[Mr March]

LOL There is no hope

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But you can now have the armored gerwalk that you always wanted. I guess that is the advantage to skinny valks.

[Zinjo]

But you can now have the armored gerwalk that you always wanted. I guess that is the advantage to skinny valks.

Yeah, I always felt they missed an opportunity to show one during the Mars Base episode, in SDFM...

[azrael]

New info on the VF-25 from official site (from the naming contest):

- The VF-25 is currently undergoing performance evaluations done by S.M.S..

- Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series.

- The VF-25 transformation system allows for a smoother and quicker transition from Fighter->GERWALK->Battroid than in previous generations.

- The VF-25 is very customizable according to mission-specifics and pilot preference.

- The Full-Armor system improves armaments. The Super-packs improves maneuvering performance.

- (Already mentioned) The VF-1 Full-Armor system was restricted to Battroid use but the VF-25's does not carry this restriction.

- Currently, the VF-25's Full-Armor system is limited to S.M.S. squadron leader-use.

[Mr March]

- The VF-25 transformation system allows for a smoother and quicker transition from Fighter->GERWALK->Battroid than in previous generations.

I'm really glad they said this officially, because I've been wanting to mention much the same thing about the VF-25 for some time. But I've been dreading the inevitable deification placed on the VF-1 as the "ultimate" transformation system and the harsh replies screaming how could I even suggest the VF-25 transformation is actually be superior

I should do another another write up on the transformation sequence like I did for the YF-19 and YF-21 (which reminds me, I don't think I posted that faux-dossier on my website as yet).

Edited March 7, 2008 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

The transformation sequence, eventhough it "seems" a bit awkward to old school fans, is in keeping with SK's revisionist ideas about variable fighter transformations that we first saw in Zero.

At no point does any part of the VF-0 or the SV-51 ever detach from any part of the aircraft like the VF-1 did. If he was given a chance to re-design the VF-1, I suspect the transformation sequence would look much more like the Zero with swing bars carrying the engines down to the nose.

The fact that the VF-25's transformation sequence also solves the problem of transformation with augmentation packs still attached is also another benefit.

[Valkyrie addict]

New info on the VF-25 from official site (from the naming contest):

- The VF-25 is currently undergoing performance evaluations done by S.M.S..

- Combat performance is equivalent to the VF-19 and VF-22 series.

So, I presume, the VF-25 is somehow asimilar performance craft that's easier to maintain and cheaper to mass produced instead of the overly complicated VF-19 and VF-22

makes sense...

[azrael]

So, I presume, the VF-25 is somehow asimilar performance craft that's easier to maintain and cheaper to mass produced instead of the overly complicated VF-19 and VF-22

Until we know what happened to the VF-19/VF-22 series, I can't say whether that's a good assumption or not.

[Zinjo]

Well from a practical point of view would it not make a lot of sense to gain the performance of the VF-19 & 22 with the ability to augment weapons kits like the VF-1 and VF-11?

It would also explain why the VF-25 is such a low number, if the earlier series' of VF's are generally still in use (to what capacity we dont' yet know) elsewhere. Possibly in strictly military applications as opposed to emigration fleet escort duty.

[Graham]

I don't get why people say the VF-25 is a low number. It's only 14 years since the events in Macross 7 and only 9 years since VF-X2. In 2050, the VF-19 and VF-22 where still not in widespread use yet.

This is Macross, where VF's usually stay in service for quite a number of years (just like the real world), not Gundam, where new MS are introduced nearly every week!

Graham

[Mr March]

I agree that the time span between the end of Macross7/Dynamite 7 and Macross Frontier turned out to be much less than many of us had feared. I can still remember when the number 2070 was floating around as the setting for MF. Having said that, I think the VF-23, VF-24 and VF-25 is a sound number of Valkyries to develop in the 14 year gap. And as I've stated on this matter before, there may have been other VF-5000-like Valkyries developed as well during those years. Let's also not forget that the UN...er, I should say New UN Spacy has apparently also gone backwards and re-designed the VF-17 into the VF-171. It's possible a type of renaissance took place in variable fighter engineering which saw the rebirth of older technologies which were more cost-effective and efficient. The adoption and re-engineering of a special operations fighter (the VF-17) into a new main line fighter is a pretty telling indication that some policy radically changed. It might also be important to consider that perhaps the Project Super Nova AVF over-estimated what was really possible with variable fighters at the time.

Ahem, anyway...

[azrael]

I don't get why people say the VF-25 is a low number. It's only 14 years since the events in Macross 7 and only 9 years since VF-X2. In 2050, the VF-19 and VF-22 where still not in widespread use yet.

This is Macross, where VF's usually stay in service for quite a number of years (just like the real world), not Gundam, where new MS are introduced nearly every week!

It may be something with the sporadic numbering. VF-1->VF-4->VF-5000->VF-11->VF-19->VF-whatever

[Zinjo]

The point is that in the 37 years from the VF-1 until VF-22 Spacy developed and deployed approximately 10+ fighters and in only 14 years we might see only 3 new models, with the 25 being the most advanced. The comparative change in new development activity is what the comment is referring to. Since if the pace were still the same Spacy would have at least 5 to 6 new fighters on deck for deployment.

It is entirely possible as March damn you march! has suggested, that the a change in policy has lead to a new direction of maximizing the effectiveness of existing designs as opposed to developing new ones. Such a policy shift would allow NUNS to get out more colony fleets in a shorter time with less cost in resources.

[Final Vegeta]

It may be something with the sporadic numbering. VF-1->VF-4->VF-5000->VF-11->VF-19->VF-whatever

Sporadic numbering was simply meant to allow autors to insert a VF inbetween established timelines.

FV

[Dendrobius]

I'm still wondering where the VF-19s and VF-22s are. Apart from the "we need new shiny from Kawamori to make the toys sell better" angle, there's not much to go on. It doesn't make sense at all in universe.

Frontier's set 2059. Project Supernova, 2040. Initial deployment into front line squadrons, 2046. The 19 was supposed to completely replace the 11, and the 22 was supposed to be the replacement for the 17. Somehow, in the space of less than 13 years, both crafts were retired completely or never completed deployment, and the 171 was developed from what was already an obsolete fighter, and put into mass production. That's WAY too short a timespan for all this to happen. Just look at the VF-11 for example, initially deployed in 2030, Supernova happened 10 years later, and after that, another 6 before unit replacement began. So that's 16 years between fighters. Theoretically 19s and 22s should be like 11s and 17s in Mac7, they should be at the same stage of the lifecycle, matured and almost ready for replacement, not nowhere to be seen.

Also it's too short a timespan for the development of the 171. Shinsei and General Galaxy were both busy with Supernova, where did General Galaxy find the time or the reason to spare a design team to do up the 171...when their VF-22 was already accepted as a direct replacement for the VF-17 which was also produced by them??

(I'm a big fan of the AVFs, just sad not to see them appear at all in Frontier)

[Sumdumgai]

It could very well be that the VF-171s are the cheaper alternative to the VF-19s and VF-22s. Do some tweaks to the design to make the 17 more efficient and less costly, and you have a nice frontline fighter for colony fleets. The 171 might not be up to par with a 19 or 22, but if its cheaper and does it's job better than the 11s, why not?

Of course this is all just guessing. It makes sense to go with a proven design if you can upgrade it.

[Mr March]

Adding to Sumdumgai's already good points, life cycles for fighters are not uniform through history. Some fighters have shorter operational lives than others and not all new fighters stand the test of time. We don't yet know all the details of the new Macross universe. There have been many serious changes. The UN Spacy has apparently been completely reorganized. Private military companies have taken center stage. Older variable fighters have been updated/redesigned and now assume the role of the main line variable fighter. Obviously, things during the mid 2040's changed quite a bit before we got to 2059.

Also, the VF-171 is not a completely new design and it stands to reason the development of the VF-17 into the VF-171 was much simpler than creating an entirely new fighter from the ground up. The VF-17 was already a superior fighter to the VF-11 (not only do the statistics prove this, but ace pilot Milia Jenius was impressed with the improved performance of the her VF-17S custom) so as our friend Sum has said, it may have been a logical, more cost effective alternative.

Lastly, we have a single episode of Macross Frontier from which to speculate on all the changes in the Macross universe for the past 14 years. That's not much to go on nor is this single episode intended to be an exposition free-for-all that recounts everything in between 2047-2059. It stands to reason that much more of the modern Macross era will be revealed as Macross Frontier progresses. Given the appearance of the both the VF-171 and the "new" X-9 Ghost fighters, both obvious design throwbacks to previous Macross productions, it's not unreasonable to speculate that we may see more of the VF-19/VF-22 as the show goes on.