chrono Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 VF5SS, if it's not anime I don't even view it as part of any universe even if the creator grandfathers it in later. The creator can STFU for all I care. I'm not such a blind fanboy that the creator "is always right". Doubtful, since SK is Supervising Director, thus has final say in all the animation, including mecha and character designs. Having final say and actually making chances during the building process are two different things. SK probably said "Build these designs in 3D." and gave them his and Miyatake's design books/concept art and walked away. Then didn't see them again until the animation sequences were set-up and by then it would be too late to make changes without hurting the schedule in some way. He probably only worried over the "hero" vehicles and let the rest ride which would explain just why the old designs have some truly horrible crap just stuck on them. As for M7's animation being screwy.... Since I never compared the current stuffs scale to anything other than the static concept art the argument is meaningless to me.
Mr March Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 It still looks small to me. *crowd sratches heads*
Zinjo Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 VF5SS, if it's not anime I don't even view it as part of any universe even if the creator grandfathers it in later. The creator can STFU for all I care. I'm not such a blind fanboy that the creator "is always right". No he isn't, but neither are you... Having final say and actually making chances during the building process are two different things. SK probably said "Build these designs in 3D." and gave them his and Miyatake's design books/concept art and walked away. Then didn't see them again until the animation sequences were set-up and by then it would be too late to make changes without hurting the schedule in some way. He probably only worried over the "hero" vehicles and let the rest ride which would explain just why the old designs have some truly horrible crap just stuck on them. OK this isn't a hollywood movie, it's a weekly TV show and in Japan the director's reputation is hinged on the final product. Likely, much like Lucas, he has the CG animators get his "approval" of their work "before" spending time and money on actually animating anything. It's just good business sense. Granted the detail work went on the hero models, but the others would have been approved before hand including how much detail would be required on them. As for M7's animation being screwy.... Since I never compared the current stuffs scale to anything other than the static concept art the argument is meaningless to me. What has meaning to you is irrelevant to this discussion. Those who've done the homework will understand what I am saying. The fact remains the "producers" consider all canon stories including sanctioned games to be part of the universe, whether you want SK to "STFU" or not. That includes all the vehicles previously designed and all the cg models built for the Frontier, whether they be updated versions of old designs or if previous animated designs were out of proportion. The story events and elements are also taken into account, regardless of what some fans choose to include for themselves. I don't appreciate many elements of where Macross has gone, however, this is the producers' vision not mine.
Mr March Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 And that's all correct, in as much as Kawamori and Co. care to account for continuity. We fans have to run the hurdles, but Kawamori and Co. get to do what they like, continuity be damned if they wish.
Kurisama Posted January 28, 2008 Posted January 28, 2008 SK probably said "Build these designs in 3D." and gave them his and Miyatake's design books/concept art and walked away. Then didn't see them again until the animation sequences were set-up and by then it would be too late to make changes without hurting the schedule in some way. I highly doubt it. I work in the games industry, and when I get given any approved concept art - the design is followed as CLOSELY and ACCURATELY as possible, the only changes that occur are the ones where certain parts or pieces are not logical or possible to make - which is almost never, OR where machine limitations come in - which would not be an issue in a TV program. And SK would not just give the design to some grunt and say 'Make it', I'm confident he'd do many check ups along the way, go thru several viewings of the model in progress. Plus SK is a stickler for detail and accuracy. And making changes in CG model is a piece of pi$$, would only really hurt the schedule if a lengthy sequence wold need to be rendered out and all other effects composited etc etc, but again i doubt that'd take long as they'd have very top end machines.
Radd Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 Even in freelance art, the companies wants to see regular updates to make sure that you're going in what they consider the right direction and properly following guidelines that they've laid down from the start.
chrono Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 (edited) No he isn't, but neither are you... Opinions aren't they a grant concept! OK this isn't a hollywood movie, it's a weekly TV show and in Japan the director's reputation is hinged on the final product. Likely, much like Lucas, he has the CG animators get his "approval" of their work "before" spending time and money on actually animating anything. It's just good business sense. Granted the detail work went on the hero models, but the others would have been approved before hand including how much detail would be required on them. Speaking of those who should do they're homework. Nearly 50% of the Prequel movies were driven not by Lucas, but by the artists he employed. RoTS was 95% driven by the artwork given to Lucas. Only the final works were "ok'ed". However your statement on this is absolutely and completely void of any merit. You can say one thing doesn't work that way and then directly state that it does as a rebuttal. What has meaning to you is irrelevant to this discussion. Nice attack. "My opinions better than your's!" God talk about childish... Sure it does as most of this is IMO talk anyways, and if you look through out your post it's as full of "if's" as mine was! Those who've done the homework will understand what I am saying. Oh I completely understand what you've said. But that doesn't matter because they are both valid sources of material, so claiming that either is right or wrong is about as silly and meaningless as it gets. Edited January 29, 2008 by chrono
chrono Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 I highly doubt it. I work in the games industry, Good, so you've done TV work as well? Because if you've never done TV work then you don't really understand the time constraints involved. TV programs have nearly the same issues games do, especially in the polygon area. Render time = Money. Same ideas, but different beasts. However much I want to believe that SK held the model builders hand through the build the end result is clearly not as good as the designs show that they should be. Then again this maybe a direct result of not having the input of the real designer (Miyatake) either. Which, to be honest the more I think about it, sounds more like the case and would help to explain some of the issues involved. Because Miyatake basically designed the current era (sans a few things).
Kurisama Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Good, so you've done TV work as well? Because if you've never done TV work then you don't really understand the time constraints involved. TV programs have nearly the same issues games do, especially in the polygon area. Render time = Money. Same ideas, but different beasts. No I haven't done TV work, but what I mean by time constraints is the time between milestones/due dates for certain builds of any given game - we have to work not only to our own schedule - but the schedule of the companies that own the licences to the games we are making. We have several people here who have worked in the film and TV industry - they assure me although there are similarities, they are quite different things. And in regards to render time = money, that is incorrect (for games) - as TV shows have a much higher budget for polygons as the output is to film and for post processing effects and compositing etc etc, so ofcourse they need to work within a limited time and make sure everything is good to go before they render - games on the other hand need to stick to a limited budget of polygons depending on what platform u use, so time is dedicated to building, texturing, optimizing and play testing. Render time for nice spiffy models only come into it for FMV's, which are usually done by another comapny entirely. I'd say say games production and TV production are quite different. SK would have done final concept art -handed it to the modelers, checked in every so often during constructions, as certian milestones were reached, eventually a final model would be produced, scoured over and scrutenized and finally approved. This is not to mention countless meeting with other departments (animators for example) to make sure it was all coming together and would work.
GGemini Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Here's the scan from the latest Newtype (both pages edited together)
Zinjo Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Here's the scan from the latest Newtype (both pages edited together) Dude, I love it when you do that! Thanks!
Zinjo Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Opinions aren't they a grant concept! Speaking of those who should do they're homework. Nearly 50% of the Prequel movies were driven not by Lucas, but by the artists he employed. RoTS was 95% driven by the artwork given to Lucas. Only the final works were "ok'ed". However your statement on this is absolutely and completely void of any merit. You can say one thing doesn't work that way and then directly state that it does as a rebuttal. Nice attack. "My opinions better than your's!" God talk about childish... Sure it does as most of this is IMO talk anyways, and if you look through out your post it's as full of "if's" as mine was! Oh I completely understand what you've said. But that doesn't matter because they are both valid sources of material, so claiming that either is right or wrong is about as silly and meaningless as it gets. You are under the mistaken assumption that I am trying to "win" something... I am pointing out what common production procedures are. Whether you choose to accept them is entirely your perogative.
Steve Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 I recently did a stint as a editor on an animated show so I'll give an overview of how we did ours, not all shows are the same but for the most part the basic idea is. When the production started the director designed the look of the show i.e. all the characters in various poses in various colour schemes including lineart. Than the script is sent with these designs are sent to the storyboard artists, the moment the storyboards are done they get submitted back to the director for approval, once approved the get sent to roughers and backgrounds. and the process is repeated in each stage until completed. To make the jump to a 3D rendered image is hardly different at all, the director send the design to the modelers. They model the character and than get approval. Than it would go to onto the next stages, but between every stage in returns to the director for approval. Our director had to watch and approve about 150 2-14 second clips every morning. however this was after he sat with me for two hours going over the animated show in sequence which I updated the evening before. You can be assured that pretty much every shot/scene gets looked over by the director before anything gets completed. At the end of the day sometimes cartoon logic does get used to smooth the edges.
chrono Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Zinjo, you're making 1 LARGE assumption that a 'common practice' in one country is a 'universal practice' in every country! Which is what I've always been saying that it may not be so. We know that animation is lacking in the 3D category and has been for some time, so it's difficult to say whether there 3D production processes and controls are the same as their 2D ones. Some company's don't even use "common place/standard" 3D programs and rely on native versions. Hell, I've not seen a LOD in an anime as of yet! But like I said, It might be all caused by another designer placing their own designs on someone else's designs. A "Copy of a Copy" situation. - - - - - @Kurisama & Steve, agreed. But you've also given English based examples, so it's hard to say whether it's also the same for them in the 3D area.
Zinjo Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Zinjo, you're making 1 LARGE assumption that a 'common practice' in one country is a 'universal practice' in every country! Which is what I've always been saying that it may not be so. We know that animation is lacking in the 3D category and has been for some time, so it's difficult to say whether there 3D production processes and controls are the same as their 2D ones. Some company's don't even use "common place/standard" 3D programs and rely on native versions. Hell, I've not seen a LOD in an anime as of yet! But like I said, It might be all caused by another designer placing their own designs on someone else's designs. A "Copy of a Copy" situation. - - - - - @Kurisama & Steve, agreed. But you've also given English based examples, so it's hard to say whether it's also the same for them in the 3D area. OK, you win.... Let's move on to something else before this digresses any further....
Kurisama Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 I sure do like giant-transforming-flying-robots-in space, discuss...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) They aren't really robots though are they? Since they don't control themselves. They are mechanical tools which the pilots manually control. Just like a tank or a car. The real robots are the cleaners in DYRL and vending machine you see in SDF:M. Eventually these will kill the humans and become the pilots of the future valkyries. Singing won't affect them since they have no emotions. Ghosts/demons/protodevlin can't possess them since they aren't alive. And drones won't attack them because that would be like killing your own mother. Edited February 1, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
Steve Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Wow I just got an image of the soda machine pulling a transformers and going nuts on everyone near by haha.
Graham Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Guys, lets stay on topic with Macross Frontier news please. Graham
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I'm getting a strong feeling that the VF-25 will be replaced by a better valkyrie towards the end of the first season.
azrael Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 I'm getting a strong feeling that the VF-25 will be replaced by a better valkyrie towards the end of the first season. Kawamori usually isn't like Gundam franchise which replaces the protagonist's MS mid-season (it's assuming a lot that MF will be more than 1 season at the moment). Usually he'll introduce the new mecha early on and then mod the heck outta it.
MacrossCN Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Macross F PV2 by Bandai, no new chip!!! 「マクロスＦ（フロンティア）」 プロモーション映像 第2弾 http://www2.b-ch.com/cgi-bin/cmn/pv/pv_vie...0.cgi?pv_c=1282 Youtube: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=t551QFy9N5c download: mms://b-ch.dooga.co.jp/macross_f_pv2_1000k.wmv Edited February 2, 2008 by kresphy
Kurisama Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 OOooOooooo...... New footage! Awesome! Thank you!
Graham Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Nothing new there that hasn't already been shown before. Graham
Kurisama Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Nothing new there that hasn't already been shown before. Graham Well I hadn't seen the Gerwalk scene where it stops suddenly toward the camera and the scene where that girl is falling. I have only seen the episode. Edited February 2, 2008 by Kurisama
Graham Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 That footage was already shown several weeks ago on the ep# 2 preview. Graham
Mr March Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I'm with Kurisama, this is new to me. I haven't seen any of the episode 2 footage. It's looks amazing. This series is going to be great
MisaForever Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 That footage was already shown several weeks ago on the ep# 2 preview. Graham Guys, don't be like that. Not everyone has seen what you've seen so understand that. This is new to me as well, we don't all keep up like you.
TehPW Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Guys, don't be like that. Not everyone has seen what you've seen so understand that. This is new to me as well, we don't all keep up like you. it's more like gently keeping them from over the edge. Nope, nothing new per se, though the views help. actually on a couple shots, you get the impression there is a few more frames inserted...
azrael Posted February 2, 2008 Author Posted February 2, 2008 I'm with Graham. Those clips had absolutely no new footage. 3/4 of the PV was from Ep. 1. Some of it was from the 1-hour special...
MisaForever Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 I'm with Graham. Those clips had absolutely no new footage. 3/4 of the PV was from Ep. 1. Some of it was from the 1-hour special... Ok that's fine, just don't insult other people about not having seen it yet.
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