Macross 25th Anniversary TV Special thread *READ THE 1ST POST*

[grss1982]

@Ali Sama: Credited the Ozma image to you. :-)

@Fellow MWers:

What's up it all this talk, speculation, arguments or whatever about the first episode? People it's only the frickin first episode!!!

Everyone should remember:

If we get the transient facts, then we feel the info high.

[Graham]

Now I'd agree with most that the designs are well done, but at the same time, they don't feel very "Macross" to me-- or at least those parts of Macross that I fell in love with apart from the generic template of transforming planes, aliens, and singing girls. It seems that each generation of Macross bears an aesthetic that's more and more fanciful, with a color palette that's more and more fantastic, and departs farther from what first made Macross relatable, believable, and endearing to me. MF feels more like generic Gundam Wing-esque anime and seems to be departing from its real-robot roots, the same transition the Gundam franchise seems to be undergoing itself.

I really don’t get why you think Frontier is departing from its real robot roots? So far, to me at least, Frontier seems closer to original Macross and DYRL than any of the other sequels.

But going back to the whole ‘departing from the real robot roots’, so far neither the VF-25, VF-171 or Ghost have shown any super robot type qualities or abilities. About the only improved ability shown so far over previous generation Valks is a faster transformation time.

The mecha in Macross Frontier are definitely not super robots in the classic sense, like Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, Combattler V, Voltes V, Getter Robo etc. which are near indestructible, have many different super powerful attacks and pilots who shout the attack name while attacking, fight a different monster of the week and destroy it using the same finishing attack each and ever battle. No similarities with Macross Frontier at all.

Neither are they what I term ‘Neo-Super Robots’, which would be shows like Wing Gundam & Gundam 00, where you have super robots with pseudo-real robot styling easily destroying legions of lower powered grunt-type military mecha. Does this sound like Macross Frontier? Not to me it doesn’t.

To me, the mecha in Macross Frontier like most mecha in the Macross universe are the epitome of real robot design. About the only current anime I can think of that is more real would be the new Votoms OVA.

Graham

[Graham]

I agree with you 100% Especially the characters. Look at the male lead Alpo. He's got the same boring moody nature that Shin has. What happen to likeable heroes? Hikaru had plenty of reasons to be a aloof loner but Hikaru saw the glass half full, Isamu was full of life, Gamlin was trying to act mature and serious but you could like. You could tell he was human. Look at Alpo. A quiet, pretty boy, loner. What is there to like about him? Why should I even care about him? Maybe as the series progress he'll become more interesting but right now who cares. Little girls maybe? Just because Alpo looks like a girl doesn't mean has has to act like a pussy.

Still it is only the first episode.

I dunno, I don't find Alto especially broody or angsty so far. He doesn't like being told he looks like a girl, but what normal guy would. Apart from that he seems fairly normal. He's obviously passionate about flying and really wants to fly Valks, which is a good thing.

Graham

[Sundown]

I really don’t get why you think Frontier is departing from its real robot roots? So far, to me at least, Frontier seems closer to original Macross and DYRL than any of the other sequels.

But going back to the whole ‘departing from the real robot roots’, so far neither the VF-25, VF-171 or Ghost have shown any super robot type qualities or abilities. About the only improved ability shown so far over previous generation Valks is a faster transformation time.

I'd have to agree that MF isn't really super-robot, and the tactics at least remain someone believable, but I guess it's mainly the design aesthetics and palette that bug me. I'm seeing some overly-ornamental design elements in the VF-25's head unit and attachments, and the lightning spark that shoots out when the torso attaches during transformation seems there mainly for the sake of "cool", "pretty", and "uber-futuristic" over gritty and believable. There's a fair amount of unnecessary pretty than I expect for real-robot, whether its in the color scheme, the training suit, or the pilot suits. I'm just having a hard time buying into the look and feel-- there's just too much purple and tints of it in the palette. While not super-robot, I guess I feel that it incorporates more fantastical design elements from that end of the spectrum than I'm really comfortable with. I guess MF is sort of the opposite of 'Neo-Super Robots’-- robots with believable capabilities that yet use design elements that are just a tad out there for strictly military. "Pseudo-Real Neo-Robots"? Then again, what I expect for "strictly military" is what I've been conditioned to expect from what our military looks like. I have no idea whether it would be realistic for a future military to use shades of purple in their dress, or less-than-utilitarian robot head units.

And before someone points out modern flying glider-suits in development by the military, I also want to point out that they look dark and forboding, rather than fanciful and fairy-like, as any good piece of military equipment designed after 1900 should. =)

Edited January 3, 2008 by Sundown

[Graham]

I guess I'm one of the few who don't rave about Macross Frontier. While the animation quality was good, and the designs were passible, none of the characters were terribly relateable or likeable. So far, each character seems kind of bland and generic, although I suppose Ranka's cute in her beauty obsessed sort of way. Still, none of the characters seem to have any of the grit and likeability of those in SDF, M7 (and I don't like M7), or M+. Then again, this is the first episode-- but you'd think this would be the most important episode in introducing the essence of a character beyond yet-another-pretty-but-bland character design. The characters sort of remind me of those in M0, who also tended to be bland, slightly conflicted, but mostly either cute and over-expressive or emotionally aloof. I'll have to see more, but there's not much so far to get excited about here.

This is all just different personal opinions, but I’m 180 degrees to you, in that I found the Frontier characters very likeable and relatable and not at all generic. I can’t wait to find out more about them and what happens to them.

My only criticism would be that as others have pointed out some of the character animation was a little inconsistent, but still acceptable IMO.

Graham

[l_e_m]

And in MF, we get Alto, who's somewhat broody and irate (rightfully so, I suppose), who's bishouneness doesn't win likeable points for a male viewer like myself, who'd rather a character be likeable or "cool" than pretty, who's only marginally relateable trait is that his pretty-boy-ness is as annoying to him as it is to us, but who doesn't display any other likeable trait. He doesn't seem to show much likeability even in his desire to fly, as his main attempt at flying has been so far to fly on fun-but-fruity-looking wings, which again, doesn't really scream "badass" or "cool" to me. A character like that needs to be handled with some wit and humor-- or else he's just a broody, emo elf, and I guess that's just not my cup of tea.

For all of Alto's bad points, he has gumption.

He barely survived his first encounter with the red Variable, watched one of his colleagues pounded into V8, and still had the wherewithal to put himself on the line to help someone else, knowing full well he might die.

That sort of character is "cool" to me.

It's a lot more than what Hikaru did in the first episode of SDFM.

[jenius]

It's a lot more than what Hikaru did in the first episode of SDFM.

Imagine you, right now, driving down the street. This may not be true of you but also imagine you stand very averse to physical violence after years of war. Now imagine your car transformed into a forty foot tall robot just in time to be attacked by a 40' alien soldier. That's a bit more jarring than being on a space colony where you know all sorts of aliens are out to get you and you're in training to be a soldier when you get a sudden opportunity to act as one. Now, since Alto in episode one ends in what is a clear homage to a scene from Hikaru in the first Macross series I'd say it's hard to paint Hikaru as some do-nothing panzy in the beginning of Macross. I'd say he had a lot more going on.

[wolfx]

Then again, maybe I just have bad subs. =)

Watch the Shinsen subs again and get back to us.

It seems to me you lost most of the conversations Alto had with himself and his friends. He has a passion to fly a valkyrie but can't due to something not revealed yet. When he graduates, the best job most likely for him is a shuttle pilot flying predetermined paths. He wants to be free. To fly in the sky without a barrier. He wants to be...Mr Valkyrie Pilot.

"Kyunnn kyunnn...kyunnn kyunnn.....watashi no kare wa pilotoooo"

[Sundown]

For all of Alto's bad points, he has gumption.

He barely survived his first encounter with the red Variable, watched one of his colleagues pounded into V8, and still had the wherewithal to put himself on the line to help someone else, knowing full well he might die.

That sort of character is "cool" to me.

It's a lot more than what Hikaru did in the first episode of SDFM.

Which sort of makes him less believable and relateable to me, I guess, and in the end, less fun to watch. He sort of does his mildly broody and aloof thing, watches a pilot get turned into pizza sauce, and then just goes into scripted-hero-mode. To me, it's as if he's written as an ideal to maximize appeal to a 14 year old girl as much as possible--the mysterious, brooding, pretty-boy hero with rediculous composure underfire-- *not* that you must therefore be a 14 year old girl if you find some aspects of his personality enjoyable of course.

I guess I just enjoy Hikaru's bumbling a lot more-- and I can actually buy that he's just a schmuck who wants to impress a girl, while being a decent pilot and (over)confident, reacts as much out of horror and panic as bravery when he guns down his first alien. He only does his brooding afterwards-- after seeing a 60 foot tall alien crawl out of the Regult he just filled with depleted uranium. It's obvious at that point he wouldn't make a very good soldier left to his raw self. And it's only then that his courage is honed, through training, through experience, and through maturity.

I wonder if the difference in the two characters (and I compare them because one's obviously set up in situations that are homages of those the other experienced) is reflective of the differences in trends between the two cultures they reflect. Our modern culture tends to be very youth-centric, and often the protagonists are depicted as young folks who in some sense know everything there is to know, who are ready-made heroes even if they're a bit brash, sometimes to their credit. The 80's seemed to make nods towards adulthood, with young characters who were often endearingly shortsighted, but who ultimately grow alongside a mentor (like a Fokker) that they (and we viewers) aspire to emulate.

Oh, and Hikaru only managed to *fly* a valkyrie, pick up Minmei, dodge a swarm of missles, catch her in mid-dive with an insane stunt that involved no seat-belts, then add to that one Regult kill. Alto doesn't even have one kill yet. He hasn't even gotten a valkyrie off the ground. All he's done so far is press a trigger, with the episode ending in mid gunpod-spray. =)

Edited January 3, 2008 by Sundown

[The_WOZ]

Uhmm... The 1st episode of SDF Macross ended with Hikaru being shot down and crashlanding on Macross City while transforming the VF-1D into battroid mode.

All that things you credit Hikaru to do, actually happen on the 2nd episode.

[Sundown]

Uhmm... The 1st episode of SDF Macross ended with Hikaru being shot down and crashlanding on Macross City while transforming the VF-1D into battroid mode.

All that things you credit Hikaru to do, actually happen on the 2nd episode.

Oh feh. You're right. I'm mistaken. Well, he did get the thing off the ground. =P And I believe he was at least shot at a bit. And maybe killed one innocent bystander. That's still one kill up on Alto.

[wolfx]

Oh, and Hikaru only managed to *fly* a valkyrie, pick up Minmei, dodge a swarm of missles, catch her in mid-dive with an insane stunt that involved no seat-belts, then add to that one Regult kill. Alto doesn't even have one kill yet. He hasn't even gotten a valkyrie off the ground. All he's done so far is press a trigger, with the episode ending in mid gunpod-spray. =)

Hikaru does those in the 2nd episode of SDF Macross.

And from the next episode preview, it would seem that Alto was able to hold his ground well against the hammerhead aliens after presumably grabbing Ranka from the floor. Based on the preview, what presumably happens is Ozma comes in and rescues Ranka and Alto in the nick of time....distracting red mecha, and asking Alto to run and take Ranka with him. He does that....and somehow lost hold of Ranka in the process and she gets sucked out of the dome's hole. Ozma eventually saves her.

And like i said dude...its just the 1s episode and you're watching some weirded subs.

[The_WOZ]

@Sundown: When did you watched SDF Macross for the first time (or anything Macross)? Were you a Kid?

I watched SDF Macross (the robotech version) when I was 6 or 7 years old. I was hooked to it by its mecha and action sequences (specially the Zentradi ship explotion on the 1st episode). That's the same that I liked about Macross F. While I DO watch for character likeness/personality on other anime, that's what I first watch in Macross. Sure, after the initial awe with the mecha on SDF Macross, I continued to watch it for the plot and characters. And I hope to the same to happen with Macross F.

In any case, with the years, I have learned that you may hate some characters at first, but in the end, given a good plot; you'll like/love 'em.

[Graham]

And it feels to me wholly contrived that Alto's suit just happens to be the same as the military issue, and just happens to enable him to pilot the valk a pilot "ejected" out of. I

I think it is deliberate that the school X-Gear shares similarities with the military X-Gear as (while not confirmed yet), Alto's school seems to be some sort of training academy where SMS recruit their new pilots from, so it makes sense for the students train on a version of the X-Gear similar to what they will use when or if they graduate to become SMS pilots.

Graham

[Mr March]

I just want to post a few general thoughts about Macross Frontier comments I've read here and elsewhere on the internet. I guess one could say it's just a collection of my own thoughts on the various issues, so just indulge me if you're interested.

I'm not sure I understand the "un-Macross-like" criticisms I've read intermittently appearing every once in a while here and there online. Nearly every installment of the Macross franchise has been distinctly different than the last, even DYRL compared to SDFM. Macross Frontier appears to be the first Macross sequel that strongly resembles the original SDF Macross, not just in genre and theme but also in characterization and plot. IMO, it's arguably the most "Macross" of the franchise with the exception of the original series.

The mecha designs of Macross Frontier are necessarily innovative and can never be the simple line art of SDF Macross. No modern mecha anime show can. There's no way mecha design can go back to the simpler stages that it has been in previous decades. For better or worse, mechanical design in mecha anime must explore new ground and only draw influence from it's ancestors via innovative derivation, but never straight out imitation. I will agree that much of the mechanical design we see today doesn't do enough to challenge the boundaries of mecha design and Macross is no exception. However, the mecha of Macross are also limited by the very unique standard that Kawamori set back in 1982; ergo, you can't have an Evangelion in a Macross show because it's not a Valkyrie. Every Macross show must have a Valkyrie, even though mechanical design may demand that to truly innovate, one must go beyond those limits. Personally, I'm okay with that, mainly because Macross, unlike so many other anime franchises, is a rare pleasure; a treat; something special that happens only once between the span of many years. I enjoy the Kawamori mechanical designs because they are so unique to Macross and remain the creative vision of a single man. A Kawamori Valkyrie will always be a creatively unique design in anime. The Valkyries of Macross are created in evolutionary steps reflecting both the changes in real world influences, contemporary influences and the franchise's own internal consistency.

Going further, I do think that sometimes people really need to think outside the prejudice of their own generation a little more. I'm not singling anyone out here, just trying to raise a point for consideration. The constant romanticism bred from the happy associations one makes with the entertainment of their youth is really something that a lot of fans need to re-examine if they ever hope to find true enjoyment in new entertainment. Creativity is not the sole purview of any one decade and while the ebb and flow of any art form will see peaks and lows throughout the years, those gems of high quality can be found in any era. If fans can't get over the fact that Macross, any Macross, will never be as new to them as it first was, then it's impossible for anyone to meet their expectations, whether it's Kawamori at the helm or otherwise. I know some may say I'm treading dangerously close to defending mediocrity here, but there is a distinction between poor quality and unrealistic expectations. Some of the expectations fans have posted here for Macross Frontier have not been realized even within the greatest of the Macross sequels such as Do You Remember Love? or Macross Plus. There is only so much one can get out of that which is already familiar and perhaps Macross is not the best example, albiet I believe it is still one of the more interesting franchises. Given how many franchises I've sampled and dropped over the years, I think that says quite a bit.

Lastly, I do understand that this first Macross Frontier episode might appear a bit too cliche. I've expressed the concern myself. However, I think it might be prudent to have a bit more faith in Kawamori and Co. Kawamori, right or wrong, good or bad, has always done something significantly different with each Macross sequel. I think the similarity of Macross Frontier to SDF Macross is definitely more intentional homage than outright cliche and I'd wager Kawamori and Co. are going to take this newest Macross series in a different direction than any past Macross production. But we have to wait and see. Personally, it's been quite some time since I was this excited about a Macross sequel. Neither Macross 7 nor Macross Zero were as exciting to me as the first episode of Macross Frontier. I'm not saying Macross Frontier will be as good as my favorite Macross sequels, but I do believe there is more potential in Macross Frontier for a great series and I'm eager to see more.

Besides, isn't it an official MW pastime to crave a remake of the original SDF Macross?

[lord_breetai]

I guess I'm also not a big fan of the flying-wing-suit. The design's just too fanciful for me for a Macross series. And it feels to me wholly contrived that Alto's suit just happens to be the same as the military issue, and just happens to enable him to pilot the valk a pilot "ejected" out of. Instead of Hikaru's fun and somewhat believable bumbling, I can't help but feel that the director wanted a homage, wanted a hero who flies like a fairy on wings, and *wanted* it to make sense that he would have them by making it necessary to pilot the valk, rather than circumstances naturally making sense.

Well I don't know how contrived it is, when they say in the dialouge "These are the same standard the military uses". Honestly I find Alto's boarding of a Valkyrie to be less realistic then Hikaru. Alto WANTS to be a Valkyrie pilot and is already in a flight school and performing arial stunts for a living (Hikaur of course was a pilot but wasn't learning to be a Valk pilot. Hikaru's groggly launching in the middle of a battle is crazy... cause why?

Cause he was too afraid to tell Misa he was a civillian who was just being shown the Valk by Roy, remember Hikaru was anti-war at this point too and didn't want to be fighting in a war machine, where as Alto gets into the Valk out of neccesity the scene is more like Amuro getting into the Gundam then Hikaru launching in the Valk... but unlike Amuro, Alto's been training for this, and we know from SDF Macross... so I have no problem with it.

[Sundown]

@Sundown: When did you watched SDF Macross for the first time (or anything Macross)? Were you a Kid?

I saw Robotech when I was about 9 or 10, and the action sequences and the designs definitely gripped me. Even then, the Macross designs gripped me more than any other anime mecha design did, and the first time I laid eyes on the Fokker VF-1S, I was definitely intrigued. But I also instantly liked the characters-- and even rewatching SDF a few years back, there was much to like in the initial episode. I've also watched various other anime and encountered characters that I enjoyed right away-- I even *liked* the character interactions in M7 right away, and I'm a *critic* of the series. Maybe the writing and storytelling will improve, but so far, I'm a bit underwhelmed.

Graham, I suppose it makes sense that the X-Gears would be the same if the academy was trying to find standouts to pilot Valkyries. I guess I'm just not a fan of the winged backpack concept.

I agree that as a whole, the series resembles, in broad strokes, SDF more strongly than the other series-- but personally, I'm just having a bit of a time finding anything that I *really* like, even in the first episode-- I liked SDF, the whole package, from the get go. I liked the character interactions in M7 right off the bat, even if the mecha designs drove me insane. I loved the heavy emphasis on realistic aviation in M+. I was vaguely amused but apprehensive about the storytelling in M0. In MF, I'm not finding anything terribly endearing, but there's nothing to downright hate either. I just fear that in having MF go in a new direction, it will be mainly a showcase of fanciful art and design, and storytelling might end up suffering. We'll see.

[Valkyrie addict]

Oh feh. You're right. I'm mistaken. Well, he did get the thing off the ground. =P And I believe he was at least shot at a bit. And maybe killed one innocent bystander. That's still one kill up on Alto.

yes, Hikaru kills Kawamori on the first episode of SDFM

no wonder Hikaru ended lost in the middle of the galaxy thereafter, hahaha

guys, I think we're overanalizing Macross F... let's just let it be, we can't come to any definitive conclusion from a 26 min episode

[Randalt]

guys, I think we're overanalizing Macross F... let's just let it be, we can't come to any definitive conclusion from a 26 min episode

Overanalyzing? No, we must wring every bit of data out of this episode. And the manga. And from the doujins already on their way, I'm sure.

[Duke Togo]

The amount of nitpicking really amuses me. Anyone watch the original show lately?

[Beltane70]

The amount of nitpicking really amuses me. Anyone watch the original show lately?

Yeppers! The original is full of flaws, but that's part of its charm!

[azrael]

And from the doujins already on their way, I'm sure.

We're a family friendly board. Take you sexual fantasies to your own closet.

As to this whole expectations, cliche and over analyzing 1 episode nonsense...I know Kawamori is going to throw in a bunch of homages here and there. But I will let the series go where it wants to go. I'm not walking in with any expectations like it has to capture the story of SDFM or have the aviation of M+ or the character drama of M7, etc. I'm not expecting it to be like any other Macross series. In the end, if I don't like it, I don't like it. But I will judge it based on itself, not compared to what has come before.

[deadghost]

Overanalyzing? No, we must wring every bit of data out of this episode. And the manga. And from the doujins already on their way, I'm sure.

wait whats a doujins, perhaps google image will help me out

[deadghost]

wooooooooo......ok....can someone explain to me what am I looking at, christ those nasty images will hunt my mind for the rest of my life.

Edited January 3, 2008 by deadghost

[grss1982]

The amount of nitpicking really amuses me. Anyone watch the original show lately?

Not me. :-)

However, I am re-watching Macross Plus OVA and Macross Zero as of the moment.

And whoever said that MWers are over analyzing the first episode, I second that!!!!

[Keiichi]

So I've been a bit out of the Macross loop, so Macross Frontier came as a total surpries to me, and a great extra holiday gift! Just finished watching the first ep and I just had a grin on my face the whole time, I really think they nailed the whole "Macross feel." I mean once the talking vending machine rolled out, and the little litter robot scurried by I knew they had it! Sure was sad seeing all those beautiful VF17s getting trashed...

I gotta say, I got chills once I realized what the ending song was, a great rendition of DYRL. Liking the characters (just one thing though, if Alto really hates being called a girl... maybe he should cut his hair? Then again maybe he has a reason not to), loving the animation and the combat direction; have very high hopes for this series!

[wolfx]

wooooooooo......ok....can someone explain to me what am I looking at, christ those nasty images will hunt my mind for the rest of my life.

You really should wiki it before googling it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujin

[Zinjo]

Yeah but does he have to be withdrawn moody about it? What about him being passionate and driven? I want to share this desire with Alpo. I want a hero with some emotion.

How many 17 year olds have you met who are passionate and driven when faced with their plans falling through. I wouldn't call him som much moody as probably frustrated...

As to this whole expectations, cliche and over analyzing 1 episode nonsense...I know Kawamori is going to throw in a bunch of homages here and there. But I will let the series go where it wants to go. I'm not walking in with any expectations like it has to capture the story of SDFM or have the aviation of M+ or the character drama of M7, etc. I'm not expecting it to be like any other Macross series. In the end, if I don't like it, I don't like it. But I will judge it based on itself, not compared to what has come before.

SK has stated in the translated article from October (in December issue of NT USA) that this is the series he's always wanted to make. Now he describes each show as a different genre of story.

DYRL was a theatrical performance, Mac 7 was more manga like, Macross Plus was like a foreign movie (to the Japanese, which explains much of it's popularity over here) and Zero was a fantasy story according to SK.

So essentially Mac F is going to focus on the lives of Highschool students who have to cope with mortal danger on a regular basis (according to the boss). Now the highschool is more of a vocational school for pilots as Sketchley pointed out, so we have the tie in to show teenagers flying variable fighters. Exactly what genre SK is specifically choosing to do this series in is still hard to tell, but I'm sure that will become evident soon enough...

I am excited to see what he has in mind for this one, as he has no interest in redoing what has been done before, therefore no resurrection of SDFM, Mac 7, Mac Zero, or even Mac + should be expected.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Zinjo

[Roy Focker]

Alpo, people you should call little girl puppy love boy by the correct spelling.

[Duke Togo]

How many 17 year olds have you met who are passionate and driven when faced with their plans falling through. I wouldn't call him som much moody as probably frustrated...

Huh?

[Duke Togo]

Alpo, people you should call little girl puppy love boy by the correct spelling.

You going to keep trolling this thread?

Edited January 3, 2008 by Duke Togo

[kensei]

I agree with you 100% Especially the characters. Look at the male lead Alpo. He's got the same boring moody nature that Shin has. What happen to likeable heroes? Hikaru had plenty of reasons to be a aloof loner but Hikaru saw the glass half full, Isamu was full of life, Gamlin was trying to act mature and serious but you could like. You could tell he was human. Look at Alpo. A quiet, pretty boy, loner. What is there to like about him? Why should I even care about him? Maybe as the series progress he'll become more interesting but right now who cares. Little girls maybe? Just because Alpo looks like a girl doesn't mean has has to act like a pussy.

Still it is only the first episode.

Emo is the in thing right now.

[Zinjo]

Huh?

You'll figure it out eventually...

[Duke Togo]

No, seriously. He's frustrated that he can only fly so high (within the ship, in his Ex-Gear). There is some statement about the possibility of Alto joining the military (I am assuming NUNS) once he has graduated. Also, he *can* fly a civilian plane now, but that doesn't seem all that exciting to him.

I don't see his plans "falling through". That is, unless you are talking about their performance at the concert, which he didn't seemed to thrilled to do to begin with. All of that is secondary to his dream of flying Valkyries.

[Nexx Stalker]

What's the 1995 event (in the Macross timeline) everyone keeps referring to? Can someone explain?