Macross Zero, what exactly is the Tori no hito

[Isamu test pilot]

I am in a business trip and at free time I was talking with a coworker that he just saw Macross Zero, then he asked me what exactly is the Tori no hito... and I can explain it pretty well, actually it was the first time I though about it...

So I want to ask you the same, What exactly is the Tori no hito? is it alive? just a mecha? is it a weapon of the Supervision army or someone else?

Please if there is a topic where I can see it, just give me the link... any info will be great

[eugimon]

there's some debate here over what it is.

from my watching... it's an organic/machine hybrid fail safe, left by the protoculture to watch and see how humanity turns out. If we reach the stars while still being violent and war mongering, it wipes us out.

[misterryno]

there's some debate here over what it is.

from my watching... it's an organic/machine hybrid fail safe, left by the protoculture to watch and see how humanity turns out. If we reach the stars while still being violent and war mongering, it wipes us out.

I just got done watching Zero myself.....and I must say....I got the same thing out of it that you did. Except for what's up with Shins Valk being consumed by the power itself and him flying out of the world as well? (that happens at the end) sorry.....hope I did not spoil it for anyone.

[Duke Togo]

If we reach the stars while still being violent and war mongering, it wipes us out.

I'd say it failed, then.

You could argue that humanity is following in the footsteps of the Protoculture.

[eugimon]

I'd say it failed, then.

You could argue that humanity is following in the footsteps of the Protoculture.

well, from the show, it looks like it saw some hope when shin was able to let go of his violent emotions and reach sara. And because of that hope, decided it would side with sara and save humanity instead of blowing us all up. <shrug>

It's more like humanity is fixing PC's mistakes. We're bring peace to the zentradi and we took care of their protodevlin problem. Not bad for a species with barely over a half century of intergalactic dealings under our belt.

[JB0]

well, from the show, it looks like it saw some hope when shin was able to let go of his violent emotions and reach sara. And because of that hope, decided it would side with sara and save humanity instead of blowing us all up. <shrug>

It's not really "siding with" Sara.

She's an integral part of the system and it relies on her evaluation of the situation.

Of course, she's not totally herself while her brain is mixed with the computer, and she wasn't in the best state of mind to start with.

Ultimately, though, Sara is the final fail-safe. The system REQUIRES a human core, and that human can shut it down at any time for any reason.

Granted the man-machine fusion makes them less likely to do so, but they still CAN.

[eugimon]

hmm, okay, that makes sense... though, I think it's still a little vague because it seems like birdman has its own personality. Though, I guess that could just be clever programming.

[JB0]

hmm, okay, that makes sense... though, I think it's still a little vague because it seems like birdman has its own personality. Though, I guess that could just be clever programming.

It seemed like a 1.5 situation to me. Sara is PARTIALLY separate from the computer. She WAS an independent entity, but she also clearly wasn't herself.

They weren't totally merged, but there was a significant overlap.

If that makes any sense.

Either way, the birdman didn't seem capable of full operation without a human "pilot."

[eugimon]

Yeah, it's pretty clear birdman needed a pilot, it just seemed like it also had it's own intentions and directives. I wonder if sara was supposed to be under thrall, or if her mental state was due to a psychotic break from seeing her island blown up, her bf shot, people dying around her and being a little high strung to begin with.

I dunno, maybe there's a nuance missing in the fansubs, but it seemed to me the birdman was pretty clear on blowing humanity back to the stoneage when Sara confirmed that humans were still fighting each other. This is why I said it "sided" with Sara. Because, other than Shin letting go of his demons, everything else around Birdman was still violent and Birdman had no reason not to complete its programing.

But what you said does make sense... the human pilot acts as the final failsafe and is able to override the Birdman's programing.

[misterryno]

But what you said does make sense... the human pilot acts as the final failsafe and is able to override the Birdman's programing.

Yeah...that's gotta be right.....I mean at least when Shin detached all his weaponry when he was heading in to get Sara all of a sudden all the firepower that was directed at him totally went in a different direction.

[Keith]

While the AFOS had it's own AI, its decisions were definately based off of Sara's interpretations of what was going on. While she was in a trance state while pilotting it, she was still in control.

It'll be interesting if the AFOS actually does re-appear in Macross F. Maybe the bio-weapons attacking are something akin to the buster corps in Diebuster, pieces of a larger AFOS system that's there to issue a final test.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Keith

[Zinjo]

I am convinced the "bugs" in Frontier are bio-mecha, the only question is who's?

Edited December 10, 2007 by Zinjo

[Duke Togo]

It'll be a tragedy if the AFOS actually does re-appear in Macross F.

Fixed

[Valkyrie addict]

Fixed

hahaha! most indeed!

[Keith]

Fixed

But the AFOS LOVES YOU!

[Duke Togo]

But the AFOS LOVES YOU!

No no, man, I watched Zero. It wanted to kill us all.

[Keith]

No no, man, I watched Zero. It wanted to kill us all.

Love hurts sometimes!

[Zinjo]

The PC were the ones who invented the term "Cruel to be Kind"...

[eugimon]

The PC were the ones who invented the term "Cruel to be Kind"...

woah! letters to cleo flashback.

[Isamu test pilot]

OK, pretty interesting, but then when Sara override the Birdman´s programing and calms down, the Monster Destroid attacked but the Birman resisted and then the Birdman did some kind of fold, right?

Where did it go?

[jenius]

Nobody knows. It doesn't seem possible Sara had any control at that part, I'm just gonna guess she's not up enough on her space navigation to actually pick a coordinate. I also wonder how she would even know that a fold would contain the reflex warheads and save the islands. So yeah, I think the Birdman was pretty much just reading Sara's general vibe and then doing everything for her. So when she's like "Kill everyone violent" it does and then when she's like "save everyone I love" it does.

[Keith]

woah! letters to cleo flashback.

That's much older than letters to cleo.

[eugimon]

That's much older than letters to cleo.

oh, I know. It's just that's the band I have associated with that song/saying, for better or for worse.

[Duymon]

Tori NO Hito just means People the Birds, or Bird's People

Think People, with wings!!! O_o

I kind of miss Macross when it was just about Aliens with BFG's vs cool tranforming planes

Edited December 12, 2007 by Duymon

[Duke Togo]

I kind of miss Macross when it was just about Aliens with BFG's vs cool tranforming planes

Can I get an "Amen"?

[eugimon]

AMEN.

[Keith]

Tori NO Hito just means People the Birds, or Bird's People

Think People, with wings!!! O_o

I kind of miss Macross when it was just about Aliens with BFG's vs cool tranforming planes

Me thinks you're forgetting the giant aliens.

[soegab]

okay, i'm just realized this. when i saw macross frontier info.

it said that there's a character with the name "Sheryl Nome". and in macross zero there's Sara Nome and Mao Nome.

is it just a coincidence ?

[Duke Togo]

Coincidence? Most likely not. Is she Mao's grand daughter? We don't know.

[striderhiryu]

i don't think it is a coincidence, otherwise why would the NUNS millitary have such interest in having her safety as top priority?

also i still belive that she is the reason of the space bugs attack. could they be trying to retrieve her from human control?, it seems that she was the target during this initial engagement. tough if she is so valuable for the NUNS i would be more practical to have some backup cpoies (clones) of her for wathever purpose the goverment has.

if part of the series plot adresses this issue it would be quiet interesting.

[ssfsx17]

i don't think it is a coincidence, otherwise why would the NUNS millitary have such interest in having her safety as top priority?

also i still belive that she is the reason of the space bugs attack. could they be trying to retrieve her from human control?, it seems that she was the target during this initial engagement. tough if she is so valuable for the NUNS i would be more practical to have some backup cpoies (clones) of her for wathever purpose the goverment has.

if part of the series plot adresses this issue it would be quiet interesting.

Hmm, maybe she's a clone of Sara. I think the blacksuits are more than capable of looking up the first professor who visited the island and digging up the blood samples that he had taken... unless they're the blacksuits from Macross 7.

[DestroidDefender]

Hmm cloning. It's funny that cloning isn't really mentioned in Mac+ or Mac7 but it must have been going on to populate all those colony fleets from 2000-2050. It's inferred in the timeline but I don't think it's explicitly stated in the show. It would cause a number of narrative problems. Why not clone a whole Spacy Valkyrie Squadron of Max Geniuses? But cloning could explain why Max and Miriya don't look 60ish in Mac7 - they're not the originals.

MacZero just didn't come together. Maybe MacF will explain some of it's mysteries.

[JB0]

Hmm cloning. It's funny that cloning isn't really mentioned in Mac+ or Mac7 but it must have been going on to populate all those colony fleets from 2000-2050. It's inferred in the timeline but I don't think it's explicitly stated in the show. It would cause a number of narrative problems. Why not clone a whole Spacy Valkyrie Squadron of Max Geniuses? But cloning could explain why Max and Miriya don't look 60ish in Mac7 - they're not the originals.

MacZero just didn't come together. Maybe MacF will explain some of it's mysteries.

Well.... cloning doesn't transfer memories.

Odds are VERY good that Macross' cloning, given it was meant to help maintain human civilization, popped out babies to be raised by adoptive parents.

As for selective breeding....

Things could go several ways.

I would assume all citizens were required to donate DNA, to maximize the gene pool.

From there.... do you clone samples at random to maximize diversity? Or drag out the old eugenics concept and start trying to improve the species?

Again, given they've just fought a war for your species' survival against a race of genetically-engineered super-soldiers. I would think that in light of that, actively tampering with the gene pool would be viewed in a rather dim light.

Max and Millia's age is EASY to explain.

Medical technology advanced as fast as every other kind of tech after the Macross crashed.

[Keith]

I still say Max & Milia's aging is due to being Macronized for the filming of DYRL. Since Zentradi live longer, only stands to reason it strengthens their bodies.

[DestroidDefender]

Well.... cloning doesn't transfer memories.

The U.N. program probably used used Zentraedi technology. Zentraedi "micronizing" seem to transfer the whole personality. Then again Zentraedi micronizing/macronizing seems to dissolve the original body. Who's to say how the cloning program post SW1 worked? It's not documented on screen.

I agree about Max and Millia - medical Overtechnology seems to be the simplest explanation.

Sorry - we're well off topic now...Quick, somebody slag Macross 7 then we can call the thread closed!