Bandai Macross Frontier toys thread

[Master Dex]

Wow... why are people getting so worked up, its just a frakking prototype image, it's not like there is something on the page saying "That's it, all we need to do is color it and it's ready to go!" Maybe I'm biased since I think like an engineer but it looks fine to me, for a prototype. I've seen things where the picture guy mis-transforms something all the time, especially in the case of the pictures on a Transformers toy box when it really transforms fine and according to instructions, but the person taking the photo didn't follow instructions and just winged it.

You know Bandai may actually be listening to what we were saying, before these pics showed up everyone was talking about how they wanted so badly to see pics of a VF-25 toy, even in production. Well it seems Bandai has decided to show you an early pic indeed, even though it's not done. I bet if they waited to show anything until they were done with the design and sculpting of the figure and had a full colored mass production model then it would look fine, and despite the fact there is always someone who will be unhappy I bet there would be a lot less complaining.

I've seen endless cases, and not just with toys but tv shows too, of things were in the beginning it looked iffy and people shouted out negative things saying it was going to be the worst thing ever and then the finished product comes out and it turns out to be very decent if not very good and all the nay sayers either admit they were jumping the gun or they just don't say anything anymore. Give Bandai a chance guys, let them finish the damn figure before you go saying it's the worst thing you've ever seen and you'll never buy it. Even that hinge is probably due to being an early prototype, they put a simple hinge design for the prototype while they make sure the figure works then they make a better less obtrusive cockpit mechanism for the final product, simple as that.

Now of course I don't know for fact that the finished 1/60 DX VF-25 will turn out good, maybe it will maybe it will not, but until I see the final product that is going to be on the shelves I will not judge it. However if I were to give an unofficial opinion based on that picture, my opinion of the prototype is... that's not bad.. for a prototype. That's my word for now, I'll give my official opinion on it when it's done.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Master Dex

[eugimon]

it's no more and far less then the vitriol, the nit picking and childish claims of entitlement whenever yamato releases a toy.

I refer you to classic: why can't yamato give us swapable heads instead of making me buy a vf-1a and a vf-1s. QQ

[ruskiiVFaussie]

maybe down the track they'll do that when no one wants to buy a 1/48, but how many re-issues have we had of the VF-1S?

Yeah, not going to happen with such a cash moo moo.

[Nani?!]

IMO, at the moment the Bandai sculpt looks like something Yamato would have put out 8 years ago.

Oh, the toy can definitely be improved a lot by a few small changes, but whatever they do, they have to get rid of that hinge pin on the canopy. I really, really can't believe that.

Graham

8 years ago is the 1/72 era for yamato.

Nippled, tab 2 breaking, fat legged, can't hold a proper gerwalk pose yf-19,

one legged, plastic cutout canopy heatshield, not to mention the hinges under the wingroots, vf-11b

floppy mess, only one pose poseable battroid mode, yf-21,

One / Seventy Two.

It's a good thing your joking Graham... Sadly, half the people here will actually rally around that nonsense and feel encouraged to add to it like so:

meh, you're too kind. Looks more like something bandai would have made... 13 years ago. Chubby, chunky and resigned to merely resemble the valkyrie it tries to be.

Pfft~~~ What a Yamaturd.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Nani?!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

One thing no one has mentioned is that Bandai tends to show their prototypes in much earlier stages of production in the hobby mags. Whenever we see Yamato we only see CAD, then the first test shots from the molds without added colors/paints, then final test shots.

Look at the SOC prototypes, we see early sculpt/prototypes, test shots, et al. Bandai simply shows their product in more stages of production than Yamato. A lot of you are jumping the gun.

this is from a sagging resin prototype.

See no one wants to believe that. Everyone believes its set in stone that this is what we will get and that Yamato can do better. It hasn't even been said if the photo we saw was of a prototype that has since been reworked. No one knows for sure, but already we have psychic fans who already claim to know this is the final. Resin has different tolerances, not to mention for all we know the ratchets and internal mechanisms might not even be in that sculpt pictured yet.

Once we see pictures of the final product, then thats a good time to say "oh how the mighty have fallen bla bla bla", if the DX turns out to suck. I fail to see how this is even comparable to Bandai's DX Fire Valkyrie and VF-17. Its not even close.

Being that Kawamori is onboard this, I doubt its going to happen, as Graham mentioned before, he is only on Macross toys for the high end versions. If he is anal on Yamato I doubt he will be anymore lenient on Bandai of all companies.

Bandai can definitely do better than that but it seems to me they just don't do it for Macross.

I think they will, its best to wait till we see pics of the final production version.

No wonder Kawamori-san has been frowning in all the photos with the Bandai design staff.

Maybe he is frowning because he wants to work on his Gundam designs instead.

think the CAD's get as scrutinized as they do because it's probably the only phase where fan's comments have any chance to be heard before things are set in stone. It's a minute chance to begin with, sure, but it's a chance.

We haven't even seen a CAD render of the 1/60 DX yet, for all we know, this resin sculpt pictured was sculpted by hand as a rough idea, then both CAD and rough sculpt are utilized to make a new CAD render for the final. There is nothing on the new DX that screams final, its in resin of all things! If its in resin the molds might not even be done.

However, I don't believe there's a cabal of Bandai sycophants who are hostile to Yamato. Sure, there are some people who have been burned and resent the way Yamato is worshiped by some, but I don't think they're rabid Bandai fans.

So true. I can't believe I have been alluded to being a bandaide when I was one of the only ones here excited about the new 1/60 when most were saying it was a waste of money since the 1/48 was already out.

[badboy00z]

I find it interesting that eugimon's always the first one to use harsh tone and call names.

[kensei]

Heh, I've said it before, but Bandai have no idea about designing Valks. Other mecha, epscially Gundams yes, but Valks no.

They should go crawing to Yamato on hands and knees to ask for design help "Help us Yamato, you're our only hope!"

Heh, the master (Bandai), has become the student.......LOL!

In a few years (I hope) you will all kneel before the awesomeness that is the Yamato VF-25 .....Mwahahahaha!

No wonder Kawamori-san has been frowning in all the photos with the Bandai design staff.

Graham

Or perhaps hire the guy that made the VF-1 in the first place? Aren't all designers freelancers? Like I said before, Macross is about being a plane AND a robot, not one or the other. I've never seen Bandai do a good aircraft.

I find it interesting that eugimon's always the first one to use harsh tone and call names.

In all the years and up till now that eugimon's been on this board, this is not the case. And might I remind you, he is being very restrained compared to many others. You're just reading things the way you want to read it.

[badboy00z]

In all the years and up till now that eugimon's been on this board, this is not the case. And might I remind you, he is being very restrained compared to many others. You're just reading things the way you want to read it.

You mean he can be even worse than this?!? Reading things the way I wanted to? Right. It wasn't until eugimon called some of us "bandaides" that Shin mentioned "yamaturds". Everyone's post had a polite tone to it when making opinions of the DX and in response to other posts, all except for eugimon. While not all his posts are like that, I detect harsh tone in a lot of posts, not just in this thread either.

[kensei]

You mean he can be even worse than this?!? Reading things the way I wanted to? Right.

Right. Because again:

...he is being very restrained compared to many others.

Not other times.

Edited May 23, 2008 by kensei

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Or perhaps hire the guy that made the VF-1 in the first place? Aren't all designers freelancers? Like I said before, Macross is about being a plane AND a robot, not one or the other. I've never seen Bandai do a good aircraft.

lol the only "aircraft" transformable is a flying brick with protruding rail cannons and sh^t like that from what i've seen.

Of course i'm talking about Gundam.

[Roger]

For those of you complaining about the anti-anything sentiment in this thread, go back a few dozen pages to where the guy on the Macrossworld masthead called the guys at Bandai "dicks." That pretty much set the tone.

Also, for the person who suggested getting the original Macross toy designers involved, most if not all of those guys are retired now. In fact, a friend who used to work there told me that the last couple of Takatoku employees that were still at Bandai left the company when the first round of 1/55 reissues were released, back around 2000. They got to see one of their toys reborn as they rode off into the sunset.

[Graham]

After studying the Bandai 1/60 DX VF-25 prototype pic some more, one of the reasons for the exposed cockpit hinge may be because the rear of the cockpit is right on the parting line, where the nose separates from the chest plate. There may just not be any room for a hidden hinge mechanism.

If you look at all the 1/48 and 1/60 Yamatos that have hidden cockpit hinges (VF-1, VF-0, YF-19, YF-19), there is sufficient space behind the canopy for a hidden hinge.

Perhaps the Bandai 1/72 VF-25 model prototype pics does not show a cockpit hinge, because the cockpit doesn't open?

Let's give the Bandai guys the benefit of the doubt and wait before we see some more advanced pics, before we start poanicking.

Graham

[Graham]

For those of you complaining about the anti-anything sentiment in this thread, go back a few dozen pages to where the guy on the Macrossworld masthead called the guys at Bandai "dicks." That pretty much set the tone.

That was for wearing Gundam jackets to a Macross meeting, not out of any disrespect for their design skills.

Graham

[Graham]

For those of you complaining about the anti-anything sentiment in this thread, go back a few dozen pages to where the guy on the Macrossworld masthead called the guys at Bandai "dicks." That pretty much set the tone.

Also, for the person who suggested getting the original Macross toy designers involved, most if not all of those guys are retired now. In fact, a friend who used to work there told me that the last couple of Takatoku employees that were still at Bandai left the company when the first round of 1/55 reissues were released, back around 2000. They got to see one of their toys reborn as they rode off into the sunset.

Generally, the tone of this thread has been quite positive I believe.

While, it's probably true that the majority of members here would prefer it if Yamato had the Frontier toy licence, the fact is that they don't and Bandai does.

Whether they are our first choice or not, I think we all want Bandai to succeed. After all, we all want nice toys of the Frontier mecha.

However, as has been stated by multiple members here, Bandai really need to prove themself in the Macross toy arena. Unfortunately, what they have shown so far does not really inspire a great deal of confidence.

However, I remain cautiously optmistic that the final VF-25DX product will hopefully be greatly improved over the early prototype shown.

Graham

[Twoducks]

That was for wearing Gundam jackets to a Macross meeting, not out of any disrespect for their design skills.

Graham

That's their work uniform.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Twoducks

[Graham]

I know, but I still think it was not cool.

Anyway, back to the toy discussion.

Oh......and Bandai sucks big sweaty donkey balls!

(Just kidding )

Graham

[transfan52]

Um, maybe it's because the other companies aren't that gay? If you are ever aware of Bandai's way of doing things, they are very inflexible, Ie:- they don't really practice listening to fans... the ugly prototype you saw is what you'll probably get as a final product. The only saving grace about Bandai is we can be sure of the durability and the mechanics of transformation will be of top quality.

So yeah, it's much easier for Yamato to imbue better build quality and mechanics on top of their already superb valk accuracy. That's why the level of butthurt is never the same. Don't know why you find it cute though - I don't swing that way.

LMAO, other companies arent that gay? wow the maturity level is staggering here.

[persona]

i think we should just wait. no amount of company bashing would matter anyway.

[danth]

I find it interesting that eugimon's always the first one to use harsh tone and call names.

In this thread at least, I agree.

Eugimon, we're in a thread where everyone is bashing Bandai's prototype, and you're angrily complaining about people bashing Yamato. I don't get it.

[AcroRay]

However, as has been stated by multiple members here, Bandai really need to prove themself in the Macross toy arena.

Bandai's a little late to pick up the torch, but that's no reason to think they won't hold it as high or higher than their competitors.

Given that Bandai hasn't really addressed any new Macross product for some time but has since (either themselves or their subcontractors) set the standards - I think - for the modern robot toy hobby, my expectation is that they'll develop a line of Valkyrie products that anyone outside the most religiously devoted Yamato/Hasegawa consumers will consider nothing short of stunning, with QC and presentation higher than most smaller companies could match, at competitive pricelines.

Kawamori, teamed with Bandai's crew who develop SOC and HG/MG product, doubly invested in developing product to support the media property they're creating and underwriting, working with the best tools and resources at the top company in the industry. I don't think any fan in their right mind could ask for a better formula or expect less than a damn good product. Perhaps not flawless in every little detail, but as close as is feasible.

All the rest, I think, is just obsessive nit-picking.

(Still, we have to have something to do until all that stuff actually makes it into our eager little hands, right?)

[QuinJester]

A lot of sensible stuff

I agree wholeheartedly. At this juncture, questionable prototypes nonwithstanding, I have no reason to believe that Bandai wont put out a seriously quality product. They aren't in this to spite Yamato or the non-gundam fans, they're in this for money, and they're no strangers to the high end toy industry.

As for the "Prototypes shown are final!" argument... one of Bandai's pre-production prototypes (that they even photo-opped for magazines!) for Daimos was made out of paper and sheet styrene for goodness' sakes; the panels and details were doodled on it in pencil!

[Beware of Blast]

I hope you're right QuinJester. IIRC, Bandai usually show their prototype to the public at the very last stages. From then on, we'll get pictures of the product in color then the official release after that. This is how they do it for the SOCs everytime.

[EXO]

I hope you're right QuinJester. IIRC, Bandai usually show their prototype to the public at the very last stages. From then on, we'll get pictures of the product in color then the official release after that. This is how they do it for the SOCs everytime.

The ones in Wonderfest (IIRC) were pretty early. I think it was to coincide with the release of Frontier and announce their return to the Macross arena. But Those were just quick mock ups... I dont think we've seen any production prototypes.

[AcroRay]

As for the "Prototypes shown are final!" argument... one of Bandai's pre-production prototypes (that they even photo-opped for magazines!) for Daimos was made out of paper and sheet styrene for goodness' sakes; the panels and details were doodled on it in pencil!

I think the individual who made that original suggestion is indicative of one of two factions making the observations voiced here:

One rather 'young' faction is largely only familiar with recent Macross product and a rather limited smattering of Japanese robot toys from current popular properties.

Another has experience with a much, much larger range of Macross and other Japanese robot toy products across several decades of collecting, including experience as manufacturers or involvement in development of that product or with the people who actually develop it.

Each has its... own perspective on trends and product development, so to speak. I try to keep that in mind as I read some of the observations here.

Not to say there aren't people new to the hobby who aren't quickly picking up a huge amount of experience and a good perspective.

[i expect this will inflame all sorts of feedback.]

Edited May 23, 2008 by AcroRay

[Kyp Durron]

As for the "Prototypes shown are final!" argument... one of Bandai's pre-production prototypes (that they even photo-opped for magazines!) for Daimos was made out of paper and sheet styrene for goodness' sakes; the panels and details were doodled on it in pencil!

This is a far cry from what you're describing. This isn't made out of paper and sheet styrene and those details damn sure aren't penciled in either. This is a fully transforming resin prototype that is obviously for the most part how we're gonna be getting this.

And, as others have said, the break point for transforming appears to be too close to the canopy for them not to use pegs to on the outside to raise and lower it. If they can't or won't change that, then that's an epic failure in my book because it makes it look much worse than it would otherwise.

I'd love to be wrong about this, because I was really looking forward to this.

-Kyp

[danth]

I just realized something. A prototype made with a rapid-prototyping machine isn't really set in stone at all. If I understand right, the computer model can be tweaked and then another prototype can be spat out. No biggie. But when you make toys the old fashioned way, carving the prototype out of wood or whatever, it's a big pain in the butt to change anything, so they usually don't.

Still. I've never seen a half decent-looking prototype that wasn't the finished design, except for Masterpiece Starscream.

[eugimon]

In this thread at least, I agree.

Eugimon, we're in a thread where everyone is bashing Bandai's prototype, and you're angrily complaining about people bashing Yamato. I don't get it.

Huh? I started off as pretty much the only person pointing out the flaws in the DX design. I pointed out the canopy pins, fyi. I made one comment about why people were giving this design a free pass when historically speaking, MW as a whole has been very very very critical of any departure from the line art. I'll refer to David and my own bitter debate over the angle of the 1/60 yf-19 wings.

So when people, who have been very critical of the various yamato design for offenses much less than having giant hinges exposed are saying how this turd looks "good" and happy with the design, I just have to wonder and point it out.

Again, if this were a yamato design, we would have comparisons with the line art, super imposed on each other. All minor deviations from the line art would be highlighted in bright colors, people would be photoshoping the images to make their own suggested fixes. People would be changing their signatures with demands like: BANDAI REMOVE THOSE HINGE PINS! And at least one person here would (and is) be calling yamato a bunch of yamaturds and saying that people who buy these are idiots and yamatoized and whatever else. People who defended the design would be personally attacked saying how they're sheep and how they're too stupid to remember, blah blah blah.

So I, mostly in response to BoB in another thread, start using the term Bandaides, and suddenly I'm the guy who started the name calling?

BTW, consider the source: badboy00z... lmao, you're the last person who gets to criticize other people around here on negativity. Since you came on this site all you do is go into threads and troll.

Edited May 23, 2008 by eugimon

[eugimon]

I just realized something. A prototype made with a rapid-prototyping machine isn't really set in stone at all. If I understand right, the computer model can be tweaked and then another prototype can be spat out. No biggie. But when you make toys the old fashioned way, carving the prototype out of wood or whatever, it's a big pain in the butt to change anything, so they usually don't.

Still. I've never seen a half decent-looking prototype that wasn't the finished design, except for Masterpiece Starscream.

I doubt the DX prototype is the result of a rapid prototyping machine. If you compare the earlier mock ups that were put out, you can see the layering/removal process that most RPMs use. Curved surfaces look blocky, if we were talking about computer graphics, like the AA wasn't turned on. The current DX looks a resign model who's pieces came out of molds, which means they're probably pretty far along in the process.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I dont think we've seen any production prototypes.

I don't think so either.

The current DX looks a resign model who's pieces came out of molds, which means they're probably pretty far along in the process.

Doubt it, if it were, it would have already been molded in plastic and the canopy would have been clear. This is still resin, chances are the mold is not even finished.

So when people, who have been very critical of the various yamato design for offenses much less than having giant hinges exposed are saying how this turd looks "good" and happy with the design, I just have to wonder and point it out.

Maybe because we haven't even seen CAD line art or anything to even indicate what was shown in the ad was final?

This is a fully transforming resin prototype that is obviously for the most part how we're gonna be getting this.

Doubt it, too early to tell. When we see a CAD render and painted pics, then I'll agree with you.

Its funny, the VF-25 plamo on display at shizuoka had thumb/finger prints on them up close. Yet everyone apparently knows that kind of detail won't make it onto the final product. Yet people also think what we see for the DX VF-25 is final.

[jenius]

Is 'yamaturd' a new term for Yamato fans? I'm not sure I like it. Anyway, take a look at Yamato's GNU pics. Those things are painted and posed but we keep hearing they're roughs that don't accurately reflect the final product. I think we all need to take a breath when it comes to condemning this Bandai effort.

[eugimon]

Is 'yamaturd' a new term for Yamato fans? I'm not sure I like it. Anyway, take a look at Yamato's GNU pics. Those things are painted and posed but we keep hearing they're roughs that don't accurately reflect the final product. I think we all need to take a breath when it comes to condemning this Bandai effort.

well, stuff like the finish of the plastic, the fit of the parts were better on the finished GNU toys but stuff like the design and proportions came through.

Again, I'm not disapointed about the DX because I don't see panel lines or the parts don't fit well. Obviously stuff like that gets resolved, I'm talking about the overall proportions and mechanics.

For instance, if this were just a mockup, why bother putting a hinge on the canopy? Why not just have it taped in place? Why bother re-designing the fuselage/canopy for a one off? Doesn't make sense.

[danth]

Huh? I started off as pretty much the only person pointing out the flaws in the DX design. I pointed out the canopy pins, fyi. I made one comment about why people were giving this design a free pass when historically speaking, MW as a whole has been very very very critical of any departure from the line art. I'll refer to David and my own bitter debate over the angle of the 1/60 yf-19 wings.

I don't think it's getting a free pass. I think we can all agree that the canopy hinge really sucks. The battroid's arms seem a bit too long as well. I think a lot of us are relieved that this toy already looks light-years ahead of the craptastic Bandai VF-19. Maybe people just don't expect as much from Bandai when it comes to Macross toys.

So when people, who have been very critical of the various yamato design for offenses much less than having giant hinges exposed are saying how this turd looks "good" and happy with the design, I just have to wonder and point it out.

Honestly, I didn't even notice the hinge until it was pointed out, so I think others might not have noticed at first. The general shape and detail of the toy look pretty decent to me, though. But I'm not too familiar with the VF-25 design yet. I'm super critical of the VF-1 and YF-19 toys because I'm very familiar with exactly how they should look.

Again, if this were a yamato design, we would have comparisons with the line art, super imposed on each other. All minor deviations from the line art would be highlighted in bright colors, people would be photoshoping the images to make their own suggested fixes. People would be changing their signatures with demands like: BANDAI REMOVE THOSE HINGE PINS! And at least one person here would (and is) be calling yamato a bunch of yamaturds and saying that people who buy these are idiots and yamatoized and whatever else. People who defended the design would be personally attacked saying how they're sheep and how they're too stupid to remember, blah blah blah.

I think people just get more excited about Yamato toys in general, and the iconic designs they get to make into toys. I know I don't care so much about the VF-25. But I did appreciate the post that had the Battroid line art next to the Battroid prototype. Someone should do that for the fighter mode.

[eugimon]

after listening to various people praise bandai and how they would show yamato a thing or two, and how "perfect grade technology" would make yamato crap in their pants and how if bandai made the 1/48 you could shoot it with a gun and the bullet would break... yeah, I expected more as well.

and yeah, it looks better than the bandai vf-19, but to me, it looks about as good as their decent vf-17. but again, that was 13 years ago and that effort was eventually matched by yamato, 8 years ago.

Edited May 23, 2008 by eugimon

[danth]

Is 'yamaturd' a new term for Yamato fans? I'm not sure I like it.

I guess "Yamatard" is too obvious?

[CF18]

The external canopy hinge remines me of the external hinges on the SOC Gunbuster shoulder flaps. They are bigger and more obvious on the Gunbuster, but the toy is still rated as one of the best SOC. The SOC Gunbuster is also not known to be "accurate". It got tons of extra weapons that are non-canon but appeared on the Gunbuster in SRW video games.

May be we are just expecting too much. Yamato has been doing model+toy 2 in 1. Bandai have separate departments for toy and model, so the DX toy and 1:72 models are handled by different teams with different focus. We are not likely to get the best of both world in one package - i.e. high accuracy model v.s. durable toy.

Edited May 23, 2008 by CF18