Macross 25th Anniversary and Macross F/Frontier news thread III

[Zinjo]

I think it's telling that the YF-19 and YF-21 had to use "dirty tricks" to get through Earth's planetary Defense Grid. It suggests that sensor systems can use clues like exhaust heat, atmospheric disturbances and visual imagery to get a general idea of where a Macross type stealth platform is. The stealth systems provide enough cover for a skilled pilot to sneak past unwary foes and to force alert enemies to "close the range" before engaging (as has already been suggested).

The active stealth abilities of all VFs work primarily on RADAR, which is why the Cyclops sensors were developed.

The Cyclops sensor system "sees" the variable fighters that RADAR cannot, which is the likeliest reason why Isamu and Guld had to resort to "dirty tricks" to fool the planetary defense platforms.

I would expect by the 2040's that some form of limited range Cyclops sensors would have been developed for aircraft, but it is doubtful it would be as sophisitcated or have the same range as what would be found aboard cap ships and defense platforms...

[Mr March]

What long range weapons do Variable Fighters typically carry that are not missiles?

I don't understand why mentioning that "the gun pod is shown firing beyond visual range" should mean anything in the context of your original statement.

I think you need to re-read the earlier posts. These two questions you just asked answer themselves!

Nonetheless, I'll try to help explain myself more clearly. If a Valkyrie can attack something beyond visual range without using missiles, then that would be considered a long range weapon in the context of my discussion.

Now, when the gun pod is used to strike targets beyond visual range (max vs. battle pods, hikaru vs. theatre scout, etc), the only method a pilot has for detecting and targeting an enemy he can't actually see because it's too far away is radar or optical electronic detection. Thus the capability to "shoot down missiles" does not mean a Valkyrie is without long range attack when they can use gun pod fire long range or laser/beam cannon/particle cannon fire long range. But such long range combat only rarely occurs in mecha combat in Macross. So there must be a ANOTHER reason why long range fighting in Macross is rare. A possible answer: stealth.

[Zinjo]

Now, when the gun pod is used to strike targets beyond visual range (max vs. battle pods, hikaru vs. theatre scout, etc), the only method a pilot has for detecting and targeting an enemy he can't actually see because it's too far away is radar or optical electronic detection. Thus the capability to "shoot down missiles" does not mean a Valkyrie is without long range attack when they can use gun pod fire long range or laser/beam cannon/particle cannon fire long range. But such long range combat only rarely occurs in mecha combat in Macross. So there must be a ANOTHER reason why long range fighting in Macross is rare. A possible answer: stealth.

Nuh uh...

[l_e_m]

I think you need to re-read the earlier posts. These two questions you just asked answer themselves!

I didn't think so, which is why I asked.

Nonetheless, I'll try to help explain myself more clearly. If a Valkyrie can attack something beyond visual range without using missiles, then that would be considered a long range weapon in the context of my discussion.

That's a very liberal definition of beyond visual range.

When you say beyond visual range (BVR), I think of 20nm+ and further away, the range of an AIM-7.

Now, when the gun pod is used to strike targets beyond visual range (max vs. battle pods, hikaru vs. theatre scout, etc), the only method a pilot has for detecting and targeting an enemy he can't actually see because it's too far away is radar or optical electronic detection. Thus the capability to "shoot down missiles" does not mean a Valkyrie is without long range attack when they can use gun pod fire long range or laser/beam cannon/particle cannon fire long range. But such long range combat only rarely occurs in mecha combat in Macross. So there must be a ANOTHER reason why long range fighting in Macross is rare. A possible answer: stealth.

With the help of a laser and optical system (limited by resolution), pilots could probably snipe at targets in space with a ballistic weapon from long range if the target moves straight and does not drift.

The ability to shoot down missiles negates any effective long range capability in Macross. See Macross 0 (many times), DYRL (many times), and Macross Plus (Isamu vs. Guld), and the original Macross (Max vs. Milia). Some Variable/Conventional Fighters have the ability to use their acceleration to avoid missiles (Nora vs Shin (F-14A+), Guld vs HMM, and Guild vs Ghost).

IMHO, long range fighting does not occur in Macross because it is not consistently effective, not solely because of stealth.

[cyde01]

あんた？どんだけ～。丁寧語まだ分からん？パソコンの翻訳を使った？

俺は日本人と違うよ。

ムカつく!! 外国人のくせして俺の日本語にグチつけねえでくれよ!! あんたと違って、こっちは一応日本人なんだよ!! 敬語? フツーこんな掲示板で使わんでもいいだろ!! 毎回、毎回、俺の翻訳にグチつけやがって。。

[Valkyrie addict]

the YF-22 was chosen over the YF-23 for a very simple reason, it was as the cheaper of the two, the defense department decided it was more cost effective to have a fighter that was not as advanced as the YF-23 but yielded similar results and was cheaper to built and mantain rather than the overly complex design of the futuristic YF-23, as well as the YF-23 which had a few glitches that didn't help either...but the YF-23 was superior to the YF-22 but was turn down primarly over it's high cost

still, the F-22 raptor is an amazing fighter already

[Mr March]

Nuh uh...

[red vs blue mode]

"Shut up, you!"

I didn't think so, which is why I asked.

That's a very liberal definition of beyond visual range.

When you say beyond visual range (BVR), I think of 20nm+ and further away, the range of an AIM-7.

With the help of a laser and optical system (limited by resolution), pilots could probably snipe at targets in space with a ballistic weapon from long range if the target moves straight and does not drift.

The ability to shoot down missiles negates any effective long range capability in Macross. See Macross 0 (many times), DYRL (many times), and Macross Plus (Isamu vs. Guld), and the original Macross (Max vs. Milia). Some Variable/Conventional Fighters have the ability to use their acceleration to avoid missiles (Nora vs Shin (F-14A+), Guld vs HMM, and Guild vs Ghost).

IMHO, long range fighting does not occur in Macross because it is not consistently effective, not solely because of stealth.

Well, given that ranges are never stated for Valkyrie combat in Macross and the one long-range missile combat with Valkyries that we do see is just outside visual range before it turns into a melee furball (opening DYRL?) I'd say any specific definition of long range combat is just as arbitrary, AIM-7 or not. Also, shooting down missiles obviously doesn't negate long range combat since we see missiles used effectively at long range despite that capability (DYRL? again, SDFM hikaru vs. scout, etc). The fact that medium range missiles are still in extensive use all the way up to M+/M7 tells me it's not for lack of effectiveness as much as detection. I suppose it's possible the rarity of long range valkyrie combat could be a combination of both point defense and stealth, but to my mind I think stealth plays a larger role and makes more sense taking into account all of Macross. Much like ECA does. But that's just my opinion for what it's worth.

[Ironside]

Welcome to MacrossWorld Ironside.

Just something to note: energy converting armor being a staple of All Valkyries is not fan speculation; that is official according to the translations of the official VF-0 statistics. Also, as others have recently revealed to me, Kawamori himself spoke of energy converting armor many years before Macross Zero (I believe his first words on the subject were dated at some time in the early 1990s).

Thanks.

I'm not calling SWAG speculation. I've read the VF-0 Entry on the Compendium, so I'm aware that it exists in the canon. The specualtion is that it is a part of the entire VF lineage. There's no "Official" confirmation of that, beyond SK's remarks (much like there was not "proof" that the VF-4 could transform until VFX, in spite of SK remarks that it did transform). HOWEVER, the lack documents to prove the issue does not mean that the speculation is not correct. SWAG is likely a precursor to a system installed on all VFs (which helps to explain why they don't fly apart during transformation).

My point was, even though most official documentation of VFs omits mention of Active Stealth, the fact that it was on the VF-0 implies that it has probably been on every VF since. This may not be the case, as not every VF was built for UN use (A number being designed for economy (for use by colony governments). But I suspect that AS has been on every UNSpacy VF since the VF-0.

The active stealth abilities of all VFs work primarily on RADAR, which is why the Cyclops sensors were developed.

The Cyclops sensor system "sees" the variable fighters that RADAR cannot, which is the likeliest reason why Isamu and Guld had to resort to "dirty tricks" to fool the planetary defense platforms.

I would expect by the 2040's that some form of limited range Cyclops sensors would have been developed for aircraft, but it is doubtful it would be as sophisitcated or have the same range as what would be found aboard cap ships and defense platforms...

Have you got a source for this, because I've never heard the like. The Cyclops system is simply described as a "cross-dimension radar that can detect PCS readings."

Isamu got into micro-missile range of the defense grid, destroyed several satellites and began re-entry before the grid started firing at him. Sharon was controlling the system and she knew he was coming. It is possible that she let him pass, but Sharon seemed to be genuinely trying to kill him, so I doubt that. She had no compuction against fighting unfairly, she manipulated Yang in to shooting him! Odds are, the grid didn't destroy the YF-19 because it couldn't see it.

It seems less than likely that Cyclops has some special power over the VF active stealth systems. It seems more likely that VF stealth provides protection in a manner similar to that of stealth in the real world. Minimizing the chance of long range detection.

As far as I know we don't know how the active stealth system works. I'm unaware of any evidence that says it would not work on Cyclops.

Stealth is not a magic bullet. It reduces the "return" from "radar". Radar obeys the inverse square law. It's effectiveness drops by a factor of a square of the distance. If a radar is 100% effective at 5 miles, it is only 50% effective at 10, because any given object gets 50% less radiation from the emitter. If Cyclops is a "radar" as described then it probably obeys the same principle, and there are probably ways to defeat it. If Cyclops is a Passive system, then PCS or whatever magic energy it is detecting probably obeys the inverse square law and there are probably ways to mask emissions. In other words, I don't think Cyclops is a magic bullet either.

[TehPW]

Surprised that nobody has commented on the "J" head side view shown in the MBS banner (see pic below).

I really like the look of the head from the side.

Graham

Me sees guns on the cheeks on our 25J's head camera. Is me seeing things, Sir?

Edited December 13, 2007 by pensives_wetness

[Mr March]

Thanks.

I'm not calling SWAG speculation. I've read the VF-0 Entry on the Compendium, so I'm aware that it exists in the canon. The specualtion is that it is a part of the entire VF lineage. There's no "Official" confirmation of that, beyond SK's remarks (much like there was not "proof" that the VF-4 could transform until VFX, in spite of SK remarks that it did transform). HOWEVER, the lack documents to prove the issue does not mean that the speculation is not correct. SWAG is likely a precursor to a system installed on all VFs (which helps to explain why they don't fly apart during transformation).

When unifying continuity, the creators remarks are accepted unless they are specifically contradicted by canon events (such as the VF-11C internal missile bay debate). As for the ECA, the official translation specifically says "Future variable fighters will incorporate similar technology." Perhaps the ECA in VF-1 and later Valkyries is not specifically designated as SWAG-type ECA, but it's clear similar ECA is part of all variable fighters and that is not fan speculation. Once official information has been expressly stated like that, we're stuck with ECA whether it's good or bad, whether it helps continuity or creates a problem to reconcile.

[l_e_m]

My point was, even though most official documentation of VFs omits mention of Active Stealth, the fact that it was on the VF-0 implies that it has probably been on every VF since. This may not be the case, as not every VF was built for UN use (A number being designed for economy (for use by colony governments). But I suspect that AS has been on every UNSpacy VF since the VF-0.

I don't have a problem with VFs having an active stealth system.

I just don't think that the active stealth is the reason why most combat occurs at short range.

Governments will downgrade or degrade sensitive systems in export fighters to their allies. It's a relatively common practice.

Edited December 13, 2007 by l_e_m

[Valkyrie addict]

after reading all this, I have a question

with an advance detection system as the cyclops that practically renders 20th century stealth technology useless, why do they keep using them in advance VF's??

[Mr March]

Hmmm, good question. Perhaps another thread would be better for this.

[Morikazu001]

Hi everybody, this is my first real post.

As to why the YF-23 was not chosen in the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition, there were a few deciding factors. I followed the competition closely at the time and the Yf-22 was found to be more maneuverable than the YF-23 and was one of the deciding factors. The YF-23 did have a smaller Radar Cross Section than the YF-22 and was faster. Unofficially I heard that what won the competition for the YF-22 was the USAF leadership preferred the more conservative design.

As to stealth aircraft having a radar signature of a "flock of birds", it all comes down to Radar Cross Section (RCS), the amount of energy that is reflected back to the radar unit. The F-117 returns as much energy to a radar as a small flock of birds would, while the B-2 is said to return as much as a small bird due to its more advanced design. Active Stealth is a theoretical system that has been researched in the past that cancels out the radar wave. In theory an aircraft like a B-52, which has a RCS of a blimp, invisible to radar. I'm sure this is what the VF have since SK seems to use a lot of real world technology in his designs.

Recently I heard that Lockheed-Martin has developed a way to mount external stores on stealth aircraft. It involves the use of weapons that are stealth themselves or are contained in pods that are stealth. They are developing this technology for the proposed FB-22 fighter-bomber.

anyway, thats the info I have regarding stealth technology and the YF-22/YF-23 competition. Hope its helpful.

[deadghost]

can some get a COUNT DOWN time clock going on, all this hype is eating me alive, I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE.

[Graham]

Some thoughts on stealth in the Macross universe.

1. The VF-0 series was designed as a testbed for Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Presumably the active stealth system was part of this Overtechnology being tested. IMO It is most unlikely that the VF-1 series featured an active stealth system.
2. I do not think that all VFs have stealth, unless it is specifically stated. This means that only the SV-51, VF-0, YF-19, VF-19, YF-21 & VF-22 feature active stealth systems and only the VF-17 and possibly the YF-21 & VF-22 feature passive stealth.
3. We know extremely little about the Cyclops radar, other than what the Compendium states, which is: “Cross dimension radar developed with Overtechnology which can detect PCS readings”. Where are people getting that Cyclops can detect VFs that are using active or passive stealth?
4. Even assuming that a Cyclops radar or other advanced system can to some degree detect Stealth VFs, I would imagine that the detection ability varies depending on the technology level and power of the stealth system Vs. the technology level and power of the stealth-detection system. i.e. a VF with a more technologically advanced and powerful Stealth system, such as the YF-21, could probably slip by an older less advanced and less powerful detection system, whereas a newer detection system may have a greater chance of spotting it.
5. Possibly stealth capability is restricted to UN forces only by law and civilian fleet defense forces are forbidden from possessing this capability. In the event that a colony fleet rebelled against the UN, their not having stealth would give the UN forces who did have stealthy VFs a huge advantages in battle.
6. Spiritia detection systems such as possessed by the Varauta seem to render both passive and active stealth systems ineffective.

Graham

[Graham]

Fan speculation. They haven't put out the actual designations yet. I'd prefer the use of "Hikaru-colors" or "Focker-colors". The VF-17D only had 2 head lasers. The VF-0S only had 2 head lasers. For all we know, the "Hikaru-colored" VF-25 could be a VF-25A.

I'm calling it a "J' for the moment, rather than a "D", to avoid confusion, as not every member here has watched Macross 7, where as probably everyone has seen SDFM TV.

Besides, the side view pic of the head I posted quite resembles a "J" IMO. It's even got the pointy chin.

Graham

[VF5SS]

SWAG is likely a precursor to a system installed on all VFs (which helps to explain why they don't fly apart during transformation).

I think there is a misunderstanding about the nature of SWAG in relation to the structural durability of a Valkyrie. I honestly believe that the creators behind Macross did not intend SWAG to be a poorly thought out active system that acts like a Star Trek structural integrity field. I.E. the fighter will collapse without the system if it does something strenuous. It seems more like likely that the SWAG system boosts the already impressive properties of Hyper Carbon but does not supplant the need to design a variable fighter that can transform with no additional system other than the actuators that physically move the parts.

[Graham]

A few different theories on why the 2059 era VF-25 & VF-171 are shown carrying external ordnance on the wings, when in the 2040s’ internal weapon bays were standard: -

1. Even if the VF-25 & VF-171 have stealth capability, perhaps the bugs have some method to easily detect them anyway, rendering Stealth useless. Thus the VFs might as well carry more weapons externally, rather than just be limited to what is in their internal weapon bays.

2. Perhaps by 2059, advances in active stealth technology allow for carriage of external weapons while still maintaining stealth.

3. Stealth technology may be restricted to UN military forces only and forbidden to civilian defense organizations, such as SMS. Thus it makes sense to carry more weapons externally as you don't have to worry about compromising stealth if you don’t have it.

Graham

[Morikazu001]

A few different theories on why the 2059 era VF-25 & VF-171 are shown carrying external ordnance on the wings, when in the 2040s’ internal weapon bays were standard: -

1. Even if the VF-25 & VF-171 have stealth capability, perhaps the bugs have some method to easily detect them anyway, rendering Stealth useless. Thus the VFs might as well carry more weapons externally, rather than just be limited to what is in their internal weapon bays.

2. Perhaps by 2059, advances in active stealth technology allow for carriage of external weapons while still maintaining stealth.

3. Stealth technology may be restricted to UN military forces only and forbidden to civilian defense organizations, such as SMS. Thus it makes sense to carry more weapons externally as you don't have to worry about compromising stealth if you don’t have it.

Graham

There could be another reason for the VF-25 & VF-171 to be carrying external ordinance. They might have decided that the benefits of the extra ordinance outweighs the drawback of compromising stealth. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is designed to carry external ordinance on missions where the extra firepower is needed more than stealth, so it could be a similar situation. Just a thought I had

[Mr March]

Some thoughts on stealth in the Macross universe.

1. The VF-0 series was designed as a testbed for Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Presumably the active stealth system was part of this Overtechnology being tested. IMO It is most unlikely that the VF-1 series featured an active stealth system.
2. I do not think that all VFs have stealth, unless it is specifically stated. This means that only the SV-51, VF-0, YF-19, VF-19, YF-21 & VF-22 feature active stealth systems and only the VF-17 and possibly the YF-21 & VF-22 feature passive stealth.
3. We know extremely little about the Cyclops radar, other than what the Compendium states, which is: “Cross dimension radar developed with Overtechnology which can detect PCS readings”. Where are people getting that Cyclops can detect VFs that are using active or passive stealth?
4. Even assuming that a Cyclops radar or other advanced system can to some degree detect Stealth VFs, I would imagine that the detection ability varies depending on the technology level and power of the stealth system Vs. the technology level and power of the stealth-detection system. i.e. a VF with a more technologically advanced and powerful Stealth system, such as the YF-21, could probably slip by an older less advanced and less powerful detection system, whereas a newer detection system may have a greater chance of spotting it.
5. Possibly stealth capability is restricted to UN forces only by law and civilian fleet defense forces are forbidden from possessing this capability. In the event that a colony fleet rebelled against the UN, their not having stealth would give the UN forces who did have stealthy VFs a huge advantages in battle.
6. Spiritia detection systems such as possessed by the Varauta seem to render both passive and active stealth systems ineffective.

Graham

I will agree that assuming all Valkyries have stealth is just speculation. However, I find it equally as unlikely that the UN Forces had a working active stealth system as early as 2008 which then sat on a shelf for 32 years before another active stealth Valkyrie was built. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Cyclops radar is described somewhat specifically (too specifically actually, as a silly single-function technology developed despite a lack of need...until it miraculously found use when the plot required), but super dimension radar was specifically mentioned in Macross 7. There is also all the instances of FTL detection in the original SDFM and we know electromagnetic transmissions function through super dimension space (fold communications). As for the Valkyries, I doubt they use a terrestrial detection system, but I will grant that Cyclops mounted systems on a Valkyrie is just speculation.

I think electronic warfare in Macross maintaining the competitive shifts between stealth and detection goes without saying and is kinda irrelevant to the bigger question which would ask at what level the game starts after the introduction of OverTechnology.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Mr March

[badboy00z]

"RP-51 ACTIVE STEALTH SYSTEM: The SV-51 is equipped with a brand new and revolutionary stealth system that when activated render the aircraft almost invisible to standard sensors such a radar. Unlike passive stealth systems like those used by the USAF F-117, the SV-51's stealth system is an ACTIVE stealth that actually bends radar waves around the fighter rather than reflecting them. When activated this system gives the SV-51 a +2 to initiative and a +1 to strike at all times. NOTE: Since the SV-51's stealth capability is a system,(the primary part of the system is an antennae which runs along the circumference of the nose,) and not a design feature, it can be damaged or destroyed. Once the aircraft has lost half of its main body MDC, there is a 50% chance that the stealth system will fail every time the main body of the SV-51 is hit. Once the stealth system has failed it will not work again until repaired at the fighters base."

From Macrossroleplay.org

[l_e_m]

I will agree that assuming all Valkyries have stealth is just speculation. However, I find it equally as unlikely that the UN Forces had a working active stealth system as early as 2008 which then sat on a shelf for 32 years before another active stealth Valkyrie was built. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

What we call an "active stealth" system could be a function of advanced models of active scanned array used in later VFs.

That's my best guess.

Edited December 14, 2007 by l_e_m

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It was said long ago that the VF-0 was not a mature design, whereas the SV-51 was always meant for combat use; the VF-0 being used mainly to test what was going into the VF-1. With that said, even if it did have active stealth, it might not have been mature enough by the end of the program, and too early to put into the VF-1. Even if the stealth system was made prior to the VF-1, it might have had a lot of kinks to figure out before going into operational use. If the VF-25 has some form of active stealth it would not be surprising since the YF-19 and 21 had it. This would explain why the 25 can be stealthy and have external stores as well.

[azrael]

From Macrossroleplay.org

Does it also have a -10 on the initiative roll for the opponent as well? Be very careful about posting info from RPG websites.

I honestly believe that the creators behind Macross did not intend SWAG to be a poorly thought out active system that acts like a Star Trek structural integrity field. I.E. the fighter will collapse without the system if it does something strenuous. It seems more like likely that the SWAG system boosts the already impressive properties of Hyper Carbon but does not supplant the need to design a variable fighter that can transform with no additional system other than the actuators that physically move the parts.

It was intended to give the VFs a means of carrying durable armor without the added weight and explain why a VF could crash into a building without disintegrating on impact like a normal plane.

[scottrossi]

after watching M0 and M7, i always imagined the stealth properties of the mecha and spacecraft to be similar to the "no-ships" and "no-globes" from Frank Herbert's Dune Universe. I am not sure why, but I guess the little part of me that listened in physics class in high school figured it would be <s>better</s> EASIER/CHEAPER to have a mechanism that matches and cancels out radar and sensor waves, as opposed to bending them. of course, back then, we didn't cover quantum physics and all that, so who knows ... this is a good debate, on the stealth and whatnot, but it might just be a moot point. SK might have just said to himself, "ok, Overtechnology just allows active stealth." and left it at that, lol.

that's my 2 cents anyway.

Edited December 14, 2007 by scottrossi

[Sorata]

Hi everybody, this is my first real post.

As to why the YF-23 was not chosen in the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition, there were a few deciding factors. I followed the competition closely at the time and the Yf-22 was found to be more maneuverable than the YF-23 and was one of the deciding factors. The YF-23 did have a smaller Radar Cross Section than the YF-22 and was faster. Unofficially I heard that what won the competition for the YF-22 was the USAF leadership preferred the more conservative design.

Yep that statement is very true. I was a US Navy aviator before my forced medical discharge (I still hold a grudge to that doctor, he unintentionally lied) and I watched the competition closely back then too (this took place before I joined the military), I have a relative who works for Lockheed on electronics systems on several of their aircraft from the C-130 to the YF-22. He informed me that during the testing a pilot flying the YF-22 performed a Pougachev cobra manuver and the more difficult Kulbit mauvers and that internal video exist that has the YF-22 performing better than that. But to the competitions credit the YF-23 could perform well to but wasnt as manuverable as the YF-22 Yes cost was a factor as was the conservative design but the YF-23 was faster but had bugs. But then again due to family/company ties I may have an unintended bias.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Sorata

[sketchley]

Uhm... as interesting as the discussion of stealth is, and it is interesting, can we move it to another thread? This thread is supposed to be about Macross F, and a number of the posts in the last few pages are so far off on a tangent that I can't really call it speculation about Macross F any longer.

Thank you.

[Duke Togo]

Uhm... as interesting as the discussion of stealth is, and it is interesting, can we move it to another thread? This thread is supposed to be about Macross F, and a number of the posts in the last few pages are so far off on a tangent that I can't really call it speculation about Macross F any longer.

Thank you.

Yeah, we're wandering off the reservation again.

[Mr March]

I suggested that a page back already But since the big guy is okay with the tangent, I'm okay with the tangent

[s001]

It was said long ago that the VF-0 was not a mature design, whereas the SV-51 was always meant for combat use; the VF-0 being used mainly to test what was going into the VF-1. With that said, even if it did have active stealth, it might not have been mature enough by the end of the program, and too early to put into the VF-1. Even if the stealth system was made prior to the VF-1, it might have had a lot of kinks to figure out before going into operational use. If the VF-25 has some form of active stealth it would not be surprising since the YF-19 and 21 had it. This would explain why the 25 can be stealthy and have external stores as well.

I think Kawamori gave the VF-0 all the available cool features of the VF's to make the series more interesting and visually more impressive without paying too much attention to the continuity in the technological evolution of variable fighters.

Just my two cents.

[Aero of Steel]

DengekiOnline.com has Macross F info....

http://www.dengekionline.com/data/news/200...25cd0fca3c.html

[Mr March]

Fantastic! These are somewhat larger than the other pictures. Click...save...click...save

Welcome to Macross World Aero of Steel! Thanks for sharing the link.

[Valkyrie addict]

Yep that statement is very true. I was a US Navy aviator before my forced medical discharge (I still hold a grudge to that doctor, he unintentionally lied) and I watched the competition closely back then too (this took place before I joined the military), I have a relative who works for Lockheed on electronics systems on several of their aircraft from the C-130 to the YF-22. He informed me that during the testing a pilot flying the YF-22 performed a Pougachev cobra manuver and the more difficult Kulbit mauvers and that internal video exist that has the YF-22 performing better than that. But to the competitions credit the YF-23 could perform well to but wasnt as manuverable as the YF-22 Yes cost was a factor as was the conservative design but the YF-23 was faster but had bugs. But then again due to family/company ties I may have an unintended bias.

what was the medical reason you got discharged?

[Morikazu001]

Aero of Steel, thank you for the link.

The more I see the VF-25 the more I like the Hikaru color scheme version