Macross 25th Anniversary and Macross F/Frontier news thread III

[kensei]

Awesome. Looks like we have our "S" and "J"-like models.

[GGemini]

=======================================

071212, 10:36 JST

Alto, 16 years old

He was born in the lineage of Kabuki female role and has Pilot Genius, so his father want him become to Pilot.

Hmm... "Pilot Genius"... sounds a lot like another blu-haired Jenius pilot. Maybe they're related?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

J head FTW. Now we know why Alto looks feminine, and Sheryl sounds like a batty.

[sketchley]

Yes. I've been running the MBS page through machine translators but when I see "New UN Spacy" (or better "New UN military), something doesn't sound right with that.

新 could also be translated (in part) as remade, reformed, refreshed, renewed, and re- (the prefex.)

It may seem strange to us, as English speakers tend not to use, in addition to it not being applied consistantly in Japanese. Therefore, I'm left with two interpretations:

1) It's a name, just like New York, or other cities, states, islands, and countries that include it.

2) It's being used specifically in this instant to denote that the UN Armed Forces (UN Spacy) has been remade anew; either directly because of the last cannon events that we saw (VF-X2) or something after that but before Macross Frontier.

[Duke Togo]

Ozma, 27 years old

Chief Pilot of Private(私設) Special Duty Military Organization(特務軍事機関) SMS, Ranka's old brother but they are no kin. Beacase one private action, He was deprived of the military.

Ok, this smells like they're cooking up friction between the SMS forces and the UN forces in the fleet. The SMS, private contractors made up of people bounced out of the UNS and cocky veterans who left to seek their fortunes with these organizations. This would probably follow in the line of the Guld/Isamu and Gamlin/Basara conflicts.

[Duke Togo]

Hmm... "Pilot Genius"... sounds a lot like another blu-haired Jenius pilot. Maybe they're related?

It wouldn't shock me, as lame as that would be, but I am going to guess, no.

[Valkyrie addict]

"pilot genius" well...as long as he doesn't start owning everyone since the first episode like a certain other mecha show I guess I could put up with it

so, it's confirmed then, SMS is a privately own sorta civilian squadron...

[Kelsain]

The Hikaru-colored VF-25's head doesn't look right. It looks too Photoshopped.

I think it looks a little off as well. Actually, it seems to be the neutrality of the pose and angle that makes it less appealing to me. At least the "S" has a gunpod and is looking at the camera. The other reason I'm not crazy about it now is that I really like the 3 eye setup on the S. I'll probably appreciate it more when we get to see it in action, though.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Kelsain

[charger69]

Do you remember the first shoots of SV-51?

They were showing us the head unit of SV-51 with maturity sunglasses...then we had three bars and the red eye (YEAHH)

BEFORE

AFTER

AND YF-21 has also three-eye like head unit (even four)*

*:Thanks to Mr.March for the YF-21 picture

Edited December 12, 2007 by charger69

[Duke Togo]

so, it's confirmed then, SMS is a privately own sorta civilian squadron...

Hmm, paramilitary force would be a bit more accurate. Private contractors. I'm expecting them to come off as hard core professionals, with an attitude.

[badboy00z]

Hmmm, maybe it's just the angle but the sucked in gut on the Hikaru type VF-25 is more apparent then the Focker type.

[TheLoneWolf]

Ozma, 27 years old

Chief Pilot of Private(私設) Special Duty Military Organization(特務軍事機関) SMS, Ranka's old brother but they are no kin. Beacase once private action, he has been deprived of the military.

So here we have a male character who is older and a potential badass. Therefore, according to Macross cliche', he will die.

[Kelsain]

So here we have a male character who is older and a potential badass. Therefore, according to Macross cliche', he will die.

Maybe blue boy will cut his hair and take over Ozma's sweet ride.

[Zinjo]

OK just read through the thread and I had a few questions:

1) What's up with the external weapons? I thought the trend from Macross Plus onwards was STEALTH and INTERNAL WEAPON BAYS. Could this be a hint that the VF-25 might be AVF's but w/o stealth. Maybe something like:

VF-19 & VF-22 = Highly advanced Fighters with stealth technology but still expensive to manufacture.

VF-25 = the new VF-1 or VF-11, perhaps that are mass produced cheaply, has no advance stealth tech but instead has the other advanced tech that

were developed in the Project Super Nova fighters.

"Stealth" in space doesn't necessarily require internal weapons bays, especially due to the Cyclops sensors. The VF-17 was designed after the F-117 that had a shape to fool radar into showing the signature of a flock of birds. Birds don't fly in space... With VF's, the stealth is implied active stealth AFAIK so it's silloutte is essentially irrelevant. The internal bay fighters are probably expensive to produce and the main benefit of internal missile racks is to allow for additional missile ordinance to be available after the wing mounted ones are spent.

2) Also why do I get get the feeling that the X-9 Ghost are a descendant thereof is going to make an appearance, Perhaps simliar to the Ghosts we saw in Macross ZERO?

If any "Ghosts" appear they'll be derivatives of the Mac Plus and Macross VF-X2 ones.

3) Are any Destroids?

Prolly not in the new series since the fighters are the mecha stars of the show these days. I suspect they still exist in the universe as mecha for Marine divisions, but nothing has been officially stated either way AFAIK.

[striderhiryu]

So here we have a male character who is older and a potential badass. Therefore, according to Macross cliche', he will die.

you forgot another current cliche, the tough looking guy always dies in a painful and gorish way (cough *guld*... cough*ivanov*)

[mechaninac]

Just a minor correction: The F-117 was designed with facets because computers of the era were not powerful enough to crunch the numbers necessary to resolve the stealth characteristics of blended surfaces (by the time the B-2 was created, computers had caught up to the demands of the necessary physics... hence the smooth shape). Stealth is meant to reduce the amount of reflected EM signal the aircraft returns to the RADAR unit, thereby reducing it's apparent size, not to give the plane a particular signature (i.e. a flock of birds); the idea is to reduce the range of the enemy's detectors to the point that when/if they see you it's already too late. In an atmosphere, a stealth aircraft may have the radar cross section of a hummingbird or an insect; in space it would appear to be a small rock or a grain of sand (meteoroid).

Edited December 12, 2007 by mechaninac

[chrono]

J head FTW. Now we know why Alto looks feminine, and Sheryl sounds like a batty.

A lame cover story for their attempt at a Bishie male character. Can't help but wonder if we're going to see some Homosexual overtones between him and the instructor.

[cyde01]

新 could also be translated (in part) as remade, reformed, refreshed, renewed, and re- (the prefex.)

It may seem strange to us, as English speakers tend not to use, in addition to it not being applied consistantly in Japanese. Therefore, I'm left with two interpretations:

1) It's a name, just like New York, or other cities, states, islands, and countries that include it.

2) It's being used specifically in this instant to denote that the UN Armed Forces (UN Spacy) has been remade anew; either directly because of the last cannon events that we saw (VF-X2) or something after that but before Macross Frontier.

sketchleyさん、あんた日本人じゃないだろ?

i keep getting ignored but i will say it again, in all japanese macross timelines, it says after the end of spacewar I when both the UN government (地球統合政府) and UN Spacy (地球統合軍) are destroyed, a new UN government (新地球統合政府) and new UN Spacy (新地球統合軍) are formed from the remnant that survived. 新地球統合軍, or 新統合軍, is just the name for UN Spacy after 2010. UN Spacy is commonly referred to in timelines after 2010 as both 統合軍 and 新統合軍. 統合軍 and 新統合軍 are used interchangeably. this is common knowledge among Japanese macross fans. thus, we can infer that UN Spacy has not been made new or reformed between VFX2 and Macross Frontier.

[Zinjo]

Just a minor correction: The F-117 was designed with facets because computers of the era were not powerful enough to crunch the numbers necessary to resolve the stealth characteristics of blended surfaces (by the time the B-2 was created, computers had caught up to the demands of the necessary physics... hence the smooth shape). Stealth is meant to reduce the amount of reflected EM signal the aircraft returns to the RADAR unit, thereby reducing it's apparent size, not to give the plane a particular signature (i.e. a flock of birds); the idea is to reduce the range of the enemy's detectors to the point that when/if they see you it's already too late. In an atmosphere, a stealth aircraft may have the radar cross section of a hummingbird or an insect; in space it would appear to be a small rock or a grain of sand (meteoroid).

The profile will give off the smallest signal, the shape is meant to fool radar with its silloutte hence the shape of the B1 and the B2 (to an extent)..

However, it has been proported that the VF aircraft have stealth characeristics that render conventional radar useless, thus the Cyclops sensor system was born to accomodate.

Essentially from a design point of view the VF-17 didn't have to resemble the F117 to be stealthy..

[Graham]

The VF-17 was designed with passive stealth, i.e. it achives stealth characteristics by shaping and materials.

The SV-51, YF-19 & YF-21 on the other hand use an active stealth system, details of which have not been published, but presumably uses some sort of electronic means. This does not seem to be dependant on the shape of the aircraft.

I've never heard the comment that the F-117 has the radar cross section of a "flock of birds" before. I've always heard that it is similar to a small bird in the best case scenario.

As for why the new VF-25 and VF-171 are shown carrying external stores, I presume this is beacuse if they use an active stealth system, it is now good enough that it also renders the stores stealthy as well. Or it could just be beacuse you can carry far more weapons externally, than you can on the internal pallets. I've always thought the YF-19 and VF-17 were rather light on missile armament.

Quite liking the new VF-25J head shape, but not the colour scheme of the head. I think it would have been better without the black on top, just all white with the red stripe.

Graham

[MacrossCN]

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071213, 14:12 JST

The news from

http://www.onsen.ag/blog/?p=487

Radio Macross

The Prep of Macross F, Ranka's Megumi Nakajima and Bobby's Kenta Miyake will show Radio Macross to us.

This program will review past Macross World.

air date:

NCB(文化放送), Jan. 4, 2008 start, every Friday, 25:30-26:00

MBS(毎日放送), Jan. 6, 2008 start, every Sunday, 25:30-26:00

文化放送　08年01月04日（金）～　毎週金曜日25：30～26：00

毎日放送　08年01月06日（日）～　毎週日曜日25：30～26：00　

Edited December 13, 2007 by kresphy

[azrael]

The news from

http://www.onsen.ag/blog/?p=487

Radio Macross

The Prep of Macross F, Ranka's Megumi Nakajima and Bobby's Kenta Miyake will show Radio Macross to us.

This program will review past Macross World.

Sounds boring....

[David Hingtgen]

The VF-17 resembles the F-117 because it's the best-known "stealth shape". It doesn't NEED to resemble the F-117 to have passive stealth due to shape, but that's certainly a VALID shape for it to be.

Basically: a passive stealth valk should resemble some real-world stealth aircraft. An active stealth valk can have any shape. (the YF-21 is both IMHO, having passive and active stealth--so I presume if the active stealth system shuts down or something, it's still somewhat stealthy)

Kawamori wanted people to instantly recognize that the VF-17 was stealthy (due to passive stealth) so he went with the most recognizable stealth shape there is.

[biggooftoybox]

The VF-17 resembles the F-117 because it's the best-known "stealth shape". It doesn't NEED to resemble the F-117 to have passive stealth due to shape, but that's certainly a VALID shape for it to be.

Basically: a passive stealth valk should resemble some real-world stealth aircraft. An active stealth valk can have any shape. (the YF-21 is both IMHO, having passive and active stealth--so I presume if the active stealth system shuts down or something, it's still somewhat stealthy)

Kawamori wanted people to instantly recognize that the VF-17 was stealthy (due to passive stealth) so he went with the most recognizable stealth shape there is.

Yup I agree with this comment here. In the real world the F117 was actually first designed and flown before the B2 bomber. Somewhere in the 80s was the first usage of the F117. I think when M7 came out, at the time the F117 did indeed have the most recognizable "Ahh that's a stealth fighter" shape. However that shape is not exactly the best for an airplane or aerodynamic. I once read that if the fly-by-wire was off and you lost electronics, the F117 basically flew like a ton of bricks.

[Graham]

Surprised that nobody has commented on the "J" head side view shown in the MBS banner (see pic below).

I really like the look of the head from the side.

Graham

[sketchley]

sketchleyさん、あんた日本人じゃないだろ?

あんた？どんだけ～。丁寧語まだ分からん？パソコンの翻訳を使った？

俺は日本人と違うよ。

By the way, by my post, it should be understood that your original post on the use of 新 in the term UNG and UN Spacy, hasn't been ignored.

Re: VF-171: I think I can guess where that "flock of birds" comes from. I read somewhere that when they put a scale model out in the field to do some testing, the radar operators quickly spotted the model, because a bird had landed on it. Once the bird left, the model virtually disappeared from radar. Later tests required some type of beacon to be transmitted from or near the scale model (and possibly also test models of the plane) so that radar operators knew where to look.

Logically, having something look like a flock of birds doesn't stand up, unless the object moves at the same speed and at the same altitude levels that a flock of birds moves at...

If I remember correctly, the plane that the YF-21 was based off of, the YF-23, was more stealthy (and, I think, faster) than the YF-22/F-22. So, it's not much of a stretch of my imagination to believe that the YF-21 and VF-22 are passively stealthy.

Edited December 13, 2007 by sketchley

[Guld]

Bandai Channel will show episodes 1 to 5 from Macross Tv in 2007/12/7 and 2008/1/31

http://www.b-ch.com/free_month/index.html

[Zinjo]

あんた？どんだけ～。丁寧語まだ分からん？パソコンの翻訳を使った？

俺は日本人と違うよ。

By the way, by my post, it should be understood that your original post on the use of 新 in the term UNG and UN Spacy, hasn't been ignored.

Re: VF-171: I think I can guess where that "flock of birds" comes from. I read somewhere that when they put a scale model out in the field to do some testing, the radar operators quickly spotted the model, because a bird had landed on it. Once the bird left, the model virtually disappeared from radar. Later tests required some type of beacon to be transmitted from or near the scale model (and possibly also test models of the plane) so that radar operators knew where to look.

Logically, having something look like a flock of birds doesn't stand up, unless the object moves at the same speed and at the same altitude levels that a flock of birds moves at...

If I remember correctly, the plane that the YF-21 was based off of, the YF-23, was more stealthy (and, I think, faster) than the YF-22/F-22. So, it's not much of a stretch of my imagination to believe that the YF-21 and VF-22 are passively stealthy.

Some Light Reading for those interested in the principles of stealth

Their physical properties have a low side profile and their top shape resembles that of a flock of birds or bird once their radar signature is reduced by approximately 85%. That is where the "flock of birds" comes from.

At the time of their roll out, the media repeated this aspect of the aircraft's passive stealth design...

Edited December 13, 2007 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Surprised that nobody has commented on the "J" head side view shown in the MBS banner (see pic below).

I really like the look of the head from the side.

Graham

It looks fatastic!

BTW, the designation "J"...is that official or just fan speculation?

The SV-51, YF-19 & YF-21 on the other hand use an active stealth system, details of which have not been published, but presumably uses some sort of electronic means. This does not seem to be dependant on the shape of the aircraft.

Just to note, the VF-0 has an active stealth system as well (designated as ASS/PS 110 active stealth system). The SV-51 uses one as well, but is designated the RP-51 active stealth system.

Actually, I believe the intention with Macross Zero was to establish that ALL Valkyires have active stealth systems. I think it's an implied advancement derived from OverTechnology. Granted, this is a debatable point, but it makes little sense the VF-0 and SV-51 would have active stealth systems while the VF-1 would not. And yes, I've already thought of all the reasons why the VF-1 might not have an active stealth system (cost, difficulty, etc), but when all is said and done, the pervasive use of active stealth in Macross effectively explains why nearly every fight is short range.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Mr March

[azrael]

It looks fatastic!

BTW, the designation "J"...is that official or just fan speculation?

Fan speculation. They haven't put out the actual designations yet. I'd prefer the use of "Hikaru-colors" or "Focker-colors". The VF-17D only had 2 head lasers. The VF-0S only had 2 head lasers. For all we know, the "Hikaru-colored" VF-25 could be a VF-25A.

[l_e_m]

And yes, I've already thought of all the reasons why the VF-1 might not have an active stealth system (cost, difficulty, etc), but when all is said and done, the pervasive use of active stealth in Macross effectively explains why nearly every fight is short range.

I believe that every fight ends up at short range because Valkyries have the ability to shoot attacking missiles down.

[Mr March]

I believe that every fight ends up at short range because Valkyries have the ability to shoot attacking missiles down.

There's plenty of long range weapons in Macross besides missiles. Even the gun pod is shown firing beyond visual range. So that doesn't make sense to me.

[Ironside]

If I remember correctly, the plane that the YF-21 was based off of, the YF-23, was more stealthy (and, I think, faster) than the YF-22/F-22. So, it's not much of a stretch of my imagination to believe that the YF-21 and VF-22 are passively stealthy.

Hi. First post.

The YF-23 was the superior airframe in the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition (faster, stealthier). The exact reasons the YF-22 was chosen aren't clear, but thought tend to run to costs and the fact that YF-23 demonstrator did not have functional internal weapons systems while the YF-22 did. I don't know if the YF-23 was the more agile of the two (an important consideration given the requirement for super-maneuverability).

The YF-21/VF-22 IS a passive stealth platform. The Macross Compendium makes it clear that the -21 design team made a stealth/agility trade-off, and given the fact that VF-0 and Sv-51 look nothing like the -21, odds are that trade of was related to stealth shaping/materials and not requirements of the active stealth system. That said, the VF-0 is clearly designed with stealth in mind (the aircraft resembles an F-22-ised F-14/VF-1, showing intentional stealthing in the design, as do the VF-5000, VF-11, VF-19 and (obviously) the VF-17. The degree of stealth shaping varies with the different airframes. The speculation that all Valkyries have active stealth seems to me to follow along with speculation that all of them have some sort of SWAG-type Energy converting armor system.

I think Isamu's remark that the YF-22's stealth system was "impressive" had to do with the fact that he was really close to it when it went active and the -22 vanished from his Thunderbolt's radar. Note that the image on his screen was fuzzy to begin with, suggesting that the passive stealth on the -22 was already confusing the Thunderbolt's sensors.

I think it's telling that the YF-19 and YF-21 had to use "dirty tricks" to get through Earth's planetary Defense Grid. It suggests that sensor systems can use clues like exhaust heat, atmospheric disturbances and visual imagery to get a general idea of where a Macross type stealth platform is. The stealth systems provide enough cover for a skilled pilot to sneak past unwary foes and to force alert enemies to "close the range" before engaging (as has already been suggested).

[edit: for clarity]

Edited December 13, 2007 by Ironside

[l_e_m]

There's plenty of long range weapons in Macross besides missiles. Even the gun pod is shown firing beyond visual range. So that doesn't make sense to me.

What long range weapons do Variable Fighters typically carry that are not missiles?

I don't understand why mentioning that "the gun pod is shown firing beyond visual range" should mean anything in the context of your original statement.

[Mr March]

Welcome to MacrossWorld Ironside.

Just something to note: energy converting armor being a staple of All Valkyries is not fan speculation; that is official according to the translations of the official VF-0 statistics. Also, as others have recently revealed to me, Kawamori himself spoke of energy converting armor many years before Macross Zero (I believe his first words on the subject were dated at some time in the early 1990s).