The state of anime

[eugimon]

that makes a lot more sense, thanks.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Another issue to put into the pot is that media sales are not really a "point of retail" sort of profit structure for most distributors. Your average distributor makes their money off of the retail establishment, not directly from you the consumer. Basically the distributor sells in bulk lots to retail agencies who in turn sell to you. A distributor stands to possibly "clear" their overhead and even profit right out of the gate in some cases if initial order numbers are high enough.

The pattern these things usually follow is that a distributor has a DVD they wish to sell. They offer this DVD to retailers at a case lot price or a unit price, DVD's generally follow unit pricing by my understanding. For discussion let's use the previous model, that 100 DVDs are to be made at a creation cost of 1K. The distributor wishes to turn his profit ASAP on limited return and he offers his DVDs to the retailers at a per unit price of $40. Let's say in a perfect world the distributor sells all 100 units to four different retail houses for his wholesale asking price of $40 per unit. The distributor gets a $4K payday (above his projections) and each retailer gets 25 units to place on their shelves. These retailers then mark up the price another $5 to make the unit price to the consumer $45.

Time passes and after a year it comes to be that each retailer only sells 15 out of their original 25 units for a grand total of 60 units sold. What happens next is one of two things. First, and quite common if the original distribution sale contracted as such, are the retailers "charge back" their unsold stock to the distributor. This means the remaining 40 units are "returned" to the distributor for a refund. Usually this refund is pro-rated and let's say the pro-rated chargeback amount for each unit is $30. That means then that out of it's $4K payday the distributor has to give back $1,200 and reclaim it's 40 unsold units. The distributor will then dispose of these reclaimed units at lower wholesale prices to "cheapie cheap" stores or they will simply dump them in a landfill somewhere if they are so inclined (ET for the Atari 2600 anyone?). The other options are to price adjust the current shelved units at retail. Some distributors offer a pro-rata "stocking chargeback", which means they will refund a percentage of the retailer's original purchase price but the retailer retains the items on their shelves. Usually if a form chargeback is not possible then sitting stock is "eaten" by retail and they simply mark down their sitting stock until it sells. In other words the retailer takes it on the chin and does whatever they can to recoup some money.

Generally the way this system works is not on a "single sale" aspect. It's assumed that the first "lot" will sell out and further lots will be ordered. The more lots moved, the greater the profit for both entities. Generally a "failed lot" will be eaten by the retailer and a successful series of lots will decrease in wholesale cost over time. This system is also usually the one chosen way to do business by "market bully" companies like Walmart because it enables them to leverage very low stock costs for themselves by requiring certain numbers of stock at a certain price. A situation like this example I'm using where the distributor makes oodles of cash on a single lot deal is not really realistic using this model. Most of the time places like Walmart and Best Buy will demand the lowest wholesale and the highest chargeback amount for stale merch, which usually places the distributor in quite a hot seat. It then requires multiple lots to be sold over a large frame of time for the distributor to show a profit.

There is another system used for high dollar items called the "stocking percentage" system in which the retailers pay a percentage of the item's cost, called a carrying charge, to have it "on the shelf". When the item sells the retailer gives an agreed upon amount to the distributor and keeps the remainder for himself as profit... but this method is usually only used for large dollar capital sales items like cars, construction equipment and the like, usually only in contractual sales agreements between dealers and suppliers and it doesn't really apply to consumer goods like DVDs.

[sketchley]

again, why the difference then? Are you saying that bubba hotep or python versus anaconda are somehow cheaper to master and stamp? That those discs cost less to ship? Or that they don't cost the store as much to shelve?

I'd like to see some numbers to back up your assertions.

I'm not denying that economies of scale exist, I'm just doubting the claim that they would justify a near 100% mark up in price compared to other comparable shows.

They are not assertations. They are facts.

I, and I'm pretty sure the majority of MW members don't have time to do research for you. Therefore, I'll start you on the path:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

http://www.high-techproductions.com/dvd_duplication.htm

(Using the quoted price from the article $70,000, for the license, going on a print run of 5,000 from the 2nd link, we arrive at a unit price of $15.85. A print run of 100,002, you get a unit price of $2.05. Mind you, that's just for an untranslated show copied exactly as is onto a disc, with no case nor label. This is, of course, presuming that the theory of limited return is not applied, and costs are applied equally; which most likely is not the case.)

Now, let's talk about billing for my time that you just wasted. ￥2,500 sounds fair.

Also, by comparible shows, are you refering to other anime, or something entirely different, such as the items quoted?

Edited November 29, 2007 by sketchley

[Radd]

But he specifically stated that he wasn't questioning you that the effects economies of scale exist, but questioning whether the costs anime distributers face really are justifiable cause the 100% markup anime DVDs sell for. I can think of several responses to that, posting a link to a wikipedia page about economies of scale isn't one of those responses.

I probably would have conceded that the limited print run probably didn't affect the cost as much as the costs the distributer faces with the translating and dubbing, and then went on to explain that said translation and dubbing are the likely cause of the markup anime faces, a cost domestic releases, not matter how niche, do not have to deal with.

That's not to say the extra cost of a limited print run doesn't exist, no one has questioned that, just that it's probably not so much a burden that it pushes the cost of the individual DVDs beyond what you would see for a similarly limited run of domestic DVDs. Unless I'm mistaken, that's the assertion he was speaking of.

Or I may have tried to do a bit of research on just how what sort of numbers one can generally expect a print run of a niche domestic release, like Bubba Hotep, to be produced in, to see if it's truly comparable to the numbers an anime DVD is generally produced in. More than likely that would have been too much work, so I would have probably just brought that up to prod someone else into doing the actual work.

[Duymon]

Ah...Anime, it's not commercially available for way too long. We have a saying, Pound the metal while it's still hot. The American Anime industry seems to always start long after it's cold and rusted. Prolly the only things companies might make money on would be Jointly released OVA's so that there's never a reason to download fansubs since the product is already commercially available locally.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well, now that the "next generation" of media is here (Blu Ray) which shares a region code between the USA and Japan if the chips fall right we may actually see dual country anime releases become more common. I believe a few anime releases on Blu Ray like Tekkonkinkreet have been released simultaneously in the US and Japan. And seeing as the format shares regions Japanese can openly import US movies and vice versa.

[Zinjo]

I have always believed the price of anime had more to do with the theory of limited return rather than actual overhead.

This is precisely the method employed by Bandai Visual in Japan with the "Limited Edition" DVD Macross sets. All the Macross Plus LE sets are sold out, yet they were priced on the higher end of the scale. The LE of DYRL is also about 4000 Yen higher than the regular edition and will likely sell out too. Ironically the more "value added" content they present, the higher a price they can command and the greater the likelyhood they will sell out their production run.

It is entirely possible that the smaller anime distributors are also using that sales model, thus their products are priced much higher compared other distributors. Bandai Visual prolly is using this model for their releases. It is working against them in the market, but they are firmly commited to the idea for the moment.

[JsARCLIGHT]

That sounds more like the gimmick of "limited edition" rather than the theory of limited return. The theory of limited return is not about "added value for added price", it's all about a company knowing they will never sell out and they price their product high so the ones that do sell cover their margins. There is nothing special about the product outside of the fact that the maker feels it does not have the market clout to be a "winner" and they hedge their bets. The limited return principal flies in the face of basic supply and demand logic and few companies actually try to employ it, because it can turn on you in a heartbeat. It's not accepted "smart" business sense to distribute an item you have little to no confidence in at a higher price. Modern business is all about volume rather than set piece sales, which means a practice like limited return is only used by "desperate" men in strange circumstances... which IMHO describes the US anime industry well. They are selling a virtually unmarketable product which has low initial demand, low "face" and low prospects. It's like trying to sell a left handed hot pink handgun that only takes golden bullets... they know they'll sell one or two of them, but that's about it. So they hedge their bets, only make a small number of them, spend nothing on marketing them, rely on word of mouth to build "face" and price them so high that even if they only sell one they break even on cost.

[Zinjo]

That sounds more like the gimmick of "limited edition" rather than the theory of limited return. The theory of limited return is not about "added value for added price", it's all about a company knowing they will never sell out and they price their product high so the ones that do sell cover their margins. There is nothing special about the product outside of the fact that the maker feels it does not have the market clout to be a "winner" and they hedge their bets. The limited return principal flies in the face of basic supply and demand logic and few companies actually try to employ it, because it can turn on you in a heartbeat. It's not accepted "smart" business sense to distribute an item you have little to no confidence in at a higher price. Modern business is all about volume rather than set piece sales, which means a practice like limited return is only used by "desperate" men in strange circumstances... which IMHO describes the US anime industry well. They are selling a virtually unmarketable product which has low initial demand, low "face" and low prospects. It's like trying to sell a left handed hot pink handgun that only takes golden bullets... they know they'll sell one or two of them, but that's about it. So they hedge their bets, only make a small number of them, spend nothing on marketing them, rely on word of mouth to build "face" and price them so high that even if they only sell one they break even on cost.

The US anime industry also doesn't have what the japanese studios have in terms of sponsors to carry some of the cost burden. Even HG had sponsors for RT which allowed them to bring the show to Syndicated TV.

There are ways and means by which the US anime industry can exploit the internet, but trying to use traditional methods to achieve this will not be successful. I.e. pay per download services...

[Max Jenius]

No different than recording on a VHS tape. It's not stealing if people in Japan can watch it for free too. Personally, I don't care much about the anime industry anymore as it's been fully raped and lame-ified.

[bandit29]

No different than recording on a VHS tape. It's not stealing if people in Japan can watch it for free too. Personally, I don't care much about the anime industry anymore as it's been fully raped and lame-ified.

I guess you never heard the term "illegal distribution"?

[chrono]

I think the worst I've seen was that inserting a game console disk into a PC is a violation of the law because the copyright holder never SAID you could stick it in something other than a game console.

They've dealt with that little loophole in the DMCA (nasty little piece of work that is).

No different than recording on a VHS tape. It's not stealing if people in Japan can watch it for free too.

That would ONLY apply if you got it over the airwaves, cable channel, satellite TV, and officially licensed distributors on the Internet. If it's not then it's definitely stealing regardless of how you frame your reasons.

[protostar8]

Just something I want to add...I think the anime industry is experiencing the same problems other media industries are experiencing. The industry is seeing pissed off people that are finally fed up with exorbitantly priced media. I can't find myself willing to shell out $10 for a movie ticket when I can watch it on DVD (from Blockbuster) for half that price and have it for a week or two and let my other family members see it. The same applies to anime in a way, I can't see paying for a crappy American version years after the Japanese release. I can't really rent anime from anywhere and I don't think I would b/c by the time the American releases begin, I've seen the entire series in Japan. Merchandise is another story, I'll buy that stuff forever if I like what comes out and if I can get it cheaper in the US (never happens but if it did) I'd be all for it, even if I had to wait an extra month or two.

Again, I support the industry, just not through the purchase of cheaply produced, overpriced, poorly dubbed, months old (compared to Japanese release) DVD's. I buy merchandise and that supports their broke behinds too!!! And there is little chance I would be buying that merchandise without having seen the subbed Japanese releases.

Edited December 1, 2007 by protostar8

[Oihan]

Lastly:

If I'm not mistaken, recording it for personal use is acceptable (personal use means you, and only the members of your household get to view it later). However, presenting it to people not in your household is punishable.

Don't you mean it's punishable ONLY if they're making profit off it? Take "this telecast is copyrighted by the NFL for the private use of our audience..." for example. It is currently legal to use a recording device to record a television show for private viewing. So you and I can both record a NFL game for our own private use.... I see fansubs in the same light...only it's someone else who recorded the show off the tube (rather than my own self)...and in the end I use that recording for my own private use...like I would any other recorded show that I've recorded. I'm not making any money off it (just like fansubbers aren't), and I'm not trying to claim it as my own; I'm just simply watching something that was recorded off the tube...for my own private use. Tis how I see it all anyway.

[sketchley]

See JsArchlight's post #54 in this thread for further clarification.

[Oihan]

See JsArchlight's post #54 in this thread for further clarification.

I hadn't read that far when I had posted, but it confirms everything I said....

[JsARCLIGHT]

The important thing to keep in mind about consumer rights pertaining to television shows recorded in your home is that the US legal system views most of the law as "doorstep" law. Meaning they will generally not bother you with whatever you do with their media that you recorded at home on your VCR/DVR/DVD burner etc. as long as that media does not "cross your doorstep". That "doorstep" interpretation has to do with dissemination and distribution as it relates to the '76 Copyright Act, and this is the part of the law that the most people are confused with.

You ARE legally allowed to record programs off of TV, Cable or satellite for view in your own home. You ARE legally allowed to show your recorded copy to as many people as you wish, as long as you do not charge them to view it and it is done (and this is the "doorstep clause") in the privacy of your own home. The "Privacy of your own home" can be legally extended to your friend's house, your parent's house and other "private" locations to which you can bring the recorded media. The caveat is that you CANNOT legally distribute or disseminate that media by any means. That means if you take that program you recorded off of TV and put it on the internet, make copies of the tapes (even just "for friends") or duplicate it in any way and give it to people other than yourself (for as stupid as it sounds the law only allows people to make copies for "their own personal use") you have now broken the law as the material you recorded has now "crossed your doorstep" and left your "control".

I'm not sure how Japan's copyright law functions (I am only familiar with the US laws), but I do know that the two countries have had agreements since 1906 and that Japan was one of the countries involved in the UCC Geneva agreement in the '50s as well as being party to every following international copyright agreement since including the most recent WTO accords. International copyright agreements ensure that member nations all uphold and agree to enforce each other's copyright laws as they pertain to their individual nation's programming. Which means a television show recorded off of Japanese TV is subject not only to Japanese copyright law but by extension of UCC Geneva and all the international accords that came after it those programs are also protected under US Copyright law.

Which all that mumbo jumbo means a TV show copied off of Japanese TV and "redistributed" (even for "free") in the US is bound by Japanese copyright law. If the Japanese say (like we do) that distribution and dissemination of privately recorded materials is illegal then we in the US uphold their law.

Is anyone here familiar with Japanese copyright law, specifically how it applies to "fair use" of home recorded media from broadcast and what caveats are on the distribution and dissemination of that copied material? If I had to -guess- (and guessing with the law is BAD) I'd guess that their law is just like ours, perhaps with only a handful of differences... but without knowing the actual law and how it relates to the consumer it's a very bad area to be in when engaging in possibly illegal activities.

And as I've said before in this thread that is how most people "get in trouble" with copyright law... they do not property understand it or even know it at all and they -guess- as to what they think it means or how it applies to what they are doing. And that is how the Government gets them. They wander right into the trap thinking they are in the "right" only to discover after it's too late that they are in big trouble.

[Oihan]

Well, I'll say this much: if it weren't for the fansubbers I wouldn't have bought nearly all of the anime DVDs that I have to this day. Moreover, I sh*t on the whole "crossed your doorstep" and left your "control" copyright bullshit. I could understand if it was a DVD that was fansubbed, but if this was something that was broadcast live on Japanese TV...those who are going to uphold the "crossed your doorstep" and left your "control" 'law' can suck it. I don't see how they could be losing any profit from me watching something that isn't in the States or isn't even on DVD yet.

Thanks for clarifying things in regards to the law.

[chrono]

I could understand if it was a DVD that was fansubbed, but if this was something that was broadcast live on Japanese TV...those who are going to uphold the "crossed your doorstep" and left your "control" 'law' can suck it. I don't see how they could be losing any profit from me watching something that isn't in the States or isn't even on DVD yet.

The torrents and dl's are full of rips and fansubbed rips, and sometimes groups intentionally re-sub with the dvd release.

The company's lose profit because you are not watching their commercials/sponsors which fund the anime's production (a well known concept that crosses national lines and has been around for over 50 years). Also all of the copyright issues aside you are also receiving stolen goods knowingly by downloading any non-official download. And stealing data is just as the same as stealing rip's or dvd's themselves. Your just using that as an argument, even though it's the typical entitlement "it was on the Internet, so it's free" line of BS.

Place yourself in their position where you see your product being copied freely in another country and you know that you only made it for the money to begin with and had huge amounts of sponsoring to bring it to market locally (lose potential of profits due to smaller audience size). Or how about only giving away that product in your country for a limited time before selling it, yet having that copied 'free' product show up in another country that you only sell the product in!!

[Oihan]

The torrents and dl's are full of rips and fansubbed rips, and sometimes groups intentionally re-sub with the dvd release.

The company's lose profit because you are not watching their commercials/sponsors which fund the anime's production (a well known concept that crosses national lines and has been around for over 50 years). Also all of the copyright issues aside you are also receiving stolen goods knowingly by downloading any non-official download. And stealing data is just as the same as stealing rip's or dvd's themselves. Your just using that as an argument, even though it's the typical entitlement "it was on the Internet, so it's free" line of BS.

Place yourself in their position where you see your product being copied freely in another country and you know that you only made it for the money to begin with and had huge amounts of sponsoring to bring it to market locally (lose potential of profits due to smaller audience size). Or how about only giving away that product in your country for a limited time before selling it, yet having that copied 'free' product show up in another country that you only sell the product in!!

Well, I would have never bought a lot of the anime that I have if it weren't for the fansubs. A lot of what I've bought hasn't been aired in the U.S. (at least not in my area...with what I have available) like it has in Japan. So these companies are gaining a profit off a demographic that they aren't even broadcasting to. Also, I don't know about you, but I have yet to see a fansub that wasn't pixelated or compressed somehow...and I'm one that likes to have the best picture quality possible. So there's another incentive for me to buy and or import.

[sketchley]

A lot of what I've bought hasn't been aired in the U.S. (at least not in my area...with what I have available) like it has in Japan. So these companies are gaining a profit off a demographic that they aren't even broadcasting to.

So, you're saying that because of your personally chosen limited access to media, both domestic and imported, justifies stealing it? That's like saying, "I can't afford HBO, but I'm entitled to watch it for free."

Japan and the USA are not the same market, BTW, and you are not entitled to any media*. You're not only stealing from the Japanese producers, but also fellow countrymen who are spending a decent sized chunk of change to import it and translate it for their fellow countrymen. Which I think is the main point of the article - fansubbers and people who download from them are hurting North Americans and the future of anime in North America as a viable medium of entertainment.

* Caveat: except that which you personally produce or purchase.

Edited December 4, 2007 by sketchley

[Mog]

So, you're saying that because of your personally chosen limited access to media, both domestic and imported, justifies stealing it? That's like saying, "I can't afford HBO, but I'm entitled to watch it for free."

Japan and the USA are not the same market, BTW, and you are not entitled to any media*. You're not only stealing from the Japanese producers, but also fellow countrymen who are spending a decent sized chunk of change to import it and translate it for their fellow countrymen. Which I think is the main point of the article - fansubbers and people who download from them are hurting North Americans and the future of anime in North America as a viable medium of entertainment.

* Caveat: except that which you personally produce or purchase.

Not to take anything away from your argument, but would you at least concede that fansubs potentially expose more people to these anime shows?

The fansubs really developed and nutured my appreciation and exposure to Black Lagoon. Sure, there was the good word of mouth. But actually seeing and experiencing the series for myself was the best selling point. I'm usually very picky when it comes to my DVD purchases. And granted, I'm waiting until a box set of the ENTIRE Black Lagoon series is released in the US.

But it's because of that initial exposure from the internet fansubs that I even have the desire to purchase the Black Lagoon DVD's. Without those same fansubs, would my strong desire to purchase the series' DVD's even have existed in the first place? I doubt it.

[sketchley]

I'll concede that non-translated copies of an original broadcast do potentially expose more people. However, it's a double edged knife, as the unpaid for distribution cuts into the growth and development of the support industries that advertise and advise consumers of the latest anime, music, and anime related knicknack.

Which brings up the question - how many "consumers" of fan subs purchased an English language publication dedicated to anime and/or manga in the past few months or years?

Though, it should never be conceded on things like OVAs and movies, which are rarely, if ever, broadcast years after their original release. This, if I remember correctly, is also the category of anime most often translated, subbed/dubbed and sold in English.

[Oihan]

So, you're saying that because of your personally chosen limited access to media, both domestic and imported, justifies stealing it? That's like saying, "I can't afford HBO, but I'm entitled to watch it for free."

How's it stealing if I'm buying imported anime (all in thanks to fansubs)?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well, viewing the activities through the eyes of the law, laws are still being broken... all of them not necessarily by you.

Just a simple listing of legal infractions are the original broadcast material recorded and redistributed (rebroadcast) over the internet without permission of the creator by the fansubber, illegal distribution of copyrighted material (via downloaded materials) by the fansubber and from those come the civil suits for damages. Compensation from damages in court may include items such as lost profits from the infringing activity, or statutory damages ranging from $250 to $150,000 for each infringing copy or higher if the court feels that the infringement was committed "willfully."

The lion's share of copyright law, and it's infringement, is done by the fansubber in this case, or the "disseminating party". The person who illegally copies and distributes the copyrighted media is the primary one in the hot seat. HOWEVER the second you as an individual share that illicit file you too are liable for the same infractions as the fansubber and in some cases, and under some courts, you can also be held liable for simply being in possession of the illegal material.

In the eyes of the law the final purchase of a legitimate release does not negate the participation in illegal activity beforehand. It's comparable to stealing a crude copy of a book, reading that copy of the book, then going out and buying the real book afterwords. The final purchase of the real book does not forgive the initial theft of the book's materials... even if the stolen copy was sub par. And that is the thrust of copyright law... the "thing" you are watching/listening to/reading is not just a "thing" (as in an item you can hold in your hands) but it is also the idea, the intangible substance of what it is. And when it comes to artistic media, which transcends a physical form in many cases, the "idea" is the thing... and obtaining the idea through unsanctioned or illicit means is still theft. Even if you have no legitimate access to the media it is still seen as theft. The legal argument that "you had no other road to obtain the media so you downloaded... but you purchased it later" doesn't hold up in court sadly. Hence the confusion and quagmire of media copyright law.

[Oihan]

Well, viewing the activities through the eyes of the law, laws are still being broken... all of them not necessarily by you.

Just a simple listing of legal infractions are the original broadcast material recorded and redistributed (rebroadcast) over the internet without permission of the creator by the fansubber, illegal distribution of copyrighted material (via downloaded materials) by the fansubber and from those come the civil suits for damages. Compensation from damages in court may include items such as lost profits from the infringing activity, or statutory damages ranging from $250 to $150,000 for each infringing copy or higher if the court feels that the infringement was committed "willfully."

The lion's share of copyright law, and it's infringement, is done by the fansubber in this case, or the "disseminating party". The person who illegally copies and distributes the copyrighted media is the primary one in the hot seat. HOWEVER the second you as an individual share that illicit file you too are liable for the same infractions as the fansubber and in some cases, and under some courts, you can also be held liable for simply being in possession of the illegal material.

In the eyes of the law the final purchase of a legitimate release does not negate the participation in illegal activity beforehand. It's comparable to stealing a crude copy of a book, reading that copy of the book, then going out and buying the real book afterwords. The final purchase of the real book does not forgive the initial theft of the book's materials... even if the stolen copy was sub par. And that is the thrust of copyright law... the "thing" you are watching/listening to/reading is not just a "thing" (as in an item you can hold in your hands) but it is also the idea, the intangible substance of what it is. And when it comes to artistic media, which transcends a physical form in many cases, the "idea" is the thing... and obtaining the idea through unsanctioned or illicit means is still theft. Even if you have no legitimate access to the media it is still seen as theft. The legal argument that "you had no other road to obtain the media so you downloaded... but you purchased it later" doesn't hold up in court sadly. Hence the confusion and quagmire of media copyright law.

Well, I guess I'm a pirate then and will always be with the way things are now. Call me a consequentialist, but at least I support what I download (through imports and purchases) and to me the ends justify the means.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Oihan

[JsARCLIGHT]

Which is why I personally believe our current "system" favors the corporations, restricts the artists and makes criminals out of everyday people who just want to see/hear their materials. A new system is needed before the "pirate life" corrupts an entire generation into thinking that is the only way to get their entertainment. It's a noble approach to wish to patronize the creators of the materials you enjoy, but if you believe the numbers you are in the dwindling minority.

Edit: I'm not trying to say I favor the "big corporations" or the "little kid in his basement downloading songs". I personally sit in the middle. I neither want the greedy corporations to "win" nor do I believe the media downloaders are innocent. All I really want is for people to be aware of the laws and know when they are "crossing that line". I cannot say that I am "innocent" of downloading things as I am not... I just try to limit my use of it and shield myself, and those I care about, as much as possible from the very long, sometimes indiscriminate arm of the law.

[Warmaker]

The pirate life is the only way to go a bunch of times. To hell with waiting 3-5 years for a proper release on this side of the pond. I did enough of that BS in the 90s. To hell with waiting for a show that stands a good chance of not even coming over at all.

Fansubs fill the void since the industry will not or moves too slowly to make it happen.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Warmaker

[JsARCLIGHT]

But you have to admit that the whole situation is a catch22. The "system" moves slowly due to not just the time it takes to process the proper licenses and agreements and translate and print up the materials but the financial "risk" of releasing anime. If you believe the reports then anime sales are dropping and people put the blame on downloads. If lower sales are inevitable then the chance of more anime being imported drops as well because businesses will not want to risk the loss.

People are mad because it takes so long (or not at all) for anime to come to the US but the anime that does come and offered for sale (according to the sellers) is being undermined by the downloads which means those companies will most likely not bring in more anime leading to people complaining the anime they want to see is not coming to them fast enough so they download more anime. It's a destructive cycle if left to continue...

From a business sense if I was a domestic distributor who was looking to import anime the first thing I'd do is surf all the torrent sites and see how "available" the show I wanted to import was. If I saw a ton of it easily available and all over the place I'd choose not to import that title out of fear no one would buy my legitimate release. After all, as the importer it costs me a lot of money to legitimately import and release a show... it costs the pirate fansubbers nothing but their time. All the while they work outside of the legal license system, which means they do not suffer the time setbacks that I as a legal importer do. I have to wait until the series is finished and then jump through all the hurdles of licensing it and talking with the makers, writing checks, ramping up my own people to translate and design packaging etc. etc. etc... while the fansubbers can rip, translate and upload the same material the week it hits the Japanese airwaves.

It seems to me the thing people want to see is the one thing that is not entirely possible, which is a simultaneous US/Japanese release. It takes a big company with deep pockets and ambition to pull that off. They DO do it every once in a blue moon but it's just not financially or logistically possible for everything to do that. It would be like someone making a TV show for a niche cable channel like A&E or the History Channel knowing they will have to make TWO edits of their show during production, one for the US market and one for the Japanese market. At best it adds to their production time at worst it doubles their production budget... and most TV shows, Japanese or American, are bootstrapping as it is.

[Mr March]

I think a lot of the problem for studios and even the consumers is to dwell upon what isn't possible instead of trying to figure out what is. I mean, if one business model is failing, where is the next one? To paraphrase one of my favorite films; "The new law of evolution in media distribution seems to be, survival of the unfittest." Yes, it's a shame no one saw this coming when the internet first came into being (except for the guys who did and are now rich because of it) and it's tough that it's causing hardship for existing businesses. But really, all I see is ever more frivolous lawsuits burdening the courts in an attempt to enforce legality upon a media distribution world that is no longer the same landscape as it once was. And this issue is reaching some 10 years old now. If traditional methods of media distribution aren't working, new ones should replace them. Like a wise politician once said, business (unlike government) has a remarkable ability to change very quickly to new industry rules, so long as those new rules stay the same afterward.

For example, co-productions and partnerships for distribution have been the norm in film and television for ages. Niche market or no, anime has certainly reached a point where it's worthwhile to sell outside Japan. The international anime distribution industry was built on that premise and has thrived for over 15 years, despite the recent trouble. Foreign companies need to seek deals with domestic Japanese anime studios to get on board with new anime productions as end-deal co-financiers. These international distributors are like silent partners, helping to offset costs and thus increase production values of an anime show but have no influence upon the production itself. What they get is instant access to the post-production, preparing the anime for international distribution with subtitling, advertising, the whole thing. Then when the show is released in Japan, the deal can stipulate simultaneous international broadcast, home video release or even release delays of only a few months. The whole process is shortened and simplified, resulting in fewer costs and faster turnover. Investment by foreign distributors also provides financial incentive for the Japanese anime production companies, the one thing they want most. It could even create growing interest from Japanese production companies as they seek out foreign co-financing for more specialized, niche anime (read: Cowboy Bebop) which are not as popular in Japan but are very lucrative for international anime distributors.

I think the problem is, someone has to take the risk somewhere. It's a new business model in a new media distribution landscape and it may either be too soon or it could be long overdue. Either way, it's a risk. But really, isn't that what business is all about? You see an opportunity, you have the understanding and will to do it, you start your business and the rest takes over. The really messed up part of all this is, I'm not a risk taker. I usually don't think like this and I'm not really a business minded kind of guy. If the situation is this apparent to a layman like me, there's something obviously wrong and this opportunity should have been seized by now. Or maybe that's why it hasn't been seized, because I am a layman who's seeing it all wrong

[bsu legato]

Long story short, if domestic companies want me to buy their products (and I do buy some anime) then they're going to have to do a better job of making it accessible. I don't watch a lot of anime these days, and like even less of it, so there is just no way that I am going to buy something on the off chance that I like it. Anime is nonexistant on Canadian TV these days, outside of the generic Poke-Card Captor-Yu Gi-whatever crap that infests the youth TV channels, so that might be a place for them to start. If other companies follow Funi's lead on the iTunes front, that'll help. Maybe stream an episode or two online for samplers. But there is just no way I'm spending another nickel on anime sight unseen. Waiting up to 2 years to see the R1 release of a show is bad enough, but when that show turns out to be a gigantic steaming turd you've just wasted $30 on a coaster. That was how I wound up with a copy of "Ninja Resurrection." (VHS actually, but the analogy stands)

Never mind that half the stuff I download are fansubs of old, oooold anime that nobody seems to be inclined to licence. Am I supposed to feel guilty about watching Harlock SSX or Hokuto no Ken 2? The chances of them seeing an R1 release are between slim and none.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Which keeps bringing the topic back to innovation... more notably it's strange absence.

I myself would love to see solid numbers on actual REAL hard core anime piracy. Meaning the stuff that is copies of what is available rather than some taped off of television fansubbed entitiy. If I had to bet, I'd bet that the actual amount of true hardcore stolen stuff is quite low compared to the fansubs. I'd also like to see what kind of expectations and return on investment the anime importers think should be happening.

I mean, IMHO I would place a large share of the "failure" of the current world of imported anime on the general "suckiness" of the imported product rather than piracy. The exact same line of reasoning that rises when people look for answers when Hollywood is "off" or when the music industry is downturning. Is this a TRUE age of burgeoning internet crime or is that being blown out of proportion because folks refuse to admit it's instead an age of crap shows and unliked movies? Are people "voting their displeasure" by "stealing" the media rather than paying for it?

[Mr March]

I agree, like the recent announcement Warner Bros. would not feature women in the lead role for their future films. Could it be the films are lousy and not the women? Especially given the fact we're talking about dead-gorgeous females, I can assure you it's not the women

I'd bet good money I know EXACTLY what the media companies are crying about losing with respect to piracy. They lament the apathy dollars; aka money spent on crap not because people want to, but because they need to. Combine the anime/film junkies who live garbage entertainment with the vast majority of consumers who watch anime/film/tv when the "mood strikes them" and you have a large market built around stopgap entertainment. Now with the advent of the internet, people don't actually have to pay for their mediocre entertainment anymore and suddenly many consumers are only paying real dollars when worthwhile entertainment is released. I've heard it hundreds of times:

So, how was the movie?

Crap. It's definitely a download.

Sound familiar? It should. Not so long ago the conversation went something like this:

So, how was the movie?

Crap. It's definitely a rental.

I'd wager discriminating purchasing habits are actually what is hurting things the most. How ironic indeed that good taste is to blame

[sketchley]

I totally disagree with your last post Mr.March. If they were your true friend, they would tell you not to waste your time on a movie.

Nevertheless, the switch from rental to download is a failure on the part of the consumer. The consumer has obligations to pay the fee (ticket, rental, watch the CM, etc.) when experiencing entertainment. The consumer also has the choice of either paying, or simply not experiencing the bad entertainment.

Which brings us back to anime - being a connoisseur of anime means being picky and choosy in what you view moreso than what you buy (as invariably you will buy less than you view). Therefore, the paradigm shift is as much on the consumer as it is on the producer and distributer. Anime downloaders have to learn patience (instant is never part of the vocabulary of imported entertainment from a foreign language) and to have more faith in reviewers (it's a bad movie, why waste time on it?)

Foreign companies need to seek deals with domestic Japanese anime studios to get on board with new anime productions as end-deal co-financiers. These international distributors are like silent partners, helping to offset costs and thus increase production values of an anime show but have no influence upon the production itself.

I agree. But it is extremely rare for a company to not demand changes to maximize the sales potential of the product in their native territory. Which may be why it isn't happening. The artisans of anime don't want to compromise their art for foreign ideals.

Edited December 5, 2007 by sketchley

[Roy Focker]

I can't see companies embracing anime online. Face it. Most of it is pure crap. An offical free or budget preview episode would do what good for them? People watch it and decide it is too crappy to buy or even download from friend of a friend. Company loses money,