The state of anime

[Fort Max]

If I like it, I buy it. No different than any US TV series or any movie I see in the theaters.

As do I, but many do not, they simply take, take, take.

One of my best friends is like this and he's the same age I am, we both watch the same mecha shows on fansubs but I buy considerably more dvd's then he does whereas he's happy just to keep the fansubs, or worse, buy bootleg dvd's.

Other people I know are even more obstinate, they won't pay to see a film at the cinema or even for a single on itunes.

I personally absolutely hate this entitlement culture we live in now.

I imagine it must be the same in Japan, only old skool long time fans are buying the dvd's still, publishers need more fans to buy them but why would they if they can just keep their digital recordings.

This is why I say the buisness has to change not just domestically but on it's own turf too.

And if they're going to start distributing through new means (i.e. locked digital content through the internet) then they might as well look into tapping other markets while they're at it.

[Godzilla]

This reminds me of the issue that ppl were copying video games in the early days. (to most here, I am prolly perceived as old as dirt ) I remember when games came out on 5 1/4" and 3.5 " floppys. (God, I feel like my father saying, "when I was young, I had to walk to school in 6 ft of snow and it was 10 miles to school...") It was easy to copy and distribute. I remembered I got X-Wing which was 5x 3.5" floppys, from BBS sites from Europe (in 5 zip files) since they got the game first. Someone in Europe cracked it and boom everyone that had access to FTP server or BBS site got the game the day before it was actually released. As a poor college student it seemed it was the right thing to do because we couldnt afford it. It wasn't right or was it? I mean we were paying for $2-3K for PCs at the time and why should we buy a $50-$70 game if we didnt have 2 dimes torub against. Regardless, games soon went to CD-ROMs but you couldnt copy the game on another CD-ROM. Someone got the idea to copy it to floppys. Good lord I remembered that I got Dark Forces from the BBS site and it was parted out on 25 disks. I got tired of unzipping it and copying it to the HDD. Then came the CD burner gaming industry. Anyone can now copy a CD-ROM but the technology was initially expensive. The nightmare for the media entertainment to the software began when prices came down where everyone can afford the CD burner,so they introduced a new copyright technology on the Discs. Someone later on made the crack the copyright so then you can copy stuff from the CD. But low and behold, DVDs where making its introduction since the games were getting more sophisticated, graphically stunning, and more space consuming. And then people copied games on many CDs. Then the DVD burner came out. Then the copy protection on the DVDs came out but with the internet, we saw many cracks available to copy DVDs. See the pattern? The gaming industry went back to having the product activation code. If you bought the game, the game came with product code to activate the game when you installed it. Still people made their code available or someone made a code generator because the algorithm was too easy. Sure algorithms got more complicated but there was always someone out there to crack it and then distribute it on the internet. But the internet became a double edge sword: if you wanted to play with other ppl on the internet, you had to use their servers to play. In using their servers, the game companies monitor the users if they had legimate codes. If they see users with the same code, any user using that particular code is banned. Now if you didnt play with others on the internet, no problem, right? Sure if your computer wasnt connected to the internet. Tell me which home computer is not connected to internet. Games got smarter in which you need to get the update if it was available from the company website. To get the update you need to have the uniquie code. If it see you have a cracked copy, too bad you are not getting the update. You need the update to fix bugs, right? The point? The video game industry adapted. They started placing measures and used the internet to help regulate copyrgh material. So does the anime industry have to follow this concept? I dunno. This way maybe good for one industry but not for another. Now I am not saying that the above is foolproof. Sure ppl will find a way to go around it. It is the nature of the beast. Someone is building a better mousetrap as well as someone will always get around the mousetrap. It's progress whether we like it or not. If there is money still to be made, then they will adapt to it.

Now for me, I understand it cost money to make the money hence I feel we are stealing if we are downloading music, software, etc. So if I like it, I buy. I know nothing comes free. In the end, ppl who steal, are they really saving money? Sure. But on the flipside, you are screwing the honest ppl who buy it and the ppl who makes these wonderful things. When more and more ppl begin to download because they get sick of paying while others brag they are getting it for free and want to get in on the free action. At that point, it is worth making it, why continue? Companies close and layoff happen and ppl loses their jobs. Of course this is not to say that companies are gouging prices to the point where ppl will rebel by using the internet to download because they hate being ripped off. In this society we go from one extreme to another and never the middle ground which is why IMHO we keep repeating history. In the end everyone loses... except the lawyers.

Damn this is going too deep here. I feel like I am on the debate team. Anyways, this reflection was based on my opinion. Bash away.

[chrono]

I remember when games came out on 5 1/4" and 3.5 " floppys.

>BIG olde snip<

Then came the CD burner gaming industry.

HAHAHA!!! Remember the days when it was on cassette tape? And computers could be expanded with clunky hardware plug-ins?

But all that aside burnable CD's have ended the control schemes that the company's had in place. However now the new control schemes are even more over reaching with the computer to be required to have a 'Net connection in order to either run it's OS or allow play with a new game.

The most easy solution to their entire problem is to not make the playable media computer accessible! But their greed will never let them do so.

@Fort Max,

They can do it easily by televising translated and dubbed anime the same day and time slot in BOTH nations. America via website distribution. Then in America each viewer gets a digital ticket (kinda of a permanent cookie) and if that ticket turns up in distribution then they are screwed! In Japan since TV is localized then they just encode a number into the anime show for each station and then backtrack it to the uploader.

Now sure it would be easy to take both out, but you've already removed the interest because fan subs are immediately bypassed!

[HG Blows]

Maybe just selling subbed versions would cut down production costs. I don't watch the dubbed versions anyway. But that's just me.

[Gunbuster]

Now for me, I understand it cost money to make the money hence I feel we are stealing if we are downloading music, software, etc. So if I like it, I buy. I know nothing comes free. In the end, ppl who steal, are they really saving money? Sure. But on the flipside, you are screwing the honest ppl who buy it and the ppl who makes these wonderful things.

That's the thing, the "people who download/steal stuff" don't care about anyone else but themselves. How do you fix that?

[Roy Focker]

Companies not just anime ones have always complained about how new technology is losing them money. Few of them assume that their stuff just plain sucks. Just gotta adapt with the times. If the internet is the threat than get on it and use it to make money. Besides half of the time isn't the show, music, etc just a lead in for selling more merchandise?

[chrono]

Ok after fully reading the article.

I agree with it's writer. But to be honest the Anime/Manga markets will crash and burn before any fundamental change can/will take place. Every localization company in the world should bring pressure against the company's responsible for the problem and force them to fix their internal FUBAR.

When They Cry would've been the hugh hit that the industry needed, but it'll never seen the US shores now.

[eriku]

If I could easily download quality subbed anime from a legitimate site, something like iTunes, I would gladly pay for it. I think a lot of other people would, too. I believe a lot of the current problems could be remedied if new anime had subbers on board during production so they could be available to non-Japanese fans shortly after their release in Japan.

For example, I would be a very happy boy if I could download a high-res official subbed Gurran Legann right now.

[Mr March]

If I could easily download quality subbed anime from a legitimate site, something like iTunes, I would gladly pay for it. I think a lot of other people would, too. I believe a lot of the current problems could be remedied if new anime had subbers on board during production so they could be available to non-Japanese fans shortly after their release in Japan.

For example, I would be a very happy boy if I could download a high-res official subbed Gurran Legann right now.

QFT ad infinitum.

[azrael]

If I could easily download quality subbed anime from a legitimate site, something like iTunes, I would gladly pay for it.

That part of the industry problem. Look at the iTunes US store. No anime. Here is a potentially large market for selling anime but there's nothing in sight. This may be due to Apple's pricing scheme which prices many companies out of the profit zone because they have to pay huge licensing fees and placing shows on iTunes won't even cover any substantial costs. This of course, goes back to the original Japanese companies. The article mentioned this. The Japanese entertainment industry is a maze of red tape and an olde-boys club. Execs have built their entertainment empires based on a traditional method. Little work has been done with new forms of bringing shows to the masses. ONAs (Original Net Animation) have been far and few to come by. Most are still "experimental" to companies.

[protostar8]

I read most of the article, but I haven't read any of the replies, so if my post is the same as someone elses, my bad.

I agree that waiting years to see a show in America is ridiculous. On top of that, the dubbing companies usually have crappy voice work IMO. Also, DVD's are way overpriced even when they come out years after a show finishes its run in Japan. I will never stop downloading new fansubbed shows, however I would be open to a subscription to a legit company in Japan if they did as good of a job subbing as fansubbers did (no XCHKS type of companies, I mean ones that actually know English from Engrish). I also would want to download the episodes and not just stream them b/c streaming quality is lacking compared to download quality in general.

Companies need to realize that they are putting out crap years after the majority of people who care about it have seen it, so why would people want to buy crappy versions of things they've seen???

Also, the most fundamental problem is the fact that the companies ignore the fact that their sales would be almost zero to US citizens if not for fansubbers...I'm talking about merchandise. Hell, HLJ is a shining example of this. How many people would be buying stuff from companies like HLJ or other anime/manga merchandise heavy places if not for the fansubs? I support the industry BIG TIME, just not by purchasing crappy Amerime versions of stuff I've seen. I buy the toys/models/keychains/etc. and I guarantee that stuff is worth more than the DVD set. In reality, these companies would have probably went belly up if not for support of merchandise buyers (if the article really is true about how badly fansubbing is hurting the industry b/c that implies that Americans constitute a large sum of money being lost), so they should be supporting the idea of a fansub subscription package instead of saying fansubbers are driving them out of business b/c they wouldn't have the American business anyway if not for fansubbing.

Edited November 28, 2007 by protostar8

[sketchley]

I imagine it must be the same in Japan, only old skool long time fans are buying the dvd's still, publishers need more fans to buy them but why would they if they can just keep their digital recordings.

Not likely.

One big difference is rental shops. A lot of new releases are not sold per se, but rented by anime fans. Yes, it's highly likely that the unscrupulous renters also make copies, but that raises another question: where are all of these copies stored? Yes, we've seen the hard core anime fans with huge collections of anime in Japan, but sooner or later they have to toss items, as their living arrangements are too small to continue acquiring new items.

Yes, large hard drives and large capacity discs exist, but then the cost factor comes into play. Not very many anime fans are big wage earners...

So that leads us to another point: not many people in Japan actually buy anime. They rent it. Due to that, only small quantities of discs are pressed for any particular title. Small numbers means a higher cost per disc. Even in Japan, anime is expensive to purchase... but hey, only hardcore fans of an anime actually buy discs of that series anyways...

[Chewie]

Illegal distribution laws have been in effect for decades and are fairly clean cut and are also quite often shown on the shows credits stating blatantly "NO distribution or re-distribution.". You also often get 2-3 of these warnings per bought movie or tv show and 1-2 times per showing on telecast.

So you feel that recording a football game and showing it later should be punishable?

The fact that you say that there actually IS a 'fine line' means that you're going out of your way to explain away any responsibility for your actions. It's exactly that type of attitude that the current 'Ethicless' fan-subbers/translators have.

I am not going out of my way to explain away anything. I am simply stating there is a difference between what can be construed as blatant theft and what is for the most part "innocent" acquisition of a tv show.

And for the record, I own every Bleach dvd available but it still doesn't stop me from downloading the show a few days after it airs.

[Godzilla]

That's the thing, the "people who download/steal stuff" don't care about anyone else but themselves. How do you fix that?

I never said the system is perfect. Read thru my entire post. Someone makes a better mouse trap all the time and someone is surely devise a way to defeat it. How do we fix those company price gouge the hell out of us? Remember when CDs are $20 a pop? There is no real easy solution. Of course lawyers are the real winners. They sue ppl left and right for digital media copyright. As I said look how the Gaming industry handle it. Then again, I have been to Shanghai and pirating DVDs to Xbox 360 games to GBA to PSP games. How the hell you stop them? Again this is all evolution. There is no such thing as an end all be all. This will constantly evolve. The anime industry is slow to evolve.

[Gunbuster]

Of course lawyers are the real winners.

LOL! I agree with that

[Gui]

[...] Of course lawyers are the real winners. [...]

Anime studios should invest into lawyers companies

[sketchley]

How do we fix those company price gouge the hell out of us? Remember when CDs are $20 a pop?

Again, be careful with one's comparissions. The facts are:

- low print runs cost more per unit

- anime is a niche market with low sales relative to other items

Therefore, if you want cheaper anime - buy more. Convince your friends to purchase it. Convince your local rental shop to buy anime and rent it. Convince online shops to sell it, and purchase anime from them. Move it out of the niche, and into the mainstream.

Companies will only provide products if they know there is a market for the products, and that the expenses involved with importing and modifying a product are covered, plus alpha.

Yes, previous distribution methods may be failing, but the bottom line is: are the people viewing the anime giving money to the people that make it? No wages to the creators = no incentive to make anime = no more anime.

And for those arguing the "try before I buy" thing - viewing only one episode of a series is much more than enough. Viewing an entire series is theft.

As for viewing one episode... can you watch an entire movie at a video shop before deciding if you will buy it? If you try that, they'll kick you out and send you to a rental shop. If you try to watch an entire movie at a rental shop, they'll kick you out and tell you to watch the preview for free on the internet.

How is that different for anime imported from overseas? It may not be timely released (but neither are movies instantly available on DVD when they are theatrically released), but anime is present in the North American rental shop. Been there, rented it.

And to illustrate the model in Japan; my experiences with Macross Zero. First exposure was renting the episodes as they became available at a video shop (Big West gets money from the video shop. No copy is kept in my home.) Second exposure is a late night showing. (Big West gets money from advertisers. No copy is kept in my home.) Third exposure is purchasing the DVDs (Big West gets money direct from me. Copies are kept at home.) Fourth exposure is torrenting subtitled fansubbed episodes. (Big West doesn't get any money. Copies are retained.)

Big West has received money for their product on three occasions; trial, trial and final purchase.

Did Big West receive any money from those trying Macross anime via fansubbers? Is Big West going to listen to people and make products for markets that don't buy their products? You want more Macross, pay for it. Retailers tend to listen to paying customers and any suggestions and complaints they may have.

Lastly:

So you feel that recording a football game and showing it later should be punishable?

If I'm not mistaken, recording it for personal use is acceptable (personal use means you, and only the members of your household get to view it later). However, presenting it to people not in your household is punishable.

[Dante74]

If I'm not mistaken, recording it for personal use is acceptable (personal use means you, and only the members of your household get to view it later). However, presenting it to people not in your household is punishable.

That depends on what country you're in. When big soccer games like the world cup are being aired here in the Netherlands, every bar in the country is packed full of fans watching the games. The bar owners make lots and lots of money off this and they don't need any special permit/license to do so. (They did, however, pay a small fee to have the tv in the bar in the first place)

[JsARCLIGHT]

I don't know how the Japanese legal system sees these things, but here in the states we actually had a pretty big legal case about the ramifications of "home recording" and to what ends the consumer had "rights".

The US Supreme Court on Jan. 17, 1984 ruled 5-4 that the noncommercial home use of video cassette recorders did not violate the federal Copyright Act of 1976. According to the video industry of the time, an estimated 10% of U.S. households had VCRs (spooky, huh?) with about eight million machines installed and in use at the end of 1983. The ruling was a victory for Sony (and the US consumer) and a defeat for Walt Disney Productions and Universal City Studios. The studios had argued that the home taping of copyrighted films and television shows violated their property rights and deprived them of revenues and they wanted the home video recorders banned from sale. The Supreme Court, reversing a 1981 ruling by the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, held that home taping did not infringe on the copyright law unless the copied material was used for a "commercial or profit-making purpose." This case set precedence and has stood since '84, it is used by the defense (usually successfully unless commercial damages are claimed) in almost every "personal use" copyright violation case I've seen.

What that monumental ruling means for US citizens is that if something is recorded in your home, you have full "rights use" of that recording as long as it is not used for "commercial or profit making purposes". Meaning you CAN record Monday night football and show it to your friend legally (as long as you don't charge him to view it). You CAN record a season's worth of Family Guy and your whole family can watch it at their leisure. This Supreme Court ruling has passed down to DVD and also passes down to DVR and any modern "child" of the VCR or machine that allows the consumer to record programs or movies in their home. By this ruling, the only "enforcement" the '76 Copyright Act has teeth on is the commercial and profit making side... meaning if you record a whole season of Family Guy and SELL the copies, then you are in the lion's den.

Where this ruling gets tested is with modern electronics (the internet) and at what point "distribution" is considered to be commercial / profit making / profit depriving. It's generally accepted that ANY distribution infringes, but single copies made from the source transmission intended for home view are perfectly legal.

Edit: It should also be noted that "home view" means just that, view in the privacy of your home. You can have one person or fifty people in your house watching that recorded material and it's perfectly legal... so long as you do not charge them (like having a "home theater" arrangement where you sell tickets). Places like pubs and bars are public places and as such they encounter public display issues. Most of those places have contracts with their cable / satellite provider and are legally licensed to engage in public display of programming. However pubs or bars that simply pull in an OTA broadcast from an antenna are not subject to those restrictions... but if they were to record that broadcast and play it back then they would hit the commercial / profit making provision.

These "use" clauses also extend to movies you purchase on DVD. By word of law those DVDs are only for "home use" and not public display or rental. Which then raises the question of what "public display" grounds are, which is a touchy subject. Generally the legal system has looked for profit in these cases, in example if you had 100 friends in a big room and you all watched a DVD does that constitute public display? Yes and no. If you charged those 100 friends then yes, if you are just showing a movie to be showing a movie then no. And that is where the law diverges. Heck, you walk into my post office during the holidays and they have a TV cart set up in line showing Christmas DVDs to hundreds of strangers waiting in line... I highly doubt the government will come down on the US Postal Service for violation of the '76 Copyright Act.

[Chewie]

While I didn't know the exact details as JsARCLIGHT pointed out, that is pretty much what I was trying to say. It's not illegal if we record it, only if we try to turn a profit from it. I personally don't know if there is "free" tv in Japan like our NBC, CBS, Fox, etc (basically any of the networks anyone with a $5 antenna can receive and view without paying for cable) but if someone in Japan records it, subs it and gives it to me, I don't see how it all entirely pertains to what the original article was trying to say about piracyas the main cause of the industries problem.

Anything I've ever downloaded has been done by guys like you and me in their spare time. They don't make a dime. They do it because they love anime and want to share it.

Age old politics, policies and an utter fear of the future and the internet (and its potential) are the problem. Not 12 guys in their garage subbing Bleach every week.

PS - I know Bleach isn't the only anime out there that it's being done to, but for the sake of the debate, it's my choice.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Chewie

[JsARCLIGHT]

Well, that is another sticky topic.

"Free" TV is not actually "free". It's free in that you the consumer do not have to pay to view it, but it's free because you are subjugated to viewing the commercial advertisements broadcast interspersed in it. There has actually been a court challenge to this issue with the advent of DVRs and other recording devices that let the consumer "skip" the recorded commercials. A group of consumers got together and sued to get a guarantee by broadcasters that they would not be prosecuted for "skipping commercials" using their ReplayTV DVRs. The suit was eventually heard and dismissed when the broadcasters all agreed to not pursue legal routes against consumers who "bypass" recorded commercials.

Once again though this is all under the auspice of "home use". For a party to record a show off of television and then "redistribute" it over the internet or other means they are in fact violating the '76 Copyright Act. Even if they are not "profiting" from the distribution they are indirectly "damaging" the original rights holder by a practice of profit depriving. The legal boundaries (in the US) of fair use pretty much "end at your doorstep", meaning as long as you the original "user" retain your "copy" you are free to view it in several ways... but if you "distribute" that copy (as in hand it around to people) or disseminate copies of your copy you are walking in thin ice legally.

Now a point of argument that CAN be made is the use of derivative works.

To quote US law for a second:

A "derivative work" is defined in 17 U.S.C. § 101:

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

When an independent user takes a foreign item like a TV show and through efforts of their own translates and subtitles it, technically that "product" is cast as a "derivative work" by US law. What that means is that that "fansubber" has created a new legal entity through their efforts, their "product" is legally "theirs" to do with as they please. The problem comes in with the clashing dissemination law in the '76 Copyright Act and the grounds of commercial profit from an original source. The "original creator" of the show can petition to have this new derivative work C&D'ed based on intellectual property violations, but they cannot seize or otherwise claim the derivate work as "theirs".

This whole issue is so mired in legal red tape, but the funny thing is that this maze of red tape is a two sided sword. An original rights holder (such as a studio) can throw a ton of legaleze on their product and do everything they can to scare the consumer into believing they do not hold certain rights... which in actuality they do hold. And on the other hand a consumer retains a lot of rights beyond what they would normally think they hold. This is the way complex law works... out of confusion and fear. People don't understand the law and how it functions so they make assumptions as to how they -think- it functions. Certain folks will capitalize on that and others will avoid it at all costs. Needless to say with the right lawyer and the right loophole nearly anything is legal... the question is do you really want to fight it out in court?

[chrono]

Thanks for posting that JsARCLIGHT! Saved my a good bit of typing.

@Chewie, you are still attempting to debate on the of justification of downloading. What I 'feel' or you 'feel' about it doesn't matter. The laws are quite clear, and NOTHING can stop a Japanese creator/copyright holder from suing your pants off with your nations law system.

Flat out, when your computer is connected to the Internet you are connected to a multi-layered distribution system and when you download or upload ANY material that is not yours by creation it's considered theft. Sure some things like uploading screenshots from games, movies, and shows are very questionable. But uploading/downloading shows, games, movies, and scanned in images from manga, magazines, or books that can all be bought (unless specifically stated) can be considered theft. Which is EXACTLY what got NAPSTER into trouble as well as GOOGLE via YouTube more recently. Go to the Library and look up the laws.

@Dante74, They are covered mate. Since the Bar has paid a fee to the local cable company (who in turn has paid a fee to the TV network, who in turn has paid for the ability to telecast the game to the franchise owners) and as long as they don't charge you directly for watching the game it's all good.

[sketchley]

Good answers all.

and I'll add to this:

@Dante74, They are covered mate. Since the Bar has paid a fee to the local cable company (who in turn has paid a fee to the TV network, who in turn has paid for the ability to telecast the game to the franchise owners) and as long as they don't charge you directly for watching the game it's all good.

The bar owner is also not recording, and disseminating any recordings to others. Which is what fansubbers are doing.

As it was asked:

In Japan, if you have a TV and an antenna, you are able to receive a couple of channels. This varies considerably per area (obviously Tokyo has the most), and the more remote areas only get NHK. About 4 years ago they started digital broadcasts, and analogue is due to stop in a few more years.

In addition, if it's in the area and you can afford it, you can also get cable. Cable has some great stuff, like those all-anime, all the time channels. Nevertheless, for those in Japan without cable, it is highly likely that Macross F will be broadcast on one of the those "free" (though paid for by watching CMs) stations, such as TBS and MBS.

Edited November 28, 2007 by sketchley

[protostar8]

You know, a very simple solution may exist to this problem. The companies can basically argue that the anime broadcast on a "free" station is "free" b/c you get commercials. What do commercials do??? They show you a product and make you want to buy it. Therefore, if the anime company would work together with subtitle groups, they could design websites full of images of products (which when we are talking about anime we're really talking about figures/shirts/accessories). The sites could also have randomly cycling intro screens for other products likes major businesses in the US who would pay to advertise to anime watchers to draw business (like Blockbuster). Thus, to download the anime, you would be exposed to lots of commercial related images, which would more than likely have the same effect if not a higher effect (when referring to anime specific items) as the potential buyer sees what the company has to offer. Heck, if I could go to a Gundam 00 or Macross F site and see tons of shots of toys and shirts and stuff before I got to the anime itself, I may just see something I want to buy. This could also insure quality subtitles since the subbers would work directly with the anime producer.

[azrael]

Therefore, if the anime company would work together with subtitle groups, they could design websites full of images of products (which when we are talking about anime we're really talking about figures/shirts/accessories). The sites could also have randomly cycling intro screens for other products likes major businesses in the US who would pay to advertise to anime watchers to draw business (like Blockbuster). Thus, to download the anime, you would be exposed to lots of commercial related images, which would more than likely have the same effect if not a higher effect (when referring to anime specific items) as the potential buyer sees what the company has to offer. Heck, if I could go to a Gundam 00 or Macross F site and see tons of shots of toys and shirts and stuff before I got to the anime itself, I may just see something I want to buy. This could also insure quality subtitles since the subbers would work directly with the anime producer.

Are we talking about anime companies or fansubbers?

[Chewie]

Then I guess I am a plain and simple pirate.

And I guess I don't care.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Chewie

[JsARCLIGHT]

You know, a very simple solution may exist to this problem.

-Snip-

While that is a feasible solution to the problem, it relies on several "ifs" to work. The first big "if" is advertising in general. The ad world is very fickle and worst of all, cheap. Advertisers want the highest return for their investments and "selling ad time" and "ad space" is actually much harder than it sounds. At the same time keeping those advertisers long term is also difficult. Your average advertiser will want to see a high return on their ad investment, generally in the realm of increased sales/profits from the demographic that advertising is playing to. They will say something like "it costs us X to advertise our product here, we expect Y percent or return on that investment". It sounds bad but lord help you if the first month doesn't show massive return, because then you will have to kneecap yourself to keep them as advertisers.

Ad revenues are also based completely on the place's ability to "turn exposure". You have to generate and maintain a certain level of traffic to justify your numbers to your advertisers. Which would mean that you would have to get X number of fanboys to watch Y number of shows regularly and then on top of that go out and purchase Z number of your advertiser's products to not only justify your advertiser's investments but keep the dollar amount they pay high enough to cover your costs. And then what inevitably happens is you wind up selling so much ad space to so many different "small potatoes" advertisers that your site and movies look like the side of a Nascar... which then creates the second "if". Will fanboys live with that? A constant complaint I hear from people who watch "freebie" movie sites like Adult Swim is that "the site is so glutted with ads". The ads pay for the media but people get really upset that they have to surf through all those ads to get to their media and then they have to wait through those commercials to see their media. For as "commercial" and ad glutted as our world is, people just hate ads and they will do everything in their power to fast forward that commercial or avoid it altogether.

While I also personally believe advertising is the answer, it is also a nest of vipers that will create as many problems as it solves.

[bandit29]

That part of the industry problem. Look at the iTunes US store. No anime. Here is a potentially large market for selling anime but there's nothing in sight. This may be due to Apple's pricing scheme which prices many companies out of the profit zone because they have to pay huge licensing fees and placing shows on iTunes won't even cover any substantial costs. This of course, goes back to the original Japanese companies. The article mentioned this. The Japanese entertainment industry is a maze of red tape and an olde-boys club. Execs have built their entertainment empires based on a traditional method. Little work has been done with new forms of bringing shows to the masses. ONAs (Original Net Animation) have been far and few to come by. Most are still "experimental" to companies.

Funimation has 9 shows(IIRC) on US iTunes store. Basilisk, Samurai 7, etc. 1.99 an episode or you can buy them all(price varies). Might be dub only.

look under: TV shows/networks/funimation

Edited November 28, 2007 by dejr8bud

[chrono]

Then I guess I am a plain and simple pirate.

And I guess I don't care.

*looks at his cd's of dl'ed anime*

As am I and many others, but understanding that it IS piracy is halfway to understanding the problems with today's anime market.

@dejr8bud, good news for fans. Industry killing for anime at that price!

[Zinjo]

*BUMP*

Will post my two cents hopefully tomorrow night.

Too interesting a discussion to just leave alone...

[JB0]

Well, that is another sticky topic.

"Free" TV is not actually "free". It's free in that you the consumer do not have to pay to view it, but it's free because you are subjugated to viewing the commercial advertisements broadcast interspersed in it. There has actually been a court challenge to this issue with the advent of DVRs and other recording devices that let the consumer "skip" the recorded commercials. A group of consumers got together and sued to get a guarantee by broadcasters that they would not be prosecuted for "skipping commercials" using their ReplayTV DVRs. The suit was eventually heard and dismissed when the broadcasters all agreed to not pursue legal routes against consumers who "bypass" recorded commercials.

Which I found utterly absurd given that people have been doing this for DECADES with VCRs.

And before that there was the mute control, which at least reduced the commercials.

This whole issue is so mired in legal red tape, but the funny thing is that this maze of red tape is a two sided sword. An original rights holder (such as a studio) can throw a ton of legaleze on their product and do everything they can to scare the consumer into believing they do not hold certain rights... which in actuality they do hold. And on the other hand a consumer retains a lot of rights beyond what they would normally think they hold. This is the way complex law works... out of confusion and fear. People don't understand the law and how it functions so they make assumptions as to how they -think- it functions. Certain folks will capitalize on that and others will avoid it at all costs. Needless to say with the right lawyer and the right loophole nearly anything is legal... the question is do you really want to fight it out in court?

I've found that what people believe copyright law to actually say is downright scary at times.

I think the worst I've seen was that inserting a game console disk into a PC is a violation of the law because the copyright holder never SAID you could stick it in something other than a game console.

Most of what I have to say already has been said somewhere.

For the product to remain viable State-side, it needs to reach the US in a far more rapid fashion than it does.

The whole entitlement thing has gotten WAY out of hand(I want it, so I can have it free! I'm a whiny spoiled brat! WAH!).

There need to be more outlets for viewing a show without committing to a purchase. A few companies ahve made efforts at this, but not many, and not well-publicised.

The whole entitlement thing has gotten WAY out of hand(You're gonna buy it even if it isn't any good! I'm a whiny spoiled brat! WAH!).

And of course, one thing everyone's missed... merchandising.

Bandai is one of the few companies to truly push merchandising hard, following on the heels of Gundam Wing's US popularity on Cartoon Network. The models and toys sold fairly well.

And then they shot themselves in the foot. Repeatedly.

They tried to follow Wing with the original Gundam. The 70s animation failed to appeal to the Wing fanbase. The show was pulled partway through it's first run. The toys littered shelves.

They replaced Gundam with G Gundam. Which apparently did fairly well, fan griping aside.

The merchandise lineup was screwed for 2 major reasons.

1. The action figure line had all the mechs in equal quantities. The popular 'bots sold out, and retailers were left with big piles of unmovable toys because no one wanted what was left.

2. In a VERY botched attempt to capitalize on the inexplicable demand of "battle damage" variants, they had an entire SECOND line of action figures called Gundam Battle Scarred. Which stores apparently ordered in similar quantities to the regular line.

3. Guindam Battle Scarred had the same character distribution issues as the regular line.

So stores stated with both lines. As the "good" characters in the regular line sold out, they packed more bad characters and battle-damage on shelves to try and get some of the debris out of the way. As people realized there wasn't any more of what they wanted coming, they settled for battle-damaged versions of the good characters. And if they couldn't move the bad characters in pristine condition, you can imagine how much trouble they had with battle-damaged versions.

Finally, they went with SD Gundam. From what I hear, it was NOT a well-liked show. And the SD Gundam toys littered shelves.

And on top of this, they were bringing models over not just from the current running-in-the-US series, but from other serieses too.

I saw frickin' SEED models selling alongside the SD Gundam toys. The Gundam name can't move mass-market merchandise by itself, and there was no SEED anime to promote it in the US(barring fansubs, which hit mainly the free-stuff entitlement crowd and the hardcore fan that was getting the original J package models from the comic store anyways).

In the end, what COULD have been a cash cow for Bandai turned into a series of marketing fiascos, and Wing was a highly-profitable fluke.

But the games did consistently all right, so I guess that's better than nothing.

[eugimon]

I don't know why everyone is assuming low numbers = high costs. Highly niche market movies like Bubba Hotep came out in the 14 dollar range. so too do the myriad direct to DVD movies. Are you guys telling me that python versus anaconda sells more units than shows like Transformers? Or that Disney/Pixar movies which always sell for 20.00 retail are a niche market comparable to anime shows like eureka 7? Manufacturing costs on DVDs is very low and it doesn't cost that much nowadays to master a disc either.

I think most people want to do the right thing. They want to buy and not steal, they just don't think the inherent value of a lot of media is worth the asking price. and since it's so easy and annonymous to steal, they do it. Personally, and I think many people would agree, anime shows charge top dollar and seem to provide little in return. Most discs are no frills ports of the show with little or nothing in terms of extra content, yet they ask as much, if not more than 2 disc Special Edition discs that offer hours of extra material as well as commentary. I'm not condoning priacy, I'm just trying to give an insight into why many people d/l and then don't buy the discs.

Edited November 29, 2007 by eugimon

[sketchley]

Low numbers = high costs is because of economy of scale.

In addition to the raw materials (disc, label, case, pamphlet, sleeve, etc.) the licensing fee and all of the other costs involved in acquiring, translating and creating the disc are also spread over more units.

Until information is presented proving otherwise, we have to presume that the retail cost of the disc includes the local retailer (distributor cost + transport + overhead + profit), the distributor (wholesaler cost + transport + overhead + profit), the wholesaler (original seller cost + transport + overhead + profit) and the original seller (manufacturing, set-up/acquisition/translation, and overhead costs + profit) justifies the sticker price.

Yes, internet distribution will eliminate a lot of that, but there will still be the original seller costs and the internet store costs. The one big difference is that the transportation costs are generally paid seperately, and usually a lot more expensive.

[eugimon]

Low numbers = high costs is because of economy of scale.

In addition to the raw materials (disc, label, case, pamphlet, sleeve, etc.) the licensing fee and all of the other costs involved in acquiring, translating and creating the disc are also spread over more units.

Until information is presented proving otherwise, we have to presume that the retail cost of the disc includes the local retailer (distributor cost + transport + overhead + profit), the distributor (wholesaler cost + transport + overhead + profit), the wholesaler (original seller cost + transport + overhead + profit) and the original seller (manufacturing, set-up/acquisition/translation, and overhead costs + profit) justifies the sticker price.

Yes, internet distribution will eliminate a lot of that, but there will still be the original seller costs and the internet store costs. The one big difference is that the transportation costs are generally paid seperately, and usually a lot more expensive.

again, why the difference then? Are you saying that bubba hotep or python versus anaconda are somehow cheaper to master and stamp? That those discs cost less to ship? Or that they don't cost the store as much to shelve?

I'd like to see some numbers to back up your assertions.

I'm not denying that economies of scale exist, I'm just doubting the claim that they would justify a near 100% mark up in price compared to other comparable shows.

Edited November 29, 2007 by eugimon

[JsARCLIGHT]

I have always believed the price of anime had more to do with the theory of limited return rather than actual overhead. The "theory of limited return" states that the maker assumes he is only going to sell X number of his products and he wants to make Y amount of profit, regardless of how many units he sells. So he simply prices his units so that selling X makes his Y. In example, let's say to make 100 DVDs it costs a distributor $1K. So right off the bat each DVD has $10 of overhead in it. Now let's say that the distributor wants to make $1K in profits, but they only think they will sell 50 DVDs... so what they do is price each DVD at $40. That way they have "made their goal" of recouping manufacturing costs and earning their projected profit if they only sell half of their stock. What they have done, in a business sense, is hedged their bets on what they feel their product can sell numbers wise. They pass along the burden of profit onto a smaller group of consumers in order to maintain their profit margins under a "limiting return" sales pattern.

To be honest almost every DVD on the market follows this business model. Why do you think one DVD costs $8 at Walmart a year after it came out when it used to cost $20? Because that DVD always cost $8, even less to make, it's just that upon initial release the distributor wanted to ensure their profit margins. After they met their projected scale everything after is gravy, so the prices start to come down at a distributor level which means retailers can offer lower prices.

A wonderful example is Toynami and their handling of their "masterpiece" toys. Those things don't actually cost $80, they just follow the theory of limited return and price their units so if only a small number sell, they still break even or profit. In the long run it's basically a company's way of limiting it's risk at the expense of it's customer.