The state of anime

[Mr March]

This is a really good read from the big cheese at AnimeNewsNetwork.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25

Editorial: An Open Letter to the Industry

by Justin Sevakis, Nov 25 2007

The following editorial is solely the opinion of its writer and does not necessarily reflect the views of Anime News Network or its affiliates.

These are good times to be an anime fan. DVD's have never been cheaper. If you're not into buying DVD's or don't have the money, you can download DVD-quality copies over the internet for free and never have to worry about anything bad ever happening to you, ever.

Consequently, these are downright terrible times for anybody in the anime industry. DVD sales are way down, profits are even lower, and a good number of companies are losing money hand-over-fist. Even in Japan, many productions aren't breaking even. People in both the US and Japan are feeling like it's the apocalypse.

The decline of the anime industry and the influence of fansubs on said decline is probably the most talked-about issue in the scene today. The pros have discussed it worriedly amongst themselves for years, but only recently are they speaking out about its damaging effects. Every time they do, and we post about it here on ANN, there's a firestorm of debate about exactly how bad fans should feel about downloading. Occasionally, industry people will pop in to argue for more guilt.

I understand the panic going on. I've seen the numbers myself. They're terrifying. It's not uncommon now for a DVD to not even make back the cost of the dubbing, let alone the license fee. When only a few years ago it was commonplace for shows to get licensed for $70,000 or more per episode, today a show can be licensed for less than half of that. And they're still not profitable.

Clearly, the business model is failing. People realize this, but nobody's actually doing anything about it. Rather than take decisive action, the industry keeps trying the same things it's been doing for years, and when that inevitably doesn't work, the fans who download are blamed. Which makes sense. After all, they're getting the product but not paying for it. Most people would call that stealing.

Now, if this was something new, perhaps I'd have a little more sympathy when the rights holders cry victim. However, the fansub scene is approaching voting age at this point, and digitally transmitted fansubs started circulating about a decade ago. Every year they've gotten more and more widespread (with the historic popularity of Naruto pushing them into complete prominence). And to date, those rights holders have done very little to stop them. There is now an entire generation of anime fans who have never been forced to pay a single dime to get their anime fix.

I do not blame the fans who download with impunity and don't buy a thing. Their attitudes, while damaging, are simply a reflection of the value of anime, which these days, is about $0.00.

That's right. Anime that has been fansubbed is effectively worthless. It's being given away for free. In terms of supply and demand, there is an infinite supply, and therefore the product is worthless regardless of how many people want it – it's like trying to sell buckets of sea water to people on a beach. The only people who would pay for it are either older fans who are attached to the old ways of consuming media, or worse, are doing so out of charity.

That is the state of this industry. And the companies who depend on anime for their livelihood let this happen.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

When I was a fansubber back in the VHS days, fansubbers felt lucky if more than a few hundred people saw their fansubs. Copies degraded with every generation, tapes wore out (and never looked great to begin with), and the whole thing was very ephemeral. You had to have connections to get fansubs, or be one of the few that knew how to use the internet to make contact with a distributor. Even if you already had a fansubbed anime when it was licensed, the legal copies were usually far superior in quality.

Digital fansubbing changed everything. Suddenly, an infinite number of very high quality copies could be made. Advances in data compression, computer horsepower and broadband connectivity over the years means that now even the least motivated fan can easily find, in English, whatever new is coming out in Japan merely days after it airs on TV.

The internet, that strange beast that now shapes our modern world, effectively takes distribution out of the hands of the rights holder and puts the consumer in charge. Now, even the smallest release – an airing on a satellite TV channel in a small island country, for example – can be put on the internet and distributed to millions of people, should somebody be motivated enough to upload it. Anime fans, being younger and more technically savvy than most demographics, quickly adopt these new methods. And since the internet is global, so is the fansub market.

That few hundred people from the early days has now become hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. However, fansubs are not like music in that anybody can rip a CD and upload it; they take quite a bit of work (and usually a small group of people) to produce. As those fansub groups have to then upload to everybody else, they should make for an easy legal target.

The domestic distributors, to their credit, have made limited attempts to get shows they've licensed taken offline, but their legal arsenal is limited to a Cease and Desist letter. Many of the more self-serving groups have discovered that these can safely be ignored, and little else will ever happen. Worse, by the time a domestic distributor licenses a show the fansub is likely to have been circulating for months. The damage is already done. With few exceptions, the Japanese side of the industry has not even done this much.

Legal rights, such as copyright to an anime, must be defended if they're to be recognized. Anime has not been defended to any effective degree.

Arthur Smith, president of Gonzo Digital Holdings International, recently compared the downloading of fansubs to breaking into the Apple Store and stealing an iPhone the day before it's released. This is incorrect for several reasons. Debate on physical property versus digital copies aside, if one breaks into an Apple Store, an alarm goes off, the police come, and if you're caught you go to prison. There's also a window and a few locks you'd have to break, and you could injure yourself in the process.

If we're to adjust Smith's statement to be truly factual, downloading a fansub would be something more akin to Apple leaving their entire stock of iPhones on a busy street corner with no locks, no guards, and a big sign that says “iPhone”. If the Apple store manager came in the next day and saw that all of them were stolen, he would file a police report and the police would laugh at him. If he then REFILLED the entire stock, still did not buy any locks or hire any guards (but added a small sign that says “please don't take me”), a couple people might start to feel a little bad, but they're still going to come back for more, and probably bring some friends too. Eventually that Apple store would go out of business, and most people would agree that they deserved to.

The point is this: You can't guilt people into buying something they don't want. If you can't make them want it, you simply don't have a business.

GETTING OUT OF THE RUT

To effectively understand the problem, one must understand two things: why people make fansubs, and why people download fansubs.

People make fansubs for one reason: to share cool new shows they like. (There are other personal reasons, of course, such as improving their Japanese skills and braging rights.) People watch fansubs because the American releases take years to come out (if they come out at all). Once on DVD, they often have to be bought sight-unseen, which sometimes works for movies on DVD but is an unrealistic commitment for TV series. To younger fans, DVD's are also very expensive.

There is currently no legal way for any of these needs to be met. As the anime industry has not given these customers what they want, these freshly empowered consumers are taking it themselves. Therefore, even if massive, expensive lawsuits were filed against fansubbers, the problem would not stop. Stopping current fansubbers would create a market vacuum. Fans would just find another way (and, as Odex recently discovered, they'd be very angry as well).

Before legal action will be effective, fansubs must be replaced. THERE HAS TO BE A LEGAL, INEXPENSIVE WAY TO WATCH NEW ANIME IN ENGLISH. Not necessarily own, but at least watch.

ADV Films and Funimation know this and have both attempted to fill this void with television networks, streaming and download services. However, neither can offer a show newer than a year old.

There are myriad ways of supporting such a venture. A low subscription price. Advertising. But it has to exist, and it has to be easier to use than bittorrent. It has to show new anime DAYS after it airs in Japan. It has to be available to most of the world. It can't lock out Mac or Linux users. All of these are reasons people will use to justify continued piracy.

Only then, after there is no reason for a fansub to exist other than pure greed, can a few choice lawsuits against a few prominent fansubbers scare the rest of the scene into compliance.

DVD sales would also return to their proper place, as the collectable for fans who really liked the show and want to keep their own copy. However, as packaged media declines, media companies must stay light on their feet so they can quickly adjust to new technologies as they start becoming more commonplace.

This is merely step one of a long road to recovery. But it's not a step that can be avoided.

DRAGGING THEIR FEET

This is easier said than done. The Japanese entertainment industry is infamous for being a labyrinthine, Brazil-esque muddle of red tape. Only the very highest executives of the producing companies can cut through the red tape, and to date they have shown little intention of doing so.

I can't name specifics here, as I don't wish to betray my confidences, but so far I've been given two primary reasons for this seemingly obvious solution not being put into action already.

The first is fear of change. Simply, the older companies that made their bones in the publishing business are scared to death of the internet and the threats it makes to their existing business. The logical fallacy here is that the internet has already impacted their existing business, and by not taking advantage of new technology, there's no new revenue to compensate for the lost old revenue.

More than anything, the rights holders are terrified that by allowing internet distribution, they might cut into the domestic Japanese market, upon which the entire industry now depends. This would be a valid fear if it weren't for the fact that everybody in Japan can already download HD-quality raw files (illegally) if they want to. If the otaku are still buying DVD's, an English subtitled stream would not make a difference. And even if they did watch (and weren't blocked), wouldn't many of those viewers want to buy the DVD as well?

The other reason is that these companies seem to be under the mistaken impression that American anime fans and their buying practices are nearly identical to Japanese otaku. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. American fans are younger, and are usually not nearly the “collectors” that their Japanese brethren are. Few will pay $55 for a half hour OAV, or even two TV episodes. But more importantly, they're not getting the TV airing that allows them to watch the show in the first place.

To make matters worse, as budgets have fallen the producers have compensated by making more shows that appeal to very specific niche audiences. (Moe, anyone?) While these shows will never be big, they're a short-term solution to keeping the all important Japanese otaku market paying the bills. Their audience in the States, while vocal, is even smaller.

LAST CHANCE

No matter how many appeals the industry makes to fandom, nobody is going to stop downloading. If something is free and available, people are going to take it. That's a fact of life, and no amount of guilt and blame will change that.

The industry is now at a crossroads, where the effects of all this is finally causing significant financial problems before new anime even gets made. The jobs of many talented artists and the countless other people that make up the Japanese animation industry are on the line. The current system is broken beyond repair, and to make money again, the entire way things work needs to be rethought from the ground up.

And those in charge can do it now, or watch their companies and a once thriving, fascinating creative landscape slowly die out.

But it has to be now.

[Seven]

Great read, Mr. March, thanks! It's pretty sobering, but it seems all of media is struggling under the advent of digital distribution and Bittorrent. Until someone can get a handle on how to rework the entertainment industry from the old paradigm to the new digital one, it's going to be tough going for a while yet.

[eugimon]

thats an interesting read. I have to say, ine thing that bugs me about anime DVDs are their prices. I can buy a homegrown show like avatar for 12 bucks a disc, but an equivalent japanese disc costs almost 2x as much. Frankly, I have friends who work in the localization industry... friends who have worked on HUGE shows that yu would all know and I can safely say they don't get paid enough to justify an 80% price difference. Frankly, I think japanese publishers need to realize that in order to sell their products overseas, they'll need to price it accordingly.

[danth]

That is a damn insightful piece. He made some great points that never even occurred to me before. Thanks for posting it!

[David Hingtgen]

<<THERE HAS TO BE A LEGAL, INEXPENSIVE WAY TO WATCH NEW ANIME IN ENGLISH.>>

That's all that really needs be said. Nobody's going to wait 3 years and pay $1+ per minute for anime. And half the stuff I want/watch NEVER comes out. (If it passes 3 years, that's effectively never). Example---Macross Zero. Or Macross 7. Even if it does some day come over here, it took so long it's effectively pointless/worthless at this point.

Of course, as I have for years, I blame dubs. Subs are cheap. Company X could license and sell a dub in weeks for cheap. But they don't, because the masses want dubs. And that costs a ton of money and time. And they refuse to quickly make a cheap sub and sell it to us sub-preferrers, to make money to fund the later dubbing.

[Graham]

Yeah, very interesting read. The anime industry definitely needs a serious shake up.

I will say that even though like most of us on this forum, I will download fansubs of Macross Frontier when it’s released, I fully intend to do the right thing and support the creators by buying the original Japanese R2 DVDs and if we are lucky enough to get an international release, I’ll buy those DVDs as well. But that’s just me, crazy Macross fan/collector, who likes having a good old fashioned physical disk.

Graham

[TheLoneWolf]

That's a very good editorial, I especially like how it examines the issue from all sides instead of your typical one-sided editorial.

While I can't speak for the masses, I have no problem paying for anime as long as I feel it's a quality title. I downloaded the Gunbuster fansub years ago, but when Bandai announced the R1 DVD's I didn't hesitate to buy it. Gunbuster had an excellent story and I'm proud to display it on my DVD case, but on the other hand I would never pay money for pile of crap like Macross Zero, that show is strictly a download. If the industry wants my money, then they should produce more quality titles instead of generic pop anime. As an older fan, I have a full time job with disposable income, so I wouldn't mind buying quality anime even if I could download it. But if the industry is going to cater to the much larger teenager demographic with pop anime, I don't know how they expect them to pay for it while working minimum wage.

Another one of the problems is that DVD's don't offer anything that you can't already download, so there's little incentive to go out and buy it. But if the DVD's came with something that you couldn't download, like a small harbound artbook, that may stimulate sales. I've seen some companies try this idea, but they usually throw in worthless memorabilia like keychains, pencil sharpeners, t-shirts, etc. Why not tempt fans with something truly interesting? Say, every DVD of this series will come with a piece of a ship (or character) from said show and if you buy them all you can then assemble the figure.

I also agree with eugimon in that Japan is most likely overcharging US distributors for anime licenses.

[Duke Togo]

It has to show new anime DAYS after it airs in Japan. It has to be available to most of the world. It can't lock out Mac or Linux users. All of these are reasons people will use to justify continued piracy.

QFT. That's all there is to it.

Macross F will most likely never see the light of day outside of Japan. Am I supposed to not look to fansubs?

[sketchley]

This is essentially the "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" arguement.

Illegal acquisition of anime outside of Japan means less people outside of Japan will purchase DVDs, meaning that less are made, and the price goes up; that's if any DVDs get produced outside of Japan in the first place.

On the other side, it's a foreign import. If one is not in Japan, it's going to be extremely rare and expensive. Go to one's local foreign food store. Imported foods not made for the domestic market are more expensive. It's a fact.

The solution to that external situation (again, I'm in Japan, my perspective is different, and by the content of the article, it is largely an external to Japan issue) is to bite the bullet, pay the extra money needed to cover import, licensing and translation costs, and learn Japanese.

Another option is to be patient, and wait for anime to be broadcast on one's domestic TV. How's that going to happen? From the people downloading anime. TV stations will not know there's a demand unless they are made aware of the demand. Even then, it must be expected that anime will never be mainstream. It's not here. The broadcast hours of Macross F and the current ones for Macross 7 and Macross Dynamite (yes, it's being broadcast every week) are indicative of that.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that unless one is in Japan, anime from Japan is a foreign import in a foreign language. Instant is not part of the equation. Internally, the market is covered. Externally (to Japan), the Japanese are being respectful and not interfering with the external markets, and letting people inside of those markets determine their own fate(s).

Yes, the internet is changing the rules of the global market, but one must always keep in mind that the rule of law is different in different countries, and what may be legal in one country may not be legal in another. In addition to the situation (internet connections, use of personal computers in general, broadcast and/or content restricts) being different.

Edited November 27, 2007 by sketchley

[Uxi]

DVD's the world over are going down in sales. What the content producers need to realize is that the 20th century mechanisms for distribution are an anachronism. We had music and arts before we had the recording and publishing industries... and we'll have them after, if they fail to adapt. These big companies aren't needed to produce such things (things like private funding and sponsorship predominated historically) and they're increasingly not needed to distribute them (the Internet works quite nicely for this)...

I would be happy to pay someone for a decent quality copy of Macross 7. I was happy to pay an HK bootlegger for relatively great picture quality, even if the subs were ok at best, decent most of the time, and horrendous at others. I would have much more gladly paid Bandai Visual, ADV, or even HG, but I'll stick with the Psycho Korps fansubs until Big West (and the rest of the collective industry) pulls their heads out.

[Warmaker]

I've seen a similiar thread in the AnimeonDVD forums regarding fansubs and how it impacts the anime industry. From the article Mr.March posted, this is the big deal for me:

"People make fansubs for one reason: to share cool new shows they like. (There are other personal reasons, of course, such as improving their Japanese skills and braging rights.) People watch fansubs because the American releases take years to come out (if they come out at all). Once on DVD, they often have to be bought sight-unseen, which sometimes works for movies on DVD but is an unrealistic commitment for TV series. To younger fans, DVD's are also very expensive."

I italicized the portion that means the most (from my American perspective). I don't mind lagging behind the original Japanese audience, but only to a certain extent. I traditionally buy DVDs, but it irks me just to wait on hearing even a rumor that a show I want to see won't get released here in the USA for years. The Japanese showing could be done and over with, already released on DVD in Japan, and we still won't be hearing anything for a legitimate release in the USA. It'll take years for a show to come across the pond. Even worse, there's a good chance it won't even be picked up at all, especially if it's a less known show. Really, if I didn't rely on fansubs for certain shows, when should I stop waiting for an official US release of "Legend of Galactic Heroes"?

I still recall my dreadful days as an anime fan in the 90s. For example, I wanted to see Record of Lodoss War and Patlabor (just ANYTHING Patlabor). I'd see them in imported Newtype magazines. They seemed like shows I'd really be interested in, but impossible for me to get a hold of and watch. It took roughly 5-7 years for them to make it on VHS over here in the USA. It took me the same amount of time to find a US VHS release of the Silent Mobius movie, and they were rare to find. And there still isn't a US release for the 2nd movie. Macross? Good luck if it's not Macross Plus or SDF:M, since every other Macross show isn't coming officially to the USA anytime soon. On and on and on.

Time. That's the major issue, IMO. Patience on waiting for a show will only go so far. Cost would be next for the more cash strapped fans.

[azrael]

If you want a place to start, start with the kids these days. As much as the industry needs to change with the times, kids these days live with instant access. Many of you say you'll pay for good copies. On the flip side, many kids won't. Why pay for something if the quality is going to be the same? The article says that fansubs are worthless. That's true. Because the price to download them is only time spent downloading them, what is a fansub worth? Especially if it's the same quality as what you get on a DVD? And with anime being shown on TV in HD, what is it worth to be on HD-DVDs or BluRay? Anime companies charge prices well above normal ranges because their product has been rendered worthless to the audience because of fansubs. Why spend the money when you can get it for free only hours after it appears? This goes well beyond anime. Look at the iPhone or any cellphone in the US. Why do they not come unlocked? Why do most places sell them with a plan? Because people don't want to pay. Why pay for something if one can get it cheaper? This is the mentality that the industry needs to think about. At the same time, they need to make it worth something to people. But maybe they have thought about this and yet the problem remains. So now we turn to the audience. How do you tell people to be patient in an era of instant access? How do you tell people to wait when they grow up with access to anything in the world at the touch of their fingers? How do you make something worthless, worth something? How do you tell them that the product you are selling is worth more than the same item they got for free?

[Duke Togo]

Because the price to download them is only time spent downloading them, what is a fansub worth? Especially if it's the same quality as what you get on a DVD?

The point is a large majority of what is being fansubbed and downloaded is NOT available domestically, and won't be for years, if ever. Its easier for me to watch a Yankees game in Japan that it is for me to watch Gurren Lagann in the US.

We cannot buy a product that is not available for us to purchase.

[Wes]

David I disagree. If fansubs are an issue it's proff that they don't bother those interested in subs that much. Aparently the distrubutors think they can get more people to get behind it if it's dubbed, but that's wasting 80% of effort on 20% of the audience, which probably won't buy that much even then.

Azrael I think you're off - it isn't instant access, it's low cost. Shoot I'm a big deal hunter. I won't pay retail for a game, I buy my electronics only if they've had at least a 50% drop in price from their introduction and then lower than that if I can haggle it. And although alot don't go to my depth many more are looking for a deal (and taking some of mine before I can grab them the jerks ). It's this mentality I realize that let's there be more "Made in Japan" than "Made in America" out there and we do suffer when we don't take quality into consideration, I try to.

But industries have to take into consideration the quality of their products. I mean that's what happened with the music-sharing phenomenon. Most people can tell that CDs are far superior in quality to mp3's, but if you download that album and only like 2 songs on it, you're not going to buy that whole thing. Technology has created far more savy buyers. And I think that's one thing the article is off on - good that they hit on that you shouldn't blame downloaders when your profit projections fall thru, but people are willing to pay for really good stuff at reasonable prices. Neither producers nor consumers should get too greedy.

[Mog]

That was definitely a good read.

From the dumb American Yank' perspective, there's a few other things I'd like to point out about cost and time on this issue.

Most box DVD sets for an anime series cost a heckuva lot more than one season of a typical US television series. Sure, I understand that an imported series is gonna cost more than a domestically produced series. But geez!! You mean to tell me that I should pay a heftier price for a 24 to 26 episode anime series than I would for one season of a show like 24 or BSG or even one season of a DC animated universe series?

Sure, I'm willing to pay a bit of a premium for a quality anime series. But sometimes that premium is just too high, especially when there's cheaper DVD alternatives that give me more bang for my entertainment dollar.

Plus, there's the whole issue of special features and commentaries that you don't often see in most anime DVD's.

The other issue is the time-lag that comes with these anime releases in the US. I understand that they probably need the time-lag to do the dubs and stuff. But it literally takes a year for an entire anime series to be fully released. I mean, why do they still follow this snail's pace "release only one disc with 4 episodes every one to two months" format with some anime series? Eureka Seven already finished its run on Adult Swim over 6 months ago, and they still haven't released the entire series on DVD here in the US yet.

From the US perspective, the cost premium and the time-lag are definitely contributing factors to why anime DVD sales are down. When you've got free and almost instantaneous fansubs on the internet and less expensive domestic DVD alternatives to choose from, is it any wonder why the current anime model isn't working anymore?

Sure, I'd love to add a few more anime series to my DVD collection. But these two factors usually stop me from doing so.

[sketchley]

See my post above for my main opinion.

Most box DVD sets for an anime series cost a heckuva lot more than one season of a typical US television series.

It's highly inaccurate to compare a domestically created and marketed release to an imported foreign release. It is far better to compare domestic releases. Are anime releases more expensive than drama releases in Japan?

This is, of course, in addition to is your country's currency faring well or badly against the yen?

Plus, there's the whole issue of special features and commentaries that you don't often see in most anime DVD's.

Some to many releases have them. I have a feeling that they may not be translated and included in the releases outside of Japan.

One thing to consider is that there may not be a market demand for them in Japan to begin with. I haven't seen very many domestically produced live-action movies, so I cannot comment with certanty. Nevertheless, I feel that this must be said: anime fans are more interested in art, and not so much the people that produce the art. Anime fans, after all, are not reknown for their social skills.

The other issue is the time-lag that comes with these anime releases in the US. I understand that they probably need the time-lag to do the dubs and stuff. But it literally takes a year for an entire anime series to be fully released. I mean, why do they still follow this snail's pace "release only one disc with 4 episodes every one to two months" format with some anime series?

Sometimes an accurate translation does take time. In other cases, it's getting a translation approved from the owners of the licensed material.

As for the snail's pace of releasing - there are many reasons and factors. The biggest one is that they are going to sell a lot more if they allow time for marketing to sink in. Other factors to consider are disc pressing scheduling at the factory and storage space for all of the material waiting to be sold. I'm also pretty sure that retailers don't have the space nor want to promote and store hundreds of similar titles at the same time.

Yes, posters will probably demand a paradigm shift as the internet allows for new distribution models. However, even with content on demand, the licensing company may choose to only release one episode per week. Not to mention bottlenecks at the source like we experienced on the macross site after they released the Macross F clip. Even with a new distribution paradigm, time, patience, and money are required.

[wolfx]

i'm just waiting for the day that anime will be offered FREE and money is made elsewhere....maybe Google will come up with some insane business model "Animoogle" or something.

Then debates like this will seem silly by that time.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The internet has changed the world. It has introduced new forms of commerce and made billionaires out of people who by all accounts "should have been paupers" while at the same time smashing old business models and driving some people into the poor house.

The funny thing is that we have seen this all before. If you look at history, technological advances spell the doom of the previous media or conveyance. While in some cases the advance completely obliterated some technologies (the telegraph killed the pony express and was then itself killed by the telephone) relegating them to museums, other forms just had to "change" how they did things to survive. Stage shows were nearly killed by the motion picture, radio was nearly killed by the TV... But they survived. They survived because they found ways to make themselves valuable to the consumer so that even though people had their TV and movies, they still wanted radio and stage plays.

The difference in those past technological leaps was that everyone embraced them, business and consumer alike, and they rode off into the sunset hand in economical hand while the older technologies found ways to remain viable through change in how they did things. The difference with the internet is that the consumer has embraced it but the businesses are fighting it. They want to keep using the old technology, because it makes them the most money, while the consumers want to use the new. Hence the clash we have today. IMHO it's not the consumer that needs to change, it's the business. The people will always flock to what they want, if business keeps up with them or not is their problem really. Suffice it to say smart businesses are already adapting to the internet age and meet people's needs. The problem is that this adaptation is not happening fast enough for many.

Also, folks like me find it ironic how certain "businesses" are complaining to high hell these days about their falling profits. What we find ironic is that these businesses didn't exist 50 years ago... they basically "made" themselves and told us to play by their rules. Now that people are rebelling against those rules these businesses flounder and whine about their down turning profits... It's kind of like a salesman who arrived in a desert years ago selling sand. Before that salesman showed up, sand was free. Sand was everywhere and people who dealt in sand gave it away for free out of the joy of sand. All they asked in return was perhaps a drink and a place to sleep while they handed out their sand. People enjoyed that free sand and enjoyed the people who gave it out for free, but now that the salesman came they all "discovered" that sand had "value". People were eager to buy the salesman's sand. Soon the folks who gave their sand away signed on with the salesman because he promised to make them rich. "Why give your sand away for a drink and a bed?" he said. "Stick with me and we'll all be millionaires". This tactic worked. People who once got their sand for free now paid for it, and they seemed happy to do so. Soon, certain types of sand became more "valuable" to the salesman and eventually only those types of sand were offered for sale. Some kinds of sand nearly vanished from the desert, simply because the salesman didn't want to sell them. After years of this people still seemed content... until one day a man in the desert invented a machine that let people duplicate their own sand. Now the people could get all the sand they wanted... for free... like it was before the salesman came. So now the question became why bother to buy sand from this salesman when sand is free again? Rather than find a way to profit off of this new development the salesman complains. "This isn't fair" he would say. "You are supposed to buy MY sand, not copy someone else's sand!" The desert people then say "sand is sand... we don't care how we get it, we want it and if we can get it for free then that is how we'll get it". So then, who is "right"? The salesman? The desert people?

[Ghadrack]

The sad part is that if the companies that create the product would get onboard and offer essentially internet pay-per view for their content and cut out all the middle men charging a nominal fee, like 2 bucks per episode viewing for brand new content, as the author states, the current shows at the same time they are being broadcast in Japan they would likley be floating in cash.

I agree that it is fear of change that is killing them. The time has come for online conttent distribution, streaming or downloadable, they just have to make a small investment in setting up a distribution channel and proper pricing for new content. Most people I know would embrace legal content downloading if the prices were reasonable.

[bob joe mac]

All I have to say is why should I have to pay for something that I should be able to watch for free on tv... and after watching it for free on tv then deciding about purchasing it or not...

Example US TV - I watched heroes... for free... liked it so much bought the box set...

Example Fansubs - I watched Galaxy railways fan subbed for free liked it so much I bought the box set. Same with berserk, Escaflowne amongst others.

I don't see the problem. I remember back when anime on VHS was the only thing you could get and yet everything I seemed to rent was god awful so I had to waste my money renting something that the japanese saw for free on tv...

I'll support fansubs as they let me pick what I would like to purchase from pure garbage.

and one final point I adore One Piece and if the ONLY option to get it here is the abomination the 4 kids made by replacing guns with super soakers. Characters going "to the hospital or jail" instead of DIEING. Cutting out ENTIRE story arcs. Of course I'll support fans who clearly care more about the show then the company marketing it here in North America.

[Apollo Leader]

Since we're talking about pricing, who here has seen what the US release of MS Igloo is costing? A lot of the online stores carrying it are going for $45 to $50! That means to own each of the two individual MS Igloo discs, it will likely cost $100+ for TWO DVD's! I might as well buy the Region 2 release!

If Bandai Visual USA/Honneamise releases the original Mobile Suit Gundam TV series, it would probably cost $500 or more!

[sketchley]

The sand metaphor doesn't fit the situation at all. It's arguing that the artisans who create anime initially worked for free, and only big business has ascribed a value and price to anime.

I know that I will not work for anyone unless I am paid; and I'm sure all of you do too. Why should we assume otherwise of the artisans who create anime?

Without knowing what pricing is reasonable (Japan has a high cost of living, wages are proportionally high as well,) it is hard to debate the issue.

Nevertheless, I agree that concurrent releasing of new productions on the internet is a viable solution. However, for that to be in English (and most likely only subtitled at that,) companies will have to be involved with an anime from it's initial production. To the best of my knowledge, only Manga video has done that with "Ghost in the Shell." (Note: it's one of the rare domestic (to Japan) anime DVDs with both English subtitles, and English dubbing.)

But, that would require a huge business paradigm shift for external companies, and a lot more up-front expenditure on risky projects that they may never see a return on. I don't think many anime importers have the capital to do that.

From my understanding, these companies prefer to wait for a series to be completed, guage it's popularity and then weight the odds of making a profit if they export it from Japan.

Edited November 27, 2007 by sketchley

[sketchley]

All I have to say is why should I have to pay for something that I should be able to watch for free on tv... and after watching it for free on tv then deciding about purchasing it or not...

Actually... you're not watching it for free. You're paying for cable, right? Advertisers are also sponsoring the show's broadcast. Are you watching advertisements when you see a fansub?

[azrael]

The point is a large majority of what is being fansubbed and downloaded is NOT available domestically, and won't be for years, if ever. Its easier for me to watch a Yankees game in Japan that it is for me to watch Gurren Lagann in the US.

But what happens when it does come out domestically? If someone has the same thing compared to what is being pushed onto home video, why would they buy a $20 DVD with 3-4 episodes, when they already have the entire series on their hard drive that they got years earlier and already converted to DVD?

it isn't instant access, it's low cost. Shoot I'm a big deal hunter. I won't pay retail for a game, I buy my electronics only if they've had at least a 50% drop in price from their introduction and then lower than that if I can haggle it.

But the 2 are tied together. Instant access at almost zero costs. What better combination can you get? You are getting a free lunch now. What is your time worth to you if you have to wait year before it comes? Many people aren't willing to wait. And within that group is a group not willing to pay. What is a better price that free and free right now? If I gave you a product that you wanted for free, right now, would you take it now instead waiting months or years for it to come down in price?

[Fort Max]

I read this yesterday morning and as I understand it the ideal solution is to get anime studios to legitimize fansubbers, i.e. pay them for an accurate nglish translation in a digital format. They would then chrage fans a small fee to download this except it would be made avilable at the same time as the domestic release (also on the internet).

If studios could start doing this and in more languages then just English then they would soon see a turnaround in profits.

[Mr March]

Good replies all. I figured this would be a good article for everyone to read and the detailed responses prove many of our members have given significant thought to the issue. I'll weigh in with a few thoughts of my own and hope they offer some insight.

I think a major point in the ANN editorial, which may not have been emphasized as much as it should, is the debate over the window of initial availability . This is not a problem unique to the international anime industry, but it is a case in point. Traditionally, the only way television was available was through television broadcast. Films were only available through the theatre. While home video did have an effect on the market for film and television, it had negligible effect upon the traditional channels through which media became available. However, the internet has changed all this. Now rather than being limited to the television or the theatre, the internet has become a tertiary channel through which distribution of media occurs. Much like Justin Sevakis, I believe the biggest problem with the international anime industry, the Japanese anime industry and other like industries such as the US film industry is a failure time and again to recognize this fundamental change AND to seize advantage of this changing distribution landscape. I'm sure the reasons all these companies have are many, but the simple fact remains that our modern entertainment companies are simply not changing with the times.

I also believe that this latest development in the international anime industry brings to light many factors which both businesses and consumers took for granted. International anime, despite growth outside of Japan, has not been of interest to the Japanese. Some may call this respect while others label it xenophobia, but no more is this attitude apparent to the non-Japanese anime fan than it is when these fans realize the Japanese simply don't place any importance upon the international anime market. This apathy to the international market keeps Japanese companies focused on little more than the domestic market. The proof? The disproportionate costs of licensing anime in the U.S. compared to the actual size of the market (despite the lesser cost of anime for the foreign consumer versus the Japanese consumer). Japanese companies continue to charge luxury prices for anime distribution because anime is considered a luxury item to them and functions as such in their own domestic market. Anyone else not willing to pay those luxury licensing prices outside Japan is simply out of luck.

Having said that, I do believe this is both a wake up call for the international anime industry and for the Japanese anime industry. The international anime industry (now at its largest point ever but starting to drop) is once again being reminded they are incidental to the Japanese. At the same time as this revelation is hitting the foreign industry, the Japanese are becoming increasingly aware of the effect international online distribution of anime is having upon domestic anime sales in Japan. Obviously, the Japanese don't like it and the issue has become important enough that the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs has made it a point in their negotiations in the trade market (see link).

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-...leases-of-anime

What does this mean to me? I suppose it means eventually the international anime industry will collapse and the Japanese will continue to stay focused on their only interest: the domestic anime market. Anime has grown internationally for decades now along with a generation of non-Japanese fans. But the Japanese have really been anything but interested. The international anime market has been a curiosity for the Japanese, a modest source of additional revenue and even a point of flattery, but that is all it has ever been to them. As a Canadian, the policy certainly strikes me as different since I'm used to domestic companies seeking all sources of revenue with vigor, whether foreign or domestic. No market left unsold, as they say. But it's really a choice for the Japanese and if they don't wish to pursue foreign anime sales and promotion, that's just a reality we have to live with.

I do believe that eventually, anime will become readily available to foreign consumers, but only at the same pace as the proliferation of foreign programming through new technologies that globalize the television broadcasting marketplace. Satellite, streaming internet, and similar technologies will eventually bring anime anywhere through official distribution. But if attitudes of the people running the entertainment companies are any indication, this change will be very slow.

Thank gawd for fansubs!

Edited November 27, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

I read this yesterday morning and as I understand it the ideal solution is to get anime studios to legitimize fansubbers, i.e. pay them for an accurate nglish translation in a digital format. They would then chrage fans a small fee to download this except it would be made avilable at the same time as the domestic release (also on the internet).

If studios could start doing this and in more languages then just English then they would soon see a turnaround in profits.

Actually no. The studios are making money. That's why they're continuing in business. They make their money in Japan. The jist of the article is outside of Japan, and the market of companies that legally import anime from Japan.

Paying fansubbers makes them into anime importers from Japan, and they too will be subject to licensing fees, as they are making a profit off of someone else's work.

As this debate is English centric and Fort Max mentioned other languages, I am curious about the situation in non-English markets. From what I knew of the situation about a decade or so ago, anime was more popular and more successful in non-English markets. Does anyone know the current situation?

[JsARCLIGHT]

The sand metaphor doesn't fit the situation at all. It's arguing that the artisans who create anime initially worked for free, and only big business has ascribed a value and price to.

That is because up to a few centuries ago "retail art" was not a job. Artists made one masterpiece, sold it, and that was that. If someone wanted to see that painting, they went to the museum and saw it. If someone wanted to see that finely crafted castle they went to it and looked at it. "Art" was all about the person and not their works, if you wanted a Rembrandt you hired the man and got his product... or barring that you hired someone else to approximate his style for you. Either way there was a direct link between the buyer and the artist. The artist was all about his art and he would accept payment (food, drink and a place to stay in times of yore... cash today) for his works. The problem came in when someone else, and outsider, came up and started selling copies of an artist's works for them. As the article says this practice devalues that artist's works and shifts the importance off of the artist and onto the product... and over time when the product itself becomes "valueless" it's a hollow ethic that breeds the kind of piracy we see today.

I myself own a graphic design / CGI studio. We are old school tradesmen artists, not "pay for play" artists. You hire US to make you what you want, we don't sell a billion copies of the one thing we did. The end result is every "job" is custom tailored to you. Kind of like if you could hire U2 to come to your house and play in your back yard and only play unique songs to you, for you. There you have something of worth, something unique. Just as if you hired Leonardo DaVinci to draw you a unique, one of a kind picture. THAT is art, it has value and can be traded as such... but copies of it are pretty much worthless. They are only worth what someone is willing to pay and in truth devalue the artist's works into a commodity for people to trade and exchange.

Folks nowadays don't see things like the olden times. They see everything as a commodity, a "thing" to be moved from one place to another. That way of thinking has greatly benefited the middle men, the managers and the corporations. They are the ones who gain and lose selling copies of other people's art. The artists themselves are almost lost in the mix.

In the sand analogy, the salesman is really the only one who profits. The artists are his slaves... they make one thing, he pays them for it once then he profits off of copies in perpetuity. His abuse of the copies eventually devalues the importance people put on the work of the artists which in turn not only hurts him but the artists he hires. When the power of the "copy" comes into the hands of the masses, the salesman is out of business. It's this mass consumerism, mass media archetype that has failed... not the artists or their art.

[sketchley]

In the sand analogy, the salesman is really the only one who profits. The artists are his slaves... they make one thing, he pays them for it once then he profits off of copies in perpetuity.

Ahh... thanks for the clarification. The point your making makes more sense now.

Though, the line that I quoted is not necessarily the whole truth. To my understanding, some works are still partially, sometimes completely, still under the ownership of the original artists (probably more true of anime made from manga than others). The US Writer's Guild strike has also highlighted payments to artists long after their artistic involvement has finished.

I don't know the Japanese market well enough to make any statements, but I feel strongly that some artists are still receiving compensation long after the fact.

On the flip side, without salesman "enslaving" artists and getting a group of them to work together on a single project, we would never see projects like on the scale of Macross F coming to fruitition any time soon. Art takes time, and quality art in quantities as seen in motion pictures is generally beyond the abilities of any one person.

Curse the salesman, or praise him?

[JsARCLIGHT]

And such is the dilemma that no one seems to have an answer for. And the situation only gets worse when greed gets involved and "everyone wants their piece of the pie".

To achieve great things in this modern world we must make great sacrifices. The problem comes in when the wrong person wins or right person loses. Artists need to find a way to reclaim their art from the commodities dealers, but in a way that still allows some vestiges of our current entertainment structure to continue to exist.

[chrono]

These are good times to be an anime fan. DVD's have never been cheaper.

I stopped reading after this sentence because it's a flat out total lie, which frames the rest of the article in such a bias light that it must be disregarded on the whole.

One of THE main reasons that anime is dying in America is the simple "grow, grow, grow" ideal that capitalism has embraced and the natural sales limit that anime has always had. And the OTHER main reason is that localization company's, Japanese distribution copyright holders, and creators have not actively pursued the emerged Internet Fan Subber/Translator as nearly as actively as they could've. It's quite "the pit of self pity".

Soooo to all the people who are complaining about loses... "GOOGLE DO YOU USE IT, desu?"

[azrael]

I stopped reading after this sentence because it's a flat out total lie, which frames the rest of the article in such a bias light that it must be disregarded on the whole.

That's the whole point. The article is indirectly saying that the statement is a lie. That things aren't as rosy as the statement suggests.

[Chewie]

Forgive me if I repeat anything, the OP was long enough without reading both pages.

While I agree that something has to be done so we will continue to have anime available to us in any form and that the prices we have to pay here are ridiculous, I will also admit I am one of those who downloads copious amounts of anime on a weekly basis.

I have to point out that what I download airs on tv for "free". Any Tom, Dick or Kensei can DVR it in Japan the day it comes out. Same thing we can do with anything we watch here on any regular tv network. ABC, FOX, CBS etc. Where does the fine line between stealing and saving for later start to blur? If my buddy DVRs Family Guy and I watch it later because I missed it, am I stealing from FOX and Seth McFarlane because I didn't personally watch it on my tv at home? Same thing goes with Bleach. It airs in Japan. 2 days later I download it subbed and enjoy it. Am I stealing it or is torrenting it a different version of my buddy DVR'ing it?

It's a fine line between stealing and "watching later" depending on what it is you're downloading as far as I am concerned.

[Duke Togo]

But what happens when it does come out domestically?

If I like it, I buy it. No different than any US TV series or any movie I see in the theaters.

[chrono]

Where does the fine line between stealing and saving for later start to blur? If my buddy DVRs Family Guy and I watch it later because I missed it, am I stealing from FOX and Seth McFarlane because I didn't personally watch it on my tv at home? Same thing goes with Bleach. It airs in Japan. 2 days later I download it subbed and enjoy it. Am I stealing it or is torrenting it a different version of my buddy DVR'ing it?

It's a fine line between stealing and "watching later" depending on what it is you're downloading as far as I am concerned.

Illegal distribution laws have been in effect for decades and are fairly clean cut and are also quite often shown on the shows credits stating blatantly "NO distribution or re-distribution.". You also often get 2-3 of these warnings per bought movie or tv show and 1-2 times per showing on telecast.

The fact that you say that there actually IS a 'fine line' means that you're going out of your way to explain away any responsibility for your actions. It's exactly that type of attitude that the current 'Ethicless' fan-subbers/translators have.

"Business greed is baaaad! But personal greed is perfectly acceptable!!"

Duke, I'm pretty much the same way. But I don't download an entire series and then decide that I don't like it! If it doesn't knock my socks off in the first episode then I don't bother with it anymore.