The VF-5000 is pissing me off!

[l_e_m]

Hmm, not sure how I'm supposed to ignore the fuselage when it's the forward half and a good portion of the VF-5000 wing surface. Perhaps the actual wing itself looks somewhat similar, but overall I'm not seeing much in common with the X-32.

I thought you were looking for similarities in the wing and tail.

The VF-5000 has similar wing strakes, short, small tails, and a short-span notched, cropped wing just like the X-32. The other designs cited do not have all of those elements. Out of all the planes cited, the Drakken is the closest, except for the tail and the wing inlets.

I suppose we're looking at different things.

[David Hingtgen]

What's the date of the VF-5000? (as in Kawamori drawing it). Because the YF-22 has an entirely different forward fuselage, so K. couldn't have copied from that. And the final F-22 fuselage I think was too late for him to be influenced by it.

[Graham]

eugimon

Mig29/35!!!!!????? Sorry, I just don't see any resemblance with the VF-5000 at all.

David Hingtgen

IIRC, the first published lineart of the VF-5000 appeared in the TIAS Macross Plus OVA book in 1995. I'll have to check the pic when i get home, to see if Kawamori put a date on it as he sometimes does.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Just checked to be sure---the real F-22 wasn't revealed until April, 1997. Now, drawings/pics etc of what the final version would look like would have existed prior, but I doubt there'd be a 3 year lead of what it'd look like. (if he started working on it in 94 to be in a 95 book)

Maybe he was predicting the future again, like when Sukhoi copied the YF-19?

[Mr March]

There's no date on the first picture of the VF-5000B from the book This Is Animation Special Macross Plus. Publishing date of the book is 1995.

As for comparing the YF-22 and F-22, there is a difference, but I sure wouldn't call it entirely different within the context of this discussion of influences.

Regardless, I think YF-22 is the safe bet for an influence on the nose, canopy and forward fuselage of the VF-5000.

[sketchley]

It's only referred to as the VF-5000 in TIAS:M+.

SKMDW gives the following dates for the following versions:

97.05 for the VF-5000G.

97.10 for the VF-5000B

98.01 for the VF-5000T-G

98.06 for the transatmospheric Super Parts.

Given that the transformation sequence is for the VF-5000G, I'm going to assertain that even though the VF-5000 (at least the fighter mode) was brainstormed and thought out prior to publication on 1995.03.01, it wasn't finalized until 1997.05.

Making the design process of this VF somewhat similar to that of the VF-4. (Fighter mode published earlier, and battroid, gerwalk mode, extras, and transformation sequence finalized and published later.)

[eugimon]

eugimon

Mig29/35!!!!!????? Sorry, I just don't see any resemblance with the VF-5000 at all.

Graham

that's okay, Mr. March knows what I'm talking about, so I have some solace there. T_T

[David Hingtgen]

Trust me, the YF-22 and F-22 nose, nosecone, and canopy area are COMPLETELY different. They look fairly similar from above, but at the angle the VF-5000 drawings are at, they're like entirely different planes. The YF-22's nose from head-on, has a "vertical diamond" profile with slab sides. Nothing's concave, nothing tapers or curves.

Or even from above---look at the YF-22's nose. It's a triangle--the sides of the nose don't curve in as you move forward--it's just straight lines at an angle starting a bit ahead of the canopy front edge. It truly has a nose CONE. But the F-22's sides do curve, like 99% of fighter jets out there--it's ogival, kinda like a beehive.

3-view line art (especially just 1-view) can't show shapes well. Common problem in model planes---some company gets a perfect 3-view that's amazingly accurate, and makes a model using that as the only reference. And it'll look right from above, in front, and the side. But still looks really wrong at any other angle, because the drawings just didn't show important curves, cross-sections, etc.

[VF-7000 THUNDERHAWK]

So in the last week or more I've been coloring and writing away for the VF-5000 Star Mirage profiles. After dozens of colored pictures and several pages I decide it's finally time to sit down, collect material and build the first VF-5000B standard profile.

Then it hits me...

There doesn't appear to be a standard color scheme for the "B". I went ahead and completed the profile anyway, but I've got a weird Zolan-like color scheme currently sitting in place for the "B" variant. I've also colored the Macross Dynamite 7 "B" versions, the Macross Plus Video Game "B" colors, the VF-X2 Video Game "B" colors...but as far as I know none of these are the standard hull colors. Or, if one of those color schemes is the standard colors, I don't know which one it would be. Now, there are two color schemes for the VF-5000G version found on page 20 and 21 of Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works, but these are Zolan variants since the line art is the "G" variant with all the Zola insignia.

Current color variations:

So this is what I'm currently working with, but what does the UN Spacy mass production version of the VF-5000B look like? Anyone know?

HI, I took a look at your Macross Mecha Manual and I'm very impressed with all the art work and VF mecha technical information. Looking forward to seeing the tech info on the VF-5000, VF-19, VF-22, VA-3 Invader, VF-9 Cutlass, VF-14 Hunter in your manual as well. Nice Work!!!

[Vic Mancini]

Trust me, the YF-22 and F-22 nose, nosecone, and canopy area are COMPLETELY different.

You're exaggerating. They may be "completely different" to someone extremely knowledgeable with their designs, but to a casual observer?...come on. If you showed a photograph of a YF-22 to an average person on the street who knew at least a little bit about airplanes (enough to identify popular fighter jets), they'd identify it as a F-22 Raptor immediately and they would think nothing of it being an earlier experimental version. If they looked like "entirely different planes" then it would be difficult to mistake one for the other. The F-16 and F-18 are entirely different planes....The YF-22 and F-22 are like 97% identical unless you know them like the back of your hand or you are looking at them side by side.

The VF-5000 has similarities to both the F-22 and YF-22. If Kawamori wasn't inspired by the 22, and the similarities we see were purely coincidental, I'd be shocked.

[David Hingtgen]

We're specifically talking about the nose and forward fuselage, which are amazingly similar between the VF-5000 and F-22, and whether Kawamori was influenced by it, or it was just coincidence. The date the F-22 came out vs the date of the VF-5000 is thus important.

The YF-22 isn't important, as its nose and forward fuselage are quite different from the F-22, and its nose is no more similar to the VF-5000 than the Rafale's nose is. Yes, the YF-22 and F-22 are very similar. But the noses are not, and that's the part being discussed as being very similar between the F-22 and VF-5000.

And you quoted me in the exact point I'm making--I clearly stated the NOSE, NOSECONE, and CANOPY AREA are completely different. Did I say the planes were completely different? No, I said the NOSE, NOSECONE, and CANOPY were completely different. And they are. Which is the part of the VF-5000 we're talking about. Much like the Super Hornet and Legacy Hornet have completely different airbrakes, while being overall very similar-looking planes with many similar parts.

[Vic Mancini]

We're specifically talking about the nose and forward fuselage, which are amazingly similar between the VF-5000 and F-22, and whether Kawamori was influenced by it, or it was just coincidence. The date the F-22 came out vs the date of the VF-5000 is thus important.

The YF-22 isn't important, as its nose and forward fuselage are quite different from the F-22, and its nose is no more similar to the VF-5000 than the Rafale's nose is. Yes, the YF-22 and F-22 are very similar. But the noses are not, and that's the part being discussed as being very similar between the F-22 and VF-5000.

Well, actually I was the one who brought up the similarity between the Raptor and Star Mirage, and I believe I said the entire front half of the plane was reminiscent of the Raptor. I never mentioned "nosecone and canopy" only/specifically.

I still maintain that if you showed a regular person on the street a photograph of the YF-22, and then showed them a photo of the F-22A, (I'm talking about the canopy/forward fuselage area/front half of the aircraft), nobody would even notice the difference unless they held the pictures side by side and studied them carefully for subtle differences.

I'm actually looking at two pictures side by side as I type this, and I don't even notice a difference in the canopies at all. Both canopies look like the VF-5000, and so does the entire forward fuselage with the exception of a pointier nose on the YF-22. I must be on crazy pills, because I don't see these glaring differences you're talking about. They both look like the 5000 to me. *shrugs shoulders*

[Mr March]

sketchley

The perpetual work-in-progress is standard MO for Kawamori when working on designs that need not be finalized at the time he creates them. Sometimes it makes it difficult to place the craft in a specific category for my website. Since the VF-5000 first appeared in the TIAS Macross Plus book, I've decided to place it in the Macross Plus section. Kinda works too since the color scheme is from the Macross Plus game as well. And of course, the VF-5000 is a 2020's era craft, so it makes sense to kinda stuff it in there since the Macross Plus history encompases everything from Flashback 2012 to 2040.

eugimon

Aww, thanks. Sometimes it's more outside shapes that catches the eye rather than the fine details that may not be relevant. Silhouettes sell a lot of the shape of any aircraft.

David Hingtgen

Well, I'm not going to get into a debate over minutiae between the YF-22 and the F-22. What I will do is try to explain where I'm coming from and hope that smooths understanding. Vic Mancini is correct that I was the one who used the terms nosecone/canopy/forward fuselage; he used the terms "forward half." Regardless, I was only trying to be more specific because "forward half" is rather vague and such a description would also include the forward ventral nacelle intakes which are nothing like the YF-22/F-22. Now, I'm sure there are tapers more pronounced on the F-22 and subtle variations in shape/size/proportion from the YF-22. In fact, I know there are from looking at several more pictures and reading detailed descriptions on fighter-planes and the wiki. As I indicated, I've not studied the VF-5000 in any lengthy detail until I started coloring.

However, as I've stated these differences seem to have little bearing within the context of the YF-22 as an obvious influence on the VF-5000. The nosecone, forward fuselage and canopy seems very similar to the VF-500 to me. Is the VF-5000 more YF-22 than it is F-22 or vice versa? Did Kawamori have another bout where he actually extrapolated the minor changes in the YF-22 BEFORE the F-22 was even publically seen? Go ahead and compare! Point being, there is enough obvious similarity to the layman such as myself that allows me to recognize the strong design influence/lineage between the YF-22/F-22 and the VF-5000 despite a few tapers and changes of degree.

Is this assumption correct with absolute certainty? I don't know. Perhaps there is other aircraft influence more relevant to the VF-5000. But to my mind, Vic Mancini's theory seems to make the most sense compared to all the examples presented thus far. Well, that's about as clear as I can get and I hope it helps explain any apparent disagreement that might have arisen from the original discussion.

VF-7000 THUNDERHAWK

Well thank you very much for the praise. The art work is all Kawamori and Miyatake, so make sure to praise them. I just do the coloring The VA-3 Invader (plus all variants) the VF-5000 (plus all variants, the VF-19 (plus all variants), the VF-22 (plus all variants) and the VF-14 will all appear in the next update. The VF-3000 and VF-9 Cutlass probably won't make it in, but I'll have to see. I bounce around a lot when building profiles, so whatever strikes me at the moment may mean they maybe included. Keep visiting and find out!

Edited November 20, 2007 by Mr March

[sketchley]

Ah... I remembered one more variation. I'm not sure how canon official it is considered... nevertheless, it's a pretty groovy colour scheme. It's the one that appears near the end of the all CG, "Macross 3DVFX" that was released on the 20th Anniversary DVD. As I saw that on U-tube in the past two or three days, it's available there too, if one doesn't have the DVD.

[Sumdumgai]

Nice, sketchley, I always forget about Macross 3DVFX.

[David Hingtgen]

Mr March---my opinion would be that the VF-5000's nose cone, and "forward fuselage surrouding the canopy" is nigh-identical to the F-22's, but really doesn't match the YF-22 much---it is only slightly closer to the YF-22 than "any random fighter jet". But since Kawamori apparently drew the VF-5000 before the F-22's nose design was really known, he couldn't have copied it---so it's just coincidence. IMHO. And if he based if off the YF-22's nose (which was well-known at the time)---he wouldn't have gotten the shape he did, as it is only superficially similar. It is possible he tried to do a "final version of the YF-22 nose", heavily revising it---and ended up coming up with almost exactly with what the F-22's designers did.

[Sumdumgai]

The F-22 designers were Macross fans and liked the VF-5000.

[Mr March]

sketchley

I'll take a look. Thanks.

David Hingtgen

Given the facts, that theory makes sense. I think the fact that the VF-5000 nose looks more like the YF-22 than any random fighter jet is pretty much my opinion, despite the obvious deviations already mentioned. As for the apparent differences between the YF-22 nose and the VF-5000, I'd say its both coincidence and Kawamori's own style. The tapered nose was something he explored in many of the 90's era Macross designs and can be seen not just on the VF-5000, but also the YF-19 and the YF-21.

sumdumgai

A cunning, international conspiracy! The US secretly conducts espionage to pry the greatest aeronautical designs from anime artists!

[Zinjo]

sumdumgai

A cunning, international conspiracy! The US secretly conducts espionage to pry the greatest aeronautical designs from anime artists!

Well now that you know, you MUST die as a matter of national security...

[Mr March]

Aha! I KNEW those suspicious-looking people were following me on the way to work today!