AppleSeed Sucks

[promethuem5]

So, the only exposure I've ever had until tonight to AppleSeed is the domestic release graphic novel version which uses screenshots from the film to make a terrible graphic novel. After seeing previews of new AppleSeed stuff, I decided to finally see the actual fil to figure out if this was any good and what the fuss is all about.

So, after watching the movie and mulling it over, I still can't figure it out... how is a graphically mediocre film with a total train-wreck of a plot so popular and loved? Am I missing something here... the action is pretty much all great, and the CGI stuff looks pretty fantastic, but the over-cell-shaded 2D animation is nauseating to watch... barring the visuals, how can anyone actually like plot? With no setup or anything at the beginning of the film, pretty much everything that happens feels like it was pulled out of some writer's butt to fill another scene... Briareos and the mercenaries and Global War I can deal with... some of the Bio-roid babble is tolerable.. but then it's like 'oh yeah, and this guy JUST HAPPENS to be related to Deunenan.. and so does she, and then turns out that's not what that was, and blah blah... PS, some kind of betrayal double blind backstab nonsense... who's even watching for plot at this point anywyas?... THEN one half the government you thought was good isn't, and some other kind of nonsense... then Briareos, the ROBOT, COUGHS when he bites it the first time... and makes some truly terrible line about feeling pain but still a robot or something... just utter garbage... but then Bri happens to have given Deunan the secret to EVERYTHING by accident as a keepsake from her father who EVERY OTHER PERSON in the film either fought alongside or was created by or something... and then BATTLE PLATFORMS pop out of the ground like they've been there the whole time to do something that everyone in the film lies about for more backstabbing silliness...

EDIT: I forgot the part where, the first time Deunan really talks to Bri after she ruins the training squad, there's this semi-emotional character development bit, but then D's just like 'And what's AppleSeed!?' out of nowhere... with no mention of the term at all before that in the film... furthering my theory that the film is mostly a series of decent action scenes wtih a 'make sh*t up as we go along' plot.

Sorry for the rant, but I really would like to open a dialogue here where you AppleSeed fans tell me what I don't get about the movie and how it's amazing and I'm dumb. Seriously, I want to hear how this is a good film.

Me, I'm going back to finishing VOTOMS...

Edited November 11, 2007 by promethuem5

[sabretooth]

that is why you mute it.

purdy mecha, crap everything else. more of an art book that wants to be a movie

thats just me though

[EXO]

stick to the oribinal Shirow Manga... I never understand why they just don't use shirow's designs... The only one that ever got it right was the Black Magic M-66 OVA.

[Sumdumgai]

New Dominion Tank Police wasn't that bad on the character designs, and I agree that Black Magic M-66 did a great job. I couldn't bring myself to watch Appleseed, and that new Tank Police thing... well I couldn't bring myself to watch another episode after the first one.

[Beltane70]

The Appleseed movie is missing many of the elements from the original manga, which is tons better than the movie.

Also, Briareos is not a robot, he's a cyborg, hence the reason for the cough. While most of Bri is artificial, he retains most of his original internal organs.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

I remember watching Dom tank police and i quite enjoyed it! Can't remember it much, but wouldn't mind watching it again.

Edited November 11, 2007 by ruskiiVFaussie

[yellowlightman]

Appleseed manga = awesome.

Appleseed OVA = awful

Appleseed movie = absolute crap

[Sumdumgai]

Wow, you thought the movie was worse than that god awful ova? Dang, I'm not going to give it a chance out of pity even then.

[yellowlightman]

Wow, you thought the movie was worse than that god awful ova? Dang, I'm not going to give it a chance out of pity even then.

Well, I when viewed with it's contemporaries the OVA is pretty average for a late OVA adaption of a manga. It's hard to successfully compress a long running comic into a 45 minute OVA, and while it wasn't great or remotely as good as the source material, it wasn't horrible.

The Movie was though. Unnecessary story changes that farted with Deunan and Briaeos' relationship, as well as a REALLY contrived plot twist made it pretty made it really awful in my book.

[Mowe]

It is amazing that Shirow's works are so poorly represented on screens. Apart from GITS, others were pure disasters. I don't have high hope with the up-coming Appleseed movie, it looks like another CG orgy...

Edited November 11, 2007 by Mowe

[Jeremy007]

yeah, the new appleseed movie looks very Blah to me. I enjoyed the original manga. People have really high hopes for the new movie because its Shirow...i want it to be good, but i just dont think it will be the same calibur of Black Magic M-66 or GITS

[kensei]

I just took a look at a couple of videos in Youtube. Animation looks gorgeous, but dunno about the story if that's what you say it is about.....

Pity, it was on my to watch list.

[bsu legato]

I'll admit that the old OVA is somewhat of a guilty pleasure for me. It's certainly an oversimplification of the manga, and painfully dated in some respects (that music is horrible) but there's still just something about it that makes me pull it off the shelf every once in a while. Maybe it's just some lingering excitement from 20 years ago at seeing those characters and events animated in the first place.

[CoryHolmes]

It is amazing that Shirow's works are so poorly represented on screens. Apart from GITS, others were pure disasters. I don't have high hope with the up-coming Appleseed movie, it looks like another CG orgy...

I don't even rate GITS that high up the list. The Stand Alone Complex series' are great, but I wholly diislike the first movie and can't bring myself to watch the second. To me, GITS is over-hyped and purile.

[the white drew carey]

Wow, prometheum5, you're REALLY gunning for a fight here!

Of course, I don't mean that because of your dislike of Appleseed. You're more than entitled to your opinion which you support with specific reasons. Although I must mention that some of the points you make seem more to be based on ignorance since you obviously didn't watch the same movie. I'm not going to try defending it because, based on the rant of your post, nothing anyone can say is going to change your mind on that point.

But why are you calling people out to say you're dumb? The only dumb thing you did was call people out as if you're looking for a fight in the first place.

Personally, I enjoyed the film. Although, like most Appleseed fans, I truly wish it was more like the manga, but for a condensed version... I thought it wasn't too bad.

As for the CGI and cel-shaded characters? That's purely a matter of taste, one that either worked fabulously for the film-makers or stabbed them in the foot (there seems to be no middle ground amongst viewers).

Several things to note that may clear some stuff up for you:

-Briareos IS human. Just highly cyberneticised. He is not a robot. IIRC, most of his internal organs still exist, but are assisted by machinery.

-The platforms are there all along. You must have missed it in the beginning when they are flying into Olympus and Briareos gets to play the cabbage-head by having Hitomi casually mention that they will be shot out of the sky if they don't pass IFF.

- I don't think its a case of "make sh!t up as we go along" as much as it is "try to condense four graphic novels of well thought-out plot into two hours of movie." Hence, they made changes, compressed the story and, in some places, simply made new stuff up. Major elements from the movie do show up in the manga, but they happen over time.

Edited November 11, 2007 by the white drew carey

[drifand]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, yellowlightman said it all. The plot is not necessarily any clearer in the manga but at least it makes sense for specific arcs. AND the small-unit action as depicted by Shirow (before he descended into 3D amateur nite) was top-notch.

It seems every production house that tackles a fan-favorite property insists on 'updating' the premise/plot/design, either for the sake of an unfamiliar audience, or the creative team's ego. Yeah, no one likes to 'trace' over an older design and still put his or her name to it. That's why I didn't mind too much Appleseed's 'new' character designs; but when it came to the plot... er... they really didn't manage to clarify it at all. And so beyond a couple of still-recognizable visual cues, I felt totally disconnected from the current Appleseed 'franchise'.

[mikeszekely]

So, the only exposure I've ever had until tonight to AppleSeed is the domestic release graphic novel version which uses screenshots from the film to make a terrible graphic novel. After seeing previews of new AppleSeed stuff, I decided to finally see the actual fil to figure out if this was any good and what the fuss is all about.

So, after watching the movie and mulling it over, I still can't figure it out... how is a graphically mediocre film with a total train-wreck of a plot so popular and loved? Am I missing something here... the action is pretty much all great, and the CGI stuff looks pretty fantastic, but the over-cell-shaded 2D animation is nauseating to watch... barring the visuals, how can anyone actually like plot? With no setup or anything at the beginning of the film, pretty much everything that happens feels like it was pulled out of some writer's butt to fill another scene... Briareos and the mercenaries and Global War I can deal with... some of the Bio-roid babble is tolerable.. but then it's like 'oh yeah, and this guy JUST HAPPENS to be related to Deunenan.. and so does she, and then turns out that's not what that was, and blah blah... PS, some kind of betrayal double blind backstab nonsense... who's even watching for plot at this point anywyas?... THEN one half the government you thought was good isn't, and some other kind of nonsense... then Briareos, the ROBOT, COUGHS when he bites it the first time... and makes some truly terrible line about feeling pain but still a robot or something... just utter garbage... but then Bri happens to have given Deunan the secret to EVERYTHING by accident as a keepsake from her father who EVERY OTHER PERSON in the film either fought alongside or was created by or something... and then BATTLE PLATFORMS pop out of the ground like they've been there the whole time to do something that everyone in the film lies about for more backstabbing silliness...

EDIT: I forgot the part where, the first time Deunan really talks to Bri after she ruins the training squad, there's this semi-emotional character development bit, but then D's just like 'And what's AppleSeed!?' out of nowhere... with no mention of the term at all before that in the film... furthering my theory that the film is mostly a series of decent action scenes wtih a 'make sh*t up as we go along' plot.

Sorry for the rant, but I really would like to open a dialogue here where you AppleSeed fans tell me what I don't get about the movie and how it's amazing and I'm dumb. Seriously, I want to hear how this is a good film.

Me, I'm going back to finishing VOTOMS...

You've actually summed up my feelings on Akira and Ghost In the Shell as well. I'd thrown X/1999 in there too, but at least that was pretty.

[Warmaker]

Appleseed manga = awesome.

Appleseed OVA = awful

Appleseed movie = absolute crap

QFT big time. The US domestic release of Appleseed back in the early 90s were the very first manga I ever bought and it was awesome stuff.

I didn't think too much of the old OVA. The movie? I didn't feel too comfortable with it. Just from the gut feeling I had alone. Sure enough, I was disappointed.

As for GITS, I'm not too fond of the movies and to me they were overrated. Keep in mind I absolutely adored the original GITS manga also. I haven't checked the series yet though.

My problem with the GITS & Appleseed OVAs / Movies were that they never felt anything like the manga. From the art style to the overall feel of the story. There's a certain way M.Shirow makes his characters look, and I never saw that from the OVAs / Movies. That's a big turnoff for me, since I do love his artwork.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Warmaker

[promethuem5]

But why are you calling people out to say you're dumb? The only dumb thing you did was call people out as if you're looking for a fight in the first place.

Let me start by saying that was more of an expression statement then literal... I was expecting/hoping for someone who truly loves the film to come on here and tell me why it's a great movie and why I couldn't possibly have not liked it. Seriously, I was hoping to hear the absolute extreme other side of the fence bc/ I WANT to know how people liked the film.

Next up... apparently my ignorance of the source material is to blame for my problems with many of the small things in the film... that's legitimate and understandable, but still, if I couldn't get the proper experience out of the film bc/ I've never read the manga, what does that say about the film?

I'll chime in about GTIS here as well, seeing as it seems impossible to mention a Shirow work without bringing the other works in at least a little bit... I find the original GTIS movie entertaining and fun, even if it goes a little over my head... I just downloaded Stand-Alone Complex, the SAC Film, and the second GTIS film and will watch those at some point. I've also read the big long Dark Horse (I think?) published manga and found it entertaining, but still tough to fully grasp. The second book, however, GTIS 2 manga, which has all new characters and the same CGI-abortion artwork style as stuff like AppleSeed, and I've tried desperately to read it twice now bc/ it was expensive, but I just cannot finish it. I'm a massive fan of Evangelion, and I sitll can't wrap my head around all the psychobabble of the later Shirow stuff...

[Mr March]

Never cared for the first Appleseed anime and haven't watched the new one. I've heard nothing but derision for this new film, but I think I would probably have seen it already if I hadn't seen and disliked the first OVA. I think of the Appleseed books as kind of a prototype for GITS. I'd probably give them another shot if I weren't collecting other manga right now. Appleseed has always just been one of those low-priority manga/anime that I only rarely get around to.

As for GITS, there's so much hatred here on MW for anything that isn't SAC I've pretty much stopped talking about the films. For what it's worth, IMO the first film succeeded brilliantly in the departure from the source material, something that probably can't be said about the Appleseed animes.

[Sumdumgai]

I feel that the GITS movie succeeded in taking the manga and turning it into a serious-toned movie without any humor or light-heartedness, much like the first series Rurouni Kenshin OVA. In that regard I thought it was very well done, and the only thing it really lacked were the fuchikomas, even if they were to be humorless as well.

I never got around to watching the second GITS movie. The lack of good reviews doesn't help.

As with Mr. March, Appleseed has been consistently a low priority series for me.

[chrono]

If I remember correctly Appleseed was basically the test run for the GITS story and other than watching/reading them for the mecha you are bound to be bored, disappointed, or just rolling your eyes at some of the material in them. Both were pretty much Shirow's version of Hill Street Blue and Cagney & Lacey anyways. So if you don't like cop drama's then avoid them like the plague!

"Read/watch" Shirow's material for the designs and not the babble of 'Super-Cops/PowerRangers' and the world is a much better place.

Or just google images of "Appleseed" & "GITS" and save yourself the trouble, because I'm sure that there are torrents out there for the art books and such.

[yellowlightman]

If I remember correctly Appleseed was basically the test run for the GITS story

No.

[promethuem5]

I'm pretty sure GTIS came out way before the AppleSeed film...

[chrono]

No.

Fabulous expounding on the subject material!!!

------

I did clarify 'test-run', because such a HUGH amount of similar material and concepts were shared between the two. GITS was released after Appleseed anyways, and during it's run you could clearly see that Shirow was firming up his concepts that would lead to GITS. Also doesn't help that when AppleSEED ended Shirow immediately started on GITS the next month.

- Super Cops

- Healthy female lead character with a male second.

- High amounts of cyborg enhancement

- Specially trained 'police' divisions designed to specifically handle terrorists

- Political movements between nations that got talked about quite heavily

- Mecha out the arse

- And seriously heavy amounts of debate on the topic of Humanism and what defines the term "Humanity"

- A 'PuppetMaster' behind each scheme.

Edited November 12, 2007 by chrono

[mpchi]

I do think that most of Appleseed's fame are from its original manga, not so much from the anime or the recent movie. I don't think a lot of people regards the movie as a very good film at all. Like most of you already said, great detailed action, odd render, and no story at all. I was interested in watching it, but didn't really like it much after I watched it.

[sketchley]

Appleseed's CG animation is the way of the future. Heck - Macross is following a similar direction, just not diving 100% into it at once. I think CG animation is a "just get over it" thing.

I thought the Appleseed movie was great. Mind you, I saw it without subtitles, and not grasping the story completely (definitely not everyday colloqual Japanese in stretches of that movie!) I loved the animation, music, sound effects. The character designs... I was a little put off at first, but they've grown on me, and I feel that they capture the look and feel of the originals. The greatest parts of the movie, IMHO, are the action sequences. Finally, someone gave the landmates the love they deserve! And boy, do they look great in action.

Later, I did see a subtitled version of the movie, and I was let down quite a bit. It's not so much surprising that the story is convoluted, but that they changed parts of it so drastically from the original. All well, a 2 hour movie can't be the same as a 27 chapter manga. Here's hoping that the new Appleseed movie will continue the story that Shirow Masamune abandoned when he stopped pening Appleseed and switched to Dominion Tank Police C1 back in '93.

About Ghost in the Shell... well none of the animations match the original manga, as they've seperated the two themes of the story. The 2 movies are all about the metaphysical aspects, whereas the 2 TV series and 3rd movie are all about the special forces and techno-socialogical aspects. That's not to say that the two animated versions haven't retained some of the details or aspects of the other, but the thematic presentations are focused differently. Personally, I like the movie version, perhaps slightly more than the SAC version, as it's more science fiction; whereas the SAC version is more sci-fi.

Sadly, sci-fi is the route that the Appleseed movie took, and it lost the science fiction aspect of the manga...

Lastly, the music in the Appleseed OVA is funky! It's classic cheese from the '80's.

[Mislovrit]

stick to the oribinal Shirow Manga... I never understand why they just don't use shirow's designs... The only one that ever got it right was the Black Magic M-66 OVA.

Black Magic M-66 OVA and GitS: SAC worked well given Shirow himself was involved in their production, moreso with M-66.

[sketchley]

Fabulous expounding on the subject material!!!

------

I did clarify 'test-run', because such a HUGH amount of similar material and concepts were shared between the two. GITS was released after Appleseed anyways, and during it's run you could clearly see that Shirow was firming up his concepts that would lead to GITS. Also doesn't help that when AppleSEED ended Shirow immediately started on GITS the next month.

- Super Cops

- Healthy female lead character with a male second.

- High amounts of cyborg enhancement

- Specially trained 'police' divisions designed to specifically handle terrorists

- Political movements between nations that got talked about quite heavily

- Mecha out the arse

- And seriously heavy amounts of debate on the topic of Humanism and what defines the term "Humanity"

- A 'PuppetMaster' behind each scheme.

I believe it's because those themes are constant with all of Shirow Masamune's works.

Black Magic: check all.

Dominion: check all except the cyborg (though there are artificially created humans, also present in Appleseed, and no puppet master.) The debate on humanity is focused on enviromental impact this time.

Orion: check all except cyborg (though there are magically enhanced humans, as well as mythological creatures.) The debate on humanity is focused on humanity's inherent good and evil.

The Puppetmaster concept, or at least a person behind the scenes controlling everything, isn't something new to Japanese fiction. In fact, it's derigeur when it comes to politics and history. The twist that Masamune Shirow added with GitS, is that the Puppetmaster originally was originally a tool of another puppet master, and is the first naturally born AI.

In the end, I see Appleseed as a meditation on the nature of humans, and whether our continued existence will destroy all life on Earth, and GitS as a meditation on life, and individuality in a society that is becoming increasingly monocultural and populated by people consisting of the same memes - taken to the extreme of being able to inhabit the same bodies.

EDIT: changed monsters to mythological creatures; a more accurate meaning.

Edited November 12, 2007 by sketchley

[promethuem5]

I'm not going to argue with anyone who says the Landmate action scenes weren't amazing... I really really want to make a landmate kit or two now... it's such a great design. My problem with the animation is all the 2D stuff looking rather sickening with gross colors and awkward shading and such... too much post-processing and extra touch-ups... give me some great hand-drawn and colored characters any day. There's a difference between using the modern techniques and bastardizing the modern techniques into something gawd-awful...

[sketchley]

The good news is that the next Appleseed movie has better character designs. I can't say too much, because my memory has faded from when I saw the preview and related images, however, I was impressed at the time, and felt that they were an improvement.

[promethuem5]

The teaser image did look solid, but how the characters are done in action is a different beast altogether...

[Sebastian]

What about the EX Machina movie?

Figures look damn sweet. Expensive but a must have IMO/

And the CG film was Bad, but mostly because they made a series into a 90 mintues film.. no way it can be done right.

[Radd]

Appleseed's CG animation is the way of the future. Heck - Macross is following a similar direction, just not diving 100% into it at once. I think CG animation is a "just get over it" thing.

I think that statement misses the point. The problem usually isn't CG animation, but bad CG.

I also suspect you may be a bit off base with that "way of the future" comment, but I'm not entirely certain how you mean? Of course we'll continue to see CG animation, though I imagine it's kinda peaked and we're due for a resurgence of 2D animation, in addition to more movies/tv shows making better use of both mediums to compliment and enhance each other. Not to mention, computer driven 2D animation, though that is also not so much "the way of the future" as "they way things are now and will likely continue to be until something better comes along....in the future."

[Mr March]

I don't think CG is so much a mass cognitive change in the anime industry as much as it is an improved method for animating that is being embraced. If a better tool exists, it will be used. Computer generated images enable artists to animate highly complex and detailed objects that would be costly and prohibitive to animate in traditional 2D drawn animation. For an industry that is always under tight budgets and limitations, CG art is a way to overcome a lot of the frame limitations of labor intensive 2D art and create ever more fluid animation with a much higher level of detail.

I love CG in anime, but my only concern so far has been aesthetic. I'm hoping more japanese artists will create 3D aesthetics in CG anime the way they did with 2D anime. For me personally, it's ultimately that style and artistry in the form and compostion of the production that is most attractive about any visual medium, whether it's 2D, 3D or live action.