VA-14

[Zinjo]

To add fuel to the "it's not the VF-4" side:

Egan Loo has dropped a hint or two that Kawamori San doesn't hold the VF-4 in that high a regard. I may be reading too much into what could have been a misphrased sentence. Nevertheless, given the lack of the VF-4's appearance overall in Macross...

I've heard that too.

He considered it a "one off". A one time cool fighter he designed for FB2012, that he never initially intended to be shown as a battroid.

[mikeszekely]

EDIT: Double post. Sorry.

Edited October 19, 2007 by mikeszekely

[mikeszekely]

To me it looks like the stabilizers are angled in too far to be a VF-4. The VF-4's vertical stabilizers don't cant in at such a steep angle. I figure that the thing behind the cockpit could be the stabilizer due to the perspective being weird. It may not necessarily be a VF-14, but I'm fairly certain it's not the VF-4. Besides it seems too large.

I'd be more inclined to argue the weird perspective to justify the angle of the stabilizers than pretend the thing behind the cockpit isn't a canard. Draw a line continuing the angle, and you'll see it can't possibly be connected to the starboard nacelle. The starboard canard and nacelle would be obscured by Yang.

The craft under the helmet has no canards

I've explained that it does. But here's a the pic again cropped down, with a white line to show what I'm talking about, and I drew in red where the rest of the plane should be.

no ventral rear stabilizers, no dorsal cannons on the forward nacelles, no dorsal/ventral missile recesses,

Considering that it's mostly a black blob, I don't expect you would see such fine detail. The port ventral stabilizer would blend into whatever's behind it, and the starboard one, due to the weird perspective, could be obscured by landing gear. The cannons are the only thing that aren't easily explained, but considering the nature of New Edwards, it could be a trainer without the cannons, or a variant where the cannons aren't exposed.

it has what looks like a UNS kite on the outer dorsal nacelle that the VF-4 does not have and to state the obvious, it's colored black

I'm sure not every VF-4 was painted the same as the one in Flashback. There's no reason a black VF-4 with the UNS kite painted on the nacelle couldn't exist.

And besides, if it was a VF-4, Kawamori wouldn't have declared the craft as unidentified

Without his exact quote, do we know he meant that every one of those aircraft were ones we've never seen before? Or that only some were? Or that, by unidentified, the animators were told to throw in some random planes, and that they could very well have added a poorly drawn VF-4, and that Kawamori wasn't going to bother to identify it as such?

Egan Loo has dropped a hint or two that Kawamori San doesn't hold the VF-4 in that high a regard.

Doesn't matter much how Kawamori feels about the VF-4. He wasn't an animator, and he didn't draw that frame.

Edited October 19, 2007 by mikeszekely

[sketchley]

There's an interview with Kawamori-san where he said that the studio that produced the animation for Macross Plus was chosen specifically because of their attention to detail. Whereas the studio that animated Macross 7 was chosen for their ability to deliver on time, despite knowning that they sometimes lost or made errors with the details.

Yes, he didn't draw that frame, but animators don't do whatever they want. They get storyboards from the director. The question you should be asking is how much input Kawamori-san had with the storyboarding of that scene.

[Mr March]

I'd be more inclined to argue the weird perspective to justify the angle of the stabilizers than pretend the thing behind the cockpit isn't a canard.

Oh, you're definitely more inclined to argue Keeping in mind my original post was just my opinion...

The starboard engine nacelle clearly has no VF-4-style ventral stabilizer nor port dorsal stabilizer. As for the middle "fin", it's likely just that (or a dorsal airbrake). It's not large enough to be a VF-4 canard, not in the right place to be a VF-4 canard and not the right size nor the proper angle for a VF-4 canard. VF-4 FRONT Schematic case in point. The dorsal/ventral stabilizers on the VF-4 are nearly straight up and down and would be very prominent under the black aircraft, if it were a VF-4 which it is not, IMO. There are no obscured details or "black blob" problems with those forward engine nacelles. The details do not obscure that it is a smooth cone shape with no open ports on top for VF-4 cannons nor protrusions for missiles. In fact, a clear VF-14-style "ring" can be seen on the forward nacelle. Kawamori's statement stands and any attempt to diminish it only makes the statement utterly meaningless in any context. That's not unifying evidence to determine what the black aricraft is; that is dismissing evidence that doesn't serve a theory...the VF-4 theory. Same thing goes with implying the animators are clueless or the aircraft is a poorly drawn <insert aircraft here>. That's not clarifying, that's obscuring. Finally, yes there is reason to believe a black VF-4 doesn't exist; because it doesn't! But as luck would have it, a black VF-14 does exist. Ergo, more likely VF-14 than VF-4.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Mr March

[Sumdumgai]

Or somebody got cute and put bunny ears behind the cockpit on the VF-14.

It could be some test plane for VF-14 upgrades, or was maybe an alternate model of VF-14 with canards. Like how the VF-X-11 had a plane with canards (that was endorsed by test pilot Miria, and chosen), and a plane without. Huh, the VF-11 without canards must have looked weird.

[Zinjo]

There's an interview with Kawamori-san where he said that the studio that produced the animation for Macross Plus was chosen specifically because of their attention to detail. Whereas the studio that animated Macross 7 was chosen for their ability to deliver on time, despite knowning that they sometimes lost or made errors with the details.

Yes, he didn't draw that frame, but animators don't do whatever they want. They get storyboards from the director. The question you should be asking is how much input Kawamori-san had with the storyboarding of that scene.

Kawamori was the Director of Mac Plus thus, to further Sketchley's position, had the final say in what was animated, not the animator.

If he choose to put a VF-4 there then that's what was done, if it was to be another aircraft, then that was done.

Pretty basic...

[Zinjo]

Or somebody got cute and put bunny ears behind the cockpit on the VF-14.

It could be some test plane for VF-14 upgrades, or was maybe an alternate model of VF-14 with canards. Like how the VF-X-11 had a plane with canards (that was endorsed by test pilot Miria, and chosen), and a plane without. Huh, the VF-11 without canards must have looked weird.

Canada Goose anyone.....

[chrono]

Not a VF-4.

1. Canopy size. The 4 has a canopy nearly 3 times the size of the 14's.

2. Distance between engine nacelles. The 4 has a small engine distance. The 14 has a much wider distance. (This is based off of the canopy size.)

3. Lack of large canards. The concept work is clearly defined in this area so the 'odd VP' doesn't wash because the VP is nearly head on.

4. Lack of canard shadows. And since the canards don't fold up, but down the lack of these shadows tells that there are no canards.

5. The thickness & short-ish shadow of the planes nose and neck. These would be much thinner and longer that what it appears to be. Right now it hints at the 14's shape. Furthermore there looks to be a wideness to the cockpit area.

6. The lack of squared off shadows from the engine nacelles, which would indicate a 4. But sadly are bullet pointed like the 14's

7. The long, deep, and sharply angled wing shadow that heavily implies the 14 and not a long shallow shadow that would be cat for a 4's.

8. The tail fins are curved like the 14's and not straight like the 4's.

[VF5SS]

I don't even think it's meant to be a VA-14. I believe it's just a generic Macross-y version of the SR-71 (like more than the VA-14). You can even see a little drone thing next to that the SR-71 had.

[mikeszekely]

I'm not arguing that it IS a VF-4, I'm arguing that it looks like it COULD BE, but a poorly drawn one.

I don't really see any resemblance to a VF-14 as it officially looks (M3). But, I do agree with Mr. March that the nacelle is pretty close to the VA-14/pre-M3 VF-14, but the cockpit doesn't match. And Chrono, while I agree that the canard is much too small for a VF-4's, it's still obviously a canard. If it was a poorly drawn VF-4, it would still be drawn better than if that was supposed to be a stabilizer.

Kawamori was the Director of Mac Plus thus, to further Sketchley's position, had the final say in what was animated, not the animator.

If he choose to put a VF-4 there then that's what was done, if it was to be another aircraft, then that was done.

Pretty basic...

Yes... because I'm sure Kawamori told the animators exactly how to draw each one of those background planes instead of giving instructions along the lines of "Fill the background with some random planes."

To put Kawamori's quote in another light, if that'll make Mr. March happy, the aircraft in the background are probably unidentified less because Kawamori decided what each one should be but still after how many years isn't ready to divulge what they are, and more because they were just random background and not worth identifying. They might not even be variable fighters, but x-planes, testbeds, and proof of concepts.

Finally, yes there is reason to believe a black VF-4 doesn't exist; because it doesn't!

Mr March, I respect the hell out of you, and I do enjoy your website and the work you're putting into it. But that's still an absurd statement. The Compendium says that 8425 VF-4s were produced; it doesn't say that none of them were black. The only reason to say that a black VF-4 doesn't exist is because none have been seen in any canon production; but we certainly haven't seen 8425 VF-4s in canon productions. Arguing that a black VF-4 doesn't exist because you didn't see one is like arguing that Hikaru doesn't poop because you never saw him on the john.

[Sumdumgai]

The plane in the pic doesn't look like a Macross M3 VF-14, but like a M7+ VF-14. In particular the cockpit looks like the one from the M7+ Spiritia Dreaming episode. I'd put up a screenshot, but I forgot what button combination it was to screen-cap it. The M3 VF-14 has a pitot tube or laser on the tip of the nose that is absent on the M7+ version.

Actually, I think a black VF-4 would kick @$$.

[Mr March]

What I say is in no way absurd when sticking to canon. Again, this "it could exist" rationalization is another go nowhere argument ad infinitum. From such a premise there is no limit to what "could be" in the Macross universe. When trying to unify facts into a cohesive theory we don't pull the blatantly unofficial out of thin air or damn what little evidence exists in favor of our own opinion. It may not be a VF-14 pre-M3, it may not be a variable fighter at all, it may not be a lot of things as we find ourselves once again heading down that ridiculous road of endless speculation that is getting us nowhere except to perpetuate an argument over a silly difference of opinion! However, it is far less likely a VF-4 and far more likely a VF-14 as I and others have clearly stated with the majority of official evidence we have on hand.

Also, let's drop the character assassination. There's no need to drag my website into this, play veiled threats of diminishing respect nor try begging sympathy from the crowd by some faux concession that "makes me happy". This has been a fine debate of opinion up until this point. And for the record, I was enjoying myself.

Regardless, officially it's not a VF-14, a VF-4 and nor any other plane in Macross made up until 1994. But if I had to state an opinion, it's design strongly resembles the VF-14 seen in Macross 7 Plus (Episode 32).

Edited October 20, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

Also, let's drop the character assassination. There's no need to drag my website into this, play veiled threats of diminishing respect nor try begging sympathy from the crowd by some faux concession that "makes me happy". This has been a fine debate of opinion up until this point. And for the record, I was enjoying myself.

I haven't lost any respect for you, nor am I making threats of that or any sort, my concessions are not faux, I don't care if they make you happy or not, I'm fine with your opinion that it could be a VF-14 or is more likely to be a VF-14 than a VF-4 even if you'd rather argue than respect my opinion that it looks like a badly drawn VF-4. I'm also not saying, as you seem to think, that there was or was not a black VF-4. And maybe I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, but I'm reading your comments to mean that it is canon that there is no black VF-4, and I still think that particular notion is absurd. You're absolutely correct to say that there's no canon black VF-4, but there is NO canonical information on the paintjobs of more than a handful of the nearly 8500 VF-4s produced. You can't say a black VF-4 doesn't exist, you can only say that we haven't seen one.

[Mr March]

Well, like I said, I'm still not clear what all that baggage means or why my website was even brought into this debate. But in the interests of moving on amicably I'll just say fair enough. I think it's also important to clarify I do respect your opinion to interpret the black mystery aircraft as a VF-4, regardless of my own opinion or why I think that way. As for black VF-4's, "you can't say a black VF-4 doesn't exist, you can only say that we haven't seen one" is - with all due respect - about as contradictory a statement as it gets using any official benchmark. I will agree that as fans, we can speculate and even daydream how fantastic a black VF-4 would be and that it may be reasonable to assume it exists. But at the end of the day, a black VF-4 most certainly doesn't exist in Macross precisely because it's never been seen. And unlike toilets (gawd, I feel REALLY silly right now) a black VF-4 is not a necessary assumption the audience must make for the Macross universe to be a fully functional fictional construct (say three times real fast!)

Regardless, here's something to help move my thread back into a more positive direction; I've created a black VF-4 custom color picture for you (using the VF-17 colors as a template). It isn't necessarily final and perhaps some details/colors could be changed/improved, but I hope you like it.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Mr March

[Sumdumgai]

Oh man, if Yamato makes a VF-4 toy, they have to use this scheme!

We can call it the Mr March scheme.

[mikeszekely]

I kinda see what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that we have a canon source that says that nearly 8500 VF-4s were produced. We've only see a handful in canon productions (two or three Skull Squadron in Flashback, a red and white one in the first VF-X, and red one and a blue one in M3). Even if we say some of the ones produced were replacements for Skull, the pilot in VF-X, Max, and Milia... even if we go to an extreme and say that covers 425, that still leaves 8000 VF-4s unaccounted for, with no canonical source for how they were colored, so we can speculate that some may have been black or none may have been black, but you can't definitively say that there were or weren't. With that in mind, when faced with what might be a black VF-4 in a canon production, you can say that the nacelles look more like a VA-14, you can say that the stabilizers are too angled, and you can say that the canards are too small to logically argue that it isn't a VF-4. But without a canonical source to say there were no black VF-4s, "It's not a VF-4 because it's black" isn't the strongest argument. I mean, you can argue that there are no red Jamming Birds, because the only canon Jamming Birds were on Macross 7, and they were all blue and gray. But with so many canon VF-4s unaccounted for, saying "there are no black VF-4s" is a much fan speculation as "there are black VF-4s." Zero black VF-4s isn't a necessary fan assumption, either when only a handful of a canon number have been seen; after all, they have to be some color, and there's no reason why some of them couldn't be black.

In any case, I do feel like we're quibbling over a minor detail. The "excess baggage" and bringing up your website wasn't intended to be character assassination; I was just trying to make it clear that I have deep respect for you to separate you from your comment so that when I criticized the comment it wouldn't be personal. Unfortunately, doing so seemed to have the opposite effect, and for that, I am truly sorry. Please accept my apology; no offense was meant, and I will strive for greater clarity in the future.

In any case, I do really like your black VF-4. The only suggestion I would make is that the red on the stabilizers should probably be a dull yellow if it's a squad leader, or gray-blue if it'd be Dick or Morry's (the same yellow and blue that's in the Diamond Force insignia, actually). Then again, the red does look good, and you did say that you were only using Diamond Force as a template.

Hmm... that's an interesting notion, actually. We know that the Skull squadron remained even as members came and went, and we know they upgraded from VF-1s to VF-4s. Purely the stuff of fan speculation, but maybe Diamond Force predated the Macross 7 fleet. Personally, I doubt it; going from the sudden formation of Emerald Force when they started adding VF-19's to the fleet, mineral-themed squads seem like something they were cooking up within their little fleet. (Kinda makes you wonder what kind of porn-obsessed officer gave us the Pick Peckers). But if Diamond Force was an older squadron, that at one time flew VF-4s, that'd be my suggestion. The stabilizers would be trimmed with blue or yellow, and of course the Jolly Roger would be replaced with the Diamond Force triangles.

[Sumdumgai]

Actually on the topic of M7 and VF-4s. If I remember correctly, the M7 fleet did have VF-4s at one time. In Macross 7 Trash (if you consider it cannon), that ex-pilot-woman was training under Miria in a VF-4 when there was an accident. I don't remember if they were only using them for training purposes or if they still hadn't finished switching to the VF-11 as the main variable fighter (although at least 8 years had passed since the VF-11 started mass production by the time the M7 fleet launched in 2038).

Supposedly the Macross 5 colony fleet had VA-14s. I have to go back and watch through the episode where Basara goes through the Macross 5 investigating to see if there's any VA/VF-14-ish fighters in the hangar bay (crap, I'm missing that episode).

Edited October 20, 2007 by Sumdumgai

[Mr March]

Well, like I've said mike, it's really hard to come to any definitive conclusion with such wild speculation. Proceeding from the anything possible premise one could argue there's a VF-4 in pink with yellow polka dots somewhere in the 8425 number and technically no one could disprove something that doesn't exist. Kinda like god

At any rate, I'm going to move past this particular debate. No hard feelings and thanks for your understanding. I'm glad you liked the picture.

Oh man, if Yamato makes a VF-4 toy, they have to use this scheme!

We can call it the Mr March scheme.

*EDIT*

Actually on the topic of M7 and VF-4s. If I remember correctly, the M7 fleet did have VF-4s at one time. In Macross 7 Trash (if you consider it cannon), that ex-pilot-woman was training under Miria in a VF-4 when there was an accident. I don't remember if they were only using them for training purposes or if they still hadn't finished switching to the VF-11 as the main variable fighter (although at least 8 years had passed since the VF-11 started mass production by the time the M7 fleet launched in 2038).

Supposedly the Macross 5 colony fleet had VA-14s. I have to go back and watch through the episode where Basara goes through the Macross 5 investigating to see if there's any VA/VF-14-ish fighters in the hangar bay (crap, I'm missing that episode).

Hehehe, I'm honored

I'm not sure if Macross 7 Trash is considered canon for the continuity. Anyone else know? I don't recall seeing the VF-14 in Macross 7 until episode 32, the the added feature "Macross 7 Plus" that plays after the episode. I only recall the appearance of VF-11s inside the Macross 5 fleet.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Mr March

[Sumdumgai]

Yeah, I only recalled VF-11s inside the Macross 5 fleet too. But, I thought it was possibly I missed something. I'm constantly discovering things I missed, so I thought there was a tiny possibility there could have been something in the background.

[Mr March]

***EDIT***

Just went through episode 26 to double check. VF-11's only.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

I don't think Trash was considered canon, but please don't quote me on that. I do remember the one girl in it used to be a VF-4 pilot, but I don't know if she flew the VF-4 before or after joining the Macross 7 fleet.

EDIT: The second chapter of the first volume begins with the character Mahara having a flashback to a time when she was training in a VF-4, and Milia ordered the trainees back before training was up. One of the VF-4s exploded, apparently due to sabotage. This may have taken place prior to the Macross 7 fleet's departure from Earth; there's nothing to indicate when the event took place aside from Milia's rank as Colonel. It's the only volume I have, so I don't know if it comes up again or not.

Well, like I've said mike, it's really hard to come to any definitive conclusion with such wild speculation.

Considering that we've seen black VA-14s, VF-17s, and at least one black VF-22 (although I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Gamlin's not the only member of Diamond Force with a black VF-22), I wouldn't call the idea of a squadron that used black VF-4s wild speculation, but definitely speculation. I've always conceded that, and I'm not trying to prove that there were by saying you can't disprove it. And as crazy as a pink Valkyrie with yellow polka dots is, we've already seen some pretty fugly VF-1s in Macross 7, as well as pink VF-11s. Pink VF-4s with yellow polka dots (go ahead and color that one!) are a possibility, sure. All I'm saying is that with so many canon VF-4s known to exist, without any details, saying that none of them are black is still in the realm of speculation. You can't state as a fact that VF-4's aren't black.

To put it another way, you can't go to the mall, ask two people if they like tacos, have them both reply that they do, and then state as fact that everyone in the mall likes tacos.

Edited October 20, 2007 by mikeszekely

[vermillion01]

pink with yellow polka dots...LOL.. a Mr Blobby (if you're not from the UK, you wont understand) VF-4. Now thats sick.

*runs off to throw up at the mere thought*

Personally guys, i dont think there should be any debate over colours of valks that exist in the Macross universe as we know most are mass produced and used in a variety of roles that we never actually see. Its silly to argue back and forth over an issue that has no answer, so there is no right or wrong!

If you want a black VF-4, you have one. Isnt it better to use ones imagination and we can all say that its ok, because there is no official reference to it doesnt mean it cant exist. (look at the F-117 nighthawk... 20 years ago it "never existed" but it did!) If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around...etc etc.

[yellowlightman]

Kawamori was the Director of Mac Plus thus, to further Sketchley's position, had the final say in what was animated, not the animator.

If he choose to put a VF-4 there then that's what was done, if it was to be another aircraft, then that was done.

Pretty basic...

Actually, Shinichiro Watanabe was the Director of Macross Plus. Kawamori was the Chief Director, and likely had a less hands-on involvement compared to Watanabe.

[sketchley]

Question: who created the background art? TIAS:M+ ME (pg. 83-89) has quite a few B&W line art for what became the backgrounds in the animation. They fall into 3 catagories, from most to least: Miyatake Kazutaka, illegible author (one or two of them look like an extremely sloppily written 河, the first kanji of Kawamori Shouji), and unsigned or cropped to exclude the signature (over half of what could be Kawamori-san's signatures are partially cropped as well.)

In addition, the storyboarding of the action sequences for episode 2 (of M+) are consistent with the storyboarding Kawamori-san did for the opening of VF-X2 (M+: Game Edition Pg 72-82; & M-VF-X2 CORCF Pg 97-105). Which lend credibility to the assertation that Kawamori-san was directly responsible for not only the inclusion of the black fighters in the background, but also their specific shape and appearance.

There are also some other canon colours for the VF-4 (TIAS:M+ pg 88-89)

SVF-184 Iron Chiefs: light grey with a white underbelly and a twany nose. The Iron Chiefs originally flew the VF-1 and were on (or were slated to be on) the SDF-2.

SVMF-42 Blue Pheonix: Dark gret with a dark blue nose and dark blue and white tails. The Blue Pheonix are part of the UNS Marines and have anti-glare (paint.)

SVF-95 White Rock: white, with a black on the upper fuselage leading to the cockpit, and light blue leading from it, and including the tails. They where based at New Miramar, and from 2030, they switched to the VF-11.

VAT-127: dark and light brown desert camo. They are an aggressor squadron. What's noteworthy is their squadron insignia is a Regult in a targeting retricle.

Prior to the VF-17, there are no all-black VF colours. Though, this doesn't confirm that there is or is not. The closest to all black is:

SVF-212 Black Knights: Dark blue with black hights, and matt black FAST packs (both dorsal and nacelle packs.) The ensignia is the horse chess piece in a yellow circle surrounded by a thin red line. (If I read it correctly, the ensignia on the CAG's VF is surrounded by a white, not red, line.) They were based on ARMD-3 "Enterprise", and because of that, they have "Big E" stenciled on their gun pods.

Edited October 21, 2007 by sketchley

[mikeszekely]

Question: who created the background art? TIAS:M+ ME (pg. 83-89) has quite a few B&W line art for what became the backgrounds in the animation. They fall into 3 catagories, from most to least: Miyatake Kazutaka, illegible author (one or two of them look like an extremely sloppily written 河, the first kanji of Kawamori Shouji), and unsigned or cropped to exclude the signature (over half of what could be Kawamori-san's signatures are partially cropped as well.)

In addition, the storyboarding of the action sequences for episode 2 (of M+) are consistent with the storyboarding Kawamori-san did for the opening of VF-X2 (M+: Game Edition Pg 72-82; & M-VF-X2 CORCF Pg 97-105). Which lend credibility to the assertation that Kawamori-san was directly responsible for not only the inclusion of the black fighters in the background, but also their specific shape and appearance.

There are also some other canon colours for the VF-4 (TIAS:M+ pg 88-89)

SVF-184 Iron Chiefs: light grey with a white underbelly and a twany nose. The Iron Chiefs originally flew the VF-1 and were on (or were slated to be on) the SDF-2.

SVMF-42 Blue Pheonix: Dark gret with a dark blue nose and dark blue and white tails. The Blue Pheonix are part of the UNS Marines and have anti-glare (paint.)

SVF-95 White Rock: white, with a black on the upper fuselage leading to the cockpit, and light blue leading from it, and including the tails. They where based at New Miramar, and from 2030, they switched to the VF-11.

VAT-127: dark and light brown desert camo. They are an aggressor squadron. What's noteworthy is their squadron insignia is a Regult in a targeting retricle.

Prior to the VF-17, there are no all-black VF colours. Though, this doesn't confirm that there is or is not. The closest to all black is:

SVF-212 Black Knights: Dark blue with black hights, and matt black FAST packs (both dorsal and nacelle packs.) The ensignia is the horse chess piece in a yellow circle surrounded by a thin red line. (If I read it correctly, the ensignia on the CAG's VF is surrounded by a white, not red, line.) They were based on ARMD-3 "Enterprise", and because of that, they have "Big E" stenciled on their gun pods.

That's some really interesting info, thanks for posting sketchley! Sadly, it seems that the squadrons with the cool paint jobs and insignias don't get animated. Man, I really wish I had some of the TIAS books, but I just don't have the time/money/energy to track them down anymore.

[Zinjo]

There are also some other canon colours for the VF-4 (TIAS:M+ pg 88-89)

SVF-184 Iron Chiefs: light grey with a white underbelly and a twany nose. The Iron Chiefs originally flew the VF-1 and were on (or were slated to be on) the SDF-2.

SVMF-42 Blue Pheonix: Dark gret with a dark blue nose and dark blue and white tails. The Blue Pheonix are part of the UNS Marines and have anti-glare (paint.)

SVF-95 White Rock: white, with a black on the upper fuselage leading to the cockpit, and light blue leading from it, and including the tails. They where based at New Miramar, and from 2030, they switched to the VF-11.

VAT-127: dark and light brown desert camo. They are an aggressor squadron. What's noteworthy is their squadron insignia is a Regult in a targeting retricle.

Prior to the VF-17, there are no all-black VF colours. Though, this doesn't confirm that there is or is not. The closest to all black is:

SVF-212 Black Knights: Dark blue with black hights, and matt black FAST packs (both dorsal and nacelle packs.) The ensignia is the horse chess piece in a yellow circle surrounded by a thin red line. (If I read it correctly, the ensignia on the CAG's VF is surrounded by a white, not red, line.) They were based on ARMD-3 "Enterprise", and because of that, they have "Big E" stenciled on their gun pods.

I'm glad someone brought up the color schemes displayed in TIAS:M+.

There is another squadron listed in that book that "may" have had VF-4's in it's history and their color scheme may not have been black, but was a navy blue, they being the SVF-411 Blue Lancers. The book shows that color scheme on VF-11s, but we know that VF-4 were one of the predecessors to the VF-11s.

Now if that book is considered a canon source, then there are several "canon" color schemes that have not been animated in the Macross Universe, as of yet.

How color schemes from B-club, Hobby Japan, and Hobby Graphix fit into canon, (if at all) is another matter.

[Mr March]

Here are the VF-4 color schemes that have been mentioned for This Is Animation Special Macross Plus:

I'm uncertain how these color schemes fit into the Macross universe nor if they are canon. I don't think it hurts to have them included. I did use the VF-17T color scheme in the TIAS book for the VF-17T Trainer profile on my website, since the white and orange colors seen in that book are the only semi-official picture of a VF-17T (this is excluding the VF-17T Custom from Macross 7).

I also remade the VF-4 "Nightmare" colors using a shadowless VF-4 scan from Shoji Kawamori's Macross Design Works. I think it looks a little better and provides more of a clear silhouette.

[Sumdumgai]

The VAT-127 scheme is pretty cool. I like your Mr March VF-4 re-do, Mr March! It's very clean and crisp.

[Mr March]

Thanks! It's a new scan; much better than the old scan (which has a few scan errors). I'm going to apply a new scan to the VF-4 fighter standard colors and I'm going to include a shadowless VF-4 original as well. I stick it in the next update.

I'm probably going to color the VF-4 in that two-tone brown VAT-127 color scheme as well. I like it so much, especially they way it unifies the whole craft in a single motif. One thing I don't like about the standard VF-4 hull paint is the odd patchwork-like combination of colors. The VAT-127 scheme melds the beige sections, off-white stabilizer flaps and semi-recessed missiles into the brown color scheme. It makes the VF-4 look smoother and not so messy; not to mention the brown colors are very unique in Macross.

I'm eventually going to have to make a separate section on my website just for custom color schemes and fan color creations. I've got a few kicking around my hard drive and I keep making more on the odd occasion (like the black VF-4). I definitely want them posted online for fans to enjoy.

[Exsedol]

Hmmm I think the SVF-184 scheme looks more UN Spacy style but the VAT 127 is just cool looking. I especially like the battlepod/crosshairs ensignea I also like how the SVMF-42 shows an alternate branch scheme for the Marines.

[mikeszekely]

I'm eventually going to have to make a separate section on my website just for custom color schemes and fan color creations. I've got a few kicking around my hard drive and I keep making more on the odd occasion (like the black VF-4). I definitely want them posted online for fans to enjoy.

That'll be great, especially if you have uncolored lineart available for the fans to color. I know I'd like to try my hand at a few, but I don't know if I want to get Photoshop over it. Photoshop's kind of expensive, isn't it? BTW, do you do your work on a Mac or PC? I have both; if I decided to go for it, I'd want to go for the better one.

[Mr March]

Exsedol

Throughout the 16 pages of color squadron colors there are numerous branches of the UN Forces shown to have variable fighters. They have branches for the UN Navy, UNS Air Force and UNS Marines. You'll note the Macross Compendium specifically designates the various variable fighters with belonging to various branches. It's a nice added touch of detail.

mike

Photoshop CS is expensive, but it is very powerful software. I've used both PC and Mac versions of Photoshop and aside from visual presentation (and the differences in Mac/PC interfaces) I can't tell the difference. Both appear to have identical functionality and I've never had a problem with either. If you're familiar with one and switch to the other, it's a breeze. All the work done on the Macross Mecha Manual is done with Photoshop CS on my PC (including running a scanner, yes that's right, Photoshop operates my Canoscan scanner natively with no lame-assed third party software required).

Edited October 23, 2007 by Mr March

[mikeszekely]

mike

Photoshop CS is expensive, but it is very powerful software. I've used both PC and Mac versions of Photoshop and aside from visual presentation (and the differences in Mac/PC interfaces) I can't tell the difference. Both appear to have identical functionality and I've never had a problem with either. If you're familiar with one and switch to the other, it's a breeze. All the work done on the Macross Mecha Manual is done with Photoshop CS on my PC (including running a scanner, yes that's right, Photoshop operates my Canoscan scanner natively with no lame-assed third party software required).

I think maybe I'll look into the PC version, then; maybe I can find an older version at a Half-Priced Books, and only the newest Mac version is a Universal Binary. Have you used different software versions? Are there big changes in CS3?

OT rant, why do companies charge so much for software? People complain that the PS3 was too much when they were charging $600 for it, but I noticed that Photoshop CS3 Standard is $650, and the Creative Suite 3 Master Edition is $2500. I don't know about you, but if I'm paying more for software than for the hardware I'm running it on, it better cure cancer or something. Seriously, maybe people would pirate less software if the companies making it charged a fair price for it. That's one of the reasons my Windows computer is still running XP, but I plan picking up Leopard for my MacBook on Friday.

[Nied]

I'm eventually going to have to make a separate section on my website just for custom color schemes and fan color creations. I've got a few kicking around my hard drive and I keep making more on the odd occasion (like the black VF-4). I definitely want them posted online for fans to enjoy.

Actually I've been meaning to ask if you had any plans of putting some high res-scans of the TIAS M+ color schemes up on M3. I have some old scans of those schemes lying around on my hard drive but they're pretty low resolution and whoever scanned them cranked up the JPEG compression pretty high. Translations of the descriptions of those squadrons would just be icing on that cake.